Neverwinter Nights; Is it worth it?

[Nija]

Knockdown was pretty fun. I had a blackguard / some other crap template on the DSO pvp nwn server (which had like 40-45 people on it primetime - not bad) that had something retarded like a 35% chance to knockdown each swing. Like 3 attacks / 2 seconds, stuff was over pretty fast.

[Cheddar]

Knockdown was pretty fun. I had a blackguard / some other crap template on the DSO pvp nwn server (which had like 40-45 people on it primetime - not bad) that had something retarded like a 35% chance to knockdown each swing. Like 3 attacks / 2 seconds, stuff was over pretty fast.

It was a horrible design idea and completely unbalanced the game.  Try playing as a none knock down template.  Then again it was kinda fun playing as God, able to take down anything that stood in ones way.

[shiznitz]

You have reminded me of the knockdown-retardedness. That was stupid.

I loved ToEE's d20 combat interpretation, though.

[Nija]

It was a horrible design idea and completely unbalanced the game.  Try playing as a none knock down template.  Then again it was kinda fun playing as God, able to take down anything that stood in ones way.

Right, but then imagine doing it to other people, over and over and over again. See? FUN!

I could still be 2-3 shotted by casters, though.

[Alkiera]

My issue with NWN was that combat took 3 seconds to resolve so most of one's playing time was walking around the map.

Welcome to D&D.  Heck, most PnP games are like this...  The vast majority of gaming sessions are spent in combat situations, because instead of travel times, you just say 'I go to Calmalot', and the GM says, 'Ok, 3 days pass, and you arrive in Calmalot'... in the vast majority of computer games, that doesn't work.  Daggerfall gets props for that.  It's something they left out of Morrowind, mostly because Morrowind was so much smaller.  The teleport service did shorten travel times, but wasn't quite the same thing.

Because of this, games have tried to streamline combat, to make it not drag on so long... resulting in computers being able to resolve combat very very fast.

Alkiera

[Kail]

Hmm, okay, so, I guess I'm the only one who enjoyed Neverwinter Nights, but absolutely hated Jade Empire?  Probably want to disregard my opinion, then.

[Cheddar]

Hmm, okay, so, I guess I'm the only one who enjoyed Neverwinter Nights, but absolutely hated Jade Empire?  Probably want to disregard my opinion, then.

Ahem, I do believe I voiced my support for this.  Just sayin'.

[Bunk]

My issue with NWN was that combat took 3 seconds to resolve so most of one's playing time was walking around the map.

Welcome to D&D.  Heck, most PnP games are like this...  The vast majority of gaming sessions are spent in combat situations, because instead of travel times, you just say 'I go to Calmalot', and the GM says, 'Ok, 3 days pass, and you arrive in Calmalot'... in the vast majority of computer games, that doesn't work.  Daggerfall gets props for that.  It's something they left out of Morrowind, mostly because Morrowind was so much smaller.  The teleport service did shorten travel times, but wasn't quite the same thing.

Because of this, games have tried to streamline combat, to make it not drag on so long... resulting in computers being able to resolve combat very very fast.

Alkiera

If you play Hordes through, and don't use a munchkinized monk/rogue/shadowdancer type character, many of the fights can be quite challenging and drawn out. It can also get rediculous though - had a fight against a Death Slaad or some such thing that took literally 30 mins to beat - it couldn't hurt me, but I could only get past its damage reduction on crits, and it regenerated 5hps a round. Ended up killing it by emptying 2 magic missile wands in to it.

I still reinstall NWN once in a while to play Hordes or the odd custom module. As to the complaints against the combat pace - I just hit pause after every round and think about things. Works for me.

[Trippy]

Hmm, okay, so, I guess I'm the only one who enjoyed Neverwinter Nights, but absolutely hated Jade Empire?  Probably want to disregard my opinion, then.

Well I didn't hate Jade Empire but I did think it was disappointing in many ways. I thought the combat was crap, the NPCs weren't nearly as interesting as they were in KotOR, and the alignment system was still the cliched "good" vs "evil" instead of drawing from the Chinese concepts of harmony and balance (Yin and Yang).

[Wasted]

I'm one of those few people that prefered NWN to the holy Baldur's gate games, so I guess my views are all backwards but for what its worth...
The original campaign wasnt the best for sure but I did actually finish it which is rare for me.  Shadows of Undrentide was genuinely pretty fun through out the majority of it, with the module getting better as you progress along.  By the time Hordes of the Underdark came out I was pretty much over the game and couldn't get into it, same reason I havent tried the premium modules.  I played online for a while and while some where fun on a solo level most of the worlds I tried had some exploitable parts of it that most of the players would just abuse rather than play as intended.  The witches wake modules where ok but not great, I would have tried more of the player made ones but I lack the patience to wade through all the crap to find the good ones.

There are lots of ways the game could have been better, but for what it is I think the game is worth giving a fair chance to, especially if you arent shy to try out the player made content.  Overall I am happy with the purchase, it was a lot more value for money than many games I have bought.

[Llava]

I liked Neverwinter Nights, but was always somewhat irritated that it didn't take into account efforts to cheat all the NPCs and get away with the maximum amount.

For example, in the initial campaign there's a quest to collect these artifacts hidden throughout the city for a good aligned religion.  An evil aligned priest approaches you and offers you more gold for the items if you bring them to him instead.

Being a thief, I did exactly that.  However, I was a thief who generally had a pretty good heart and didn't much mind screwing over evil people, so as soon as I handed him the items and got the gold from him, I'd pickpocket the items right back.  I then took them to the good aligned priest to find... he wouldn't take them.  Wouldn't even acknowledge that I had them in my inventory.  Bah.  Why let me pickpocket the items back in the first place, then?

Same deal for Shadows of Undrentide.  In the little showdown between the witch chick and the dragon, my goal was to kill them both and take their treasure.  I did it, but the game never really gave any recognition that I did it. 

[Fabricated]

I liked Neverwinter Nights, but was always somewhat irritated that it didn't take into account efforts to cheat all the NPCs and get away with the maximum amount.

For example, in the initial campaign there's a quest to collect these artifacts hidden throughout the city for a good aligned religion. An evil aligned priest approaches you and offers you more gold for the items if you bring them to him instead.

Being a thief, I did exactly that. However, I was a thief who generally had a pretty good heart and didn't much mind screwing over evil people, so as soon as I handed him the items and got the gold from him, I'd pickpocket the items right back. I then took them to the good aligned priest to find... he wouldn't take them. Wouldn't even acknowledge that I had them in my inventory. Bah. Why let me pickpocket the items back in the first place, then?

Same deal for Shadows of Undrentide. In the little showdown between the witch chick and the dragon, my goal was to kill them both and take their treasure. I did it, but the game never really gave any recognition that I did it.

Play some of the user-made, thief-oriented modules. Seriously.

I gotta link to the vault since it's the only place to really get most modules, but trust me, they're good.

Honor Among Thieves: http://nwvault.ign.com/View.php?view=Modules.Detail&id=3627
Basically the most open-ended in terms of plot. You can be as dirty as you want. Being the light-hearted kleptomaniac or the filthy greedy murderous rogue is perfectly doable. Amazingly the author did all of the scripting 100% on his own, instead of slapping 500 haks together into a slow clusterfuck of a module. Tons of shit to do, a real emphasis on thief skills, and a neat plot to boot.

In the Company of Thieves 1 and 2:
http://nwvault.ign.com/View.php?view=modules.Detail&id=1158
http://nwvault.ign.com/View.php?view=modules.Detail&id=1160
This is more for people who play the "good" rogues who prefer being Robin Hood type thieves that steal from the rich and give to themselves and have a good moral compass outside of the kleptomania.

Very comedic at times. Especially number 2, which has a great section with a busted carnival ride called "It's a small realm after all", complete with awful looping music.

Elegia and Excrucio Eternum:
http://nwvault.ign.com/View.php?view=modules.Detail&id=2863
http://nwvault.ign.com/View.php?view=modules.Detail&id=2865

Elegia Eternum is pretty straightforward and focuses on story and combat over thief stuff, but its got honest-to-god voice acting (and it's not half bad either), a good plot, and helps explain part of the second module.

Excrucio Eternum is MUCH darker, and much more involved, allowing pretty much all classes to make use of their skills (the most creative and disgusting use of the Pick Pocket skill I have ever seen occurs in this module). More RPing in the way of choosing your alignment is allowed, and there are a fair amount of puzzles. Just a really cool module. Worth the price of NWN in my opinion.

Halo of Flies / Shadow from a Soul on Fire:
http://nwvault.ign.com/View.php?view=modules.Detail&id=80
http://nwvault.ign.com/View.php?view=modules.Detail&id=1927

Not really class oriented in any way, they're just both very good modules.

I played a character from level 1 up all the way through these modules. I played them through in such an order so that all of these could logically occur in the same timeline for my character (which makes my PC very fucking disaster prone), which I thought was pretty cool for some reason.

[Llava]

Thanks for the tips, I'll pick them up sometime when I'm in a NWN mood.

[Sky]

Hey, thanks for the heads-up on those adventures, Fabricated! I might actually reinstall this game now.

 

[Pococurante]

NWN is fatally, fatally flawed as a D&D product.  It just flat out doesn't work.  I could go into why, but I'm not going to.  We've done this one to death so many times.

And fatally flawed as a tool for a GM to manipulate real-time.  It's great if one likes the module/short story paradigm.

[dusematic]

I got the idea to play NWN from this board.  It seemed like a good idea.  $30 dollars for the Platinum Edition, and a chance to work a character up through Epic levels.  It'll be just like the wonderful PnP campaign I never had. 

I started a Ranger, and then realized how much of an asshole I was, and deleted him.  Then I started a somewhat less irritating Rogue named Crenshaw with a penchant for dual-wielding.  The tutorial was fun. 

The game lets you have henchmen.  I should rephrase.  The game lets you have a henchman.  Rogues in this game are all about sneak attacks (I know, it's crazy).  So what the hell, I'm basically forced to have a warrior henchman.  I need a shield to anchor the enemies on; or my thief is worthless.  Even so, landing sneak attacks every time, I'm not outdamaging my henchman, who ostensibly is wearing the same equipment he had at level 1 (and is always 1 level below you).  If, for some reason (like being effective) I decided to make a warrior, then I'd clearly need a rogue henchman.

I say clearly because everything is locked.  The doors are locked.  The chests are locked.  The wardrobes are locked.  The fucking desks are locked.  And they're all trapped.  There are at least 4 things to unlock and de-trap in each room.  This doesn't happen instantaneously, rather, it takes about 10 seconds.  That may not sound like a lot to you, 10 seconds, big deal. Wrong.  I thought Dundeon Siege was bad, clicking on 87 barrels every other screen.  Imagine if every barrel in Dungeon Siege took 10 seconds to break. 


I just don't see how it would be possible to make it through the game without a rogue.  You'd just be blundering along stumbling into traps and getting fucked up.  Even with my rogue in detect mode, I will occassionally not see a trap and pay the consequences.  Not that dying really matters, you lose 50 xp a level, and 10% of your gold.  And I'm not some crazed douche who likes to have the tender insides of his asshole branded as punishment for dying either.  But, at level 8 I have 22,000 gold.  Are you shitting me?  There's nothing to spend it on except for potions, and I rarely need to buy any, because I find them all the time.  I've been to every shop, I got all +1's baby.  50 XP a level?  That's like six extra zombies I have to kill.  You can save the game anywhere, so you only take the death penalty if you forgot.  The sweetest part is fighting a boss and then using your stone of recall midway through the fight to...make the game pointless?  After you're done shopping you can hop back into the fight fully healed. 

The alignment system?  I like it.  I like killing old men and robbing hookers.  We all do.  But my alignment is only going to shift -3 towards evil after I extort a nobleman on pain of death, and then kill him anyway?  Really?  I had always assumed it would be so much more than that.  I've killed children, robbed from beggars, pick pocketed women, and then killed them too.  Everytime I complete a quest, I greedily ask for more money and then whether they give it to me or not I scream "THIS IS AN OUTRAGE!!"  Lady Aribeth speaks very highly of me.  It's ridiculous.

The combat is boring.  I have no abilities.  I just let my incredibly articulate half-orc friend (I'm not being sarcastic) wade into battle, and then I unleash my arsenal of sneak attacks.  Since those happen automatically, the game manages to be less involved than Dungeon Siege. Since it's late, and this post is already pathetic, I'll wrap this up. 

Story.  I don't know whether it was more improbable that I find a small boy running a huge shop in the bottom of a cultist's dungeon or that the illest boss I've fought so far "Desther" (under the color coding scheme, he was purple, which means he was at least 5 levels higher than me, under the category of impossible, and the description "death is guaranteed") GAVE UP after I got him down to the status of BARELY INJURED.  He just gave up, said "you win, I'll come with you now so that I can be executed by Lord Neverwinter" and then I watched a cinematic about it.  Myth had better cinematics.


I'm so pissed, and I'm holding those (you know who you are) that played decisive roles in portraying this game in a good light on these boards responsible for the 30 beans and the Saturday I'll never get back.

[Rasix]

Did you ignore the plethora of folks that said the included campaign is shit? Check. Did you ignore all of the talk that the combat isn't great? Check. Fuck, the writing was on the wall that NWN isn't a game for everyone and probably half of anyone that's played it (including the expansions) didn't like it.

This really didn't need to be it's own topic. I probably should have just chucked it in the den for the added joy of all of the fucked up italics scratching my cornea. 

[Llava]

And yes, the Barbarian henchman is completely fucking unbalanced.  He speaks decently because he was raised with humans, not orcs.

It's quite reasonable to get through the game without a rogue.  A monk or barbarian, for instance, can usually run right through those traps without flinching.  For locked stuff, nearly any spellcaster can get an unlocking spell, or at the very least one that blows shit up if you don't feel like bothering with the actual lock.  And 99% of the time, bothering with the locked stuff isn't really worth it unless you're an explorer type.

[dusematic]

Did you ignore the plethora of folks that said the included campaign is shit? Check. Did you ignore all of the talk that the combat isn't great? Check. Fuck, the writing was on the wall that NWN isn't a game for everyone and probably half of anyone that's played it (including the expansions) didn't like it.

This really didn't need to be it's own topic. I probably should have just chucked it in the den for the added joy of all of the fucked up italics scratching my cornea. 

I thought this forum was the place to bitch about how much you hate games?  That said, I don't really care where you put my post; but I would like to point out that you said you "had a lot of fun with NWN Gold + Horde of the Underdark.  Shadows of Undrentide wasn't that bad but HOU was really a lot of fun"  Just saying.  That (and others) helped give me the impression the game was good.


Llava, are you saying I picked the wrong class to play with?  I had a sneaking suspicion that may have been the case, but there's no way I'll ever know for sure.  As far as opening every chest, you're right, it's not worth it.  I guess I just feel desperate to justify picking a rogue.

[Rasix]

I thought this forum was the place to bitch about how much you hate games?  That said, I don't really care where you put my post; but I would like to point out that you said you "had a lot of fun with NWN Gold + Horde of the Underdark.  Shadows of Undrentide wasn't that bad but HOU was really a lot of fun"  Just saying.  That (and others) helped give me the impression the game was good.

I was being specific for a reason.  SOU was decent and HOU was fun as far as modules go.  The regular campaign was crap on a stick and it had hordes of balance problems.

FYI, no problem with the bitching, that's par for the course here.  Just didn't need its own thread, not a problem, I can and do fix that. 

Llava, are you saying I picked the wrong class to play with?  I had a sneaking suspicion that may have been the case, but there's no way I'll ever know for sure.  As far as opening every chest, you're right, it's not worth it.  I guess I just feel desperate to justify picking a rogue.

I played as a monk one time and a sorcerer the next.  Both characters made it through quite fine and a majority of the lockables were able to be opened with various means.  Of course, with SOU there's a cleric/rogue henchman you can use. Quite a handy character to have and by the time you're using HOU you can have 2 henchmen.  Still, not as good as a 5-6 person group for covering your bases, but it's sufficient.

[Strazos]

I'm still waiting for the next awesome game in the spirit of the Infinity Engine greats.

Dungeon Siege 2 has catassry built into it; you have to beat the game Twice to be able to use 6-person parties. Even in DS1 I could use 8 without beating the game.  I like the game, but it just doesn't scratch that itch for full party supremacy.

[Stormwaltz]

Llava, are you saying I picked the wrong class to play with?  I had a sneaking suspicion that may have been the case, but there's no way I'll ever know for sure.  As far as opening every chest, you're right, it's not worth it.  I guess I just feel desperate to justify picking a rogue.

I played through the OC with a rogue. But I'm well known for my tendency to play gimp characters.

I quit when I was somewhere over 10 rogue / 3 Shadowdancer (midway through chapter 4), and I was doing all right. You do need a meat shield, preferably the barbarian or monk, to grab aggro so you can swing around behind and get your sneak attack bonus damage. If you really want to solo, the Shadowdancer's "Hide in Plain Sight" feat lets you snipe, disappear right in front of the AI, snipe again, etc. The rogue, AFAIK, isn't supposed to be a powerplayer in D&D. You can certainly kill anything a fighter can, but you need a bit more patience and planning. Ah - and dont' forget to use traps if you've got them. Steath yourself and lay down a line of them, then grab aggro and lead the enemy over them. That's the only way I could get past the water elemental in Chapter 4 - the damned thing kept one-shot drowning me *and* my big burly half-orc henchman.

I have some beefs with the way the alignment system is utilized in the OC myself. The final straw was when I let an escaped felon go who had only killed people because they'd tortured and murdered his parents. I got hit with evil points instead of chaotic points. Swha?

Since coming to Bio, I've learned many things about the production of the game. I can't tell you any of them. I can say that when I mentioned I was playing through NWN, I was repeatedly told to skip the OC and play SoU - or better, HotU.

[Strazos]

So basically, Bioware said their own material was garbage?

[Kail]

I have some beefs with the way the alignment system is utilized in the OC myself. The final straw was when I let an escaped felon go who had only killed people because they'd tortured and murdered his parents. I got hit with evil points instead of chaotic points. Swha?

As far as I know, at no point in the original campaign is it possible to gain or loose points along the lawful/chaotic axis.  Which is... yeah, wierd.

As far as dusematic's post:

Rogues, in my opinion, are underpowered in the original single player campaign.  In multiplayer, if you've got a party, you can do some nice work supporting them (especially once you get those crazy high level sneak attack bonuses), but in single player, you've got trouble.  You do the same damage as any other melee class (minus the strength bonus, probably), but you can't wear better than leather armor.  You basically can't sneak at all, since your big ol' henchman will continue to trundle around behind you in plain sight (even if you take the thief henchman), and a lot of boss fights are initiated by scripted events that will break stealth.  As an aside, while a lot of stuff is locked, most henchmen have some way of dealing with it (the bard can pick locks, for example, even though that's not a class skill for bards), so you can cut down on cleanup time by ordering them to take care of half the traps while you do likewise.

A Rogue's strength is not really in his combat ability, it's more focused on his very high number of skill points per level.  Rogues can master a large array of skills that can help a party, but they aren't so hot on their own.  If you're looking for a class that can kick serious ass in melee combat, look at Fighters or Monks or Barbarians.  If you're looking for a class with a lot of options open to them, try one of the magic using classes (Mage, Sorcerer, Cleric maybe, Bard if you don't mind dying), which also have the advantage of AOE untrap/unlock spells.  Rogues are useful to have around, but if you're playing by yourself, you'd probably have more fun playing as a Barbarian or something and hiring the Rogue sidekick to do all the untrapping, rather than vice-versa.

Again, the game is a lot more fun, in my opinion, if you can get in a multiplayer game with a friend.  I played this game with someone I played PnP D&D with, and it's about ten times as interesting.  Since you can each take a sidekick, even one other person brings your party size up to four, which makes being a rogue (or a bard or whatever support class you want) a lot more workable.  Four people looting a room makes the whole thing over pretty quick.

[Llava]

Llava, are you saying I picked the wrong class to play with?  I had a sneaking suspicion that may have been the case, but there's no way I'll ever know for sure.  As far as opening every chest, you're right, it's not worth it.  I guess I just feel desperate to justify picking a rogue.

Not at all.  I loved playing a Rogue in that game.  It's my favorite class.  Elven rogues are particularly effective because their "Detect Mode" is always on, and you can see those traps or secret passages from a mile away.  Plus what's a lot of fun is not just disarming the traps, but salvaging them and replacing them somewhere else, then luring enemies through them.  I killed more than a few very tough monsters by setting up a gauntlet of traps down a hallway, plinking them with an arrow, then leading them through.  "Huh?  Oh, I wasn't supposed to kill the ancient red dragon?  Oops."

But yes, it takes a while before your damage starts to ramp up.  Fighters and Barbarians start off much more effective, but there were a number of times that I'd have my henchman stay behind and I'd sneak up on an enemy and kill them with a single sneak attack.

Some of your complaints, though, sound like Rogue really isn't the class you want to play, it just seems like you feel obligated to play one because you "need" to be able to pick locks and disarm traps.  Not so.  Play what you want, with a little creativity I think you'll find the game actually does allow for a great deal of flexibility.

[Fabricated]

So basically, Bioware said their own material was garbage?

I viewed the original game as a module kind of tacked on to say, "This is part of what you can do with the toolset."

[Strazos]

I know that, but BioWare is usually not one to half-ass something.

[Jain Zar]

The only good real time combat in RPGs are the ones where I have DIRECT control over my character.  Otherwise make it turn based.  Especially in D20 D&D which is a wargame where (in tabletop land anyhow..)  roleplaying breaks out from time to time.

The Infinity Engine games would have been better with turn based combat, especially given how cheesy most of the BG2 and IWD2 fights were.  Basically designed as a "Dying every fight and reload knowing what to do) situation.

NWN's combat was similar, cept you had less to keep track of and could win most minor fights without trouble.  I tended to play fighter/thief, Bards, and I don't think I made it far in Underdark at all, but I think I was going Shapeshifter or Dragon D.

But don't give me radial shit menus either.  Temple of Elemental Evil was one colossal letdown.  Its clear the time they spent not dealing with bugs of making any meaningful questing in that game wasn't spent playing any console turn based strategy RPGs or I dunno, FUCKING X COM so its combat and roleplaying blew giant moose weenie.  Troika deserved to die, and I hope they burn in bad game design Hell.  Right next to Acclaim.

Shit, just have someone modernize the old Gold Box games.  Be the best damned D&D RPG out there.

What it would have:
MULTIPLE PARTY MEMBERS.  I hate solo quests.  Hell, any party smaller than 5 is dull.  I want giant street fights with party flexibility.  Yeah yeah.  We need the Fighter/MU/Cleric/Thief archetypes in the team.  I would also like other builds and to tweak things a bit.  Small parties don't allow this.

Isometric/3d turn based combat with either fast intuitive console tbsrpg menus or a streamlined easy to use X Com styled interface.
Especially in D20.  I don't feel like clicking EVERY TURN to make sure I have power attack, or charge, or whatever other tactic I want to use.  REMEMBER THE LAST TURN DEVELOPERS.  Destructible enviroments are a plus.  If a 386 can handle it there is NO reason modern games can't.

A decent story I can affect.  Don't give me uncontrollable linearity.  PLEASE.  I understand if there has to be some structure, but there can be a happy medium between aimless neverending sandbox and on rails might as well be Dragon's Lair!

NO ANIME BULLSHIT.  I do not wish to controll an orphaned teenaged boy swordsman who ends up with the demure teenaged girl with the personality of a 50's sitcom wife thank you.  And we don't always need to save the entire fucking planet either.  Why not just save Sheboygan or Uncle Fred's Liquor Store for a change?  And please let adults be worthwhile.  Most teenagers I have known are lucky they can wipe their own asses.  Being the shining bright hero?  Not so much.

NO CATASSING.  I should never see a pointless random combat, fetch quest, or have to replay things just to get it right or to buff up for the next fight.  I am happy to complete your tightly balanced campaign without having to do sidequests, or go to some level up dungeon or item world.  Leave these things available for me should my tactical skills be poor, or my mania for completing every sidequest be overwhelming, but don't force me into story destroying catassery just so I can beat the cheesy boss.

CHARACTER CREATION.  I like making my own dudes and dudettes.  Please let me do so.  It is fun.  Oh yeah, and let me dress them appropriately.  Stop designing combat clothing inspired by the Phantom Lady, FFX-2, and Clyde Caldwell.  Armor needs to actually COVER VITAL AREAS.  My mecha pilot with the glasses doesn't need to show off her midriff when she hops out of the 100 ton death beast to infiltrate the evil base.  Her belly button is cuter when it wouldn't be burned off via flamethrowers.  Kevlar with a heat resistant overcoat is much better thanks.

SUSPENSION OF DISBELIEF.  I don't care how many hit points you have.  Some asshole with a gun is still deadly.  When the fucking N GAGE can make a strategy RPG work with realistic guns I am sure you megamillion dollar developers with years of experience can outdo a bunch of Finns (IIRC) who made a little mobile phone game.  Also see my mentions of retarded clothing, catassing, and anime teenage bullshit for other ideas.  Oh yeah, and if the king wants me to save his country?  Give me more than 5 bucks to do it.  You have a castle and a guard.  Requisition the shopkeeps to give me some REAL GEAR.  If this screws up your design, find a more realistic way to have a street bum save the planet.  Like he escaped from jail for a crime he didn't commit or something. 

I HAVE A LIFE.  100 hours is NOT a buying point for me.  Its the reason Dragon Warrior 7 bombed in the US.  Its the reason few people actually finished Morrowind (ok, I would give a few dozen other reasons why that game blew, but thats besides the point.), and many other games go uncompleted.  You spent money on that ending cinematic.  You want people to see it.  Don't be like the Ninja Gaiden and Ghosts & Goblins developers.  Make the difficulty reasonable and the timeframe to completion sane.  That other 50 hours?  Probably fat anyhow.  Cut the good parts into a same engine sequel for next year.  MONEY IN THE BANK. 

[Strazos]

Just for reference, most (if not all) Infinity Engines games had auto-pause options to automatically pause after each combat round. I personally never used that particular option, instead deigning to just pause whenever I felt I needed to.

Also, most of those games had a much lower time-to-completion if you did just the central story line....but who does that? BioWare sidequests are usually pretty good.

All this talk REALLY makes me want to go through the entire BG saga again, and whoop some ass in IWD 1 and 2.

[Calantus]

All this talk REALLY makes me want to go through the entire BG saga again, and whoop some ass in IWD 1 and 2.

The problem with that is BG1 "sucks" after BG2. All the little things they did to make BG2 more user friendly really hit hom ewhne you go back. :/

[Strazos]

The problem with that is BG1 "sucks" after BG2. All the little things they did to make BG2 more user friendly really hit hom ewhne you go back. :/

Blasphemy!

That's like saying a classic car "sucks" because it doesn't have EFI or airbags.

[stray]

BG: DA. Now there's a Baldur's Gate that I can really enjoy (if only the overall game was as deep and long as the PC titles).

* Yeah, I know. It barely qualifies as "D&D" to a lot people's minds. Then again, most D&D crpg's, and many PC rpgs in general, barely qualify as "video games" in my mind.

Anyways, I agree with Jain on both points (even if Dark Alliance isn't what he was exactly talking about in terms of real time rpg combat).  Give me full control of my character, or just make it turn based. And by turn based, not ToEE either. X-Com is right on the money. Even though it's a strategy, that would probably translate the fun of pnp combat better than any other rpg out there.

[Rasix]

The problem with that is BG1 "sucks" after BG2. All the little things they did to make BG2 more user friendly really hit hom ewhne you go back. :/

Blasphemy!

That's like saying a classic car "sucks" because it doesn't hace EFI or airbags.

He's got a point though, BG2 improves on BG1 in every aspect.  There's not one thing BG1 does that BG2 doesn't blow out of the water. 

I've been playing a lot of old RPGs I've missed (some Japanese translations) and revisting some old favorites on an emulator.  There's just been a whole lot of improvements over time in the genre that make these games a lot more fun.  They're good games, but compared to modern day RPGs the experience can tend to "suck" a little.

[Astorax]

The real meat of NWN was in the toolset and the customizability of the game in general.

Granted, it isn't for the feint of heart, as it takes quite a bit of hackage to get things going...BUT, the ability to create total conversion games with it is fairly impressive.  I'm working on a turn based Bloodbowl game using the NWN engine and the toolset.  Also have the prelim ideas for turn based battletech in 3d with it as well...complete with hit locations...when I have the time.  Not sure where it's all gonna come from though.

[Strazos]

Speaking of which, I practically had to hack BG to get it installed, and the BG2 main menu freaks out, but once I get past the front page of it, it's fine.


Now I just need to find the time to start a character in BG, go through that entire game (Plus TotSC), and then import the toon in BG2 and go through SoA and ToB.

I really wanted to try an evil wizard -> Sorcorer.