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f13.net  |  f13.net General Forums  |  The Gaming Graveyard  |  Game Design/Development  |  Topic: "Death to the Games Industry" 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
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Author Topic: "Death to the Games Industry"  (Read 25904 times)
HaemishM
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Reply #70 on: October 06, 2005, 08:08:57 AM

In short, I think you need to leave the business planning to people who have a lot more experience in the industry and get over yourself and the notion that all developers are stupid and you inherently know better.  Almost every idea you mention is being and has been tried dozens of timers over.  The market hasn't magically become what you want.  Ok, where do we go from there?

Wow, way to be a condescending douchebag. I love how the exact same sins you accuse me of, are the exact same thing you are doing. I'm rubber, you're glue?

You program games. Would you like to tell me how many business plans you have produced for said games? I am going to wager that you have produced less than two and more like zero. So either we should both shut the fuck up and stick to what we know, or continue making conjectures based on our personal experiences, beliefs and individual knowledge and have a goddamn discussion about it, you fucking arrogant sack of monkey nuts.

Quote
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The console market is more profitable than the PC gaming market. Someone who wanted to make a big splash PC wise would be better served making a budget console game than a PC shareware game, if the mobile market isn't profitable.

That doesn't follow.  You are talking about the "average" title.  I am talking about casual, low-budget titles which have a larger PC market and are easier to do on a budget.  The idea of a "budget" title itself is very different between the two markets.

To be most clear, I am talking about exploiting the 35+ year old housewife dominated market of casual gamers.  How many 35 year old housewives have XBox's?

I bet there are a shitton more 35+ year old housewives with mobile phones than there are housewives with computers and the knowledge required to find, download and install an indy PC game. If that's the market you are trying to target in order to make enough money to make a big spalsh PC game, you are better off making a fucking web version of parlor games in Java that can also be ported to cell phones fairly easily. There, two markets with 1.5 codebases and shared art assets. See how easy that was?

Or maybe it wasn't easy. Perhaps that market is already swallowed up the Pogo.com's of the world. Why are you targeting what are in essence NON-GAMERS. 35+ year old housewives don't play the kind of big splash PC games we are talking about, so the experience in design you'd gather from making a game that does hit that market doesn't translate very well. Your eventual market, i.e. more hardcore gamers who will actually search out and buy innovative indy games, will look at your previous design experience in the same light as the guy who made Mary-Kate and Ashley games. You'll have to work twice as hard to get that indy audience's respect.

Now if you make a cell phone/web version of Go or Space Invaders, you won't be quite so easily dismissable. That's marketing.

HaemishM
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Reply #71 on: October 06, 2005, 08:12:39 AM

Also, Merusk has the right of it. You aren't going to make consumers meet you anywhere they don't think they want to go. You have to convince them, entice them, shit the only thing consumers can be made to do is run away from your product, say if it causes cancer or something. That's why marketing, even and especially for the indy shops, is so important. The publishers succeed because they utilize big marketing budgets to make sure you know their game is coming and it will be the BESTEST EVAR! Sure, it's retarded, but it works.

They can get on TV. Indy devs can't. But that doesn't mean indy devs are powerless to sell their games, they just have to be more canny about it, more efficient with their marketing dollars, and make sure their games don't suck, aren't buggy and are an order of magnitude different/better than what the consumer can get elsewhere from the big guys.

StGabe
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Reply #72 on: October 06, 2005, 10:19:31 AM

Quote
Also, Merusk has the right of it. You aren't going to make consumers meet you anywhere they don't think they want to go.

Same holds for publishers, developers.  You aren't going to make them start making games in a different way until you give them a reason to.  Hmm, quit my job and work on a game that probably won't make me money.  Or hold a nice job, save up some money for a family, and have some fun if not quite as much fun.  Easy decision for me.  If I try to do anything else it's for me, asshole, not you.

As far as making business plans.  I've made about the same number as you.  But I am at least working in the industry and seeing the nuts and bolts of how things work.  I'm not saying "there is profit in mobile games" because it sounds good and furthers a prejudice I have that developers have all sorts of options and are simply douchebags that choose not to exercise them.  I'm telling you that I work with people all over the mobile industry and I know, more or less, what kinds of money is being made and by whom.  And while plenty of money is being made very little of it is going to indies.

Quote
I bet there are a shitton more 35+ year old housewives with mobile phones than there are housewives with computers and the knowledge required to find, download and install an indy PC game.

There are a lot of 35 year old housewives with mobile phones.  But they still play more casual games on PC's.  Most of them don't play any games on their phone.  It's not as conducive to their playstyle and they aren't the ones who are savvy about phone technology -- their kids are.  That market hasn't matured yet -- it probably will but not for 10 years.  A contributing factor is that communit is very important.  Far better than a hearts game is a hearts community where the 35 year old house wife can meet her Hearts friends and play a few rounds -- and phones aren't ready for that yet, the interfaces suck and the connectivity sucks more even in Europe.  And even if that 35 year old housewife is interested in casual games on her mobile phone, she's going to buy the one that is at the top of the list of the games section on her phone menu.  Not the one that she has to surf around the internet to find and figure out how to install through her web services on the phone.  You aren't going to get on that menu unless the carrier gives a shit about you -- which leaves most indies out in the cold.  Almost all money in mobile gaming is being made by companies who can get their games "on the deck" and those are mostly the estabished publisher types or people who, guess what, work through a publisher.

Are you done explaining my own industry to me yet?  Or is there some other useless, made-up bullshit business advice you'd like to give me?

Gabe.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2005, 10:22:07 AM by StGabe »

StGabe
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Reply #73 on: October 06, 2005, 10:29:33 AM

Quote
Why are you targeting what are in essence NON-GAMERS.  35+ year old housewives don't play the kind of big splash PC games we are talking about, so the experience in design you'd gather from making a game that does hit that market doesn't translate very well.

And this is different for mobile titles?  Have you played many mobile titles.  Technologically they are probably behind casual PC games.  The most "hardcore" mobile titles right now are 2d platformers.  At least with PC casual games you can develop a good 2d engine and target a medium that is similar to your final PC or console target.  I'd say that designing for both markets is probably a lot more interesting than you give credit for, but mobiles have no edge over PC casual games for "learning".  For mobiles, as an indie, you're also going to have to port your game to 20-50 phones (publisher types will farm this out to an in-house or other porting group).  Are you going to learn a lot from that?  No, not really.  Unless knowing that Nokia phones have fucked up sound and don't implement certain API functions is actually useful for making a 3d shooter, etc.  And it rather debunks the whole notion that you can just write a java game for the web, once, and have a mobile game too.  It's going to be work to make that work on one phone, let alone 20-50.

I don't think pogo.com has taken over the market for these casual games.  Check out, for example:
http://www.dexterity.com/articles/
if you want some actually qualified advice about the shareware casual market.  I think this article overhypes but read it too:
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/issue/8/14

Gabe.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2005, 10:38:10 AM by StGabe »

HaemishM
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Reply #74 on: October 06, 2005, 11:21:49 AM

Are you done explaining my own industry to me yet?  Or is there some other useless, made-up bullshit business advice you'd like to give me?

Don't quit your day job.

Also, don't link me to another fucking Escapist article. Jesus Fucking Christ and Muhammed could write on there and I WILL NOT READ IT.

Yegolev
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Reply #75 on: October 06, 2005, 01:49:08 PM

Zee goggles...!

Why am I homeless?  Why do all you motherfuckers need homes is the real question.
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Margalis
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Reply #76 on: October 06, 2005, 04:51:49 PM

God damn this thread is retarded.

Anyone who thinks they can build up dev studio by starting on mobile games should go ahead and try it. Good luck! You would be better off saying "open a successful laundromat then get into the games business with the profits." Only, opening a successful laundromat is probably easier.

So you just made a kick ass mobile game...now what? Seriously. Put it on your homepage and hope people download it? I would hazard to guess that 1% of mobile games make 99% of the money. Mobile games are like PC games, only worse. They are easier to make than PC games, but at the same time harder to sell. At least with a PC game you can get your download on FilePlanet or some press in Gamespot or something like that.

If you are an indie studio PC gaming is the only way to go, because it's the only way to distribute anything without having connections.

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Pococurante
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Reply #77 on: October 06, 2005, 07:16:36 PM

That is part of the problem - Haem and Gabe are striving for agreement across non-compatible sectors.  Problem is neither personality is at all concerned about synergy.  Just debate positions.

Which is a nice way of saying...

HaemishM
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Reply #78 on: October 07, 2005, 09:27:21 AM

I like Van Morrison.

Pococurante
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Reply #79 on: October 07, 2005, 09:30:38 AM

Me too.

That woman scares me though.
Stephen Zepp
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Reply #80 on: October 12, 2005, 09:26:56 PM

Sure, you reviewed an Indy game or two.  You still shit on innovation in general when it reaches the forum, support the retail market, hype big publishers far more than indie games, etc.  Blaming this on, "an MMOG developer touched me in a bad place" doesn't accomplish much except to further a prejudice that is anti-innovation and pro-hype.  Especially when most indy games aren't MMOG's.

GarageGames is good and I never said it wasn't nor did I say that Costikyan is the only independent effort out there.  I do think his essay nails most of the essential issues facing indie developers though.  And I think that Costikyan understands better than a lot of others that the fundamental problem for indie gaming is that of getting exposure to the gamer audience -- competing with and displacing the publisher's marketing machines.  GarageGames needs more hype, more buzz, more interest, more money.  And that's stuff that is going to need support from consumers to happen.   Talent and desire to create good games that gamers will enjoy isn't the bottleneck. And access to good tools has essentially become a non-issue as well, there are a lot of good, free or very cheap development tools out there.

Gabe.

Sorry to post before I finished reading the entire thread (and sorry I missed the thread in the first place, it's been a BUSY week!)

Speaking of Indies, more hype, more buzz, more interest, and more money...we just got finished with the Indie Game Convention this past weekend, and I wanted to say just a couple of things:

1) We officially announced the first "Indie" game available for XBox 360: Marble Blast Ultra. All comments about Marble Blast aside (FYI, the major addition was multi-player) good or bad, I thought it was pretty amazing that Microsoft themselves brought the very first playable XBox 360's in North America available to the public to an Indie games conference. The buzz is at the corporate level, and it's going to filter down, and hopefully sideways as well as sites like this become more and more aware of various Indie efforts. I want to say that again: the first publically playable XBox 360's in North America (Amsterdamn X05 beat us by about a week) were at a convention for Indie Game developers...

2) We saw some pretty damned amazing innovation at the conference (much in rough demo form, but some extremely polished)--including the winner of the "Most Innovative" category, a game called "Facade". This was literally cartoon graphics, but the gameplay mechanic was carried off very well: The precept is that you as the player have caused an argument between a couple, and you must convince them to get back together. Sounds hokey, but it honestly got some amazing playtime as people tried it out, and became extremely addicting to both male and female players alike very quickly. It's obviously targetted at the female casual gamer market, but it was amazingly innovative and addictive.

3) NCSoft (Steve Snow, Publisher rep for Auto Assault), Microsoft (Greg Canessa, Microsoft Casual Games and Katie Stone (EDIT: Sorry, she's not REALLY married to Steve Snow!), XBox Live Arcade Program Manager), GDC (Chris Crawford), Popcap (James Gwertzman), Ageia (Tom Lassanske), and Oberon (Dave Nixon) all had speakers at the conference, and spent quite a bit of time looking at the casual game and serious-but-indie game offerings that were demo-ed at the show.

Ironically, the biggest challenge IMO now is for the "indie movement" to avoid being swallowed up by the big names as it becomes more prevalent--the money the people listed above represent is extremely attractive to the indie developers that are starving themsleves and their families trying to make innovative games.

On a personal note, the most amazing thing I saw at the conference was from a commercial developer using the Torque Shader Engine: on a contract from NASA, they captured real terrain data from Mars (yes, the planet), imported it into the engine, and had a demo of one of the Mars Rovers running around the terrain (controllable). Was simply breathtaking for me.

PS: Be on the lookout for "Tube Twist" in the next couple of months...

PPS: We had some amazing press there as well, from many of the large print mags to gamasutra freelance journalists to PCGamer. You can listen to an interview with Jay Moore (Marketing Evangelist for GarageGames) on the PCGamer Podcast. It's long, but you get to hear Jay about about minute 13 or so.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2005, 09:54:56 PM by Stephen Zepp »

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Margalis
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Reply #81 on: October 12, 2005, 09:46:45 PM

Does GG sell games that are not developed with GG technology? Just wondering.

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Reply #82 on: October 12, 2005, 09:49:40 PM

Does GG sell games that are not developed with GG technology? Just wondering.

Yes, for example Gish.
Stephen Zepp
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Reply #83 on: October 12, 2005, 09:53:20 PM

Does GG sell games that are not developed with GG technology? Just wondering.

Absolutely. Gish, Void War, Bridge Construction Set, Mutant Storm, Aerial Antics, and more.

Interestingly, when GG was first established the idea was to provide the tech to make the games, wait for a bit, and then sell/distribute the games made with our tech. Unfortunately, the rate of quality indie games at that time wasn't enough to sustain a company providing tech like GG does for such a low price, so the publishing side of things has dropped quite a bit off the horizon, but I know for a fact that once the indie game flow kicks into high gear, it will become more and more of our business model as we originally planned.

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Stephen Zepp
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Reply #84 on: October 12, 2005, 09:58:44 PM

Some further info I've gathered after finally catching my breath from the long week:

Wik & The Fable of Souls (this years IGF winner), Mutant Storm, a complete and total port of Joust (yes, the old arcade game Joust), and Geometry Wars were also announced this week for XBox 360 Arcade. Joust got a bit of retro loving at IGC, and Geometry Wars was pretty popular as well.

Late add (trying not to spambump the thread): Gamasutra has released the first two feature articles about IndieGamesCon, including some text bites from some of the big (and little!) players.

Also in related news to Indies making it: Andy Schatz, an ex-game dev pro turned indie (and quite young as well, I'm guessing mid-late 20's) just announced last week a  world wide publishing/distribution deal for his game Wildlife Tycoon: Venture Africa with MumboJumbo for release in Q1 2006. Wildlife Tycoon: Venture Africa will be available on both PC and the Mac in both online and retail distribution channels, and was developed using the Torque Game Engine v1.3 and associated products.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2005, 01:08:00 PM by Stephen Zepp »

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StGabe
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Reply #85 on: October 18, 2005, 12:53:47 PM

Quote
Ironically, the biggest challenge IMO now is for the "indie movement" to avoid being swallowed up by the big names as it becomes more prevalent--the money the people listed above represent is extremely attractive to the indie developers that are starving themsleves and their families trying to make innovative games.

Yes.

We need an indy market in and of itself.  Not just a small chance for talented people with no funding to break into the market, as it stands, and then start working for the traditional publishers.

With mobile gaming we have basically seen that a new market emerged and lots of people jumped into it.  Several made money before the publisher types took the market seriously.  But those who made money are going on to become tradtional publisher types themselves or to start working directly for publishers.  And increasingly the mobile gaming market is looking like other video game markets where, without ties to a publisher and/or a sexy license, you aren't going to sell anything. 

What we need is a market where it ok not to have a sexy license or a publisher and where developers can maintain control of their ideas. Not just a side-market where a few companies can claw their way up to the top and get just enough cash/notoriety to move on to the "real" market of making games for EA/Vivendi/et al.

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