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f13.net  |  f13.net General Forums  |  The Gaming Graveyard  |  Game Design/Development  |  Topic: Stealth classes in PvP MMO games 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
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Author Topic: Stealth classes in PvP MMO games  (Read 24341 times)
Sairon
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Reply #70 on: June 18, 2006, 11:59:50 AM

If a game were to use the class system described in this thread, togheter with land controlled end game ala shadowbane for example, then stealth could fit another role entirely. The stealth class could have no grind at all associated with it, only some unlock mechanism of some sort. The class would have no direct dmg at all, only some saboutage related skills. The gameplay would consist of recon missions and destruction of resources in enemy guild territory. Playing the class wouldn't be your every day activity but it would have it uses. The counter to the class could be structures with true sight, it's something you would try to counter on a building level when you plan your city.
lamaros
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Reply #71 on: July 24, 2006, 10:39:27 PM

Neco Posting, because I care.

Why do they put it in?

Anyone who has ever played Thief knows that stealth is awesome fun. So why do people put it in their games? Because they want to include a class/skill/whatever that has a history of, when done right, being fun and different. Why try and come up with some completely new untried concepts when you know that if you can just get it right having stealth will be fun?

Why does it have an advantage over all other classes?

Because they implement it incorrectly. As the discussion has already shown some games (SB and Tribes seem to be the more agreed upon) have managed to get it right, or get closer to getting it right than others. So obviously it's not inherently flawed.

How do you balance it with the other classes?

Depnds what type of game, but here are some quick (and not especially related) ideas.

Make it not directly combat related. Make it so you cannot attack while stealthed, and have a cooldown timer after using it in which you cannot attack unless attacked first.
Make it so you don't always know if you've been successful. Give it a chance of failure when you try to stealth that is unknowable to you. (So you can only tell if you get someone else to check for you. "Am I stealthed?" "Yeah" "Ok".)
Make it that you can only attack while stealthed if you are standing still.
Make it so you move slower than others while stealthed.

Generally speaking you just have to make it so those with stealth abilities are weaker in other areas (can't heal/have bad armor/bad health/are slow/etc.)
Eg: an Assassin character that has a powerful first attack and some stealth skills, but cannot move fast or remain stealthed once detected (say a mage can cast a spell on them that makes them visible, and attackable, for a certain time time) and have weaker health, so while they are good at sneaky kills but will lose a 1v1 battle if they don't get the drop. That way they are good as assassins - better than others, but not better at everything.

There are plenty of ways to do this, if you want to.

How do you balance it with the NPC?

This is trickier, because it's hard to balance something that is very useful against intelligent characters (PCs) but is just as useful against comparably stupid NPCs. I would think the best way is to balance the PCs first, and then create the NPCs in line with the balanced classes. I think it's much easier to change a NPC so that the player skills work well against it that it is to change the player skills so they work well against both NPCs and other players.

Why is it worth the effort?

For diversity. Different skills leads to different play styles, which means more options for the player to choose and more diversity in the world. This is good and fun.

For example.

We have an assassin class that has high surprise damage, low health, slow stealth movement and the ability to attack while stealthed and immobile. We also have a mage class that has moderate damage, minor healing skills, and useful miscellaneous spells.
If the stealth class wants to kill the mage it has to strike first. It has no range (or at least no high damage surprise attack range), equal or lesser health, and less damage over time. In an up front battle the mage would win because it has better abilities for that type of thing. If the stealth class wants to win it has to get itself in a position where it can strike first, using its stealth to sneak up on the mage. If the Mage notices the assassin before he can strike (maybe he fails a stealth attempt, maybe he gets caught out by a 'reveal hidden' spell, maybe he gets attacked by a NPC with innate detect stealth) then the mage can kill him or get away safely. If the Mage doesn't (perhaps he's distracted in a battle, perhaps he's gone to rest in a unsafe area) then he dies.

People will complain because they're not used to it, but if you get it right they will get over it. Assassins will learn that they are not awesome 'elite' fighters who have the right and the ability to kill whoever they want but instead have to exercise patience and tactical nous, and Mages will realise that they have to make sure they don't put themselves in situations where they are easily targetabe. The Mages who started by say "this is bs, I was just resting after a battle and this assassin just came and one shot killed me" will learn that they have to watch carefully to see if assassins are in the area to begin with, and have to throw out the odd 'detect hidden' if they think they're in trouble, or travel more often in a group. The assassins who complain "this is bs, once i'm stealthed it takes too long to creep up on people and then just when i'm about to kill them they move and then when i finally get to them again someone casts 'detect hidden' and i'm dead" will realise they have to pick their targets carefully and not just rely on stealth as some kind of God mode."

Now of course getting that balance would not just be drop-of-the-hat easy, and would be harder the more classes you have, but it would be possible as long as you recognise that in specific situations real diversity requires imbalance.

Yep. Diversity requires imbalance. Everyone cannot be everthing all the time, and they will complain because they want to be, but they'll just have to suck it up. People will complain about something no matter what.

And anyone who doesn't think that having diverse play styles on offer adds anything to a game.. well.. no one thinks that, otherwise we wouldn't have different classes to begin with.
geldonyetich
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Reply #72 on: July 27, 2006, 04:14:48 PM

From a game design standpoint, I've a very simple reason I'd want to put stealth in a MMOG:  Your monitor is right in front of you.  Bob in Switzerland's monitor is over there, some several hundred miles away. Stealth has a potential to work for this game given your hardware setup. (Now, don't be an idiot and broadcast things that Bob's client shouldn't know from your server, because Bob may be a cheating bastard that uses a packet sniffer.)

Hardware reasons aside, stealth offers a bit of excitement and surprise that zests up any game, and you've no good reason to pass that up in an online environment.

As for it pissing you off in PvP, there's a little lesson of game design that developers would be wise to follow in the ways of PvP:
"For every Player versus Player offense, there should be an equal and opposite defense."
In other words, stealth shouldn't give anybody a massive unbeatable advantage, especially against players who are playing well.  If you're a good player, and the stealther is a good player, I want to see an even match.

You've come here and start a threat saying "Why are developers so dumb to include stealth?!"   I think what you should be asking is "Why are these specific developers so dumb as to not include the proper countermeasures for stealth?!"
« Last Edit: July 27, 2006, 04:17:05 PM by geldonyetich »

Sairon
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Reply #73 on: July 28, 2006, 02:22:17 AM

I don't see how you can implement stealth class with dmg in a way that doesn't open up a truckload of possibilities for griefing. The only way I can see is making it a class which can't affect another player in a negative way ( healer for example ).
lamaros
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Reply #74 on: July 29, 2006, 05:35:21 AM

You know, as far as discussions go, it helps to read others opinions every now and then and not just say stuff without regard to those who are prepared to actually discuss the topic in a reasonable manner. At the very least, if you're not going to read and consider what others have said, at least express yourself in a way that isn't just "This is what I think." Please add in the "and here's way:"
Sairon
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Reply #75 on: July 29, 2006, 03:26:26 PM

You know, as far as discussions go, it helps to read others opinions every now and then and not just say stuff without regard to those who are prepared to actually discuss the topic in a reasonable manner. At the very least, if you're not going to read and consider what others have said, at least express yourself in a way that isn't just "This is what I think." Please add in the "and here's way:"

Huh? Where can I read about this rule that I can't comment if I don't have the solution to the problem?

That Assassin class you described is the type of character that will never get a group, and still have all the griefing problems that comes with stealth. If detect hidden is a buff which you can easily keep up, then you might as well scrap the Assassin class. If detect hidden is a pbaoe spell which reveals stealthed people nearby, then it's useless. You can't expect people to run around and spam a spell all day because there might be an Assassin nearby, you know, the Assassin won't exactly wave his hands when he's nearby. Another counter you propose is that the mage should travel in groups, well that's shitty design right there.
Strazos
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Reply #76 on: August 01, 2006, 07:34:00 PM

One thing I never got is why stealth classes have to impart invisibility - sneaking up on someone while invisible is neither stealthy or skilled.

How about using camo or the "predator" effect (as in EQ2, sort of)? Also, devs should make more use of audio/visual clues if they're going to allow stealth in a PvP setting - footprints in soft surfaces, noises from moving equipment, grass/bushes being moved aside, etc etc.

I've always liked the idea of stealth classes, but the implementation usually sucks.

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geldonyetich
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Reply #77 on: August 01, 2006, 08:16:55 PM

Planetside infiltrators are an example of pretty good balance of stealth.  The infiltrator suit itself prevents you from using anything bigger than a pistol.  You're completely invisible when stopped or walking in a crawl.  You're slightly visible walking upright (which is faster than in a crawl).  You're very visible when running.  Your opponents can voluntarily choose to use one of their few implant slots to take Darklight which can detect stealthers in a small radius around them, however having the implant enabled drains the same energy pool they need to run and jump.  Like the stealther, an opponent with darklight can sit indefinately, the darklight's cost being slightly less than the sitting still crouched energy regeneration.

Are infiltrators nerfed to the point of uselessness?  No, although it takes a good player to use them effectively.  Are infiltrators overpowered?  No, but you will get ganked by them from time to time.  Do infiltrators have a use?  Yes, in addition to sneaking in and harassing key members of the opposite side, they can do things like hack terminals or heal enemy faction members.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2006, 04:16:58 PM by geldonyetich »

Trippy
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Reply #78 on: August 01, 2006, 08:31:35 PM

Inflitrators can also carry EMP grenades (taking up some of their very precious inventory space) that will temporarily knock out implants such as Darklight. So even the stealth counters have counters in that game. You can also hear them when they are switching weapons and the like. In other words the stealth gameplay in PlanetSide was very well thought out.
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