Continuing from WT: A question about online poker

[Mediocre]

I've been playing mostly to gain experience and get free signup bonuses lately.  I played on EmpirePoker for about 8 hours total a couple weeks ago, ended up forty dollars, plus a hundred-dollar signup bonus, and cashed out all my chips including my winnings.

Now, I get a message in my e-mail offering me a second "upload bonus" of 25% if I come back and put more money into the site.


Up until this point, I'd seen plenty of sign-up bonuses, but never a re-upload bonus.  Is it common for online poker sites to offer re-upload bonuses, and if so, is there a specifically good way to get the site to offer it to you?

With so many experienced online players in the WT -- or now F13? :) --community, I figure you guys would be a good source of knowledge on this.

[schild]

Here's a link to the original thread.

http://waterthread.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=23

[WayAbvPar]

Party/Empire seems to offer them every couple of months or so. Pokerstars rarely does. Check link->bonuswhores <-link for a fairly comprehensive list.

[Madman]

Whee...this hand made my night. Also, fuck all you bastards who made me sign up and buy into Poker Stars.

PokerStars Game #343893640:  Hold'em No Limit ($1/$2) - 2004/03/19 - 23:38:50
(ET)
Table 'Drakonia' Seat #7 is the button
Seat 1: Lion6869 ($53 in chips)
Seat 2: JackPlaya ($156.80 in chips)
Seat 3: Rodderz ($237.80 in chips)
Seat 4: Pryde ($139.70 in chips)
Seat 5: TheMadMadman ($113.90 in chips)
Seat 6: mark65 ($100 in chips)
Seat 7: AAORBUST ($253 in chips)
Seat 8: Frozzor ($654.80 in chips)
Seat 9: UsedCarGuy! ($268.30 in chips)
Frozzor: posts small blind $1
UsedCarGuy!: posts big blind $2
mark65: posts big blind $2
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to TheMadMadman [3s 3d]
Lion6869: folds
JackPlaya: folds
Rodderz: folds
Pryde: folds
TheMadMadman: calls $2
mark65: checks
AAORBUST: calls $2
Frozzor: calls $1
UsedCarGuy!: checks
*** FLOP *** [Qs 3h Qh]
Frozzor: checks
UsedCarGuy!: checks
TheMadMadman: bets $2
mark65: folds
AAORBUST: folds
Frozzor: raises $2 to $4
UsedCarGuy!: folds
TheMadMadman: raises $28 to $32
Frozzor: raises $620.80 to $652.80 and is all-in
TheMadMadman: calls $79.90 and is all-in
*** TURN *** [Qs 3h Qh] [As]
*** RIVER *** [Qs 3h Qh As] [2c]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Frozzor: shows [Qc Ks] (three of a kind, Queens)
TheMadMadman: shows [3s 3d] (a full house, Threes full of Queens)
TheMadMadman collected $230.80 from  pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $233.80 | Rake $3
Board [Qs 3h Qh As 2c]
Seat 1: Lion6869 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: JackPlaya folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: Rodderz folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: Pryde folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: TheMadMadman showed [3s 3d] and won ($230.80) with a full house, Threes
full of Queens
Seat 6: mark65 folded on the Flop
Seat 7: AAORBUST (button) folded on the Flop
Seat 8: Frozzor (small blind) showed [Qc Ks] and lost with three of a kind,
Queens
Seat 9: UsedCarGuy! (big blind) folded on the Flop

[WayAbvPar]

Nice pot, Madman. LOVE flopping sets (err, make that boats) and getting action =)

[Madman]

Yeah, I almost folded out when he re-raised off my fairly big (for a $1/$2 table), thinking that however unlikely he had either Q's full of 3's or 4 Q's, but I decided to just say fuck it and see what he had. Needless to say, my heart was beating a little bit fast as the turn and river came out.

Here are a couple more hands, played about 6 hands after that boat. I will paste them in order played. The first hand shown, I have lost 4 bucks since the boat (payed to see a flop and a big blind).  Yes its long, I am lazy, so I am just cut and pasting the whole thing.

*********** # 8 **************
PokerStars Game #343908097:  Hold'em No Limit ($1/$2) - 2004/03/19 - 23:46:40
(ET)
Table 'Drakonia' Seat #4 is the button
Seat 1: Lion6869 ($50 in chips)
Seat 2: JackPlaya ($144.80 in chips)
Seat 3: Rodderz ($234.80 in chips)
Seat 4: Pryde ($169.70 in chips)
Seat 5: TheMadMadman ($226.80 in chips)
Seat 6: mark65 ($82 in chips)
Seat 7: AAORBUST ($275.85 in chips)
Seat 8: Frozzor ($514.90 in chips)
Seat 9: UsedCarGuy! ($264.95 in chips)
TheMadMadman: posts small blind $1
mark65: posts big blind $2
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to TheMadMadman [Ts Ks]
AAORBUST: calls $2
Frozzor: folds
UsedCarGuy!: calls $2
Lion6869: folds
JackPlaya: calls $2
Rodderz: folds
Pryde: folds
TheMadMadman: calls $1
mark65: checks
*** FLOP *** [Kd Ad Th]
TheMadMadman: bets $2
mark65: calls $2
AAORBUST: folds
UsedCarGuy!: calls $2
JackPlaya: calls $2
*** TURN *** [Kd Ad Th] [7s]
TheMadMadman: bets $10
mark65: folds
UsedCarGuy!: calls $10
JackPlaya: calls $10
*** RIVER *** [Kd Ad Th 7s] [2c]
TheMadMadman: bets $10
Pryde said, "2 pair, middle pair, whatever"
UsedCarGuy!: calls $10
JackPlaya: folds
*** SHOW DOWN ***
TheMadMadman: shows [Ts Ks] (two pair, Kings and Tens)
UsedCarGuy!: shows [7c Ac] (two pair, Aces and Sevens)
UsedCarGuy! collected $65 from  pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $68 | Rake $3
Board [Kd Ad Th 7s 2c]
Seat 1: Lion6869 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: JackPlaya folded on the River
Seat 3: Rodderz folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: Pryde (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: TheMadMadman (small blind) showed [Ts Ks] and lost with two pair, Kings
and Tens
Seat 6: mark65 (big blind) folded on the Turn
Seat 7: AAORBUST folded on the Flop
Seat 8: Frozzor folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: UsedCarGuy! showed [7c Ac] and won ($65) with two pair, Aces and Sevens

*********** # 7 **************
PokerStars Game #343910263:  Hold'em No Limit ($1/$2) - 2004/03/19 - 23:47:50
(ET)
Table 'Drakonia' Seat #5 is the button
Seat 1: Lion6869 ($50 in chips)
Seat 2: JackPlaya ($130.80 in chips)
Seat 3: Rodderz ($234.80 in chips)
Seat 4: Pryde ($169.70 in chips)
Seat 5: TheMadMadman ($202.80 in chips)
Seat 6: mark65 ($78 in chips)
Seat 7: AAORBUST ($273.85 in chips)
Seat 8: Frozzor ($514.90 in chips)
Seat 9: UsedCarGuy! ($305.95 in chips)
mark65: posts small blind $1
AAORBUST: posts big blind $2
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to TheMadMadman [9h 9c]
Frozzor: folds
UsedCarGuy!: calls $2
Lion6869: folds
JackPlaya: folds
Rodderz: folds
Pryde: folds
TheMadMadman: raises $8 to $10
mark65: folds
AAORBUST: calls $8
UsedCarGuy!: calls $8
*** FLOP *** [4c Jh 2c]
AAORBUST: checks
UsedCarGuy!: checks
TheMadMadman: bets $10
AAORBUST: calls $10
UsedCarGuy!: folds
*** TURN *** [4c Jh 2c] [Jd]
AAORBUST: checks
TheMadMadman: bets $10
AAORBUST: calls $10
*** RIVER *** [4c Jh 2c Jd] [Ts]
AAORBUST: bets $42
TheMadMadman: calls $42
*** SHOW DOWN ***
AAORBUST: shows [4h 8h] (two pair, Jacks and Fours)
TheMadMadman: shows [9h 9c] (two pair, Jacks and Nines)
TheMadMadman collected $152 from  pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $155 | Rake $3
Board [4c Jh 2c Jd Ts]
Seat 1: Lion6869 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: JackPlaya folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: Rodderz folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: Pryde folded before Flop (didn't bet)

Seat 5: TheMadMadman (button) showed [9h 9c] and won ($152) with two pair, Jacks
and Nines
Seat 6: mark65 (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 7: AAORBUST (big blind) showed [4h 8h] and lost with two pair, Jacks and
Fours
Seat 8: Frozzor folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: UsedCarGuy! folded on the Flop

Poker Stars counts up from the last hand, so that is why the hand numbers are backwards. The first hand I was betting semi-hard on the K/T pairs and UsedCarGuy just followed my lead and took me. The second hand the guy tried to buy me out on the river, but I wasn't falling for it.

[Mediocre]

IMO, on that last hand AAORBUST made some critical mistakes -- should have check-raised when the second jack hit and you came out betting.

Anyone else agree or disagree with that?

Of course, grats on the money wins.

[Madman]

Here is the hand that pissed me off today. I don't think it needs any explination.

Code:

PokerStars Game #344646185:  Hold'em No Limit ($1/$2) - 2004/03/20 - 12:56:23 
(ET)
Table 'Kalchas' Seat #7 is the button
Seat 3: Harpo ($79.95 in chips) 
Seat 4: tress i ess ($37 in chips) 
Seat 5: Mitchell396 ($260.65 in chips) 
Seat 6: pc007 ($69.20 in chips) 
Seat 7: TheMadMadman ($250.95 in chips) 
Seat 8: Fighter ($270.65 in chips) 
Seat 9: Zbabe ($194.30 in chips) 
Fighter: posts small blind $1
Zbabe: posts big blind $2
PupuTupuna: sits out 
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to TheMadMadman [Kc Tc]
Harpo: raises $2 to $4
tress i ess: folds 
Mitchell396: folds 
pc007: folds 
TheMadMadman: calls $4
Fighter: folds 
Zbabe: folds 
*** FLOP *** [Js Qh 8c]
Harpo: bets $6
TheMadMadman: raises $6 to $12
Harpo: calls $6
*** TURN *** [Js Qh 8c] [Ac]
Harpo: checks 
TheMadMadman: bets $20
Harpo: raises $40 to $60
TheMadMadman: calls $40
*** RIVER *** [Js Qh 8c Ac] [Jc]
Harpo: bets $3.95 and is all-in
TheMadMadman: calls $3.95
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Harpo: shows [Jd Ah] (a full house, Jacks full of Aces)
TheMadMadman: mucks hand 
Harpo collected $159.90 from  pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $162.90 | Rake $3 
Board [Js Qh 8c Ac Jc]
Seat 3: Harpo showed [Jd Ah] and won ($159.90) with a full house, Jacks full of 
Aces
Seat 4: tress i ess folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: Mitchell396 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: pc007 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: TheMadMadman (button) mucked [Kc Tc] - a flush, Ace high
Seat 8: Fighter (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 9: Zbabe (big blind) folded before Flop

Shit I didn't even realize I had the flush. I thought I just had the A high straight on the turn.

[Madman]

But this hand later in the day made up for that crappy hand earlier:

Code:

PokerStars Game #345298578:  Hold'em No Limit ($1/$2) - 2004/03/20 - 19:54:11 
(ET)
Table 'Hydra' Seat #7 is the button
Seat 1: Pastoren ($50.60 in chips) 
Seat 3: TheMadMadman ($175.25 in chips) 
Seat 4: FightnIrish ($66.20 in chips) 
Seat 7: ginman44 ($24.50 in chips) 
Seat 8: Frozzor ($323 in chips) 
Seat 9: fladgate ($56 in chips) 
Frozzor: posts small blind $1
fladgate: posts big blind $2
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to TheMadMadman [3d Qd]
Pastoren: folds 
TheMadMadman: calls $2
FightnIrish: folds 
ginman44: raises $4 to $6
Frozzor: calls $5
fladgate: calls $4
TheMadMadman: calls $4
*** FLOP *** [Td 7d 8d]
Frozzor: bets $20
fladgate: folds 
TheMadMadman: raises $20 to $40
ginman44: calls $18.50 and is all-in
Frozzor: calls $20
*** TURN *** [Td 7d 8d] [Qc]
Frozzor: checks 
TheMadMadman: checks 
*** RIVER *** [Td 7d 8d Qc] [3h]
Frozzor: checks 
TheMadMadman: bets $20
Frozzor: raises $50 to $70
TheMadMadman: calls $50
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Frozzor: shows [9h 9d] (a pair of Nines)
TheMadMadman: shows [3d Qd] (a flush, Queen high)
TheMadMadman collected $183 from side pot
ginman44: mucks hand 
TheMadMadman collected $76.50 from main pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $262.50 Main pot $76.50. Side pot $183. | Rake $3 
Board [Td 7d 8d Qc 3h]
Seat 1: Pastoren folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: TheMadMadman showed [3d Qd] and won ($259.50) with a flush, Queen high
Seat 4: FightnIrish folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: ginman44 (button) mucked [Kd Qs] - a pair of Queens
Seat 8: Frozzor (small blind) showed [9h 9d] and lost with a pair of Nines
Seat 9: fladgate (big blind) folded on the Flop

You gotta like that and with the couple small wins I had after that hand it means I am up 259.15 (a total of 359.15) from when I bought into Poker Stars a couple of days ago.

[Abagadro]

I can't believe people are bluff raising for 50 bucks against a flush board. Those games look totally crazy.

I'd get pretty mad if someone was calling out hands like that one guy while action was still pending.

BTW, playing Q3d against a pre-flop raise isn't a very good play.  Seriously -EV.

[Madman]

The guy was talking about the hand before I believe, I know it wasn't about the hand being played. Yeah, the guy who bluff raised is the same one I took for a bunch of money the other night with a flopped boat, that you can see that hand a bit earlier in this thread.

And yeah, normally I wouldn't call a pre-flop raise with the Q3d, but I since I was already in for 2 bucks I figure I might as well be in for 4 more. I consistently see about 50% of the flops as long as I have something semi-decent and nobody has raised pre-flop, at least on a small table. I am sure if I was on a higher blind table, I wouldn't see so many flops.

[Abagadro]

Gotcha. It looked like he was talking about what you may have as you had middle two pair.

Q3s is not a very good hand even for one bet because it is dominated, makes lots of second best hands and you will get trapped for raises with it. I would only play it in very late position after at least 4 limpers. Even then I would probably muck it. It is a trash hand.

If you are seeing the flop 50% of the time, you are playing way too loose. I drool over people that have stats like that in my pokertracker DB.

[Abagadro]

IMO, on that last hand AAORBUST made some critical mistakes -- should have check-raised when the second jack hit and you came out betting.

AAORBUST misplayed every street.  Should have folded pre-flop. Folded on the flop. Folded on the turn and, if still around, check-folded on the river.


It looks like Gus Hansen disease has infected these games. I may have to go over there and check it out.  PS isn't my favorite site, but if these hands are representative, it is a fish pond.

[Murgos]

And yeah, normally I wouldn't call a pre-flop raise with the Q3d...

http://www.posev.com/poker/holdem/strategy/preflop-abdul.html

[Madman]

Well, I have been sitting at the $1/$2 NL tables, so for me if nobody has raised preflop then I will throw in my 2 bucks if I have something interesting. And if I have already put bet the two bucks and someone raises after that then chances are I will fold unless I am holding something decent. I just decided to go with the Q3d after the raise because there had been a few pre-flop raises that ended up not having shit and folding somewhere down the line at that table. It's the same reason I didn't fold out when Frozzor came out raising hard on the river, I had watched him bluff a few times.

Also, just because I pay 2 bucks to see the flop doesn't mean I will go any farther unless everyone checks, I don't go chasing the turn or river. My thinking is that you can't win if you don't play and I think of the 2 bucks as basically an ante.  It is called gambling for a reason. In fact, here is my current stats from poker stars:

402 hands played and saw flop:
 - 37 times out of 55 while in small blind      (67%)
 - 44 times out of 53 while in big blind      (83%)
 - 97 times out of 294 in other positions      (32%)
 - a total of 178 times out of 402      (44%)

 Pots won at showdown - 30 out of 53      (56%)
 Pots won without showdown - 33

So it's a bit under 50% for seeing the flop, but I think I have a pretty good percentage heading into a showdown. I will also freely admit that my showdown percentage is dragged down a little bit from a few cheap 'keep you honest' bets. Overall, I don't think I am doing too bad, although I am sure I could be a bit better too.

[Abagadro]

It is called gambling for a reason


I'm not trying to bust on you man, just talking. But, if you think playing poker is gambling, you have a long way to go to be a good player. Gambling has nothing to do with poker.  

I still think you are playing way too loose, but if that is your style and you don't chase, you can play that way if you do it right. Your variance will be huge though. I'm not all that familiar with him, but from reading that site Abdul's hand rankings are looser than Sklansky (which is fine) but are quite dependent upon position and type of game.  I will ocasionally (although very rarely) call with Q3s late after many limpers because of the implied odds, but it is still a garbage hand.  You will just make lots of second best hands (outkicked on pairs, second or third best flushes, etc) which are very expensive.  Go to twodimes.net and play around with scenarios and you will see how few times it wins against various hands.  Qxs isn't even ranked in Sklasky and Malmouth's rankings in HPFAP. Q8s (as it still has straight possibilities) is a category 7 (second lowest) hand in HPFAP and the lowest they go on a suited card to play with a Q.

402 hands is a tiny, tiny sample.  It looks like you are only VIPing (voluntary putting money in pot) around 35-38 percent (when you include the SB), which is still pretty loose, but much better than 50%.

My VIP is 21.55 percent after 20,262 hands.

[Madman]

I know you aren't busting my chops. I also realize that poker is a bit more than gambling, but you no matter how well you play you are always taking a chance (although sometimes a small chance) and thus it gambling. And especially for me as I consider it mostly entertainment, I don't plan on trying to make a living off of it (although winning just over 250 bucks in 2 days (or about 5-6 hours of gaming) is pretty nice.

I realize that the amount of hands I have played is relatively minor and yeah I did forget that I tend to see a lot of the flops when I am either the big or small blind. So that does inflate the total percentage a bit. I do tend to play the small blind a bit more than I probably should as long as there isn't a raise, again my thinking is I am already in for $1 so I might as well put in the other $1 to see the flop.

I am sure that as long as I stay on low stakes tables, I will always play a bit loose. Hell, I am sure that I would still play a little loose on higher stakes tables, although probably not as loose as a low stakes table. It's just the way I play and yeah I know it will cost me occasionally. I just have to make sure it doesn't cost me all that often.

[Mediocre]

Madman:  If you're serious about playing to win money, I would strongly suggest that you switch to limit hold'em.  No-limit online play can have swings that are literally insane -- even in limit, a swing of 50-100BB's ain't too uncommon for a highly experienced player.

The fact that you've made money, thus far, on no limit is all well and good -- but you must realize, you're on the upside of a trend channel that, over time, you will end up inside of.  Your best bet is to stop playing no-limit now and not look back.

IMO, the best way to make money at low-limit hold'em (.50/1 or 1/2) is to play a very high number of tables at once -- sometimes as many as four or six tables -- and play with only your most premium hands -- maybe adding in low pairs and Axs to mix things up from time to time if your current load isn't too high.  Even playing six tables, sometimes you'll be twiddling your thumbs for a bit, and it's rare you'll be playing more than one or two tables at once.

Tight, aggressive play like this will win you significant sums of money in the long term.

Will you lose a few value bets here and there since you're not watching any individual table quite as closely?  Sure.  There are times when you could have stolen the blinds or wish you had been watching a bit closer to know an individual opponent's style.  But on the whole, these slight negatives are outweighed by the positives of playing many tables tightly and aggressively at once.

[Margalis]

This is half right. You will experience huge swings playing NL, but at the same time it is the quickest way to make money if you are significantly better than your opponents.

I played some NL briefly but it was above my bankroll. I got someone all in with AK and I had KK when the flop was K rag rag, then lost to running clubs for a flush. (The AK wasn't even suited) Lost $30 on that hand. In the long run plays like that would make me ton of money, you just have to have the bankroll to cover it. I didn't. (I mean, I could cover the $30, but it was a signficant part of my bankroll)

Madman:  If you're serious about playing to win money, I would strongly suggest that you switch to limit hold'em.  No-limit online play can have swings that are literally insane -- even in limit, a swing of 50-100BB's ain't too uncommon for a highly experienced player.

[WayAbvPar]

a total of 178 times out of 402 (44%)

Pots won at showdown - 30 out of 53 (56%)

Those numbers scare me. I try to keep my flops seen % between 20-27% (it can run into the low 30s for a session if I catch a lot of cards). IMHO 44% is WAY too loose.

56% of showdowns won is too low as well...you are paying people off all the way to the river 44% of the time! You obviously shouldn't have 100% (since you would only be playing the mortal nuts, and miss getting paid with a lot of hands that were good), but it should be far above 56%- say 75% or more.

I think you would see a decent upswing in your variance and your overall bankroll if you tightened up preflop- this would reduce your flop seen % (obviously), and would likely also raise your showdowns won %- if you quit seeing flops with hands that are likely to be 2nd best when they hit (like Q3s), then you won't be around to pay the guys who are playing AQ or AXs off on the river with your bad kicker or 3rd best flush.

As for Sklansky v Abdul- I think Sklansky is much better for inexperienced players. It is better to start a little too tight, and learn to loosen up with experience than to go the other way around. I don't strictly play Sklansky's hand groupings any longer because I have a solid understanding of what I can play and when I can play it (and can adjust to the current table mood on the fly). I tend to play a bit tighter than Abdul likes, but I am definitely looser than Sklansky (more because of online game conditions than anything).

If you don't have it yet, download the demo for Poker Tracker (www.pokertracker.com). I finally broke down and paid for the full version, and just finished importing about 20k hands. I can already see that I am a bit less aggressive preflop than I should be, and can see what sort of hands get me in trouble (I must overplay KK, for example, since it is a loser for me overall-this SHOULD change as I get more hands into the tracker).

[UD_Delt]

Those numbers scare me. I try to keep my flops seen % between 20-27% (it can run into the low 30s for a session if I catch a lot of cards). IMHO 44% is WAY too loose.

56% of showdowns won is too low as well...you are paying people off all the way to the river 44% of the time! You obviously shouldn't have 100% (since you would only be playing the mortal nuts, and miss getting paid with a lot of hands that were good), but it should be far above 56%- say 75% or more.

The numbers in general also depend on how often you are playing shorthanded. I usually play the 6-man tables and my flop % is usually around 35%. I'm usually winning decently if my win % is 60% or better and winning a lot if my win % is 75%+.

My win % tends to go down since I find that I'm losing around 10% of my showdowns on rag hands from the BB where I never put in another $. I guess I should bet at the river more often on these once it's checked down to the end to try and take it uncontested by I have a hard time betting on a 27o or similar crap.

I need to get around to registering Poker Tracker myself. I filled up the 1000 hands pretty quickly.

[WayAbvPar]

The numbers in general also depend on how often you are playing shorthanded. I usually play the 6-man tables and my flop % is usually around 35%.

Good point- I normally play full (9-10 player) tables. Shorthanded, the value of hands go up, so seeing the flop more often is a good plan.

[Madman]

A note about my pot at showdowns. That number is a little low because I have called a few cheap bets (and probably a few I shouldn't have called) on people who had been bluffing on the table a bit. Yeah, it's probably something I should control a bit more. It is also low from fuckers chasing the river and popping their straight, flush, 2nd pair, etc. Of course that is probably a bit my fault, since I should have either A) bet more on the flop/turn or B) done something else different (although I am not sure what).

Also Way, as Abagadro pointed out (and it was something I didn't even think about), my VIP percentage is more like 35% or so. As my stats point out, I rarely fold preflop if I am the big or small blind if there hasn't been a raise. Obviously I am much more likely to fold preflop as the small blind, especially if there has been a raise. But a lot of times if I am the small blind and nobody has raised the big blind, then I will just toss in the other $1 to see the flop and consider it an ante (probably not a good way to think, but screw it it's fun). After all even the low percentage hands can get a nice set on the flop occasionally. I realize that isn't a good way to play, but as I said I am not really trying to make money off of it, I am just having fun with it.

[Abagadro]

I received a good education on why mediocre hands are costly this weekend. I was on a very bad runs of cards in a B&M game and was getting really bored (which is a leak of mine) so I started playing hands I would never think of playing most of the time.  Qxs, Axo, low two-gappers, etc.

The problem isn't calling pre-flop and then totally missing your hand and folding (which is costly, but not that big of deal with low blinds/no raises) or when you hit your monster or a good draw to the monster with the right odds.  What cost me money was making hands that were good, but not great.  My top pair would come with no kicker, gut-shot straights would appear and entice me onward with potential implied odds.  Bottom or middle pair would hit and I would convince myself that others were playing overcards, etc. If I was disciplined I probably could have gotten away from these hands, but the very factors that led to me PLAYING these hands led me to stick around.  Not good poker at all.

This plus getting my floped set of jacks beaten by a flopped set of As made it a bad session.

Luckily I made it all up when I switched to Omaha-8 Hi/Lo which is my new favorite game as many people have no clue how to play it, but do anyways. Plus the bad beat on it was $40,000 which I missed by ONE FREAKING CARD when my quad tens beat a guy's broadway straight with 4 cards to the royal with the Q of diamonds on the board instead of a Q of hearts.  20k didn't fall into my pocket because it was the wrong red queen. Grrrr.

[WayAbvPar]

The problem isn't calling pre-flop and then totally missing your hand and folding (which is costly, but not that big of deal with low blinds/no raises) or when you hit your monster or a good draw to the monster with the right odds. What cost me money was making hands that were good, but not great. My top pair would come with no kicker, gut-shot straights would appear and entice me onward with potential implied odds. Bottom or middle pair would hit and I would convince myself that others were playing overcards, etc.

Bingo- EXACTLY what I was trying to impart to Madman earlier.

This plus getting my floped set of jacks beaten by a flopped set of As made it a bad session.

Arrgh! I hate that. I lost a monster pot earlier this week with KK (capped preflop). Made Ks full of Tens on the turn; river was an A to make my opponent As full. I nearly vomited.

I have never played O/8 live- I do like it, though. The first 'real' 0/8 tourney I ever played I placed 3rd out of 60 or so, and have been in love ever since =)

[Abagadro]

Sets over sets are very expensive as you just have to go to war with them becuase sets are so dominant most of the time.  Luckily after the guy went 4 bets with me on the flop I was confident I knew what he had and check-called the turn and river (in a spread game, so they weren't even BBs).  I told him only one hand could beat me after putting in my last bet, but I thought he had it. He did.  I just couldn't bring myself to fold it, but at least minimized the damage.

O-8 players lin B&M seem terrible IMO.  They don't look at the starting hands right, put in lots of bets with non-nut draws, especially on the low side, and half the time don't even read the board right or think you can use one card to make a hand. Plus, they think that any hand with A2 is the greatest thing ever and never even consider the possibility of being quartered.  Easy to feast on if you know what you are doing.

[Madman]

The problem isn't calling pre-flop and then totally missing your hand and folding (which is costly, but not that big of deal with low blinds/no raises) or when you hit your monster or a good draw to the monster with the right odds. What cost me money was making hands that were good, but not great. My top pair would come with no kicker, gut-shot straights would appear and entice me onward with potential implied odds. Bottom or middle pair would hit and I would convince myself that others were playing overcards, etc.

Bingo- EXACTLY what I was trying to impart to Madman earlier.

Yeah, I got that Way. If I play those good but not great hands, I try to keep it as cheap as possible and usually check bet as much as I can. Part of the reason my showdown percentage is low as a couple of them have gone to the showdown. I try not to get overconfident in those situations, but occasionally it has gotten the best of me. Again it is something I have to work on if I plan on playing a lot more.

[Mediocre]

Anyone want to give us the basics of Omaha, for us hold'em players that want to meet a lot of fish? :)

[Pig Destroyer]

Omaha confuses me, I tried playing it but I just couldn't figure out what was a good starting hand and what wasn't.  Any help or reading material you could throw my way would be appreciated.

After I am done with work this week I plan on getting back into Hold 'Em full swing.  Going to rebuy into Party for much more than I normally do and try to legitamately turn this into a nice second income.  We'll see how it goes.

[Abagadro]

Here is a real basic overview.

There are different versions of Omaha, but the main ones are straight high and Omaha 8 Hi-Lo split (usually called Omaha 8).

Betting and the progression of cards is exactly like Hold 'Em, i.e. pre-flop, flop, turn, river.  The big difference is you get 4 cards pre-flop instead of two. You also HAVE TO USE TWO  AND ONLY TWO OF YOUR CARDS in making your best hand. This is where people get tripped up. You can't fit one card into a coordinated board to make a hand, also can't play the board. You must use two cards to make a hand.  Omaha high is pretty straight forward.  High hand wins using two of your cards.  High-low split you can use two separate sets of two cards in your hand (can use same card for both) and the low must qualify by having 5 different cards 8 or under.  Wheels count both ways and are great hands (A-5 straight).  High and low hands in O-8 split the pot.

You try to play hands that play well both ways, i.e. a draw to good high hands and low. People play too many middle pairs which are nearly worthless in O-8. Best starter in O-8 is AA23 with only two suits.   The best thing to go for is the "scoop" where you have the high and the low or at least a high and a share of the low. If you play just to the low, you often get "quartered" where the high takes 1/2 the pot and two people split the low. This is a way to lose lots of money.  

You often also get counterfeited.  Say you are holding an A2TT and the board is 3 6 7 K. You are holding the nut low and are feeling pretty good.  A 2 or ace hits the river and your low hand is counterfeited. If a 2 hits, the nut low is now A4.   If an A hits, the nut low is now 2-4. (7632A vs. 7432A).

O-8 is a nut game if it is loose. You need the nuts or a draw to the nuts or you should fold.  Tighter games play different.

For reading, I suggest Ray Zee's High-Low Split Poker, Seven Card Stud and Omaha Eight or Better for Advanced Players (2+2 publishing) after you get the basics of play.

[Margalis]

Damn I wrote up a good Omaha guide last night, then hit some random key on my keyboard switched screens...

Anyway, the difficult thing for a Holdem player is that in Omaha tons of starting hands look good. You will see a lot of pocket pairs, even pocket trips, that sort of thing.

There are a huge number of potential hands you can have, evaluating them is not quite as simple as Holdem.

AA23 double suited is a good hand. AA24, AA34, etc are also good if you can flop your key card. Don't overplay A2, that is the #1 way people lose money, getting quatered or counterfeited playing A2.

High pairs are good starting hands. Trips and quads are TERRIBLE starting hands. Remember you have to play EXACTLY 2 of your hole cards, so AA is worse than AA. (No way you can hit trips)

As Abagadro said, in loose Omaha games you will see a ton of nut hands, 4 of a kind, etc. In tighter games....it's tough, you really need experience, because the range of hands people could have is so wide.

My best advice when you look at your hands is to forget Holdem and ask yourself "in the range of all starting 4 cards hands, is this a good one?"

[UD_Delt]

Sets over sets are very expensive as you just have to go to war with them becuase sets are so dominant most of the time.

I had a crushing hand that stopped me from playing for a few days last week. It was a horrible end to a session where I just couldn't get going. I had already played for 3 hours and was dead even and then this hand:

I get dealt QQ in the BB. 3 limpers to me so I just check knowing a raise gets no one to fold and I'm beat by any K or A on the flop. Flop comes a beautiful 4h-8s-Qd rainbow. I check, it checks around, button raises, I reraise, all fold to the button who calls. Turn comes a blank Jd. I bet out, reraise, reraise, cap. I figure at this point I have the ideal situation, either a 2-pair or a lower set. River comes a 2d putting the 3-flush on the board. Given the beats I have taken at this table warning bells start going off, all night I've been getting beaten by flushes because these are all any-2-sooted type players. I bet out and get raised. At this point I just call with a bad feeling. Sure enough he shows 4d8d for the flopped 2 pair and the backdoor flush and takes down the pot.

I just didn't know what to do about this hand. It was the end of a series of beats like this and I just had to take a break which turned into a 3 day poker hiatus.

The worst part was there was no one to blame for this other than really bad luck. He was right in betting hard w/ the 2 pair and the backdoor flush. No way I can not cap the (current) nuts on the turn fearing a backdoor flush.  I could have raised pre-flop but that would not have gotten rid of this player, I'm 100% sure of that.

Poker is just so frustrating when you can play things just right and still lose a big pot. Any thoughts on whether or not I could have gotten away from this hand earlier or if I should have slowed earlier than I did?

[Abagadro]

That is indeed a beat. I think you played it fine after the flop and I would have played it the same way.  But I don't like this thinking:

I get dealt QQ in the BB. 3 limpers to me so I just check knowing a raise gets no one to fold and I'm beat by any K or A on the flop.

If you want to vary play because of certain factors or try to trap, fine (these opportunities are few and far between in normal LL play however).

You don't want to raise here to get people out. You want to raise because you have the best hand. It may not have gotten him out, but it may have. It may have convinced him you had the set when you went to war on the flop & turn. Who knows.   But that isn't really the issue.

You want people calling bets when they don't have the odds, basically making mistakes, which calling a raise pre-flop with 84s would certainly be.  Even someone holding a K or A is a 4-1 dog on the flop to hit the overcard.  If more than one person is holding one, the odds for you are even better for you.  It seems to me that most bad players in LL think every time you raise you have AK so you might as well raise other stuff like high pairs as you often get paid off when you hit over-pairs and sets when no A or K is on the board.

It likely wouldn't have mattered on this hand, but in general I think your reasonsing pre-flop is incorrect.

[UD_Delt]

You're probably right about the pre-flop. I've become very weak-tight pre-flop lately then change gears post flop and become tight-aggressive. Lately the only time I've been raising pre-flop is either when I'm opening or when I'm holding a tier 1 hand (AA, KK, AKs).

I think this changed because of my limited stats in poker tracker. In my 1000 hands (I need to register) it showed I was winning a good bit on pocket K's, pocket A's, losing a good bit on Q's & J's, and winning a lot or losing a little on the rest (10's - 2's).

My other reasoning is that even holding AKo the games are so passive that I can't be sure I'm holding the best hand. Likely somone else is limping a pocket pair of some sort.

It's not neccessarily scared money since I've dropped back down to .50/1 since I wasn't comfortable with the bankroll swings at 1/2 even though I was winning a little. I'll move back up once I get $600 back into my account. It's more just trying to figure out which plays are +EV. It just seemed like I was folding too many of the AKo, AQo, Q's, J's type hands after the flopped missed me or brought overcards to my pairs.

I have about 3000 more hands stored to import into poker tracker so once I get that registered hopefully I'll know more....

[WayAbvPar]

Yeah, I got that Way.

I wasn't trying to pick on ya- Abagadro just happened to make a lot more sense saying the same thing that I did, so I wanted to make sure everyone reading knew THAT was what I was talking about =)

I get dealt QQ in the BB. 3 limpers to me so I just check knowing a raise gets no one to fold and I'm beat by any K or A on the flop.

As mentioned, you aren't going to raise this to chase folks out necessarily- it is likely the best hand preflop, and being such, you need to bet it...raises destroy the odds for people playing draw hands (I guess 4d8d falls in that category, but I wouldn't play that anywhere outside of a blind). If you make them pay preflop, they have a decision to make if the flop doesn't make their hand right away. In your particular case, a preflop raise MIGHT have made him lay it down. After the flop, there is no way you are chasing him away (and rightly so- he had every reason to think he had the best hand all the way, since you didn't raise preflop). Flopping top set and getting outdrawn (especially by runner runner non-nut flushes) just fucking sucks all the way around.