Continuing from WT: A question about online poker

[WayAbvPar]

I am glad I have company in my struggles at .5/1 tables! My OIC is taking much longer than I had hoped to get to the higher levels. My first night, I went from $50 to $76. The next session, I went from $76 to $59. Next- $59 to $68, back to $60. ARRRGH! If I can just break loose and get to the $1/$2, I think I will be fine.

It is taking so long that I have taken to playing a SnG or multi while I am slaving away at the .5/1 tables. Thankfully I am playing decently in these, so my bankroll is still headed north.

[UD_Delt]

I am glad I have company in my struggles at .5/1 tables!

Welcome to my nightmare. It's nice to have company.

I've been playing at these levels for about 4 months now. I started there when my bankroll was at $200 and decided I wouldn't move up until I hit $600. In the first month I got my bankroll to $400. The next month I got it to $550. The month after it went back down to $450. I'm currently sitting at about $490.

I was so close when my bankroll hit $550 that I could taste it. Then I got cold decked and hit nothing but second best hands and my hopes were shattered. It seems like I've been spinning my wheels now in the $450 - $500 range and just can't seem to get over the hump.

You've only been at these levels for what a few days now? Try playing at them for 4 months and come back and let me know how it feels...

So, what exactly do I have to look forward to at the $1/$2 level? Will people finally start to think for one second about what I might actually have rather than call down on every bottom pair (that of course turn into 2 pair on the river)? I dream of the days when a pre-flop raise might actually steal some blinds....

[Mediocre]

I've found the promised land, guys.

Two websites -- William Hill and TotalBet.

Players are COMPLETE MORONS.  Minimum tables are $1/$2, and EVERYONE PLAYS LOOSE WEAK.  PEOPLE WILL GO IN ON 2-4 OFFSUIT AND SEE YOU OFF TO THE LAST CARD WITH BOTTOM PAIR.


Oh, and each website pays you $9 per hour to play there, 5 hours per month.  If you hurry, you can finish March in time to get April's bonus as well as March's.


Best part? They're on the same network and you can play on both sites at the same time -- perfectly allowed.  So, I'm collecting $18 an hour to play against the WORLD'S SHITTIEST PLAYERS.

Thank you, bonuswhores.com.

[Mediocre]

I just made 100 dollars, counting $20 bonuses, in my first hour playing $1/2 at Totalbet and William Hill combined.


Guess what I found out, that made me $50BB?  There's no limit on the number of raises.

I had pocket aces, spade ace on the board, pair of 9's on the board -- a guy has a king high flush at 5th street, and I have the nut full house.

Only thing he can beat me with is quads, and he was playing K3spades -- the players here aren't the best ever.   You'll see hands like 27o going in all the time, often to 5th street.


We literally raised back and forth over 45BB before he finally decided to call, after taunting me in chat that he'd "taken enough from me" because "he has the best flush lol".

Seeing $60 slide towards my table in one hand at $1/$2 was priceless.

[Margalis]

I am doing the ultimate challenge. I started with $4. Yes, FOUR DOLLARS. Currently I am at $20, playing .04/.08 stud, .05/.1 holdem fixed and .02 NL holdem.

This is a great learning experience, which is why I am doing this. I am going to take my 4 bucks and turn it into thousands...eventually.

[UD_Delt]

Ok. Well Hold em has been giving me a beating lately so I decided to give Omaha a try which I haven't played more than a few times. How poorly did I play this hand? I'm pretty sure my starting requirements are off but after that....

PokerStars Game #362605535:  Omaha Hi/Lo Pot Limit ($0.10/$0.25) - 2004/03/30 - 22:22:16 (ET)
Table 'Chara' Seat #2 is the button
Seat 1: dr shock ($8.95 in chips)
Seat 2: UD_Delt ($23.70 in chips)
Seat 3: xrtracer ($22.85 in chips)
Seat 4: nsamarkos ($10.75 in chips)
Seat 5: LOSERx3 ($27 in chips)
Seat 6: TON80 ($16.05 in chips)
Seat 7: dartagnan ($9.60 in chips)
Seat 8: bob james ($10.05 in chips)
Seat 9: Dogbreath ($28.25 in chips)
xrtracer: posts small blind $0.10
nsamarkos: posts big blind $0.25
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to UD_Delt [4d Ad Ts Jh]
LOSERx3: folds
TON80: folds
dartagnan: calls $0.25
bob james: folds
Dogbreath: folds
dr shock: calls $0.25
UD_Delt: calls $0.25
xrtracer: folds
nsamarkos: checks
*** FLOP *** [5d 6d Qs]
nsamarkos: bets $0.25
dartagnan: folds
dr shock: calls $0.25
UD_Delt: calls $0.25
*** TURN *** [5d 6d Qs] [Td]
nsamarkos: bets $0.50
dr shock: raises $0.75 to $1.25
UD_Delt: raises $4.80 to $6.05
nsamarkos: folds
dr shock: calls $4.80
*** RIVER *** [5d 6d Qs Td] [6c]
dr shock: bets $2.40 and is all-in
UD_Delt: calls $2.40
*** SHOW DOWN ***
dr shock: shows [Qd 4c 9d Qh] (HI: a full house, Queens full of Sixes)
UD_Delt: mucks hand
dr shock collected $18.35 from  pot
No low hand qualified
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $19.25 | Rake $0.90
Board [5d 6d Qs Td 6c]
Seat 1: dr shock showed [Qd 4c 9d Qh] and won ($18.35) with HI: a full house, Queens full of Sixes
Seat 2: UD_Delt (button) mucked [4d Ad Ts Jh] - HI: a flush, Ace high
Seat 3: xrtracer (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 4: nsamarkos (big blind) folded on the Turn
Seat 5: LOSERx3 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: TON80 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: dartagnan folded on the Flop
Seat 8: bob james folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: Dogbreath folded before Flop (didn't bet)


Thanks.

[Madman]

I don't really play Omaha hold em, so I don't know how good my advice is. I don't think you played the hand badly, you just got busted on a bad river draw.  He was betting on his flush during the turn and you had the high flush.

I don't know if you should have stayed preflop, but like I said I don't know Omaha that well, so I can't tell you if you had good preflop cards.

I am sure someone will correct me.

[Anger]

Consider this a small cry for help, have I played these two hands correctly?  They leave a bad taste in my mouth:

*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Anger [Kh Ad]
jerry-777: folds
Bert23x: folds
Anger: raises $0.25 to $0.50
BILLIE: folds
Bunny91169: folds
joshuaa02: folds
Centuryguy: folds
river_hoes: folds
Kenny Oz: calls $0.40
kt10k: calls $0.25
*** FLOP *** [Ac 5h Js]
Kenny Oz: checks
kt10k: checks
Anger: bets $0.25
Kenny Oz: calls $0.25
kt10k: folds
*** TURN *** [Ac 5h Js] [8d]
Kenny Oz: checks
Anger: bets $0.50
Kenny Oz: calls $0.50
*** RIVER *** [Ac 5h Js 8d] [Qh]
Kenny Oz: checks
Anger: bets $0.50
Kenny Oz: raises $0.50 to $1
Anger: calls $0.50
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Kenny Oz: shows [9h Th] (a straight, Eight to Queen)
Anger: mucks hand
Kenny Oz collected $4.75 from  pot

I have to say I didn't really expect the straight at all, mainly because...why would anyone stay in with that?

This next one is pretty simple, but I wasn't sure what to do on the flop here, so I folded.  I figure it's better to err on the side of caution.

*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Anger [Ac Kd]
BILLIE: folds
Q-Tip69: folds
joshuaa02: folds
Centuryguy: folds
river_hoes: folds
Kenny Oz: folds
kt10k: checks
jerry-777: folds
Bert23x: calls $0.15
Anger: raises $0.25 to $0.50
kt10k: calls $0.25
Bert23x: calls $0.25
*** FLOP *** [6s 4s 8s]
Bert23x: bets $0.25
Anger: folds
kt10k: calls $0.25
*** TURN *** [6s 4s 8s] [Kc]
Bert23x: bets $0.50
kt10k: calls $0.50
*** RIVER *** [6s 4s 8s Kc] [Jd]
Bert23x: bets $0.50
kt10k: calls $0.50
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Bert23x: shows [Qc 9s] (high card King)
kt10k: shows [Qs Kh] (a pair of Kings)
kt10k collected $4 from  pot

[Mediocre]

I think your play on the flop on the last hand was essentially correct. As far as the straight, I would have done what you did.

[Margalis]

Ok. Well Hold em has been giving me a beating lately so I decided to give Omaha a try which I haven't played more than a few times. How poorly did I play this hand? I'm pretty sure my starting requirements are off but after that....

A4TJ is a pretty bad hand...to get the low you need a 2 and 3 to come down, and the TJ by themselves are almost useless. Basically you are hoping for diamonds, a 2 & 3, or a K & Q.

After that though not much you could do. You had to call the bet at the river for that much money in the pot, although in Omaha chances are pretty good when the board pairs someone has at least a full house.

[Abagadro]

Anger, both hands look fine.  Big Slick is a tough hand at low limit, you almost need two pair or a broadway with it to feel comfortable.

Ud-Delt. I think it is a serious mistake to play Pot-Limit Omaha when you aren't familiar with the game. Find a low limit one to get the feel of it.

That starting hand is pretty lousy. If it were a very tight game with few people seeing the flop, I may play it in late position. It just doesn't play that well with only one flush draw, a non-suited broadway draw and 4th nut low starter.  Would be a very loose call even in the situation I mentioned.

You got lucky on the flop/turn with basically your only decent hand and had the nuts, plus a decent low draw heads up. However, Omaha is a river game far more than hold em. When it pairs and someone has stayed around that long, a FH is almost guaranteed. The small turn raise with a flush board screams set.  He knows you have the nuts when you pot-bet raise him, yet he bets into you on the river when the board pairs. I would have folded to the river bet.

[Margalis]

Consider this a small cry for help, have I played these two hands correctly?  They leave a bad taste in my mouth:

*** RIVER *** [Ac 5h Js 8d] [Qh]
Kenny Oz: checks
Anger: bets $0.50
Kenny Oz: raises $0.50 to $1
Anger: calls $0.50

This is a mistake.

I think I said this in this thread before...betting the river is the easiest thing to get wrong.

When you bet the river you are hoping for 2 things:
1: They will call with a worse hand.
2: They will fold a better hand.

If he was on a draw and missed it he won't call a bet, so betting does nothing. If he was on a draw and made it you don't have a great hand.

What would he call your bet with and lose with? A + worse kicker? If he had AJ or AQ you are in trouble though. Whenever you bet the river you have to ask youself what will he call with, what will he fold with? In this case, the only thing he might call and lose with is A + lower kicker, but he could also have 2 pair or a straight a couple different ways.

I would just check here.





*** SHOW DOWN ***
Kenny Oz: shows [9h Th] (a straight, Eight to Queen)
Anger: mucks hand
Kenny Oz collected $4.75 from  pot[/quote]

I have to say I didn't really expect the straight at all, mainly because...why would anyone stay in with that?

This next one is pretty simple, but I wasn't sure what to do on the flop here, so I folded.  

You had AK suited and the flop came three low cards all of another suit. What are you not sure about? You have nothing and little chance to improve.

An A or a K could give you a pair, but if that A or K is of the same suit as the other 3 you are probably dead. (If you aren't already) You could already be drawing dead. You have no draw and tons of danger cards.

You have 4 outs tops. The suited A or K will kill you, so that leaves 2 other aces and 2 other kings. And you could already be dead. And someone is betting from first position.

Folding is the right play here 99% of the time. This time it turns out you would have won...it happens.

[UD_Delt]

I have to say I didn't really expect the straight at all, mainly because...why would anyone stay in with that?

You must not play much at the low limits. :)

To give you an idea of what you lose with... I lost AA after raising pre-flop to someone playing Q8o who hit Q's & 8's. I lost w/ a 9-7 from the BB to a 10-7o played from UTG on a 77x flop.

My favorite:

Playing short handed w/ only 3 people. I'm dealt AhJh on the button. I raise, SB folds, BB raises, I reraise, he caps. Flop KhQd10d. Nice broadway straight for me. We again cap the pot. Turn Ks. Now I'm a little worried he was playing KQ or some such. He bets, I call. River 10c. Now I know I'm screwed. He bets, I make a crying call because I have to know how beat I was. He turns over Kd3s. That was the hand he capped preflop...

I managed to lose 40BB in a little over an hour yesterday. 60% of which I was leading at the turn and lost on the river. The other 20% were hands that hit me hard out of the BB when I had crap cards but someone else called in playing equally crappy cards that were just slightly better than mine. 20% were legitimate losses where I put money in while behind with a worse kicker or when the flop hit me but hit someone else harder. IE... Flop: A-10-2. I have AK he has A-10, Flop: undercards me: QQ him: AA, etc...

Sorry once again for bitching but I can't help it given my current 150BB downswing. Any samaritan's out there willing to go over some hand histories of mine and help me figure out where I'm going wrong? Alternately, someone needs to tell me to shut the hell up and I'll stop with the bad beat stories...

[Abagadro]

I disagree with not betting the river with the A and top kicker. At low limit you will get called down with all sorts of crap. Any A will call you at those limits and middle pair will call you 50% of the time. You unfortunately got sucked out on and it cost you an extra BB, but checking the river would be seriously weak-tight IMO.  You may want to consider folding to the raise however depending upon the player.

[Margalis]

I disagree with not betting the river with the A and top kicker. At low limit you will get called down with all sorts of crap. Any A will call you at those limits and middle pair will call you 50% of the time. You unfortunately got sucked out on and it cost you an extra BB, but checking the river would be seriously weak-tight IMO.  You may want to consider folding to the raise however depending upon the player.

People will call with middle pair if the flop is something like 3 7 T. Most people won't call with middle pair if an ace is out, unless they have pockets they don't want to give up on. People play aces. Chances are if an ace is out there, someone has it.

On the river there were 3 cards he didn't want to see. T, K and Q. One of those 3 hit.

Kenny Oz checked the flop when he was first to act and just called the preflop raise. That's an obvious draw. There is no point betting the river against draws. The best hope was he had something like KQ, hit the Q and would feel compelled to call.

I wouldn't check top pair top kicker in every situation. Just this one. Chances are either you lost or he'll fold to a bet.

[Abagadro]

We'll just have to disagree. His opponent played that hand like he had A with a weak kicker.  People check-call this hand all the time at those limits.  There is a good reason to bet a draw on the river. It is an equity bet. People call down all sorts of dog shit. They hit their lousy second pair and figure hey its one more bet and I want to see what he has, keep him honest, yada yada yada.  

What is the point of checking? If he bets, you are compelled to call. So you have put in one bet. If he checks through, you likely have the winner and don't have the possibility of collecting the extra bet.  Just bet and then fold to a river raise. Cost you the same as check-calling and you can be almost guaranteed you are beat.  Very few people bluff river-raise in low limit in my experience. Even if you get raised, you are only giving up one extra bet in the unlikely event that the runner-runner monster got there or someone hit their 3 outter on a second pair.

I believe you will get called with crap many more times than raised on the river by the suck-out that got there.  If you are checked to, by all means check it through if you don't feel good about you hands and fear a CR. But just check-calling the river heads up with TP/TK is bad poker if you ask me.

[WayAbvPar]

I am in the midst of the most hideous run of big time beats that I can remember. The following 3 hands happened in a 15 minute span a couple of days ago (I have edited out some of the extraneous lines to avoid having a mile long quote)-

Dealt to wayabvpar [Ah Ac]
wayabvpar: raises 40 to 60
heyrocker: calls 50
*** FLOP *** [7c 9h 3h]
heyrocker: checks
wayabvpar: bets 80
heyrocker: raises 120 to 200
wayabvpar: calls 120
*** TURN *** [7c 9h 3h] [9c]
heyrocker: checks
wayabvpar: bets 360
heyrocker: raises 860 to 1220 and is all-in
wayabvpar said, "gonna be a short one I guess"
wayabvpar: calls 840 and is all-in
*** RIVER *** [7c 9h 3h 9c] [3d]
wayabvpar said, "yep"
Ruddiger said, "wow"
*** SHOW DOWN ***
heyrocker: shows [9d 9s] (four of a kind, Nines)
wayabvpar: shows [Ah Ac] (two pair, Aces and Nines)
heyrocker collected 2940 from  pot

I KNEW I was beat on the turn, but I was so pissed that AA got cracked AGAIN that I was morbidly curious as to what did me in this time. In this case, he had a solid hand and played it perfectly (this was a 2+2 SnG, so I knew these were solid players). This one is my fault all the way...I could have lost half my stack instead of the whole thing.

In these next 2, I started as the chip leader early in a $10 SnG.

*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to wayabvpar [Ks Kc]
wayabvpar: calls 30
BluesLady: folds
Lynn1024: raises 180 to 210
Choocher: folds
holec85: folds
wyldbabs: folds
capricorne1: folds
burghguy: folds
goldhawk: folds
wayabvpar: raises 1780 to 1990 and is all-in
Lynn1024: calls 1470 and is all-in
*** FLOP *** [As Th Ad]
goldhawk said, "wow"
wayabvpar said, "of course"
*** TURN *** [As Th Ad] [Ts]
*** RIVER *** [As Th Ad Ts] [3h]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
wayabvpar: shows [Ks Kc] (two pair, Aces and Kings)
Lynn1024: shows [Kd Ah] (a full house, Aces full of Tens)
Lynn1024 collected 3405 from  pot

Again, can't really fault my opponent here, although there is no way I call a limp-reraise all in with AK...this is a dead giveaway for AA or KK, both of which are big favorites over AK. The funny thing is I didn't mean to limp- I was playing another screen and came back when the timer went off and I clicked too fast.

Ok, down to 280 chips now...extremely shortstacked. Next playable hand, I am all in...and it came quite soon.

*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to wayabvpar [As Tc]
Lynn1024: calls 30
Choocher: folds
capricorne1 said, "funny"
holec85: calls 30
wyldbabs: folds
capricorne1: folds
burghguy: folds
goldhawk: folds
wayabvpar: raises 250 to 280 and is all-in
BluesLady: folds
Lynn1024: folds
holec85: calls 250
*** FLOP *** [Jc 7h 2d]
*** TURN *** [Jc 7h 2d] [Th]
*** RIVER *** [Jc 7h 2d Th] [3h]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
wayabvpar: shows [As Tc] (a pair of Tens)
holec85: shows [Qh 2h] (a flush, Queen high)
holec85 collected 620 from  pot
goldhawk said, "unreal"

To compound matters, I was in the $11 rebuy tournament later (don't have the HH available). Got AA UTG, and raised to 60 (10/20 blinds), praying that some cowboy will snap me off with a big reraise (which is incredibly common in rebuy games). I get 2 (!!!) all ins, and I call them- JJ and AK. I am a big favorite over both of these hands, so it looks like I will get a quick triple up and be set for the foreseeable future.  Flop is rags, J on turn, rag on river, and I get to rebuy instead of tripling up.

Again, my opponents didn't play their hands THAT badly...the luck fairy just decided this is the week to kick me in the junk repeatedly.

[WayAbvPar]

Any samaritan's out there willing to go over some hand histories of mine and help me figure out where I'm going wrong?

Feel free to post some hands...I am no expert, but I would be happy to give you my analysis.

[Margalis]

There is a good reason to bet a draw on the river. It is an equity bet. People call down all sorts of dog shit.

This is where we disagree. Obviously it does depend on your opponent, but in general I find people won't call with low pairs with an Ace on board, because so many people play aces. If you have a pair in looser games ace is the one card you really don't want to see.

What is the point of checking?

To save 50 cents.

I believe you will get called with crap many more times than raised on the river by the suck-out that got there.  

Again, Q was a bad card. If you pot your opponent on a draw or any two face cards Q was a very bad card. Q,K and to lesser extent T are the three cards you really don't want to see here. If the final card was I rag I would say bet away.

Either way the main problem was the opponent hit their draw. But they had an open straight...it happens.

[Abagadro]

I just don't fear runner-runner staights and 3 out two-pairs enough to give up the +EV of betting on the river which TP/TK when no one has shown strength the entire hand.  If you play like that you will begin to see monster hands all over the board and give up way too many bets that would be called by worse hands.  I think check-calling is the single worst way to play poker in general.

[Rasix]

Had another up and down couple of days. Can't seem to break my current status of 30 up.  Got as high as 40 up but then I lost some and played a sit-n-go where I made a REALLY STUPID ALL IN.  You know, the ones where you bet heavy, gett reraised for all in, are looking a straight board, get a funny feeling in the back of your stomach, and then instead of doing the smart thing you go all in.   I swear, some of it was the table, it was some of the worst poker I've seen in a long time but just couldn't get the cards to do anything about it. In one hand alone, 4 people went all-in in one of the worst poker displays in recorded history (gotta find that hand).

Does anyone have recommendations for good pokers sites or boards with some decent hand analysis? I've been looking at the way I'm playing some of my hands and just can't help but think it's wrong but I don't know what I can do better.

[UD_Delt]

Maybe someone should try and convince Joe/Schild to open up a poker forum for us here so we can branch out a bit from a single thread into other topics. Then we can get into the hand histories a bit more without feeling bad about cluttering up a single thread with a bunch of quotes.

[Abagadro]

www.twoplustwo.com

Those are the best poker forums around. DO NOT go in there and post your latest bad beat as you will just get yelled at. No one is interested over there about talking about those. Post some interesting hands/decisions and you will get good feedback.

[Margalis]

I just don't fear runner-runner staights and 3 out two-pairs enough to give up the +EV of betting on the river which TP/TK when no one has shown strength the entire hand.  If you play like that you will begin to see monster hands all over the board and give up way too many bets that would be called by worse hands.  I think check-calling is the single worst way to play poker in general.

You are totally missing the point. You shouldn't fear runner-runner straights or 3 out 2 pairs UNLESS by the river there is a good chance your opponent made them. That's why you bet the flop and the turn.

When your opponent is on the draw, you should bet. When they have MADE the draw, you should check.

Betting on the river is not +EV if your opponent is on a draw and missed it, or on a draw and hit it. One way it's a fold, another way it's a raise.

Here is a question, given the 4 cards on the board, what is the one card you MOST don't want to see? Probably queen. Fills in a high straight, fills in a low straight, 2 pairs AQ and QJ.

Nobody (at least not me) is advocating check-calling every time you have top pair top kicker. Just this time, on the river, when a danger card hit and the opponent was likely on a draw.

[Margalis]

Does anyone have recommendations for good pokers sites or boards with some decent hand analysis? I've been looking at the way I'm playing some of my hands and just can't help but think it's wrong but I don't know what I can do better.

Two plus two is ok, if you can deal with the fact that the poker experts on it are hardly experts. If you go to rec.gambling.poker (newsgroup) you can get some good feedback but there is also a LOT of noise. Some really cool people post some interesting things sometimes. (More on that below)

In the end though, you learn by doing. If you are playing cheap tournies and/or low limits thats a good time to experiment.

An important thing is not confuse bad plays with beats. In the hand Abagadro and I are arguing about, the real problem was someone hit an unlikely draw.

The tough thing about learning poker is you can do the wrong thing 5 times in a row and it may work out great, or you can do the right thing 5 times in a row and it works out lousy. You have to ask yourself how you could have played differently.

The other thing, and this can NEVER be said enough times, is that your read on the players is super important and hand histories don't have that. Lots of starting players think that tells are really important. They have their place, but that isn't the same as having a read on a player.

I am reading a book by Cloutier and McEvoy right now, and in basically EVERY real-life example he says something like "I knew XXX was a great player, so it was easy for me to lay down my KK overpair when he reraised the flop." You also hear people talk about what a player is "capable of." Chan checked the straight to Seidel on every card, because he knew Seidel was capable of a big bluff raise. Should you check the nut straight on the flop and the turn? Not against every player, but against a player who will bluff big on scare cards? Sure.

That's my problem with hand histories, and my problem with Sklansky and his lame thought experiments that "assume typical players." You should be paying attention to the players. Even at low limits there are people who will play 27s, and people who will play any face card suited. Those are two different behaviors. Both stupid, but different. There are people who will bluff bet if you check the river and people who won't. It's stupid to "assume typical players" because you shouldn't have to make that assumption in real life.

If you post hand histories, it would be great to say what your read on the players was. If you didn't have a read, that was one of your problems.
---

You see that in the dicussion Abagadro and I are having. Would this player call with middle pair with an ace on the board? Who knows? But if you are at the table with them, it's your job to find out. Especially in NL or PL, if you make the right call you can double up or go home. I find a lot of the time how well I do in NL or PL is largely the base on 2 or 3 key decisions I made. There are very few plays in poker that are always correct or always incorrect.

Edit: The first chapter of "Championship No-Limit and Pot-Limit Holdem" is all about reading your opponents and nothing about actual cards or strategy. Limit does tend to be a lot more mechanical, but reading opponents still matters quite a bit.

[Mediocre]

Ah, the joys of William Hill and TotalBet:

Getting paid 18 dollars per hour to play for 5 hours a month is priceless.

Up 170 dollars in two hours at $1/$2.

[Mediocre]

The only hand that I had where it was somewhat questionable as to how to play today was a really fun one:  I got the nut straight on the flop.  The question was how to extract the most money out of it.  Tell me if I got as much as I could have, and what I should have done differently:

------HAND 61------
Game #111921482: Texas Hold'em Limit ($1/$2) - 2004/04/03 - 00:45:53 (GMT)
Table "Amethysts" Seat 3 is the button.
Seat 1: Ivie0408 ($25.25 in chips)
Seat 2: Cafc100 ($30 in chips)
Seat 3: Prot ($38.50 in chips)
Seat 4: Rusac ($78.75 in chips)
Seat 5: crowe ($40.75 in chips)
Seat 6: HyuStride ($123.25 in chips)
Seat 7: Howawoh sits out
Seat 8: skolem ($117.50 in chips)
Seat 9: Tiang2110 ($28 in chips)
Seat 10: smracine ($131 in chips)
Rusac: posts small blind $0.50
crowe: posts big blind $1
Tiang2110: posts big blind $1
----- HOLE CARDS -----
dealt to HyuStride [Kh Jd]
HyuStride: calls $1
skolem: raises $2
Tiang2110: calls $1
smracine: folds
Ivie0408: folds
Cafc100: folds
Prot: calls $2
Rusac: folds
crowe: calls $1
HyuStride: calls $1
----- FLOP ----- [9c Qh Td]
crowe: checks
HyuStride: checks
skolem: bets $1
Tiang2110: calls $1
Prot: calls $1
crowe: calls $1
HyuStride: calls $1
----- TURN ----- [9c Qh Td][2d]
crowe: checks
HyuStride: checks
skolem: checks
Tiang2110: checks
Prot: bets $2
crowe: folds
HyuStride: raises $4
skolem: folds
Tiang2110: folds
Prot: calls $2
----- RIVER ----- [9c Qh Td 2d][6h]
HyuStride: bets $2
Prot: calls $2
----- SHOW DOWN -----
HyuStride: shows [Kh Jd] (A Straight, King high)
Prot: mucks hand
HyuStride collected $26.25 from Main pot
----- SUMMARY -----
Total pot $27.50 Main pot $26.25 | Rake $1.25
Board [9c Qh Td 2d 6h]
Seat 1: Ivie0408 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: Cafc100 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: Prot (button) mucked
Seat 4: Rusac (small blind) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: crowe (big blind) folded on the Turn
Seat 6: HyuStride showed [Kh Jd] and won ($26.25) with A Straight, King high
Seat 8: skolem folded on the Turn
Seat 9: Tiang2110 (big blind) folded on the Turn
Seat 10: smracine folded before Flop (didn't bet)

[Margalis]

My 2 cents:

Preflop if the player raising is good I would throw this hand away a lot of the time, it's a trap hand. Obviously you aren't going to reraise. OK.

Flop:
Skolem raised before the flop, it's reasonable to think he will bet on the flop as well, or at least that SOMEONE will bet on the flop. With 4 other people in and one pre-flop raiser you are almost sure someone will bet.

Skolem goes immediately after you. If you raise and he re-raises others might fold. Even if he just calls now everyone else is facing an early position flop bettor AND a guy who raised pre flop, two people who probably both have good hands. So if you bet and Skolem just calls they may still fold. Also if Skolem bets they may put him on something like AK semi-bluff. A lot of times if someone bets preflop they bet postflop regardless of how hard they hit it.

Should you reraise him? That's the key question. The danger is you give away your monster and people fold, or else become check/folders on the turn.

Turn:
The turn is another totally safe card, your monster is still way ahead. I like the check still. Now prot bets and crowe folds. I would most likely still just call here. If Skolem has AK or AJ, 2 diamonds or something like that he may call one bet but not two. I would call and hope that on the river someone picks up some help.

When you raise you get 2 extra out of prot, but you maybe lose 2 from skolem and another 2 from Tiang. With the second diamond out that may not be a terrible play though. However I would probably just call and hope for another call or two behind me.

River:
The river probably didn't help anyone, unless they have 66 or something like Q6 suited. I would bet here, because while opponent may not have gotten help the river was not a scare card either. You can't check here after your raise on the turn because he will most likely check as well.

---
In limit in general you don't want to give away a big hand until the turn or river, because that's when the bets double. When you do decide to pop them with a reraise you want to sandwhich them so that a bunch of people call the raise, then feel compelled to call the reraise as well.

Those two ideas conflict here, because the flop was the perfect time to sandwhich people with a reraise.

Imagine if on the turn Skolem had bet again. That would be much better for you. Skolem calls, he gets a couple callers behind him, then you reraise. At this point it's one more bet to call, so they might call.

When you reraised nobody had called the original raise yet, making it easy for them to fold rather than call 2 bets.

---
What you could have done differently:

#1: Check-raise the flop. You are in the perfect position to check raise here. Skolem bets, everyone calls, finally you raise. Everyone will feel compelled to call again. So you may well be +$4 at this point. If Skolem raises again you will probably lose everyone else, but you have more of his money and might be able to get more action from him on the turn or river.

But on the turn what do you do? If you bet again the 2 probably didn't help anyone, so they may fold. If you check people may well check behind you, expecting you to check raise again. Then on the river the 6 probably doesn't help anyone either.

If Skolem had reraised you and you called what do you do on the turn. The 2 almost certainly didn't help him. He will probably call a bet but you probably won't see a lot more action from him unless he is a loose player.

If you have been a bit loose and people have soon you represent strong flops and then lose, a check-raise on the flop might work well. Then on the turn if you check people may put you on a straight draw and bet behind you. Then on the river you can just bet out.

#2: Call until the river.
With a flop like that I would guess a couple people are on draws, but you currently have the high straight. You want them to stick in. On the turn now someone may be on a flush draw. In limit you also want them to stick in. Someone on a draw may call one bet but they may not call 2.

The worst situation is you check raise the flop, Skolem reraises, everyone folds, and then Skolem won't give you any more action. So the key question is will Skolem cap the betting on the flop? If so will he keep betting? Do people really respect your raises?

If Skolem is the type of player who will go beserk on 2 pair or a set I like the flop check raise. It's win win. If Skolem just calls your raise everyone else will call as well. If Skolem reraises you you can get action from him on the turn and the river.

If Skolem is the type of player who will bet hard on a draw with 2 cards to go but not 1 I don't like checkraising the flop. He may reraise and scare others out, but then not give you action on the turn or river.

So the best case scenario is Skolem is the type of player who will only reraise your check raise with a made hand. In that case if he has a made hand you can get action from him, and if not and he calls everyone else calls as well.

If people are really respecting your raises I would call all the way, or if I though Skolem could check-raise then go dead. Otherwise I might check-raise the flop just because the position is so good, everyone else will be almost compelled to call. And the more they call, they more they feel compelled to call later.

If you check raise the flop and get some callers, when the second diamond comes down they may stay in because the pot is big. If they have a gutshot they may stay in. If they have a pair they may stay in hoping for trips or two pair. The pot may be too big for them to lay down those hands.  So they may at least call the turn.

---

So, the more I think about it the more I like check-raising the flop. If you acted immediately *after* skolem instead of before I would say check until he stops betting.

This is pretty similar to H/L games when you have the low hand and somebody else has the high. You want to trap the other players into calling as many raises as possible without scaring them. A player will call 1 bet twice much more often than 2 bets together, because their pot odds and pot committment increases after the first call. The flop was the perfect position to do this in. The bet on the turn shut out everyone.

[Mediocre]

#1: Check-raise the flop. You are in the perfect position to check raise here. Skolem bets, everyone calls, finally you raise. Everyone will feel compelled to call again. So you may well be +$4 at this point. If Skolem raises again you will probably lose everyone else, but you have more of his money and might be able to get more action from him on the turn or river.

But on the turn what do you do? If you bet again the 2 probably didn't help anyone, so they may fold. If you check people may well check behind you, expecting you to check raise again. Then on the river the 6 probably doesn't help anyone either.

If Skolem had reraised you and you called what do you do on the turn. The 2 almost certainly didn't help him. He will probably call a bet but you probably won't see a lot more action from him unless he is a loose player.

If you have been a bit loose and people have soon you represent strong flops and then lose, a check-raise on the flop might work well. Then on the turn if you check people may put you on a straight draw and bet behind you. Then on the river you can just bet out.

I thought about this, actually -- probably not as much as I should have, because in hindsight it seems like the right thing to do. :)  However, I had been playing tight enough the entire night that I never lost a single showdown at that table (I lost maybe one or two at another table).  My raises were getting a lot of respect, and with the rainbow non-threatening board I was worried that if I reraised I wouldn't get anyone for double bets.

In hindsight, though, the check-raise was the correct play.  I didn't think enough about the time between position of myself vis a vis the bettor.

#2: Call until the river.
With a flop like that I would guess a couple people are on draws, but you currently have the high straight. You want them to stick in. On the turn now someone may be on a flush draw. In limit you also want them to stick in. Someone on a draw may call one bet but they may not call 2.

The worst situation is you check raise the flop, Skolem reraises, everyone folds, and then Skolem won't give you any more action. So the key question is will Skolem cap the betting on the flop? If so will he keep betting? Do people really respect your raises?

I don't think Skolem would have reraised on the flop, though it's quite possible.  My raises were getting high respect, though.

On 4th street, that second diamond had me worried.  I know odds are in my favor vs a flush draw, but I'm not playing enough hands at this website (just taking advantage of the 5 hours) that I wanted to bet and destroy their pot odds to call with a flush draw.  I know I sacrificed a bit of profit, but I wanted to pretty much guarantee I won the pot.

Another thing I was scared of by 4th street was a fill-in card; a K or a J on the river which would possibly make me split the pot -- or, even worse, a J on board would have me lose to AK, a hand people at this table seemed to overplay.

I like your idea of the check-raise on the flop, but on the turn I was playing with a bit of fear on my side, attempting to guarantee myself the pot with the early raise.

If Skolem is the type of player who will go beserk on 2 pair or a set I like the flop check raise. It's win win. If Skolem just calls your raise everyone else will call as well. If Skolem reraises you you can get action from him on the turn and the river.

If Skolem is the type of player who will bet hard on a draw with 2 cards to go but not 1 I don't like checkraising the flop. He may reraise and scare others out, but then not give you action on the turn or river.

So the best case scenario is Skolem is the type of player who will only reraise your check raise with a made hand. In that case if he has a made hand you can get action from him, and if not and he calls everyone else calls as well.

If people are really respecting your raises I would call all the way, or if I though Skolem could check-raise then go dead. Otherwise I might check-raise the flop just because the position is so good, everyone else will be almost compelled to call. And the more they call, they more they feel compelled to call later.

If you check raise the flop and get some callers, when the second diamond comes down they may stay in because the pot is big. If they have a gutshot they may stay in. If they have a pair they may stay in hoping for trips or two pair. The pot may be too big for them to lay down those hands. So they may at least call the turn.

---

So, the more I think about it the more I like check-raising the flop. If you acted immediately *after* skolem instead of before I would say check until he stops betting.

This is pretty similar to H/L games when you have the low hand and somebody else has the high. You want to trap the other players into calling as many raises as possible without scaring them. A player will call 1 bet twice much more often than 2 bets together, because their pot odds and pot committment increases after the first call. The flop was the perfect position to do this in. The bet on the turn shut out everyone.

Speaking of H/L, that's what's so fun about playing Anaconda with my RL friends.  They simply cap the betting every round (.50 cent raises, max of $2 bet per round).

I only stick in if I've got A2345/6, sometimes will fold the 6 early on, and maybe go with Kings or higher full houses.  And it's consistent free money.

[Abagadro]

I'm not missing the point. I disagree with your premise.

When they have MADE the draw, you should check.

I'm sorry, this makes no sense. You don't know they made the draw. You have to put them on a range of hands.  Frankly, if you play like this, every river card will make some "monster under the bed" that you have to fear and you will give up way, way too much equity from people who will call you down with worse hands.  You don't fear the Q because the player would be an idiot to call the whole time for a runner-runner straight.  Was he an idiot here and got lucky making his runner-runner? Yes. Should you always fear every draw that gets there? No. You have to put people on a range of hands. A crappy ace is much more likely there.  Do you check every river where a 3 flush hits the board? Same concept and bad poker.  Heck, if a big draw gets there, a bet may make a better hand (like someone holding a crap two pair in the example we are talking about) fold.

If I have a good hand, I am betting every street until I get resistance.  You are going to call one bet on the river anyway if you check-call, so just bet it and fold to a raise if you believe he got there on his draw. If you get sucked out on, so be it, but playing like a scared bunny is not winning poker.

[Margalis]

You have to put them on a range of hands.  Frankly, if you play like this, every river card will make some "monster under the bed" that you have to fear and you will give up way, way too much equity from people who will call you down with worse hands.  You don't fear the Q because the player would be an idiot to call the whole time for a runner-runner straight.  

A queen doesn't complete just a runner runner straight. Did you even read the hand history? It happened to complete a runner-runner in THIS case, but there are other straights it completes as well. Would they have to be an idiot to stay in with AQ? With KT?

You can call my play weak-tight, but your advice of betting then folding to a reraise is the definition of weak tight.

What you meant to say is this:

"Bet and fold to a reraise, and hope nobody was paying attention."

Next time I'm in a pot with you, I'm on a draw and I miss what do think I'll do at the river? Answer: Bet with nothing and win the pot.

I repeat: that is the DEFINITION of weak tight. With my strategy you can end up MAYBE losing one bet. With your strategy you lose the entire pot to absolutely nothing.

Folding to a raise on the river is a bad play almost all the time. (Maybe if there was no action and you checked the entire way it would be ok) Not only could you be throwing away the best hand, but you're advertising your "scared bunny" mentality. I'd rather possibly lose one bet than the whole pot.

[Margalis]

A crappy ace is much more likely there.  Do you check every river where a 3 flush hits the board? Same concept and bad poker.  

Poker is situational. If 6 other people are in, I have top pair, and a 3 flush hits I DO check. Even if the 3 flush does NOT hit I still probably check the river. Top pair with 6 other people in is not going to win very often.

Do you fold to every reraise? If so that's the ultimate in losing poker. Beating you is as easy as clicking bet. A monkey could win all your money.

That's the problem with this always/never philosophy. Don't put words in my mouth. If we are going to take specific advice and generalize it, your "fold to any raise" advice is far far worse.

So let's not be idiots and claim I suggest you check EVERY river and EVERY scare card, or else we should also claim you suggest we fold to every raise. And out of those two moronic strategies yours is far more moronic.

This is a stupid argument. If you are interested in arguing with the words you put in my mouth, I'll just argue with the ones you put in mine.

Abagadro sez: "Always fold to a raise!"

Nice strategy. See you at the final table.

[Abagadro]

You seemed to have missed the part where I said to fold to the raise IF YOU BELIEVE THE PLAYER MADE THE HAND.  And yes, drawing to a gutshot in that situation with K10 is idiotic. Just calling AQ in that situation is idiotic. So you can't just assume the Q makes some moron's hand. You can't think every scare card makes a monster or you will be playing reactive, not agressive, which will kill you.  You don't ram and jam with oblivion, but you have to put people on hands other than ones that beat you (just like you can't put people automatically on hands you beat).

Most times I will call the raise anyways because you will win far more bets than you will give up doing this and you can just shake your head about giving up the extra bet to the goof who sucked out on you. Frankly, watching the river get checked through when you know the dope would have donated one more bet to you is far worse if you ask me. Maximizing wins will pay off more than minimizing losses because you should be playing tighter than the average player and will, on average, win more hands you take to the showdown than lose. So the one bet you win more often will ultimately make more money than the one extra bet you give up on ocaision to the suck-out.  It also player dependant. Do they play any ace? Are the addicted to any-suited cards?

If you have a read and think the player made the hand, you can fold to a raise (or check-call, it's not an absolutely no play, if there were 5 other people in the hand calling to the river and a flush comes, I'm checking it faster than I can say it, but not on that hand). Folding to a raise when you know you are beat is not weak-tight, it is smart poker. It will also let you 3-bet when you have a real good hand/nuts hand and someone takes a shot at you or makes a good second-bet hand. Checking the river any time an even remotely scary card hits is seriously weak tight and will cost you lots of money.

EDIT: I was composing this between your first and second posts and I believe I addressed the issue of multiple players in the hand. In the hand posted, this was not the case and the river card was not particuarly scary, so I believe your advice was wrong. Its just my opinion, which I don't claim to be sacrosanct.

[Margalis]

Anyway...enough retarded flaming with Abagadro...

To Mediocre:

If your table image was what you say, only bets sure things, check-calling the flop may have been alright. If you expect most people to fold there is no point in betting.

At some tables you can play only sure things for a long time and people won't catch on. But if people were generally respecting you checking there was probably ok. It all depends on how likely they are to fold.

So, the answer is, if they will fold, check. If they will call, bet :)

If I had just sat down at the table and that was my first hand, and I had no reputation and didn't recognize any players, I would check-raise the flop. But again, that's not how poker is played. At low limits you can often make money playing a purely formulaic, mechanical style. But that won't maximize your money.

[Anger]

Think I could have gotten more out of this one?  Giant was playing a pretty tight game, mike and Higs would call with just about anything.

*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Anger [Ad As]
mike3x: calls $0.25
yugor: calls $0.25
Giant1: calls $0.25
mavvy: folds
ZenKoan: folds
RiverArt: folds
Anger: calls $0.25
MrNoName: folds
Higs: checks
*** FLOP *** [9c 9h 9d]
Higs: checks
mike3x: checks
yugor: checks
Giant1: bets $0.25
Anger: raises $0.25 to $0.50
Higs: calls $0.50
mike3x: calls $0.50
yugor: folds
Giant1: raises $0.25 to $0.75
Anger: raises $0.25 to $1
Betting is capped
aF_iLuSHa is connected
Higs: folds
mike3x: folds
aF_iLuSHa has returned
Giant1: calls $0.25
*** TURN *** [9c 9h 9d] [Qh]
Giant1: checks
Anger: bets $0.50
Giant1: calls $0.50
*** RIVER *** [9c 9h 9d Qh] [8s]
Giant1: checks
Anger: bets $0.50
Giant1: calls $0.50
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Anger: shows [Ad As] (a full house, Nines full of Aces)
Giant1: mucks hand
Anger collected $6.10 from  pot

I figured most of them would stay in with that flop, so went ahead and raised.  When Giant reraised, I thought for a split second "Shit, does he have the last nine?".  Then I figured he was either trying to get me to think  exactly that, or that he was also holding a pocket pair.  Wasn't much left for me to do after that but bet and be called.

I wonder though, if I should have simply called on the flop and then raised on the Turn/River once bets had doubled.

*Edited to remove stupid statement.