Continuing from WT: A question about online poker

[Abagadro]

Just FYI, QQ and JJ are both category 1 hands in HPFAP.

I think QQ loses more money after the flop when you fall in love with it against heavy action or an overcard and don't dump it.

Registration is well worth it for pokertracker. Both because it is nice to have the big db and because it is a good product with good support so I feel good about paying for it.

Checking my stats, I raise 94% with QQ and have a 48% win rate on it.  It's my fifth best starter.

[WayAbvPar]

Forgot to mention this in my previous post- my buddy and I stole the idea of an Open Internet Challenge, and started last night. See below-

OIC Structure (for the uninitiated)

   Start at .50/1 with $50 and play until you have $100.
   Move to 1/2 and play until you have $200, it you bankroll falls to $50 you MUST drop down to .50/1 and work your way back up.
   Move to 2/4 and play until you have $300, if you fall to $100 drop to 1/2.
   Move to 3/6 and play until you have $500, if you fall to $150 drop to 2/4.
   Move to 5/10 and play until you have $1000, if you fall to $250 drop to 3/6.
   Move to 10/20 and play until you have $1500, if you fall to $500 drop to 5/10.
   Move to 15/30 and play until you have $2000, if you fall to $750 move 10/20.

Anyone else care to join us? More an exercise in intellectual masturbation than anything else, but it might be fun. I started last night before I had to take off, and worked my way up to $76. $1/$2 is in my sights! =)

[Abagadro]

I've been tempted to try something like that just for a goof, but I'm worried the focus on bankroll would alter my playing (for the worse).  Who knows, maybe it would improve it.

[UD_Delt]

OIC Structure (for the uninitiated)

 Start at .50/1 with $50 and play until you have $100.
 Move to 1/2 and play until you have $200, it you bankroll falls to $50 you MUST drop down to .50/1 and work your way back up.
 Move to 2/4 and play until you have $300, if you fall to $100 drop to 1/2.
 Move to 3/6 and play until you have $500, if you fall to $150 drop to 2/4.
 Move to 5/10 and play until you have $1000, if you fall to $250 drop to 3/6.
 Move to 10/20 and play until you have $1500, if you fall to $500 drop to 5/10.
 Move to 15/30 and play until you have $2000, if you fall to $750 move 10/20.

Sounds fun but too aggressive. Moving up with a bankroll of only 50x BB is a bit too risky for me. I could probably handle it up till about 2/4 but then dropping $300 playing way over my bankroll would just feel like too much of a failure for me. I'll stick with my current safe plan:

 Start at .50/1 with $150 and play until you have $300.
 Withdraw initial $150.
 Stay at .50/1 and play until you have $600, it you bankroll falls to $0 you MUST suck so quit playing.
 Move to 1/2 and play until you have $1200, if you fall to $400 drop to .5/1.
 Move to 2/4 and play until you have $1800, if you fall to $1000 drop to 1/2.
 Move to 3/6 and play until you have $3000, if you fall to $1500 drop to 2/4.
 Move to 5/10 and play until you have $6000, if you fall to $2500 drop to 3/6.
 Withdraw $1500 and repeat previous step.

I settled into this gameplan about 2 months ago after dabbling around for a few months playing too many different games and formats. I've finally got a decent grip on playing Limit Hold-Em and plan to stick with it. I'm currently at step 3 w/ $480. I got antsy and jumped up to $1/$2 at $400, ran up to $550, then back down to $450 before settling back down at .50/1. Hopefully in the future I can avoid that early step up and stick w/ the gameplan.

This is my gameplan on Poker Stars at least. I have some money on GamingClub that I use whenever I get a tournament itch and some money on Party Poker that I use to play Sit & Go's or just to dabble when I get bored. I got seriously lucky with free money on both of those sites so I've never actually made a deposit on either.

[WayAbvPar]

I've been tempted to try something like that just for a goof, but I'm worried the focus on bankroll would alter my playing (for the worse).  Who knows, maybe it would improve it.

See, that is why I think this will be fun- I think of it as a $50 investment (like a tourney fee), and I will keep it separate (on paper) from my actual bankroll. Treating it more like tourney money than anything.

Of course, if I run it up to a couple of grand, I will probably jerk 90% of it out and pay some bills, but that is a ways down the road.


In other news- got a call from a buddy a few minutes ago. He may have a seat for me in a home tournament tonight. He (in like his 2nd or third tourney ever) took 2nd last time, so I am hoping I can bring some of my experience to bear and mop up. The more likely result is wash out first, and have to reevaluate how I see myself as a player!

[UD_Delt]

He (in like his 2nd or third tourney ever) took 2nd last time, so I am hoping I can bring some of my experience to bear and mop up. The more likely result is wash out first, and have to reevaluate how I see myself as a player!

More likely the opposite unless they are some serious poker players. My friends and I play every other thursday. There is usually 6-8 of us and we play 3 $10 Sit&Go NLHE tournies. After the first night when I took 1st, 2nd, and 1st I started playing down a level to make the games more fun. Since it's amongst good friends it's more about having fun than it is winning money and having me winning 2/3 wouldn't be much fun for anyone else.

My friends all watch the WSOP and WPT and got their lessons from the 1% of hands they actually show on the broadcasts. Just wait for your premiums and bleed them. It's best to not go all-in since that usually scared them off, just make pot sized bets each street and you'll have them all-in by the river. If you don't get premiums just fold, fold, fold and you'll eventually find yourself heads up since these tourny's are usually over long before the rising blinds put a dent in your stack.

Also, if they are inexperienced players watch for the obvious tells. The most obvious is leaning forward or back as they think about what to do or between actions. Forward they are excited about having a good hand, backward they are nervous about what everyone else is doing. Also watch for the glance to the chips after the flop. That usually means they are thinking about how much to bet since they caught at least part of the flop.


I should note that all of the above is based on small home tournies and won't apply if you're playing with 20+ people. If that's the case then pretend I'm not here since I've had horrible results in larger tournies.

[Margalis]

You have to raise with QQ preflop. Raise when you have the best hand. 95% of the time when you have QQ you have the best preflop hand.

After the flop if you see an A or a K slow down.

Get your money in when you have the best of it.

Sure, an A or a K might come down. Then again, if you have AA the flop might come 3 of a suit you don't have.

Last night I sat a table for 45 minutes without winning, picked up QQ, raised preflop and was reraised, capped, flop came down with a Q and no A or K, kept betting, won, and finished up for the night on that ONE hand.

No matter what you hold, there is a decent chance you will end up losing. If you won't raise with QQ, what will you raise with?

[UD_Delt]

If you won't raise with QQ, what will you raise with?

Like I said, lately I've been playing very weak-tight pre-flop. I've only been raising when first in or with K's or A's. Raising QQ from the BB with 3 limpers already in and knowing you won't get any of the 3 to fold just didn't seem to feel right.

Looking back it would have been the right play since I was certainly ahead at the time. In the long run though it would have just cost me an additional small bet.

I do need to get out of the weak-tight mode though since after thinking about it I was definately running better 2 weeks ago when I was coming in with a raise on most hands. The last week has been barely break even poker. I think it was the result of moving up in limits and also taking a number of bad beats like the set of Q's. IE... the other hand where I lost a set of J's to a guy who played his 3h6h flush draw to the river and hit it. I got used to taking those beats at .50/1 but moving up to 1/2 when the pots are twice as big ($20+) put me into a mode I didn't want to be.

Good thing I made that post since it helped me look at my play a little more. Sorry for sharing the bad beat but thanks for the advice...

I think we need a poker forum here...

[WayAbvPar]

Good thing I made that post since it helped me look at my play a little more. Sorry for sharing the bad beat but thanks for the advice...

Discussing and dissecting play afterwards is a great way to sharpen your game. I have learned a ton from discussions here and on other sites. Well worth the 'I hate the way you played that hand!' posts- a small shot to the ego helps open your eyes to a possible leak (at least, that is how it works for me). Obviously playing like a robot will only get you so far, but it is best to be well versed in the basics before playing like Gus Hansen (who would drive me CRAZY if I had to play against him).

[Madman]

Even though I don't have much experience, I would have to agree with everyone saying you should have raised preflop with QQ. I know for a fact that if I had the 84d hand, I definately would have stayed in on a BB preflop bet, but I would have folded out if anyone had raised.

I would also have to say that the 84d guy was probably a little nuts, because he should have been able to tell you had the 3 of a kind with all the reraising you were doing although you don't say the amounts.

I had something similiar happen to me the other day and I haven't played since either. I had 99 in the hole, raised preflop (raised too little, but its a low pair), was reraised (someone going all in for about 7-8 bucks) and called with one other guy still in, so it's me and two others. Flop came down as 8s 9c Ks, so I am sitting on the 3 of a kind, it checks to me and I come out betting but betting fairly cheap (5 bucks) the guy not all in called and turn came out 7c, the guy bets the 5 bucks and I call. The river comes up Qs and the guy bets 21 bucks right off the bat. I hadn't actually realized there was a possible flush sitting on the board off the river, so I called right away and got busted by the flush.

The guy who won didn't even have a pair on the board, he was holding an A3s. The guy who went all in was going for the flush but he was looking for hearts and ended up having a pair of kings. The moral of the story for me is that I should have been betting much more on the flop and turn to try and push the guy out before he made his river flush.

Edit - I will also agree with Way about discussing and dissecting your play after the fact. It has helped me realize a few things that I should either be doing or not be doing. But of course I am a still rather inexperienced when it comes to playing holdem for money, but it's all fun.

[Rasix]

I bought in for some to PokerStars.  At first I started on the SNGs, as they seemed like a good way to learn.  One thing I've picked up though in 18 player SNGs is they teach a style that's so aggressive you'll lose in the long run during regular play. It seems that everyone's racing to get a big pot heading into the final table where the blinds just start getting silly.

Then I started playing .25/50 limit and .50/1 limit. I did better at these tables and actually made some money back that I had lost in the SNGs (only placed in one that I tried).   Then, I got stupid and played some no limit at the .5/1 table.  I lost 2 big pots to river chasers.  It was really hard to swallow and I've seemily been playing on tilt since.

I'm still having problems laying down good hands when I get that feeling that perhaps my 3 queens are beaten by the one king that's showing and the guy that's betting like the word's about to end.  There's also the problem that at the low dollar tables, seemily everyone limps into the pot and won't hestiate to call the raise.  Then you get some jackass that has his low cards hit a favorable flop effectively killing your legitly good preflop hand.  

I dunno, I like Hold'Em so far.  I'm not particularly good at it yet.  I still see too many flops, hold my cards too long when I've got shit, and can't back down even though part of my brain is yelling "GET OUT". I have gotten better though: I pretty much consistantly am near the money on SNGs where before it'd be 50/50 chance that I'd even make the final table.  I'm not ready to give up on it yet, but I'm perhaps thinking tennis or xbox might be more economical in my future.

[Madman]

Although I have only played the .50/1 NL table once, but I don't particularly like that table much because people seem much more willing to chase to the river unless you are betting really big. I much prefer the 1/2 NL tables because people seem to play a little tighter (which sometimes helps my slightly loose play) and are generally unwilling to chase to the river unless it's for low stakes.

Plus, I find myself playing even looser at the .50/1 table because I keep thinking 'Hey its only a buck or two on that preflop raise), instead of thinking 'Hey that is 4 bucks on the preflop raise, I better get out,' at the 1/2 buck tables.

I also agree with Way when he said he actually prefers the NL tables because he can bust people who are playing bad hands to the river. Plus I feel that with my play style I would be much more tempted to chase to the river if there was a limit on the bets.

[Pig Destroyer]

I have a question about how much time you guys spend playing each session.  Do you have a set limit where you say, "If I make this much, I will stop", or do you set aside a certain amount of time?

I seem to mix and match a bit, but if I find I am down when I am ready to stop playing I try desperately to at least get back to even, which usually ends up with the result of me losing more money.  

Take this morning for example, I deposited $300 into Party.  This is the money I am making my "run" with (I love huge tax returns), I sat down at the $25 buy in No Limit table and promptly lost my buy in in like 15 minutes.  Then I decided to play some $1/$2 to catch up a bit.  Where I lost another $25.   Then I decided to play a $10 SnG and finished 4th, about 15 chips out of the money.  Just a terrible run and now I am considerably behind.

These are games I play often, none of them are new to me, I was just playing like shit.  I know I should have stopped after the NL table because I could just feel the tilt writhing in me.  But I am retarded.   I did win back about $15 this afternoon before work started, which puts me down a total of around $45.

So, when do YOU say when?

[Abagadro]

Ok Wayabvpar. I took up the challenge and am taking a beating at .5/1. Usually goes something like this. I have KK, raise, cold call from 5 people. I bet raise it all the way against a non-scary board and someone who called all the way with bottom pair hits their trips on the river.


EDIT:  Okay, I have bailed on the challenge in a record 1 day. Micro drives me nuts and it's not worth the aggravation. :)

[Pig Destroyer]

Typical suckout at low limits.  Just suck it up and win it all back, it can't happen everytime he calls with crap.  When he is down to the felt it will feel that much better.

[Margalis]

Very important point: Don't raise to get people to fold, RAISE FOR VALUE.

Poker, especially non-tournament limit poker, is NOT about winning pots. It's about return on investment. (Unless you have a very low bankroll and will die to any variance)

Say you have AA and all 8 people call. You should cap the betting pre-flop if you can, even knowing that you will probably lose. Why? Because when you DO win you win huge, and you will win more than your fair share of times.

You are getting 8 to 1 on your money, but have a much better than 1/8 shot of winning.

If I have QQ against 5 callers I will cap the betting, knowing I will probaby lose. Because I will win more than 1/5 times and am getting 5:1 on my money. With QQ against 5 callers I can probably win 1/3 of the time or more.

Raising to get people out makes sense in a tourney or against people who play tight and will fold hands that had a decent chance of turning into winners. If you are ahead raising to get people out doesn't make sense. You WANT the people who are behind to call. That's more money for you.

Don't worry about winning or losing pots. Return on investment is what matters. In the long run, raising when you have the best of it (or when you have a good shot of ending up with the best of it) is how to make money.

----

As far as winning at low limits, my advice is the same. If you are ahead, bet. If you are behind, fold. If you have AQ, raise. If you miss the flop, fold. The most important thing is don't bet unless you hit the flop hard, don't call unless you have tons of outs. (Because you are behind and plenty of other people have outs as well - what happens when you make your straight and that same card is the third of a suit?)

Making money at low limits is easy. And the nice thing is, for that money you can experiment and figure out what works. If you play low limits like a NL tournament you will lose money hand over fist. Just wait till you are head and go crazy. Not many fancy plays, not many bluffs or traps, no betting to intimidate. Just wait till you hit something good then bet like a maniac and hope for the best.

----

How long to play:

If you feel frustrated or on tilt, stop immediately. Other than that as long as you like. The second you find yourself thinking "oh, fuck it I'll just call" you should quit.

[UD_Delt]

Ok. I have new question after last night. I worked on getting back into tight-aggressive mode pre and post-flop again. For the most part it was ok but I was getting horrible cards and a lot of suckouts. So, for 4 hours at the .50/1 tables I lost $18. I played 2 hours at Stars 6 man tables which was a $25 loss and 2 hours at Party 10 man tables for a $7 win.

My question is when you're drawing to the nuts. Is it right to bet out and/or raise/re-raise when you are getting good odds on your money. Example, you are playing Axs from the button and limp in. Flop comes with 2 of your suit on a non-paired board. So, you are now drawing to the nut flush. There are 5 people in the pot, UTG bets out and it's called around to you. Should you call or raise in this situation knowing that it's 90% that all 5 will call your bet? Your odds are 2:1 against hitting the flush but you're getting 5:1 on your money.

I've been pushing the pot whenever this situation comes up but last night it cost me money as very few of my draws ever made it there. It was far less than the expected 1 out of 3 that should make. Should I back off on trying to maximize the pot when I am drawing to the nuts w/ good odds or should I keep pushing knowing the probability should come through and bring things back around eventually?

[Abagadro]

Your odds are 2:1 against hitting the flush but you're getting 5:1 on your money.

You answered your own question.  If you can get 5 people to call 2 bets on a check raise, you should do it. It is also a bit dependent upon position. You can raise to try to get a free (really 1/2 priced) card if you are in late position.  If you check raise the flop, you might get many to fold which hurts your implied odds or they may fold on the turn when you do hit, therefore reducing your win when you could have potentially check raised the turn for multiple BBs. They may also fold to a turn bet if you don't hit, which is good, because you are likely getting better hands to fold.   As always, depends on the players and type of table you are playing on.

My default policy is not to check raise draws like that, but just to bet out with them if I am in early position and raise them if I am in late position and there are enough people who will call the raise to meet my odds of hitting.  Maybe not optimum play or varied enough, but at LL you really don't need to do much of that. You will go through LONG, excrutiating runs where your flopped four flushes and open-enders will not hit.  Expensive yes, but you still have to play to the odds.


To follow up on my OIC debacle of last night, I have officially foresworn micro limit poker. I could adjust my play style to fit it, but what's the point as I can win more in one hand at higher limits than an entire week of micro.  I should play down there just to get my steaming under control as the beats are constant, but I would rather run over the O-8 games (which I did last night while grinding in the .5/1 game). Playing O-8 and HE at the same time is an interesting mental exercise.

[WayAbvPar]

EDIT: Okay, I have bailed on the challenge in a record 1 day. Micro drives me nuts and it's not worth the aggravation. :)

Chicken! =P

Grinding through the first couple levels might be annoying, but I think the entire exercise is interesting. I guess you could start at $2/$4 or so and work up from there; I just like the small investment of $50 to start.

Playing O-8 and HE at the same time is an interesting mental exercise.

LOL- Agreed. The first time I ever did that I nearly broke my head. Another fun one is Omaha High and 0/8 at the same time...watching all your nut low draws get there on the high board will drive ya batty!

Re- Nut flush draws- I may occasionally bet out with them from early position (rare), but I almost never raise them unless there are only 1 or 2 folks left (who I may be able to drive out with a river bet). Draw hands thrive on implied odds, and betting extra before the hand is made cripples the implied odds (it is a nice change up play, however).

Played in the home tourney to which I was invited last night. Only 7 starters @ $25 a head, so the money wasn't too big. Played tight for the first few rounds until I got a feel for the table, then kicked into normal tourney mode. My early tight play made it simple for me to steal quite a few pots with small holdings and keep my stack afloat.

First turning point was against the buddy I came with- Held QTo on the button- I make it $300 to go (3XBB), my buddy in the small blind bumps it to $600, and BB folds. I have known this guy since high school, and he isn't above running a bluff at me (although I found out later that he rarely plays a hand against me any more without cards, since he is now intimidated by all my recent poker experience! LOL), so I call. Flop comes Q high rainbow. He bets $300. I like my hand, but am not thrilled with my kicker, so I call him. Next card is a blank. He bets out $500, and I call (I have top pair, and he isn't betting hard enough when compared to the pot to scare me away). River is a blank, and we both check. He rolls over AK, and I take down a decent sized pot (we started with 2k in chips, so this was a good pot).

Biggest hand of the night- I get QQ in the bb, and raise it the minimum after two limpers (since I am getting very little action on my bigger raises, and I want to get paid); both limpers call. Flop comes Q2J, and I am reasonably content with my hand =). I check it. Bet is $500 (about 2/3 the pot). Other limper folds, and I hesitate for a few seconds and reluctantly call (I would like to thank the Academy...). Turn card is another duck, giving me a boat and putting a flush draw on the board. I quickly check. He goes all in, and I call before he can get his money in the pot. My buddy says "Wow, that was quick" (about my call of a scary all in bet), as I roll over my ladies. Monster pot, and I get the chip leader.

We eventually bust my buddy, and it is heads up. (tourney pays 2 spots, + a $15 bounty on the first elimination). We duel for a bit, and I steal 3 or 4 pots in a row with preflop raises (I have about a 2-1 chip lead). Last hand- I am dealt KdQd, and I raise it to $600 (3xbb). He calls, and we see a flop- AJ5 rainbow. He bets $500, which is less than 1/2 the pot. I figure he isn't overly impressed with his hand (I think he would have either checked raised or bet out bigger with an A), so I call him, hoping to spike a T and end this. Next card is a 7 (completing the rainbow). He bets the same $500, and I think about it for a few seconds and call- the pot is getting big enough that I really want to see if I can river him, with the added bonus that I MIGHT have the best hand. River is a Q. He shoves the rest of his stack in ($1600+). Bugger...did that help him more than it helped me? Is he playing QJ? AQ? KT? I ponder the possibilities for a good minute or two...the pot is huge, and a fold gives him the chip lead. I finally decide to call him. He rolls over J8, and I win the tourney. BIG exhalation of relief.

[Margalis]

My question is when you're drawing to the nuts. Is it right to bet out and/or raise/re-raise when you are getting good odds on your money.

If you REALLY are getting good odds. Important things to remember are the "nuts" might not be the nuts. What if the third suited card you need also pairs the board?

If you have an Ace high flush going and two overcards I would bet for sure. If you have the ace as an overcard I would most likely also bet, but I might probably would not reraise for fear that some people would fold. On a hand like that you either want everyone to fold or you want everyone to call.

A big mistake people make is they bet hoping for their key card, hit it and still lose. For example a straight beaten by a higher straight.

But in general if there are a lot of callers and you are 4 to a nut flush I would bet, if you miss you got unlucky.

[Abagadro]

You will also trip a lot of people up betting with a draw and so many people play weak-tight that they can't even conceive of doing it. I have been paid off a lot when I bet the draw and then keep on betting when it hits. You often get raised and get a 3-bet in against someone bluffing or playing a baby-flush.  Check-calling a four-flush board, check-calling a four-flush turn and then betting out on the river when the flush hits screams FLUSH and you won't get much action. If you go for the CR you will often get checked through at the LL.

My favorite is when I was playing at the Mandalay. I flopped a nut flush draw. Bet the flop. Call, call. Bet the turn with no flush. Call Call. Flush comes on the river. Bet.  Guy looks at me and flat out asks: "You bet the flop and turn right?"  I say "Ya".  Okay "I'll raise".  3-bet.  Call.  Stack chips.  I know that is what a lot of people think in these situations, but they rarely do it out loud.

[UD_Delt]

Man I had another horrible night. That's about a 6 sessions in a row that  haven't posted a decent win.

I was the king of getting sucked out last night. Lost on 2 sets, one to a backdoor flush and the other to a straight. Lost every top pair I played on the river it seemed. Lost most of my pocket pairs to garbage hands, ie... KK loses to a J high flop when other guy rivers another J. Lost AQ with an A on the flop to a passive AK. And on and on....

The hands I lost while putting money in behind the whole time are the following. Again, if you have the time or inclination let me know what you think.

I'm dealt As10h and it folds around to me on the button. I raise, SB folds, BB calls. Flop comes all low hearts. BB checks, I check. Turn brings an A. BB bets, I raise, BB calls. River brings a 4th heart to give me the 10 high flush. BB checks, I bet, he raises, I call. He shows AhKh for the flopped nut flush.

I'm in the BB and dealt 72o, ready to fold to any bet. UTG limps, 1 other limper + SB completes. Flop comes 877. Lucky flop for the worst hand. SB checks, I bet, UTG calls, Fold, SB Folds. It's now heads up. Turn brings another 8. UTG will almost always call the small bet if he has over cards to the board so I think I'm still good. I bet, he again calls. Turn is a low blank. I bet, he raises, I call. He shows 10-8 off.

The other two were while I was playing AQ and KQ flopped an A and a K respectively. I bet out and lead the betting every street with my top pair second kicker and never get raised. At showdown someone pulls out AK to beat my kicker. I don't think those I could have played any differently. At the worst if raised I probably would have just lost more money so I should be thankful they were so passive.

[Madman]

I'm dealt As10h and it folds around to me on the button. I raise, SB folds, BB calls. Flop comes all low hearts. BB checks, I check. Turn brings an A. BB bets, I raise, BB calls. River brings a 4th heart to give me the 10 high flush. BB checks, I bet, he raises, I call. He shows AhKh for the flopped nut flush.

I'm in the BB and dealt 72o, ready to fold to any bet. UTG limps, 1 other limper + SB completes. Flop comes 877. Lucky flop for the worst hand. SB checks, I bet, UTG calls, Fold, SB Folds. It's now heads up. Turn brings another 8. UTG will almost always call the small bet if he has over cards to the board so I think I'm still good. I bet, he again calls. Turn is a low blank. I bet, he raises, I call. He shows 10-8 off.

I think you just got suckered on the first hand there. When you raised on the button, the BB probably figures you are holding Ax, he checks the nut flop to keep you in the game and when the A comes on the turn he knows he has you set. He bets (you should figure he has an A now), you raise (thinking you have the high pair), he calls. With the heart coming down on the river he check bets you knowing that he still has the A high flush, so the only thing that can beat him is a boat, four of a kind or a straight flush. You don't mention that there are any pairs on the board, so he probably knows he has the winning hand, he checks to you, you bet and he raises then you call and lose. I am just guessing here, but I think your agressiveness preflop gave the game away and when the A comes on the turn he plays into your agressiveness and lets you build the pot for him.

Bah - I am an idiot. I think you just got overconfident on the second hand. You figured that the 7's full of 8's would win the pot. You don't mention your the amount of your bets, so I have to assume they aren't all that big which keeps UTG in the game after the flop with his two pair. When his boat comes in on the turn he lets you lead the way and then takes you.

[UD_Delt]

For the second hand after the turn the board was 8778. So, my 7 gave me 7's full. His 8 gave him 8's full. We both only played a single card on the board...

[shiznitz]

I'm in the BB and dealt 72o, ready to fold to any bet. UTG limps, 1 other limper + SB completes. Flop comes 877. Lucky flop for the worst hand. SB checks, I bet, UTG calls, Fold, SB Folds. It's now heads up. Turn brings another 8. UTG will almost always call the small bet if he has over cards to the board so I think I'm still good. I bet, he again calls. Turn is a low blank. I bet, he raises, I call. He shows 10-8 off.

As for the second hand, I think you might have written it up wrong. I don't see how you managed to lose with a full house against a 10-8 off unless the river was a 10 and he pulled the higher boat. Unless I am reading it wrong.

Delt had 7s over 8s while the other guy had 8s over 7s.

[Madman]

Yeah yeah, I realized that about 5 minutes after I wrote it. I edited my previous post to make it clear that I am an idiot.

Edit - My analysis of those two hands may very well be incorrect, so take it with a grain of salt.

[ArtificialKid]

Hey, so in a brilliant move Antigua challenged the U.S. restrictions against online gambling in WTO court, which ruled the restrictions unfair:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/6/36518.html

Should have interesting results if upheld.

[WayAbvPar]

Thanks for the link, AK. Hopefully it leads to some relief down the road. Legalize it and skim a little off the top, Uncle Sam.

I'm dealt As10h and it folds around to me on the button. I raise, SB folds, BB calls. Flop comes all low hearts. BB checks, I check. Turn brings an A. BB bets, I raise, BB calls. River brings a 4th heart to give me the 10 high flush. BB checks, I bet, he raises, I call. He shows AhKh for the flopped nut flush.

That is tough. I like your raise on the turn- it gives you some good information, namely, that he isn't overly concerned with the flush on the board. This should set warning bells off in your head, and send you into check/call mode at the very least. I am not a fan of the river raise, since there are 4 cards that beat your flush, and all of them are in the 'playable' range. Tread carefully.

I'm in the BB and dealt 72o, ready to fold to any bet. UTG limps, 1 other limper + SB completes. Flop comes 877. Lucky flop for the worst hand. SB checks, I bet, UTG calls, Fold, SB Folds. It's now heads up. Turn brings another 8. UTG will almost always call the small bet if he has over cards to the board so I think I'm still good. I bet, he again calls. Turn is a low blank. I bet, he raises, I call. He shows 10-8 off.

That is just a bad suckout...it happens to everyone (especially ME!). If you happened to catch last night's WPT broadcast, there was a godawful suckout that looked really familiar to me- A7 suited goes all in, and is called by AA. 7 on the flop, 7 on the river, and the bullets get cracked. It was just like watching myself play online (when seeing wired aces, I immediately start guessing how I will get sucked out on...it is kind of a mini-game).

[Abagadro]

First hand.  My question focuses mostly on what you put him on that you could push your marginal hand so hard.   First, I think you are overvaluing A10o a bit here. It is a dominated hands in most circumstances, although short-handed it plays ok.  The button raise pre-flop is ok for nothing else but to steal the blings or get heads up.  When the flop comes down all one suit and the guy checks, this should be a major warning sign. Most people will take a shot with a bet regardless of what they have to try to steal it right there against a scary board like that.  When the A comes and he bets, what did you put him on? I think you have to assume he has at least an A to make a turn bet like that. There is a 1 in 3 shot it is the Ah first of all, so he has the redraw also even if you have him outkicked. You are behind a made flush and also behind to AKo, AQo, AJo, Ax for two pair, etc.  You are only ahead of about 5 or 6 hands of Ax wihtout the two pair. I think the raise is too aggressive.  A call might be worth it, but there are only 2 1/2 BB in the whole pot (3 with his bet).  Those aren't good enough odds for me and I fold.

The river brings the four flush and you only have a 10. You are thefore behind 4 higher hearts. He has shown he has at least an A or a made flush. Made flush would have re-raised you on the turn, so you have to figure you are either WAY ahead or WAY behind.  If I'm still around I check the river through for the freebie showdown instead of walking into the CR. I wouldn't call the raise either.

You walked into a monster, but there were many, many other hands that had you beat.

What did you put him on that justified your play?

Second Hand: Thats just an unfortunate trap hand that happens out of the blinds. Once the second 8 hits and someone stays around, you have to slow down at a minimum instead of assuming they have overcards. Other than that, played it fine.

[Rasix]

Well, I've been trying the .5/1 limit with a 50 dollar buy in and so far it was going fine.  Yesterday I ended 15 bucks up and by the next day at lunch I was 25 up total.  

Then it was last night. It started off OK, I went a little down as I lost hands, mostly to my cards not hitting at all on the turn and losing my blinds and preflop calls.  Then I got on a good role, I had won all 6 of the showdowns I had been involved in, but I just couldn't get anyone to fold with even very agressive betting and them having SHIT for cards.

Then, a low point hit, I lost a hand I was pretty sure I was going to win because a river chaser hit his card when I went in with AA.  Then it was tilt time and for the next 10 minutes I couldn't hit any cards, was making really bad calls, and eventually quit out at 10 bucks down from my previous balance (still 15 up).

I'm getting frustrated with low limit because BAD POKER WINS.  People clinging on to their low pair praying for the turn or river seems to pan out more times than not to people carrying actually legit cards.

Overall, I do see myself playing better. For once I was actually bowing out of the small blind when I had jack for cards instead of buying in. I'd actually fold the big blind on raises when I had nothing.  Baby steps, but I can see myself getting better even if I can't work on reading people because these low limit bastard river runners are impossible to interpret (I swear, they either have really good cards or are just praying for the river. They don't play you as a person at all. ).

[UD_Delt]

To put the first hand in context, which I should have done to begin with, it was at a $1/$2 6 max table. At the time I think we were playing 5 handed. I had just come off a big pot ,my single big win last night, that I won on Pocket A's. The BB seemed like a decent player other than he fervently defended the blinds. If he was the BB he was going to play the hand regardless of who raised or how many raises were coming. He also made a lot of feeler bets where he would bet out and fold to a raise or check the next street if called.

The raise pre-flop I knew I wouldn't steal with but it would let him know I had big cards and if the flop came high I thought I'd be able to take it right there.

With his turn bet on the A I figured him for a small pair and thought it was a feeler bet. I also didn't figure him for a heart as I thought he would bet the draw on the flop. After he called my raise I figured him for having played Ax where his x was the small pair and he had 2 pair but only called since he was worried about the 4 flush hitting and not having a heart.

Once the 4 flush hit I thought I would have had it with any heart. Once he raised me I knew I had totally screwed up the hand but I called anyway.

That was my thought process as I played it out and as you can see it was totally and completely wrong. I just assumed from the start that he didn't have a hand and was just defending his blind. I was wrong...

[UD_Delt]

I swear, they either have really good cards or are just praying for the river. They don't play you as a person at all.

You are dead on here. I still make the mistake of thinking I'm building a table image so my raises will get respected. It never works. On the flip side it pays to be a rock because people don't pay attention any way and will still pay you off even if you only play monsters. Of course you have to get the starting cards and they have to hold up to be able to get that to work.

[WayAbvPar]

I'm getting frustrated with low limit because BAD POKER WINS. People clinging on to their low pair praying for the turn or river seems to pan out more times than not to people carrying actually legit cards.

Bad poker might win some pots, but good poker wins money. The important thing to remember is that it isn't who wins the most pots; it is all about winning the money. If you play tight aggressive poker, you will lose some small pots to crazy suckouts . However, when your big hands DO stand up, the pots are huge because you are jamming away with your monster hand and they chase everything to the river.

As an example- I was grinding away at my OIC in the .5/1 tables. I lost pot after pot after pot to crappy suckouts, and finished down $20 (20 big bets!) $1 or $2 at a time. Bad run of cards combined with some bad luck. The good news is I will be back again to play the same good poker, and it will only take me 2 or 3 decent pots to be back to snuff and headed north again.

An example of a HUGE pot (to which I was only a witness)- betting capped on every street- a flush and a straight are possible. 2 maniacs go to showdown for a $35 pot (35 BIG bets in a pot!)- one shows a straight, the other shows 2 PAIR! How this chimp could cap the betting all the way to the river when any straight, flush or set beats him is beyond me. However, he and his ilk are the ones who make this little game profitable for us.

[Rasix]

Yah, it's funny what people will take to river when it's a flush board and you've flopped an ace high flush.  I generally can get one or two people to tag along for the ride. I'll only really bow out if I know I'm holding a low flush (but I really don't call the blinds with shitty suited stuff like most do).

I'll probably keep ending up on the positive side as long as I stop making calls when I know in my gut I shouldn't.

[UD_Delt]

I'll probably keep ending up on the positive side as long as I stop making calls when I know in my gut I shouldn't.

That's one of my leaks right now. I call too often on the river to see who sucked out on me and what they had. It's always so obvious too. I lead the betting each round with my TPTK, two pair, set or whatever and then the flush or straight draw hits on the river and someone comes to life and starts betting/raising. I could probably save at least 10BB a night if I could just fold there knowing I was beat but instead I have to pay to see it.