1 million of you are keeping Blizzard in money hats.

[HaemishM]

Um.  I agree with your Stagnant and Boring paragraph, but I think you're personalising your views of WoW far, far too much (as usual, since you seem to hate it.)

I paid my 80 fucking dollars and got a sped up version of goddamn Everquest with the exact same endgame and battle animations that didn't even compare to the one year old at the time City of Heroes. Fuck that.

The art book is nice.

WoW needs housing.

Actually, I think you got a sped-up version of goddamn Dark Age of Camelot, since the game really takes more inspiration from DAoC than EQ, IMO. Of course, since DAoC was just a slow-footed version of EQ with faction-based, zone-restricted PVP, it's a mostly correct statement.

[Pococurante]

They then were the exclusive outlet for ANY products for a good while, letting them amass huge fortunes.

Nothing a good reverse auction system wouldn't have fixed.  Most MMOGs economies do not allow goods/market flow.  The way to bring the two playstyles together is to let buyers post a reverse auction for what they need and the amount they'll instantly accept versus allow to high bid.

[HaemishM]

Crafting? Crafting is hard because if you make it meaningful, you take the hatred players have towards the devs and double it, with half directed at crafters and half directed at the devs. The phat loot squad hates crafters more than anything. I love the whole crafter dependent, run your own little shop, thing in SWG, but most players seem to really hate it. I don't know how you balance. I don't think you can. At least in WOW I can craft and sell some things without other players denouncing me as a predator and denouncing the devs for letting me be one. It's not a bad system. It also gives you at least some ability to use/sell items before you reach "the end game."

I think the best way to balance it is stop trying to balance it at all. Don't make one or the other better. Make crafters able to do all but the most incredible and rare shit. BUT, give the crafters the ability to customize the look of the items, either items they created or items that were looted off of mobs. You could have the same exact Sword of UberDouche +37 dropped of a dragon that your enemy has, but yours looks completely different, with some bad ass trim on it. Make the customizations colorful and numerous, like the costumes in CoH. And for the real catasses that just have to have some rare, super-rare PVE loot, have there be only a few that are completely unique. Add one unique per class a month. And I do mean ONLY ONE PER SERVER, that once you get it, no one else can have it.

Of course, I'd also like to see PVP in the game, such that even if you weren't flagged PVP, when you get that one unique item per month, you become flagged for PVP by all at all times. If you lose, you can get looted of that 1 super-unique item.

That's what I call the Principle of Uber Item Douche Rarity.

[HaemishM]

As I've said before, the biggest problem in WoW isn't even that it's hard to type in these situations, it's almost as hard to READ the text in these situations. I miss guild chat often because I'm focusing on what's happening in the window. Unlike EQ1, I don't have to ever look at (and don't) my combat spam, I can tell what's going on from the onscreen action. Reading the guild/party chat is a separate distraction. The popup bubbles WoW has added don't seem to work as well as they should for this.

Why are you watching the combat window in WoW?

I'm not, I'm watching the screen, which means I'm not watching the chat box.

[schild]

Ok, so Schild - you don't want leveling in any form - skills or levels. So essentially you want to remove the ding,gratz! from the game. It could be done, but you'll have to provide a whole lot of something else to inspire people to keep playing. The problem I see with removing levels right now, is that levels are what determine where you can go in the game.

Designers currently build area of the game based on what level of character will adventure there. Without that, I can see one of two results.

1) All areas of the game can be accessed by anyone, which really kind of spoils any accomplishment of making your way in to a new area or "stage" of the game.
 or
2) The game design forces you to progress through areas one after another, which gives you a progression, but also makes the game feel like a train ride - which is probably even worse.

Let's take a look at Dynasty Warriors. Just for shits and giggles and for an alternative. By the way, they are making a Way of the Samurai Online in Japan - so this sort of thing has been thought up. But anyway, in Dynasty Warriors 5, if you kill a guy with a big enough combo or quickly enough or without getting hit, the loot can change. And it can change radically. You can get a permanent attack+8 instead of +2. Also, with enough of a luck stat (which means letting your other stats hurt a bit), there's simply better loot to get. Also, why aren't there any puzzles in online games?

Would it be so bad to have a dungeon system like Zelda or Diablo or God of War (the Hades or Rome Stages)? Or full areas that seem like single player games? You know what happens at the end? You get a key. THEN, since the game is based on skill, you have the ability to go to the next area. Or whatever. I realize that MMOGs can't have the production value in every dungeon like those games, but hell, they have level designers and quest designers. Might not be as fun, but it'll be like a special part of the world.

I'm just saying, there are alternatives - and ding grats at some random arbitrary set of experience is an idea older than my grandpa. And a reminder that what you just did was waste enough time to see that little leveling animation.

[Nebu]

Levels are a marketing ploy and are unlikely to leave.  They are artificial goals that can be maintained with only minimal content.  Until the current marketing strategies change, subscriptions are the cash cows rather than box sales.  Keeping people chasing after a carrot is the key to subscription success.

What keeps people in games for the long haul? 

1. Social networks

2. An artificial ceiling that is always changing (i.e. raising the bar continually over time).

3. Keeping both of these interconnected and enjoyable.

If designers can do a better job of masking the level grind, they'll be successful.  I think WoW does this pretty well, at least at the early stages, by having a large number of quests coupled to the rate of granting new abilities.   It just gets obnoxious when you have to kill 100 rats, then 1000 greater rats, then 10,000 demonic rats. 

I think people embrace levels.  It gives them a marker by which they can compare themselves to other gamers.  It also gives them a sense of advancement within the game world.  Of course, we all know that there are many different gaming personalities within each community and some are more "achiever" than others.  Since I'm more of a social gamer, I'm sure I could enjoy gaming without them. I'm just not sure anyone is willing to generate enough unique content in a game to maintain player retention over the long haul.  Without levels, the amount of content would have to rise almost exponentially to keep players interested beyond the first month or two.

[HaemishM]

Without levels, the amount of content would have to rise almost exponentially to keep players interested beyond the first month or two.

Unless you are charging them by the scenario/content consumption, as opposed to a flat monthly fee.

[Hoax]

This is some cat in the hat shit, keep it going...

On the pvp front, I would seriously like to know how much influence can be garnered in pvp before the "achievers" (read: carebears  :-D ) start being upset?

It seems to me, judging from the wailing about stats when the pvp items first came out in WoW (they were considered better then MC gear by many on the cesspool boards) PvE'ers want their achievements to be the most important or they are not happy.  If that is the case, there is no way to make the two sides happy, because meaningful pvp that influences the world is in a constant state of flux (one side wins and razes town X, then the defenders return and rebuild it and start again).  Whereas in pve you either win or dont and I dont see any way to set it up where people can have meaningful world-changing pve encounters because then you are in a sleeper's tomb (I think that was the encounter that only could be beat once per server?) situation.  Eventually someone will win and its not like the dragon can keep comming back like a bad horror movie character to be beat and have the world influenced again can there?

[Merusk]

This is some cat in the hat shit, keep it going...

On the pvp front, I would seriously like to know how much influence can be garnered in pvp before the "achievers" (read: carebears  :-D ) start being upset?

Depends on how hardcore anti they are.  The worst of them? None. None at all.  If you can influence their gameplay at all, the game is horrible and the devs are clearly PKs themselves for supporting such griefing idiots.

[Samwise]

Of course, I'd also like to see PVP in the game, such that even if you weren't flagged PVP, when you get that one unique item per month, you become flagged for PVP by all at all times. If you lose, you can get looted of that 1 super-unique item.

That's what I call the Principle of Uber Item Douche Rarity.

 

I'd play that game in a heartbeat.

[Strazos]

I would help kill the douche just to see him lose the item.

Then I would laugh.

[Llava]

I would help kill the douche just to see him lose the item.

Then I would laugh.

Make it so the item never decays when dropped in the world.

I'd steal it from a corpse, carry it out to a remote spot in the wilderness, and drop it there.  Someone is eventually going to feel very, very lucky.

[Murgos]

I would help kill the douche just to see him lose the item.

Then I would laugh.

If you kill the douche and take the item doesn't that make you the new douche?

[Samwise]

The more I think about this, the more it sounds like the SWG Jedi system done right.  Or something.  Attainable through a known path, doesn't necessarily involve catassing, and with built-in limits so you don't have an infinite number of uber douches running around.

[Strazos]

If you kill the douche and take the item doesn't that make you the new douche?

I'm assuming I wouldn't get loot credit.

[Nebu]

Rare loot would never work because everyone that plops down their $15 a month wants to be a special snowflake.  This is quite possibly at the root of most mmogs: that everyone wants to be the hero.  With time, everyone can be.  What you're left with is then a world of heros where noone is special.  It's an interesting thing.

Make being a hero based on skill and 85% of the people will quit early when they realize they aren't among the best.  Make it based upon time and the casual players will leave once they come to grips with the fact that they will never be able to enjoy being at the top, ever.  Allowing everyone to be a hero after they jump through some set series of hoops seems to be a great answer for the marketing department. 

[stupid newbie]

Whatever happened to everyone playing a game for different reasons? Aren't mmos rather limited in this area?

Or games with 3D graphics and 3D gameplay? (eg. doing something 2D cannot)

[HaemishM]

Rare loot would never work because everyone that plops down their $15 a month wants to be a special snowflake. 

Fuck them and all MMOG players in their stupid little clown shoe asses. That's part of the biggest problem with MMOG's. Everyone must be equal no matter how unequal to the task of being equal every equivalent little twat is.

Special snowflakes should be melted in the white-hot heat of my disdain for their uniqueness.

[Surlyboi]

Rare loot would never work because everyone that plops down their $15 a month wants to be a special snowflake. 

Fuck them and all MMOG players in their stupid little clown shoe asses. That's part of the biggest problem with MMOG's. Everyone must be equal no matter how unequal to the task of being equal every equivalent little twat is.

Special snowflakes should be melted in the white-hot heat of my disdain for their uniqueness.

Agreed, I had the most fun in SWG when I was some mediocre guy out in the wilderness beating shit up and ocassionally getting my ass handed to me, then came the CU and everyone was suddenly, magically fucking equal. Equally fucking useless. But apparently, since I liked things the old way, I "wasn't a team player" and "liked being uber", fuck that shit, I was by no means uber, I just liked not having to hang out with fucking hero-wannabe shitheels when I wanted to shoot some random space creature in the ass. Now everybody's a goddamn cookie cutter copy of everyone else and they all suck equally, whoopie fuckin' do.

[Nebu]

Rare loot would never work because everyone that plops down their $15 a month wants to be a special snowflake. 

Fuck them and all MMOG players in their stupid little clown shoe asses. That's part of the biggest problem with MMOG's. Everyone must be equal no matter how unequal to the task of being equal every equivalent little twat is.

Special snowflakes should be melted in the white-hot heat of my disdain for their uniqueness.

I agree.  This is my problem with mainstream mmog's (*cough* WoW *cough*).  In their urgency to appeal to the masses they generate a world of benign mediocrity. 

I want more niche games damnit!

[Hoax]

Fucking general public...

[Pococurante]

I hear this said a lot and I have to say I no longer agree with it.  The majority of MMOG subscribers today don't strike me as having the same expectations a lot of us early-timers had who came out of the early single-player RPG market or had D&D backgrounds.  From what I see most are content to use the game as a 3D chat room and/or large guild activities, neither of which elevates the player to the Big Hero Of The Land.

People today want to be entertained - they want that entertainment to be direct and not impersonal.  But that's not the same thing as a subscriberbase that demands devs pick the lint out of their navel either.

[Merusk]

I'm with you, Poco.   The complaints of "it's too easy" also seem too closely linked to "It doesn't make me catass enough" far too often for my comfort.  Wow is a fun game, with the emphasis on having fun.  That breaks-down at the high-end with the raiding bullshit, but saying 'it's too easy' because it doesn't punish you for wanting to just have fun is crap.  Not having to deal with the bullshit and time-sinks of older games just makes me all the happier when someone says they quit due to its ease.

[HaemishM]

But WoW DOES go the route of making the individual player the route of the hero. All the quests are focused on you (even the group ones), and it's very much about making what you do feel important to you no matter who else is involved. Now, I think that's one of its strengths, but at the same time, it does keep the idea of making rare, one-of-a-kind loot available. Imagine the wailing and gnashing of teeth if it were found that only 1 of an uber-item could be possessed on a server. Imagine the even bigger wailing and gnashing of teeth from the uber catass cockmunchers that would result if said item was lootable on PVP loss. Remember the Jedi perma-death thing?

Any idiot that says "it's too easy" should just hook up their genitals to a car battery and shock away every time they screw up or die. Death penalties are for people with small dicks trying to overcompensate. The challenge is in the process, not in the penalty when I fail. Failure is failure.

[Surlyboi]

Any idiot that says "it's too easy" should just hook up their genitals to a car battery and shock away every time they screw up or die. Death penalties are for people with small dicks trying to overcompensate. The challenge is in the process, not in the penalty when I fail. Failure is failure.

Amen.

[schild]

But WoW DOES go the route of making the individual player the route of the hero.

I felt more like one of those little peons running from trees back to bases going "oooooook." Like some sort of undead Lil Jon. Don't blame me for getting bored with my 50th fetch quest.

[Sky]

Any idiot that says "it's too easy" should just hook up their genitals to a car battery and shock away every time they screw up or die. Death penalties are for people with small dicks trying to overcompensate. The challenge is in the process, not in the penalty when I fail. Failure is failure

Shit, I knew I should've trademarked that idea.

[Nebu]

Some people don't like chess. It's too deep and involved for them. They hate the fact that they could spend a lifetime and never master the game.  They would rather play a game that they can hop right into and win immediately.  This is what entertains them.  In the past, they could have opted for checkers.  Checkers is a shallow learning curve game that can provide fun for the novice and expert alike.   There is nothing wrong with liking either game.  We all have different ways we like to be entertained.  It's all about diversity.   

Poker is another game that I think has people fooled into believing it's like checkers when in reality, it's more like chess.  People can play and become successful immediately, but success in the long run requires a much deeper dedication to the subtleties inherent to the game.  Someone that has studied poker and dedicated time to learn the game will find deeper satisfaction in very small improvements or refinements over time.  These masters of poker will win much more consistently.  Then there's the slot machine.  You pull the arm and get a result.  No skill.  No learning curve.  Still there are people entertained for hours playing slot machines.  

I don't like WoW because it was "too easy".  Bring on the car battery. 

WoW is a superficial action movie.  It's entertaining, but not in any sort of deep way.   While I appreciate these qualities about WoW, it didn't contain enough to warrant my long-term interest.  Considering the vast resources poured into the game, this fact disappointed me.  Games don't need to take longer to accomplish goals, they need to be deeper.  There are people that can master chess an poker quickly.  There are those that will take longer, but will master the games eventually.  There are also those that will never master the games and stick with checkers or the slot machines.  If I'm going to spend money on entertainment, I'll opt for chess or poker.  I'm the same with movies or books. It's a personal preference.


 

[HaemishM]

MMOG's are nothing like chess. Losing at a game of chess usually does not involve a kick in the chao sack, followed by the winner casting aspersions on both the loser's sexuality AND his mother's chastity, nor the mangling of the English language with symbols and numbers.

MMOG's are much more like poker, in that the loser is usually left bankrupt, naked and weeping with a bottle of Mad Dog.

[Merusk]

WoW is no deeper nor any more shallow than any other level-based MMO.  Most arguments looking for more 'depth' or 'challenge' from the game amount to, "I'm able to accomplish my goals too quickly, slow it down, I'm paying $15 a month I want this to take a long time."

There is a skill and a learning curve to WoW the same as to EQ, AC, AO, etc.  I say this because there are some clever people in the playerbase who have managed to take 'gimpy' classes and do some fantastic things with them.  In the same vein there are people who can regularly defeat 'overpowered' classes because they don't listen to the 'OMG unbeatable!' rhetoric.

However, all the 'hardcore' players have ignored this because they didn't get to be super-leet and parade around at the top end all by their lonesome.

[Hoax]

I dont see why "too easy" equals death penalty, but yes WoW's death penalty is a major part of my problem with it.  I dont need people to loose exp or get a hummer from an Interstate battery.  But I do need them to stay dead for enough time for me to regain my health and mana not bind rush me 30 seconds later thanks to WoW's 0 death penalty, not even a loss of time.

I would say I fall into the "too easy" camp but typically I'm referring to the lack of player skill needed to accomplish anything in the game, not my disapointment over a lack of opportunities to catass.

[Soln]

Rare loot would never work because everyone that plops down their $15 a month wants to be a special snowflake. 

Fuck them and all MMOG players in their stupid little clown shoe asses. That's part of the biggest problem with MMOG's. Everyone must be equal no matter how unequal to the task of being equal every equivalent little twat is.

Special snowflakes should be melted in the white-hot heat of my disdain for their uniqueness.

agreed, but then you have to fight everyone else's desire for "customization" and "uniqueness".  It ain't just green hair and funny tatoos that players want to distinguish themselves, it's that magic pointed stick.   And if you agree to scale that kind of stuff back, then the whole vision of "letting players tell their own stories" has to be reworked, or rejustified, and respun to players to make the buy$.  What I'm trying to say is that catass loot is sort of a part of the sandbox, so designers would need to apply extra customization in other ways that wouldn't unbalance the economy or combat to make up for it.

[Pococurante]

But I do need them to stay dead for enough time for me to regain my health and mana not bind rush me 30 seconds later thanks to WoW's 0 death penalty, not even a loss of time.

Ah but that is why I like death in WoW - you could always hearth away, pop an invis potion, etc... ;)

[Nebu]

WoW is no deeper nor any more shallow than any other level-based MMO.  Most arguments looking for more 'depth' or 'challenge' from the game amount to, "I'm able to accomplish my goals too quickly, slow it down, I'm paying $15 a month I want this to take a long time."

I agree.  My problem with WoW was that they had this ocean of resources available to them and still produced what amounts to the same level of superficial entertainment we've already seen.  What happens? The masses eat it up.  They're justified by continuing along a path of mediocrity.

The other reason I posted my particular rant was that I didn't want to leave anyone thinking that I wanted the rate of success slowed down in these games.  Games shouldn't be a grind but like a good puzzle.  A skilled person should appreciate the depth and fluorish in a reasonable amount of time.  Whacking 100, then 1000, then 10,000 foozles isn't a good way to separate players.  I think most of us believe that the time > skill paradign needs to be broken for MMOG's to advance to the next level. 

Ideally I'd like to see the best players be those able to understand the depth of the game rather than those that can devote the most time to it. Though it's often tough to make those two traits independant. I'd also like to see mental reflexes triumph over twitch... but that's more of a personal bias. 

[HaemishM]

I dont see why "too easy" equals death penalty, but yes WoW's death penalty is a major part of my problem with it.  I dont need people to loose exp or get a hummer from an Interstate battery.  But I do need them to stay dead for enough time for me to regain my health and mana not bind rush me 30 seconds later thanks to WoW's 0 death penalty, not even a loss of time.

I would say I fall into the "too easy" camp but typically I'm referring to the lack of player skill needed to accomplish anything in the game, not my disapointment over a lack of opportunities to catass.

That's not a problem of the death penalty, that's a problem with PVP being tacked onto a PVE game. Frankly, I don't have any clue why a PVP death in a WoW contested zone doesn't take you to a graveyard that is exclusively your faction's, far enough away from the other faction's graveyards that it's a walk back. I mean shit, you die in Ashenvale trying to take over Astranaar, you respawn at the graveyard outside Ashenvale. HUH?

But again, that has nothing to do with how harsh the death penalty is or not, that's just retarded, shortsighted design, grafting PVP into PVE zones.