Continuing from WT: A question about online poker

[Abagadro]

Would have probably raised pre-flop.   I'm not a big fan of limping with aces. Most people at low limit automatically put you on AK when you raise, so you can get some good equity by raising pre-flop, especially where no A or K hits the board and people think you missed. Limping trying to trap people doesn't really appeal to me in that situation and those limits.

Would have maybe waited for the turn to start raising, but that is a thin difference and you got the equivalence of 2BB from the calling stations on the flop by taking it up 1. I probably would not have capped the flop as I would be hoping to bring along the calling stations for some more bets and also let the 3 bettor lead out on the turn where I could raise hime there as it looks like he was going to the river no matter what and was being agressive.

[WayAbvPar]

Mediocre-
I like the way you played the hand. Calling the flop is the right play IMHO, since you can check-raise the turn for twice the equity (since the bets double); it also disguises your hand well. Also a good time to check raise the turn, since the turn put a second flush card on the board, and you want to charge anyone on a flush draw maximum price for chasing. Betting out on the river after having 'outed' your hand is correct has well- no chance for him to check behind you and cost you a bet.

Anger-
I don't like the preflop limp with AA. You have the best hand- get the money in the pot when you have the best of it. I don't think I cap the betting on the flop either- with that many people in a previously unraised pot, it is not TOO unlikely that one of them is sitting on the case 9. I like the raise, but I think calling the reraise (instead of capping) is more prudent here. If you had raised preflop, I would be less afraid of the last 9 (since sane players would fold most hands that involve a 9 to a preflop raise).

[Margalis]

Anger-
I don't like the preflop limp with AA. You have the best hand- get the money in the pot when you have the best of it. I don't think I cap the betting on the flop either- with that many people in a previously unraised pot, it is not TOO unlikely that one of them is sitting on the case 9. I like the raise, but I think calling the reraise (instead of capping) is more prudent here. If you had raised preflop, I would be less afraid of the last 9 (since sane players would fold most hands that involve a 9 to a preflop raise).

In THIS case I think just calling with AA helped him a lot. What do you think the other guy had? I would guess a mid pocket pair. The fact that Anger didn't raise probably caused him to overvalue his hand.

That said, just limping with AA is a bad idea. The only time I will limp with AA is if I am in early position and am 95% sure someone will raise behind me, or if I am in a tournament heads-up and have been playing very aggressively. (Give the player a chance to trap themselves)

I also would not cap with 3 9s out there. In this case it was the right play. Against me he would have lost to 4 nines though. The opponent was pretty tight we are told. So he had? KK or JJ but didn't raise pre-flop? Something like 77? Who knows...maybe he also just limped with KK...of course once he slowed down on the turn it was obvious he didn't have a 9. Personally I won't cap the betting unless I have the nuts or unless I think the other player is a weak/loose one.

[Abagadro]

I wouldn't fear the 9 there from the flop raiser.  That big of a monster is almost always slowplayed.  If he was tight as you say, he probably had a middle pair and was trying to bet people off overcards so his canoe would hold up.  That's why I'd smooth call the 3-bet and raise him on the turn and hope to get action from him and someone holding the Q.  If anything, I'd be worried about the smooth callers having it and even then not too worried about it.  What was he holding or does pokerstars HH not show mucked showdown hands?

[WayAbvPar]

I've found the promised land, guys.

Two websites -- William Hill and TotalBet.

William Hill cash out troubles.

One of the reasons I don't play at the smaller sites...I like to stick to Party, PS, UB, or Paradise- they have proven track records.

[Mediocre]

From my experience, William Hill and totalbet's 24/7 free phone help has been of great assistance, and I never had any problems.  Neither have the people on BonusWhores who are very much into Cryptologic sites.

Perhaps they have higher security requirements if you win 4,500 dollars playing 1/2?

Perhaps they suspected collusion.


I had to go through a lot to cash out from Party/EmpirePoker; they held my cashout without telling me they hold it, and a month later with still no check (I selected the 7-20 business days option) I called them up, and after several hours on the phone, got it resolved.

Turns out it was because I knew a couple guys IRL who had had their partypoker accounts suspended for being vile fuckers in the cardrooms.


Y'never know.


William Hill actually has much BETTER rules than EmpirePoker and PartyPoker for these situations; at Empire and Party they can (and I've seen it happen) take all your money, winnings and initial deposit, and claim it as theirs entirely at their discretion.  In the William Hill agreement, they can only take your winnings if they suspect you're fucking with them.

[Mediocre]

damn PartyPoker .5/1 to hell.  I played it again because they gave me a 20 dollar bonus to come back... lost with AK to A6 when he should have folded but capped preflop.

Damn them all.

[Pig Destroyer]

$.50/$1 is far and away the most frustrating Poker you will ever play.

I have been playing $3/$6 lately, its actually been going fairly well.  The players there are still terrible, but the suckouts and utter retardation are far less frequent.

[Mediocre]

Terrible play at 3/6?  Really?


I'm doing a $10+1 tournament at PartyPoker now.  Got BB on first hand, went into chip lead with a lucky two pair.  We'll see how it goes.

[Margalis]

My understanding is that $10/$20 is the first decent change in table behavior.

I like playing micro-limits because it teaches me to deal with the suckouts. In micro limits you can make tons of money (relative to the bets at least) if you have patience and a high tolerance for temporary frustration. I find that same mindset helps a lot in tournaments as well.

[Rasix]

I've kinda given up on low limit for the time being as the stress with my upcoming graduation/wedding/new job makes the suckouts really piss me off.

I have, however, had a lot of fun playing in the $5 + .5 sit-n-go's.  I've really started to play very good poker at least initially during the tournaments.  I'm almost always the early chip leader and quite often the midway chip leader.  However, I just can't finish it out.

I think mostly it's just the time of night I play at.  Sometimes I'll start tournies at 11:30 when I should be in bed in an hour.  They run past that when the final 5 people start playing really tight, aggressive fearing losing to atrophy (big blinds can sap you later on). I start getting really impatient and annoyed especially since I just can't seem to catch cards later on.

Perhaps I should just play when I know I can finish out the tournament and not feel cranky/pressed for time because it's getting late. It's awefully hard thought when you've got a fiance (wife in 2 weeks) that really doesn't approve of gambling.  I'm just amazed though at how better I can play in a tournament setting when people aren't river running with extreme crap because it's only costing them a couple bucks.  

Anyhow, I'll post a couple interesting hands later that I thought were kinda fun.  But for now I must deal with Wendy's giving me severe stomach problems..

[Rasix]

Here's a hand I just completely misplayed (I'm thomase12):

PokerStars Game #374846712: Tournament #1355911, Hold'em No Limit - Level V (75/150) - 2004/04/07 - 03:24:13 (ET)
Table '1355911 1' Seat #7 is the button
Seat 1: clubbenz (1470 in chips)
Seat 3: goatse.cx (2170 in chips)
Seat 4: suga (3215 in chips)
Seat 7: afuhr (3250 in chips)
Seat 8: thomase12 (3395 in chips)
thomase12: posts small blind 75
clubbenz: posts big blind 150
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to thomase12 [As Ks]
goatse.cx: calls 150
suga: folds
afuhr: folds
thomase12: calls 75
clubbenz: checks
*** FLOP *** [2h Tc 4c]
thomase12: bets 150
clubbenz: calls 150
goatse.cx: calls 150
*** TURN *** [2h Tc 4c] [Ah]
thomase12: bets 150
clubbenz: calls 150
goatse.cx: calls 150
*** RIVER *** [2h Tc 4c Ah] [3s]
thomase12: bets 150
clubbenz: folds
goatse.cx: raises 1570 to 1720 and is all-in
thomase12: calls 1570
*** SHOW DOWN ***
goatse.cx: shows [3h 3d] (three of a kind, Threes)
thomase12: shows [As Ks] (a pair of Aces)
goatse.cx collected 4790 from  pot
thomase12 said, "ahh sunuva"
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 4790 | Rake 0
Board [2h Tc 4c Ah 3s]
Seat 1: clubbenz (big blind) folded on the River
Seat 3: goatse.cx showed [3h 3d] and won (4790) with three of a kind, Threes
Seat 4: suga folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: afuhr (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: thomase12 (small blind) showed [As Ks] and lost with a pair of Aces

I really should have either beg bigger on the turn or folded after that all in on the river.  The problem is that goatse (god, that name was distracting to play with) had been betting big on the river a lot and often getting called and having shit.   That all in on the river though set off alarm bells, I was pretty sure the river had given him a straight. When I saw the set of 3s, I was just pissed.  

I pretty much gave up on the tourney after that.  It was getting late. Still, I'm not sure in his position I would have chased a pair of pocket 3's to the river.  Even he in discussion later thought his play was kind of odd, but hell, that's poker.

[Pig Destroyer]

Typical River Rat behavior.  You should have pushed all in on the Turn IMHO.

[Mediocre]

Yes, I find people's behavior between the turn and river varies extraordinarily in terms of what they'll bluff.

[Margalis]

No raise pre-flop?

I would play this hand in one of two ways. You are out of position, that is important.

#1: Just call, if I don't hit the flop give up.

#2: Raise big preflop, then make another stab at it post-flop depending on how many people are still in.

I don't think you bet enough preflop obviously. Post flop you were essentially on a bluff, and again didn't bet enough. The problem is, it's hard to bluff effectively if you didn't raise pre-flop.

If you wanted to bluff, you have to bet more than 150. That's the minimum bet with 2 other people already in. The best hand you could possibly have is T with a mediocre kicker. Basically you don't have much and you aren't representing much either.

Maybe the problem is you don't think you were bluffing the turn?

You can call goat a river rat, but he was ahead of you on the flop. It wouldn't surprise me if you were behind the other caller as well. No pairs with 2 other people in the pot is a pure bluff.

"That all in on the river though set off alarm bells, I was pretty sure the river had given him a straight."

So why did you call?

According to Cloutier, your first instinct is right 95% of the time. (Or should be) You say the "problem" was that he was betting on the river and getting paid off? How is that a problem? You know he bets big on the river if he thinks he's ahead. He doesn't mess around with a value bet. He bets big, you have a pair. Easy fold.

It would be a problem if he had been bluffing a lot on the river. It doesn't matter if he had 2 3s or a straight. You though he had the better hand and you were right.

[Rasix]

No raise pre-flop?

I've been getting burned pretty bad on big slick lately. So often I just limp in with it.  I also tend to do this if there are one or more callers before me.  Probably bad play and most likely pyschological, I just can't seem to hit flops at all mid to late game.  

#1: Just call, if I don't hit the flop give up.

#2: Raise big preflop, then make another stab at it post-flop depending on how many people are still in.

I don't think you bet enough preflop obviously. Post flop you were essentially on a bluff, and again didn't bet enough. The problem is, it's hard to bluff effectively if you didn't raise pre-flop.

If you wanted to bluff, you have to bet more than 150. That's the minimum bet with 2 other people already in. The best hand you could possibly have is T with a mediocre kicker. Basically you don't have much and you aren't representing much either.

Yep, I wasn't trying hard enough to get the others out of the hand early on. But I didn't feel that confident bluffing with that board out.  

Maybe the problem is you don't think you were bluffing the turn?

I really wasn't. I thought I had the best hand with the best kicker. Like I said before, I really misplayed it and should have bet stongly and no doubt the pocket 3's would have melted away.

"That all in on the river though set off alarm bells, I was pretty sure the river had given him a straight."

So why did you call?

Brain fart.  Really, when I throw cash into a pot sometimes I have a problem listening to my oh so insightful innards.

[Rasix]

And what do ya know, I win my first sit n go.  Never went counter instinct and got some amazing draws in the end (well, when I had a 5 to 1 chip lead).  Despite some blind stealing time at the end I was pretty much wire to wire first.

Took forever too. Had some bad connection problems(another guy had worse) and almost got dropped completely a couple times.

You finished in 1st place (eliminated at hand #376459326).

135 hands played and saw flop:
 - 16 times out of 31 while in small blind      (51%)
 - 24 times out of 29 while in big blind      (82%)
 - 21 times out of 75 in other positions      (28%)
 - a total of 61 times out of 135      (45%)

 Pots won at showdown - 8 out of 14      (57%)
 Pots won without showdown - 24

Showdown percentage is pretty low for me.  But I lost a few check/check crap hand races.

[Pig Destroyer]

I've had some pretty good luck at the $5 + $1 Sit n Gos at Party.  The players are fairly terrible, and even if I lose I am not out much at all.

The $10 ones I very consistently finish in 4th, which is always amazingly frustrating.  I've been trying desperately to try and play better when I am on the bubble, as those $10 tournies can make a hefty profit.

[UD_Delt]

I've gotten back into the Stars Sit&Go's ($5.50) recently as well. I was on a terrible slide in my limit game (.50/1) down 150BB so I decided I needed a change. I'm glad I did as playing some No Limit opened my eyes to how passive I had gotten in the limit game. I had become the worst kind of calling station and didn't even realize it during my slide. After taking a series of bad beats I got so afraid of what kind of hidden hands everyone else was holding I was too scared to bet or raise on anything but the nuts. That's terrible play in these games when you're calling/folding to maniacs that will bet bottom pair to the river. No wonder I was losing so much...

135 hands played and saw flop:
- 16 times out of 31 while in small blind (51%)
- 24 times out of 29 while in big blind (82%)
- 21 times out of 75 in other positions (28%)
- a total of 61 times out of 135 (45%)

Your %'s seem really high to me. So far in the 9 I've played in my return to NL I've hit money in 4 (1-1st, 2-2cd, 1-3rd), I've gone out in 4th 3 times and the other two around 6th or 7th. Not a great showing so far but I like the fact that I'm making or almost making the money in 7 of 9.

My strategy is to play incredibly tight until the blinds reach the $100/$200 level. During that time my flop % is usually around 10-15%. This serves two purposes:

1.) You're only playing premiums pre-flop and raise 3-4xBB and if you hit the flop hard (TPTK or better) you move all in and either take down an average pot or double up. With the loose play in the $5.50's you'll often double up.

2.) By the time you start playing for real most of the maniacs are out of the game and at least some of the remaining players will recognize how tight you play. This gives you a great table image coming into the time when you start stealing blinds.

Once the blinds reach the $100/$200 level I start playing my real game and slowly loosening up as more people drop out. Once your down to 4 if you have the chip lead it's time to turn up the heat A LOT. People usually tighten up considerably to make the money and as long as you have the lead by a decent margin you should raise any marginal hand you hold. DO NOT DOUBLE ANYONE UP THOUGH. If you hit resistance fold. You can take the occasional hit because you'll be stealing a lot of blinds. I find it's best to attack the 2 in between stacks since the short stack is usually desperate and would be more likely to call you. The two middle stacks will be trying to make the money without taking chances of going out on the bubble.

Alternately as the short stack, which is often in this strategy if you don't hit any premiums in the opening rounds, you are looking to double up once it's down to 4. You can't play tight here since the other stacks will be just biding their time until you blind out. Your goal is to steal blinds and pick off limpers with well timed move-all-ins. Again attack the middle stacks since they'll be less likely to call than the big stack. This is a difficult situation to be in and it takes a bit of luck, hence the 3/9 times I've gone out on the bubble.

By the end of the game if I make it to the final 2 my flop % will usually be around 30-35%. You do have to be a decent heads up player since you'll often find yourself outstacked going into heads up. Most of the people in these $5.50's though are terrible at heads up and you just have to make less mistakes than them and you'll be fine.


Comments?

[WayAbvPar]

Last night I struck a blow for equality- I cracked AA no less than 4 times (3 in one multitable, 1 in a 2/4 ring game). In all but one case, the player with AA tried to get cute and slowplay it, and got burned every time. Let this be a lesson to you young'uns...

I washed out of the multi just short of the money (it was only a $3 buy in, so I didn't miss much), but I kicked total ass at my 2/4 table. The deck was hitting me in the face for much of the night; by the time I cooled down, the table was scared to death to play with me and I stole several pots. Ended up winning 26 BBs for the night, which got my BR a bit healthier than it has been the past week or two.

[Rasix]

stuff

I think my percentages are high for a couple reasons.  If you look at the numbers though, I'm only voluntarily putting money in the pot about 27.5% of the time (may be a tad higher due to pre-flop raises).

1.  I play a lot of hands early on.  For a 20 chip call, I'll limp in.  If someone makes a strong raise, I'm out and all I've lost is 20 chips.  I've caught sets, straights, and otherwise doing this.  

2.  I look for an opportunity to take someone fairly early.  If I've got a set that really can't be beat with the cards that are out there, I'll usually be able to trap someone.  Yesterday, on the big blind, I checked in with a 98o and flopped a full house.  I got a AQs guy to go all in after check/calling the flop, and reraising over the top on the turn.  Last 3-4 tournaments I've been the person that's knocking everyone off the table.  A lot of players will not simply look at the board and fathom that their cards aren't going to hold up. Thus they'll call the 500 bet on the flop, and then get super aggressive turn/river and not realize they're drawing dead.

3.  This usually leads to an early chip lead in which I can see a lot more flops and don't have to play really tight. I do, however, tighten up some as I won't be playing J6o on a 200 chip BB most of the time.

I don't really switch modes in these tournaments.  I pick my spots, and look for players to take out.  You can pick up how players are betting towards the end and use this to your advantage to steal a lot of blinds and induce a lot of folds when you're just not holding the cards.  I try to make my bets look somewhat arbitrary toward the end also, I don't necessarily push all in when I've got the nuts, sometimes a good 1k bet will tempt them to call, then you can milk for more instead of inducing a fold.

I'm not sure how I'd classify my play, but I'm not as tight seeminly as the people I've been playing with. Nothing really annoys me more than when there's still 7 people in when the blinds hit 100 or 5 people left when they're hitting 200 + ante (usually means the tourny is dragging on and I just can't catch cards to do anything about it).

Anyhow, I've been having a lot of fun lately, which is a shame too because I need to finish my master's project. Last couple of tables I've been in have been really talkative (in a good way) and overall it's been more fun when that's the case.  A little back and forth is a great thing to cool the nerves and loosen up when you're trying to bludgeon each other off the table.

[UD_Delt]

Rasix:

If you're strategy works for you then by all means continue it. I don't use that strategy because of my inability to get away from hands that are really good but not the nuts. When you're limping into pots with 6-8 callers, as is usually the case in the early rounds, unless you have the absolute nuts you could end up bleeding off a lot of chips.

If you're limping in with 98o what happens when a flop comes 7-10-j two suited. You flopped the nut straight but even an all-in bet often won't get rid of anyone holding 2 pair, a set, QK, or a flush draw. Depending on how many callers your get you may still have less than a 50% chance of winning with your straight. But it's also a hand thats going to be near impossible to get away from. In a tournament situation where you can't reload those are tricky situations to be in.

Flopping a fullhouse from the big blind in an unraised pot happens whether you are playing tight or loose. It's also a hand that you're not going to loose very often. The problems come when you hit your sucker straights, non-nut flushes, trips w/ no kicker, etc...

I prefer to build a good table image early on and get into the final 5-6 with 1200-1600 in chips. At that point you should have respect on your raises and still enough chips to mix it up in a few hands at the 50/100 & 100/200 levels. You also have taken the time to study the other playes and you know who you are going to be able to push off of hands and who is going to call you on anything. There's usually that one lucky fool who sucked out on 3 people and is sitting on a stack of $5000 in chips who is more than willing to give some of them to you. It makes it easier to pick and choose who and when to bluff and who to milk when you have good hands.

[Rasix]

Rasix:
If you're strategy works for you then by all means continue it. I don't use that strategy because of my inability to get away from hands that are really good but not the nuts. When you're limping into pots with 6-8 callers, as is usually the case in the early rounds, unless you have the absolute nuts you could end up bleeding off a lot of chips.

I just watch the betting. Anything too strong and I'm gone.  20 chips to see a flop is one thing.  60-100 chips chasing the river is just pure stupidity and will bleed you badly.

If you're limping in with 98o what happens when a flop comes 7-10-j two suited. You flopped the nut straight but even an all-in bet often won't get rid of anyone holding 2 pair, a set, QK, or a flush draw. Depending on how many callers your get you may still have less than a 50% chance of winning with your straight. But it's also a hand thats going to be near impossible to get away from. In a tournament situation where you can't reload those are tricky situations to be in.

In that situation I use a nice sized bet. A 200-300 chip bet will get rid of any pretenders, most chasers, and sometimes will be called.  Someone going over the top could result in a fold on my part. You can't be afraid of what people might have when you're holding a the best hand out there. You just have to let them know you have that hand with your betting. Listen to your gut when it tells you to fold.  

Flopping a fullhouse from the big blind in an unraised pot happens whether you are playing tight or loose. It's also a hand that you're not going to loose very often. The problems come when you hit your sucker straights, non-nut flushes, trips w/ no kicker, etc...

The thing is, you can't be afraid to play these hands aggressively.  Watch the board, watch the betting, if there's the possibility that you can be beat and someone's betting like they're going to beat you, it's not a bad play to just lay down the hand.  I've seen people check/checking with trips when it was obvious the other person didn't have anything to write home about.  If you can't be agressive playing a set when the person is just looking like a river-rat, what can you be agressive with?

I prefer to build a good table image early on and get into the final 5-6 with 1200-1600 in chips. At that point you should have respect on your raises and still enough chips to mix it up in a few hands at the 50/100 & 100/200 levels. You also have taken the time to study the other playes and you know who you are going to be able to push off of hands and who is going to call you on anything. There's usually that one lucky fool who sucked out on 3 people and is sitting on a stack of $5000 in chips who is more than willing to give some of them to you. It makes it easier to pick and choose who and when to bluff and who to milk when you have good hands.

I'm not really happy unless I'm sitting at about 2500-3k at that point.  I don't get there by suckouts because I really don't put a lot of chips on the board in a tentative position early in the game. And I heard this nugget of wisdom and have taken it to heart "never go all in on a draw".  

You can usually tell who the chimps are at that time.  The guys that raise, reraise back and forth and then end up winning with a pair of 10's at the river.  And somehow they're still in it.  

Of course, 5 people left and a chip lead is usually where I fall apart (50% of the time). I usually just have to stick to my plan, play my game, and make one or two good laydowns and I'll hit the final 3.

Of course, I'll still fairly new to all of this, but I feel myself getting better and playing better. People are tending to respect my play at the tables now and I often get a lot of compliments for it.  The hardest part for me is just following my intuition, especially about laydowns.  My intuition is often shit in other parts of my life, but it seems to be dead on with poker.

[Margalis]

"Maybe the problem is you don't think you were bluffing the turn? "

Damn it, I mean the flop here. What I wrote originally makes no sense. I meant when you had AK on the flop your bet was a bluff bet, you had nothing with 2 cards to go.

[Rasix]

Woo. Last night brougth me back down to earth.  Nothing quite like not hitting any cards all night.  I think the highest cards I got all night was a set of 10's.  

I still finished just one place out of money on my first tourney (was too pissed to really play good on my second one).  Of course, at the end of the first someone did something that pissed me off so bad I could hardly breathe.  He didn't merely hint his hand, he flat out said it.  "Nut straight".  So I figure, he's full of shit and push all in (I was on a really short stack and having horrible luck).  And low and behold, there's mr. nut straight staring back at me.  Missed a flush by a card too. Isn't this considered inappropriate tournament ettiquete?

Sometimes it's just amazing at how shitty you can play when you're physically and mentally exhausted (ya I know, why the fuck did I even try) and the cards just won't hit no matter what. I broke so many of my own rules it took me an hour to fall asleep later I was so baffled by my own crappy play.

[WayAbvPar]

I have finally gotten into a bit of a warm streak recently- won a $10 SnG last night, then wrecked the 2/4 table for another $50-$60 in about an hour. The cards are coming, I am hitting my draws, and even when they don't,  I am playing with confidence (which is worth a couple of pots an hour).

Unfortunately, I can't take advantage of my streak, due to MSN's shocking incompetence. Not that I am bitter.

[Rasix]

That really sucks.  Losing internet service is never fun.  Perhaps this is an opportunity for you to get really good at Links 2004.

I just couldn't hit anything.  Anytime I flopped the top pair someone slow played a low set or a two pair.  Or if we both had the ace I never had the kicker.

It was just brutal.  It was like God kicking me in the balls and chuckling the whole time.

Edit: Just an indication of how bad it was: I got 72o 2 times in a row and about 6-7 times the entire night. 3 times on big blinds.

[UD_Delt]

I know how you feel Rasix. Last night in our home game I got completely cold decked. We played 3 $10 8-man tournies and I went out 4th, on the bubble, in all 3. I just caught no cards at all and eventually the blind-bleeding forced my to play hands I normally wouldn't and I lost them all. Every time I tried a bluff or semi-bluff I'd get picked off and the very few times I actually got my money in while ahead I got burnt on the river.

I think the only hand I won other than a few steals was when I was finally forced all in on a blind with A5 and I beat AK when 55x flopped.

But hey, that's poker. :)

[Margalis]

My worst was I entered two tournaments in a row, lasted more than an hour in each, and never won a single hand in either, not even a blind steal.

[WayAbvPar]

Keep your chin up Rasix. Keep playing good cards, and stay aggressive when you have big hands. DON'T chase thin draws and 2nd best hands just because you are 'due'. If you keep playing your normal good game, things will swing around again.

I went through a low spot a couple of weeks ago- BR was under $200. I have almost tripled it in the past 2 nights, so things can change in a big hurry.

[UD_Delt]

Another fun hand from .50/1 no-foldem hold-em:

POKERSTARS GAME #379256188:  HOLD'EM LIMIT ($0.50/$1.00) - 2004/04/09 - 22:58:45 (ET)
Table 'Thusnelda' Seat #5 is the button
Seat 1: joe333 ($12.25 in chips)
Seat 2: forlucas ($12.75 in chips)
Seat 3: UD_Delt ($21 in chips)
Seat 4: plasman ($7.25 in chips)
Seat 5: tedh ($4.75 in chips)
Seat 6: BWare720 ($11.25 in chips)
BWare720: posts small blind $0.25
joe333: posts big blind $0.50
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to UD_Delt [Ks Qh]
forlucas: calls $0.50
UD_Delt: raises $0.50 to $1
plasman: calls $1
tedh: raises $0.50 to $1.50
BWare720: folds
joe333: calls $1
forlucas: calls $1
UD_Delt: calls $0.50
plasman: calls $0.50
*** FLOP *** [5c Kh 4h]
joe333: bets $0.50
forlucas: calls $0.50
UD_Delt: raises $0.50 to $1
plasman: folds
tedh: calls $1
joe333: calls $0.50
forlucas: calls $0.50
*** TURN *** [5c Kh 4h] [6s]
joe333: checks
forlucas: checks
UD_Delt: bets $1
tedh: calls $1
joe333: folds
forlucas: calls $1
*** RIVER *** [5c Kh 4h 6s] [6c]
forlucas: bets $1
UD_Delt: calls $1
tedh: folds
*** SHOW DOWN ***
forlucas: shows [6d 2d] (three of a kind, Sixes)
UD_Delt: mucks hand
forlucas collected $16 from  pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $16.75 | Rake $0.75
Board [5c Kh 4h 6s 6c]
Seat 1: joe333 (big blind) folded on the Turn
Seat 2: forlucas showed [6d 2d] and won ($16) with three of a kind, Sixes
Seat 3: UD_Delt mucked [Ks Qh] - two pair, Kings and Sixes
Seat 4: plasman folded on the Flop
Seat 5: tedh (button) folded on the River
Seat 6: BWare720 (small blind) folded before Flop

Any way to get away from hands like these?

POKERSTARS GAME #379220101:  HOLD'EM LIMIT ($0.50/$1.00) - 2004/04/09 - 22:38:28 (ET)
Table 'Tergeste' Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: AZN12 ($24.75 in chips)
Seat 2: Annex ($6 in chips)
Seat 3: 3 buggy tops ($15.50 in chips)
Seat 4: UD_Delt ($39.25 in chips)
Seat 5: Bones54 ($8 in chips)
Annex: posts small blind $0.25
3 buggy tops: posts big blind $0.50
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to UD_Delt [Qh Ah]
UD_Delt: raises $0.50 to $1
Bones54: folds
AZN12: calls $1
Annex: folds
3 buggy tops: folds
*** FLOP *** [Ks As 8s]
UD_Delt: bets $0.50
AZN12: raises $0.50 to $1
UD_Delt: calls $0.50
*** TURN *** [Ks As 8s] [2c]
PINOY_RANK#1 joins the table at seat #6
UD_Delt: checks
AZN12: bets $1
UD_Delt: calls $1
*** RIVER *** [Ks As 8s 2c] [6d]
UD_Delt: checks
AZN12: bets $1
UD_Delt: calls $1
*** SHOW DOWN ***
AZN12: shows [Ac Kh] (two pair, Aces and Kings)
UD_Delt: mucks hand
AZN12 collected $8.50 from  pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $8.75 | Rake $0.25
Board [Ks As 8s 2c 6d]
Seat 1: AZN12 (button) showed [Ac Kh] and won ($8.50) with two pair, Aces and Kings
Seat 2: Annex (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 3: 3 buggy tops (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 4: UD_Delt mucked [Qh Ah] - a pair of Aces
Seat 5: Bones54 folded before Flop (didn't bet)

[Madman]

Well, I just discovered the fun that is a sit and go tourney. It has been a while since I have played poker and I think I ended up doing pretty good today. I played in 3 sit and go's tonight and finished fourth, second and first respectively.

The first tourney, I was second in chips quite early (between 2500-3000 chips) and then ended up playing a bit too loose. I slid down a bit to around 1k chips, then made it back up to 2k or so chips, and then got busted by this hand:

Code:

*********** # 48 **************
PokerStars Game #378986219: Tournament #1373386, Hold'em No Limit - Level IV 
(50/100) - 2004/04/09 - 20:17:45 (ET)
Table '1373386 1' Seat #8 is the button
Seat 1: Carbok (2140 in chips) 
Seat 4: TheMadMadman (2220 in chips) 
Seat 6: P Fresh (2415 in chips) 
Seat 8: decoys (3640 in chips) 
Seat 9: mehdipak (3085 in chips) 
mehdipak: posts small blind 50
Carbok: posts big blind 100
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to TheMadMadman [7s 7c]
TheMadMadman: raises 300 to 400
P Fresh: folds 
decoys: folds 
mehdipak: calls 350
Carbok: raises 1740 to 2140 and is all-in
TheMadMadman: calls 1740
mehdipak: folds 
*** FLOP *** [4s 3c 4d]
*** TURN *** [4s 3c 4d] [4c]
*** RIVER *** [4s 3c 4d 4c] [4h]
TheMadMadman said, "bah"
decoys said, "ek"
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Carbok: shows [8s 8h] (four of a kind, Fours)
TheMadMadman: shows [7s 7c] (four of a kind, Fours - lower kicker)
decoys said, "wow"
TheMadMadman said, "haha"
Carbok collected 4680 from  pot
TheMadMadman said, "too funny"
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 4680 | Rake 0 
Board [4s 3c 4d 4c 4h]
Seat 1: Carbok (big blind) showed [8s 8h] and won (4680) with four of a kind, 
Fours
Seat 4: TheMadMadman showed [7s 7c] and lost with four of a kind, Fours
Seat 6: P Fresh folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: decoys (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: mehdipak (small blind) folded before Flop

I was left with 80 chips after this hand and surprisingly I managed to make  my way back up to around 1500, I managed to win a few small all in bets and then this hand came up:

Code:

*********** # 61 **************
PokerStars Game #378999159: Tournament #1373386, Hold'em No Limit - Level V 
(75/150) - 2004/04/09 - 20:26:17 (ET)
Table '1373386 1' Seat #4 is the button
Seat 1: Carbok (3520 in chips) 
Seat 4: TheMadMadman (670 in chips) 
Seat 6: P Fresh (2380 in chips) 
Seat 8: decoys (3465 in chips) 
Seat 9: mehdipak (3465 in chips) 
P Fresh: posts small blind 75
decoys: posts big blind 150
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to TheMadMadman [Jc Jd]
mehdipak: folds 
Carbok: raises 450 to 600
TheMadMadman: raises 70 to 670 and is all-in
P Fresh: folds 
decoys: folds 
Carbok: calls 70
Carbok said, "lets try again"
*** FLOP *** [Qs 2h 8c]
TheMadMadman said, "damn"
*** TURN *** [Qs 2h 8c] [Ac]
TheMadMadman said, "good game"
*** RIVER *** [Qs 2h 8c Ac] [Jh]
TheMadMadman said, "hahaha"
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Carbok: shows [8s 8d] (three of a kind, Eights)
TheMadMadman: shows [Jc Jd] (three of a kind, Jacks)
decoys said, "wow"
Carbok said, "foooook"
TheMadMadman collected 1565 from  pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 1565 | Rake 0 
Board [Qs 2h 8c Ac Jh]
Seat 1: Carbok showed [8s 8d] and lost with three of a kind, Eights
Seat 4: TheMadMadman (button) showed [Jc Jd] and won (1565) with three of a 
kind, Jacks
Seat 6: P Fresh (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 8: decoys (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 9: mehdipak folded before Flop (didn't bet)

After that the ante plus blinds started to wear me down although I managed to hold off long enough to place 4th. Of course that is because one guy went all in and lost, but those are the breaks. I probably could have tried to hold out a little longer since I went all in with about 450 in chips and the guy who was sitting in 3rd had about 550 chips. But again those are the breaks and I probably wouldn't have been able to hold off that long with the 200 dollar big blinds.

This post has gotten pretty long, so I will leave it here for now. The second and third tourney I played went much better. I will have to go through the hand histories to look for good or bad hands. The third tourney was fun because I knocked out like 3 people (on seperate hands) pretty early in the game, so I ended up getting alot of respect and was able to bluff out a few extra hands.

Edit - Yeah UD_Delt, the way to get away from those hands is to stop playing at the .50/1 tables. Although I think you just got busted on a good hand with the second one. After my last adventures with .50/1 NL tables, I decided not to play them ever again. In fact those tables are why I took such a long break from playing. Now that I have played a few sit and go's, I think I will be playing those more often. I was playing 10+1 tables, and usually playing for an hour. If I lose, then it's only 11 bucks, if place third or better than at least I have won some money. Some people chase on the sit and go's but those people usually end up out of the tourney fairly fast. Granted my knowledge about those tourneys isn't extensive, but I feel the people who went out really fast just aren't good players anyway.

[Margalis]

Another fun hand from .50/1 no-foldem hold-em:

Dealt to UD_Delt [Ks Qh]
forlucas: calls $0.50
UD_Delt: raises $0.50 to $1

Huh?

An early position raise with KQo? I might limp if I thought nobody behind me would raise. KQ is a sucker hand. A hand like KQ you are playing for 2 pair or a straight. Raising in early position with KQ is a great way to set yourself up to be outkicked.


---

The second one is much more player dependent. I would raise at a small table with AQs from just about any position. And the guy just called, so knows what he has.

The only choice you really had was to fold to his reraise on the flop. It's either that or commit yourself to calling all the way. Depending on what you think of him folding might not have been a bad idea.

The fact that with AK he only called your raise would make me think you should honor his reraises. If I raise in early position and a loose player has AK I expect them to reraise me. Don't know if you could have had that read at that point.

You have to keep in mind that he reraised knowing you raised preflop. So you could have AA, KK, AK, AJ, KQ, QQ, etc. Obviously he thinks his hand will beat most of those.

If someone raised preflop and then an ace and a king come on the flop, my expectation is that they had a pretty good chance of hitting something. So a bluff reraise there doesn't seem likely.

[Margalis]

Dealt to TheMadMadman [7s 7c]
TheMadMadman: raises 300 to 400
P Fresh: folds
decoys: folds
mehdipak: calls 350
Carbok: raises 1740 to 2140 and is all-in
TheMadMadman: calls 1740

This is some great advice I heard once - if you are willing to call an all-in, you should have been the one raising all-in to begin with.

At least then he might throw away the 8s.

I don't like this call at all with 77. There are very few hands you are a clear favorite over. 22-66 are the only hands you are in good shape against. (Barring total bluffs like J4 or something...) You are in terrible shape against 88-AA, and basically even to any two overcards.

In 1st position with 4 people to act behind me I wouldn't raise that much, if at all. I'drather limp and hope to catch someone with a set.

The problem with a hand like 77 is on the flop if you miss a 7 there almost certainly will be overcards, and then what? on the button or small blind I might make this raise, not from first position though. Any reraise behind me will be even or better against me.

A raise in first position usually indicates something strong. That means anyone raising behind you likely has you beat.

If you folded to the all-in you would still have 1800 or so and the blinds were 50-100, plenty of time. Maybe you felt compelled to call because of your initial 400 investment? Basically, you were hoping to get lucky.

If you felt your 400 investment meant you had to call anything after you should have raised all in to begin with. Better to put your money in first. There is a real chance he could have thrown away the 88. Anytime you feel you are compelled to call any raise, you should be the one raising.

[Madman]

I think it depends a lot on the table and the players. At that particular table there were a lot of big raises on lower pocket pairs. As well as a lot of big raises/all in's on Ax, Kx, Qx, etc both suited and off suited. And a good part of the time they wouldn't hit a flop at all. So I think that it was a fairly good call on my part, although I probably should have folded. I really wasn't trying to protect the 400 chip raise I made earlier, it was just I had seen a lot of big raises off fairly crappy cards without the person making their set on the flop and all the way down to the river.

I mostly posted that hand because it was the first time I had ever seen a 4 of kind come up on the board before. I think that I just have a different style of play than you. You can say that I don't know the proper plays, which hands to hold and which to fold preflop, but it really doesn't matter to me. I said it earlier in this thread, I am really just playing for fun. I am not trying to make a living off of it. I am still currently about 100 bucks up from my original deposit, so I still feel pretty good about my play.

You will also notice that even though I lost that 77 hand, I still managed to almost win money. I probably could have if I had been a little more patient at towards the end. Granted some of that was luck with an couple of all in bets, especially since at least once was a big blind.

You would probably like my play in the second tourney I played today even less, I ended up going down to around 400-500 chips quite quickly but I managed to make my money back and ended up finishing second.  My third tourney today was my best, I don't know if I was just getting great cards or if the players were really bad (a couple of them were), but by the 25th hand of that tourney 6 people had been knocked out and I caused 5 of them. I finished first in that one, but that isn't hard to do when you have over 10k in chips on the 26th hand and only 3 people are left in the game.

I played 4 (I think) more sit and go's tonight, but I didn't so as well as the first 3. I finished all of those in 5th or 6th place. I was a bit tired though and played a little too loose. I also got busted a few times with good preflop or flop bets that got busted on the river, which is never a good thing.

I am sure I could play better, but I am also sure that I could play a lot worse. I think it is a matter of style and of course playing against the other people on the table. Sometimes it's just a matter of gut calling a 92o preflop and watching your boat come in. Sometimes it's a matter of folding that 92o and cringing when your boat comes in. Alright, I think I am getting too Zen here or something, so I am gonna shut up.