If you were 17 in 1992...

[Merusk]

Usually the answer to "why can't I find a good man?" is "you aren't looknig for one."

It's hard to look for a good man when there's something in your eye.

We so need a rimshot emoticon. That was classic.

most women who work in it are victims of childhood molestation

Also, 24% may be high, though I'm not entirely sure. However, 24% is hardly most women who work in pr0n.

When I took my human sexuality course in college, some 10 years ago now, I was given the statistic that between 50-70% of all women will suffer some form of molestation or unwanted fondling during their lifetime.  If this is accurate, then the number molested in porn isn't that far off from the number molested in any other segment of socieity.  Scary shit when you're raising a daughter.

[Cheddar]

I agree Merusk.  Not a good statistic, but a large part of it is parents not parenting.  Did not mean to get all flamey earlier, I hope you people can forgive me one day.  I sent the individual an apology.

[Shockeye]

Usually the answer to "why can't I find a good man?" is "you aren't looknig for one."

It's hard to look for a good man when there's something in your eye.

We so need a rimshot emoticon. That was classic.

Request granted!

 

[stray]

Replace the word "blowjobs" with "oral sex", and remove the word "evil" (Why? BECAUSE I DIDN'T USE IT) and then I'll say "Yes".

Not sure if you consciously tried to do it, but that was really twisting my point, man.

Hey hey hey now, you said:

I for one see the former as being completely natural and GOOD, while the latter things to be a perversion of that goodness.

You said "GOOD" in all caps, and then said the latter things are a "perversion of goodness".  It looked to me like a roundabout way of saying "evil", but I retract the word if that's not what you meant.

As for replacing "blowjobs" with "oral sex", I refuse.  If your statement applies to oral sex it applies to blowjobs, because blowjobs are oral sex, and a rose by any other name yada yada.  I used the slightly coarser word because I wanted to remind you subtly that not all people think oral sex is natural and good - in fact, oral sex is generally considered "sodomy" and is technically illegal in several states (though not enforced).

My point is that your notions of what's "good" and what's "perverted" are fairly arbitrary, and you're in no position to accuse other people of being victims of Puritanical repression because they consider a shot to the face to be in the same ballpark as a shot in the mouth (whether they consider both to be good or both to be "perversions of good").  I mean, if you look at it from a geographical standpoint, it's only a few inches of difference, right?  Any "perversion" or "degradation" or other Puritanical expressions of outrage are purely in the eye of the beholder IMO.

Sigh.

The reason why I insist on using the term "oral sex" goes back to my first point. Women and Men can do it. What's so hard to understand about that?

It's not that I have a problem with using the word "blowjob". I have a problem with only using the word "blowjob".

As for "good": It's in the context of the word "natural". In other words, I'm simply saying that sex is a normal and human thing to do. A "good thing" in the frickin' Martha Stewart sense. Not "good" in the "good vs evil" sense.

And don't tell what "position" I'm in, and what I'm allowed or not allowed to accuse people of. IF I wanted to do, I could accuse people of ANYTHING. I could say just about ANYTHING. I'm very much "in the position" to do that. It would make no difference if I was dead wrong or dead right.

Let me make it simple for you:

How about you just "disagree" with me? This isn't a discussion about my "authority" on that matter.

[Pococurante]

(...) most women who work in it are victims of childhood molestation

Also, 24% may be high, though I'm not entirely sure. However, 24% is hardly most women who work in pr0n.

In 1997 the WHO stated 14-20% of all women had been "completedly raped".  Estimates run as high as 1 out of 3 women in the US are "molested".

So basically people are down on an industry that has safer statistics (24%) than open society (33%).  Sounds like rationalization... :P

The "(s)He cheats on me when (s)he consumes porn" is the argument that stands on its own merits.  But it does show the relationship is still in the uphill climb / don't slip mode.

[Fargull]

Holy crap.. this thread has gone to unusuall places.

Background: white non-christian
Region: austin
Culture:  geek

Sexuality between consenting adults is cool with me as long as no one shoots their eye out.. or hurts innocent bystanders.

The US is stupid with political / puritanical bullshit on sex.  Anything kept in the dark will fester and mold.

[Samwise]

Let me make it simple for you:

How about you just "disagree" with me? This isn't a discussion about my "authority" on that matter.

When you say things like:

But since people have been told by centuries long Puritanical thinking that a good thing was a "bad thing", they in turn, lump all bad things with it (but I digress a bit...This is another thread in it's own right).

[edit] And no, I'm not calling any of you Puritans.....But if I understood correctly, then I AM calling you victims of Puritans.

you are setting yourself up as an authority on what other people think and why they think it.  As such, you should expect to be challenged on it.

Also, when you say things like:

Let me make it simple for you:

you're spoilin' for a fight.  I won't oblige you, however.  Go look up WUN, I'm sure he's still lurking around the Intarweb somewhere.   

[HaemishM]

Usually the answer to "why can't I find a good man?" is "you aren't looknig for one."

It's hard to look for a good man when there's something in your eye.

We so need a rimshot emoticon. That was classic.

Request granted!

 

You are a god among insects.

[stray]

you're spoilin' for a fight.  I won't oblige you, however.  Go look up WUN, I'm sure he's still lurking around the Intarweb somewhere.   

I'm not looking for a fight. Really I'm not. No matter what subject or thread, the only time you'll ever see me get heated is when I'm misunderstood. I don't care when someone disagrees with me, so long as they're disagreeing with "me", and not what they think is me. I just like people to know where I stand and leave it at that -- I feel no pressing need or obligation to convert the world to my viewpoints (once they understand them).

But now that you do know where I'm coming from (partly at least), I'm going to laugh my way through the rest of this thread. Just like any other. I don't give much of a shit about anything written here to get into fights with people.

[voodoolily]

I agree Merusk.  Not a good statistic, but a large part of it is parents not parenting.  Did not mean to get all flamey earlier, I hope you people can forgive me one day.  I sent the individual an apology.

It's true, he did. Here it is:

« Sent to: voodoolily on: Today at 04:12:04 PM »     

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I hope you die.





-Cheddar

In 1997 the WHO stated 14-20% of all women had been "completedly raped".  Estimates run as high as 1 out of 3 women in the US are "molested".

So basically people are down on an industry that has safer statistics (24%) than open society (33%).  Sounds like rationalization... :P

The "study" that that statistic came from was criticized (by me) for not giving the sample size or sampling non-sex workers as a control. I still think that women who've been molested have a higher propensity for going into sex work than non-molested women, for the simple fact that they're already accustomed to being fucked by people who have no business fucking them. There are some stats for prostitutes, but I think there's a distinction in that porn "actresses" aren't putting themselves in the same kind of danger that street sex workers do.

Another flaw with the stat given (24%) is that many sex workers are aware of the link between childhood violence and chosen career paths, and in defiance may lie on a survey. Many sex workers want to believe (or may actually believe) that they like what they do and are in total control, and resent the notion that they don't really have a choice.

[Margalis]

When I took my human sexuality course in college, some 10 years ago now, I was given the statistic that between 50-70% of all women will suffer some form of molestation or unwanted fondling during their lifetime.  If this is accurate, then the number molested in porn isn't that far off from the number molested in any other segment of socieity.  Scary shit when you're raising a daughter.

Welcome to bullshit feminist stats 101.

70% of women will suffer from molestation or unwanted fondling? How much of that is molestation, and how much of that is unwanted fondling? I'm surprised it's only 70% - I would have guessed 95%.

95% of women will be raped or have their ass grabbed at some point in their life...ooh scary!

See the problem? Molestation and "unwanted fondling" are VERY different. Lumping them together is a scare tactic.

[voodoolily]

There's also the date-rape issue, where a girl wakes up and regrets having fucked some guy, so charges date rape. This skews data. I think Paglia really nails the date "rape" issue for me, so I won't go into it.

[Margalis]

In 1997 the WHO stated 14-20% of all women had been "completedly raped".  Estimates run as high as 1 out of 3 women in the US are "molested".

So basically people are down on an industry that has safer statistics (24%) than open society (33%).  Sounds like rationalization... :P

You can't compare results like that across different studies!

That said, common sense tells us that sex industry workers are more likely to be sexually abused as children. You don't need a study to point out the obvious - just go watch reruns of Howard Stern.

[Samwise]

But now that you do know where I'm coming from (partly at least).

Actually, the more I reread your last few posts the more confused I get.  I should probably stop before I forget something important like where my chair is.

[stray]

But now that you do know where I'm coming from (partly at least).

Actually, the more I reread your last few posts the more confused I get.  I should probably stop before I forget something important like where my chair is.

I'm on some medicine that's making my head spin. Maybe it's affecting my ability to be coherent. But here goes again:

"Blowjob" is only half of what "oral sex" conveys.

"Evil" is not the only opposite of good. The word Good can be used in more than one context (or did you not know that?). What's so hard to understand about someone saying "Sex is a GOOD and natural thing"?

Good as in "one of the good things in life". Good as in Apple Pie. Good as in......

Damnit. To hell with it. Stay confused.

[Samwise]

So if A is an element of S and proposition X is true for all elements in S then proposition X is not necessarily true for A?

At least now we're talking logic instead of stat (bleh).  Unfortunately, I have just misplaced my chair.

[stray]

Geez man, I'm just saying that I don't care to exclusively use the term "Blow jobs" when referring to Oral Sex. It has nothing to do with excluding blow jobs out of the definition of "oral sex". It's just that blowjobs are only a part of it.

I don't get it. Why is that hard to understand?

 

[MrHat]

8----------->

Look, I made a penis.

Edit for Stray: ( . Y . ) boobs so you don't get upset about only 1 facet of it.

Double edit:  How do I make a titjob show up in ASCII?

[Samwise]

Let S be "oral sex".
Let A be "blowjobs".  Blowjobs are a subset of "oral sex".
Let X be "oral sex is good", or "S is good".
Let Y be "blowjobs are good", or "A is good".

X -> Y.  Yes?

[stray]

Rundown:

The conversation turned towards "facial cumshots" (or something!) and whether one should feel bad for requesting them.

Somewhere along the way, someone made a point that "since a couple is already having sex and sucking on body parts, then a guy shouldn't feel repressed about asking if he could cum on a chick's face" (or something to that effect).

I stepped in and said "One is not the other". Basically. According to my definition, having sex and sucking on body parts is a two sided thing (sucking doesn't just entail "blowjobs", which is the ONLY FUCKING REASON why I insist on the term "oral sex" for the sake of my argument).

Now when I define "sex" as being a two sided thing, I'm also saying that cumming on someone's face....Isn't. That's it. That's all. I don't define it as "sex" per se, and just because people are having sex and sucking on each other doesn't necessarily mean cumming on a chick's face is a done deal as well.

So in closing, go fuck yourselves for making me explain that to you.

[Samwise]

So oral sex is two sided, but blowjobs aren't, even though blowjobs are oral sex.  Correct?

I still can't find my chair anywhere.  Damn you.

(Edit) Also, here's a rough ASCII titjob.

   A
(.)|(.)
   |
  o|o

[stray]

Damn you dude.

My insistence on using the term "oral sex" includes BOTH kinds. Going down AND blowjobs. BOTH. Got it?

If I only used the term "blowjobs", then nothing I said in my original point would stand.

If you like math and numbers, then my argument is that

"Sex" = 69

Cumming on someone's face is more of a

4₂

Err..Or something.

[Samwise]

But if your statement applies globally to oral sex, then it should apply specifically to blowjobs as well.  Whether or not you said blowjobs specifically isn't the point.  If you had said specifically mutual oral sex and not oral sex in general, then applying that statement to blowjobs in general would be erroneous, but you said no such thing.

[stray]

I was kind enough to presume that when people hear me say "oral sex" they should know that I'm not excluding any part of it. I don't have to say "oral sex in the 'mutual' sense" because by definition, it already says that. My whole point says that. My whole point was ALL about mutuality. I AM including blowjobs. Just not ONLY blowjobs.

What. The. Fuck.

[Shockeye]

If it wasn't for porn, would anyone ever request giving a facial?

[Samwise]

I AM including blowjobs.

So the proposition "blowjobs are good and natural" is then true, according to you.  Yes?

(edit: Okay, I would normally assume this goes without saying, but: acknowledging that blowjobs are good and natural does not preclude the existence of OTHER good and natural things, including other forms of oral sex that are good and natural.)

[Samwise]

If it wasn't for porn, would anyone ever request giving a facial?

Yes, if for no other reason that someone had to have the idea before it was ever recorded in porn.

I have no doubt that porn popularized it immensely, though.  Of course, I'm sure you could say that for a number of sexual practices and positions.

[stray]

I AM including blowjobs.

So the proposition "blowjobs are good and natural" is then true, according to you.  Yes?

(edit: Okay, I would normally assume this goes without saying, but: acknowledging that blowjobs are good and natural does not preclude the existence of OTHER good and natural things, including other forms of oral sex that are good and natural.)

If it was a world where only "blowjobs" were what was understood as "oral sex" (and nothing else), then

No, it wouldn't be a good and natural thing.

[edit] Don't even reply with something Socratic, man.

[edit] Why?

Because I don't have time for it. Because this isn't a world where only "blowjobs" are what is understood as being "oral sex".

[Samwise]

But in our world (the real world, where I thought we were having this conversation), blowjobs are good and natural.  Correct?

This isn't a trick or anything.  I'm not asking you for some exacting definition that I will proceed to tear to flinders, I'm just asking a yes or no question.  You said you got irritated by people not understanding you, and I'm trying to understand the point on which we disagree.

[stray]

Yes.

[Cheddar]

I thought private messages were supposed to be private. :(  Well unless Schild gets snoopy.  And only stupid people re-enact porn movies in private.  I prefer to make my own.

[Paelos]

I think we should all grab a couple of drinks and finish this conversation in the dark places of the Ironforge Tram.

[Cheddar]

OUR AVATARS ARE DANCING TOGETHER. AWESOME!

[Samwise]

PMs are too much bother, and it's not like this thread was useful anyway.

I am hypnotized by the dancing avatars.

Stray, we're in agreement on blowjobs being good, then.  I already retracted my inference of "evil".  What do we disagree on?

[stray]

What do we disagree on?

Maybe the Puritan thing, but oh well. At least you understood it  .

Apologies for getting angry. Not an excuse, but I've felt like crap all day.