The Perfect Storm

[Strazos]

As for using something 'more permanent' than just dirt for levees, it's REALLLY costly to build something like that.  On top of that, it's a lot harder to maintain since you have to do regular inspections to make sure the foundations aren't being washed out, unless you go down to bedrock and build from there.  It takes a whole lot of water to get dirt to the point it liquifies and washes away, and this was more severe than anything that was expected or planned for at the time most of these building were built.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thames_Barrier

What costs more; Countermeasures, or rebuilding a major city?

I'm not trying to be snarky, but some of the damage could have been mitigated if people ponied up the money. I'm suprised this hasn't happened before....It's a city, basically in a swamp, that is along the coast, and Below sea level - It was almost like the city was in a bowl, floating in the sink. This time, the water got high, and the top edges of the bowl broke away a bit.

[Cheddar]

That's why there's MANDATORY evacuations and you just need to adhere to them.  One thing I haven't heard is do counties even help people evacuate after they annoucne a mandatory evac?  Does the local media give as much coverage about how to get help getting the hell out as they do to the old 'reporter in the storm'? 

Local Police and Fireman were given the freedom to commandeer vehicles, and they drove around with airhorns telling people to get out ect ect.  Martial law was also declared beforehand, but I have yet to read anything about people being FORCED to leave. 

[Johny Cee]

Local Police and Fireman were given the freedom to commandeer vehicles, and they drove around with airhorns telling people to get out ect ect.  Martial law was also declared beforehand, but I have yet to read anything about people being FORCED to leave. 

Martial law,  or Martian Law?

I'm sure Haemish.....  I mean, Sir Phobos.....  is on the job.

[Kenrick]

Do you think they'll serve warm, flat Dome Foam?

Katrina Refugees Will Go to Astrodome
Aug 31 10:04 AM US/Eastern


HOUSTON


At least 25,000 of Hurricane Katrina's refugees, a majority of them at the New Orleans Superdome, will travel in a bus convoy to Houston starting Wednesday and will be sheltered at the 40-year-old Astrodome, which hasn't been used for professional sporting events in years.

Rusty Cornelius, administrative coordinator for the Harris County Office of Homeland Security and Emergency Management, told The Associated Press that initial plans were being made early Wednesday.

"We are planning on being able to do a full shelter operation for 25,000 people," he said.

Cornelius said the refugees would be bused to Houston, but all would not necessarily be on the road at the same time. He said specifics of the transport and housing for the refugees were still being worked out with the Red Cross and state government officials.

"We want to accommodate those people as quickly as possible for the simple reason they have been through a horrible ordeal," he said.

Gov. Kathleen Blanco has said she wanted the Superdome _ which had become a shelter of last resort for about 20,000 people _ evacuated within two days, along with other gathering points for storm refugees. The situation inside the dank and sweltering Superdome was becoming desperate: The water was rising, the air conditioning was out, toilets were broken, and tempers were rising.

The Astrodome is the famed landmark that helped put Houston on the map four decades ago. It still stands but is dwarfed by Reliant Stadium, the Houston Texans newly constructed home.

The Astrodome opened in 1965, 10 years before the Superdome in New Orleans.

link

[Hanzii]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thames_Barrier

What costs more; Countermeasures, or rebuilding a major city?

I'm not trying to be snarky, but some of the damage could have been mitigated if people ponied up the money. I'm suprised this hasn't happened before....It's a city, basically in a swamp, that is along the coast, and Below sea level - It was almost like the city was in a bowl, floating in the sink. This time, the water got high, and the top edges of the bowl broke away a bit.

Which part of 'Britain isn't prone to hurricanes' didn't you get?
Note how many times the word 'slow' is used in the article you linked too. It's costly but easier to protect London from a slowly growing flood risk. It would probably be impossible to protrct NO from a sudden catastrophic flood like this one.
Some parts of nature (volcanoes, earthquakes, tsunamis, hurricanes) we simply don't have the resources/capabilities to protect against. It sucks, but that's life.

Could more be done? Sure, probably. What is more costly.... hmm, who can tell. It also depends on who gets to pay - building codes puts the price on private construction companies, disaster relief puts the cost on taxpayers...

[Nevermore]

AP story

"We know there is a significant number of dead bodies in the water," and others dead in attics, Mayor Ray Nagin said. Asked how many, he said: "Minimum, hundreds. Most likely, thousands."

[Paelos]

Just a thought, but what does this mean for the Saints with the NFL season starting in a week?

[Shockeye]

Just a thought, but what does this mean for the Saints with the NFL season starting in a week?

I believe the Saint aren't scheduled to play at home until Sept. 18th.

What it means is the Saints need a new home.

09/11      at Carolina       12:00 PM CT
09/18    N.Y. Giants    12:00 PM CT
09/25    at Minnesota    12:00 PM CT
10/02    Buffalo    12:00 PM CT
10/09    at Green Bay    12:00 PM CT
10/16    Atlanta    12:00 PM CT
10/23    at St. Louis    12:00 PM CT
10/30    Miami    12:00 PM CT
11/06    Chicago    12:00 PM CT
     BYE    
11/20    at New England    12:00 PM CT
11/27    at N.Y. Jets    7:30 PM CT
12/04    Tampa Bay    12:00 PM CT
12/12    at Atlanta    8:00 PM CT
12/18    Carolina    12:00 PM CT
12/24    Detroit    12:00 PM CT
01/01    at Tampa Bay    12:00 PM CT

[EDIT] Saints may be going to the Alamodome.

[Righ]

It's true - Britain doesn't get hurricanes generally. What it gets are the remnants, usually at tropical storm strength at most. These too can be deadly, with winds gusting over 130mph. However, the tails of these storms tend to hit the NW of the island, which is not as susceptible to storm surges, which is what is being argued about here. One of the things that helps protect London from storm surges, and allows the flood barrier to be engineered for less dramatic flood rates is the system of inter-tidal mud flats and marshland in the estuary. If anything could have been done to better protect New Orleans, it would have been to deal with the collapse and erosion of the natural swampland in the estuary. It has been hypothesised that this had dramatically reduced the ability of the levee system to withstand storm surges. Would it have helped protect against the erosion of the lake levee in this category 4 storm? I don't know, but it certainly wouldn't have hurt.

[Strazos]

Which part of 'Britain isn't prone to hurricanes' didn't you get?
Note how many times the word 'slow' is used in the article you linked too. It's costly but easier to protect London from a slowly growing flood risk. It would probably be impossible to protrct NO from a sudden catastrophic flood like this one.
Some parts of nature (volcanoes, earthquakes, tsunamis, hurricanes) we simply don't have the resources/capabilities to protect against. It sucks, but that's life.

Could more be done? Sure, probably. What is more costly.... hmm, who can tell. It also depends on who gets to pay - building codes puts the price on private construction companies, disaster relief puts the cost on taxpayers...

Um, I never said London was vulnerable to hurricanes, but they Do guard themselves against known damaging weather.

The word "slow" was used twice on the page I linked, and in both instances referred to the slow increase of the threat of storm surges.
And I never said spending money would have stopped NO from getting fucked up; I'm just saying it may not have been as bad.

And either way, taxpayers will be footing a huge bill for this.

[Yegolev]

One thing I haven't heard is do counties even help people evacuate after they annoucne a mandatory evac?  Does the local media give as much coverage about how to get help getting the hell out as they do to the old 'reporter in the storm'?

I don't think that there is much done other than redirecting all traffic on the interstates to a single direction, but I'd have to ask.  I was never subject to a mandatory evacuation.

Seems like fuel prices are up to about $3 per gallon around Atlanta.  I'm going to see about telecommuting.  That flight to SanFran just got more expensive, too.

I just got word in my voicemail that The Company is donating five million dollars to the effort, as well as working directly with FEMA to deliver product where needed.

[Evangolis]

For those with political views, I've started a thread in politics to vent on a few points that bother me.

[voodoolily]

Countermeasures are always a case of too little too late. Simple solutions? Quit filling wetlands, build above sea level, don't build within FEMA-mapped hazard zones. This is a tragic case of "the foolish man built his house on the sand", and despite federal regulations protecting wetlands under Section 404 of the Clean Water ACt, not all states have their own wetlands regulations. Oregon has pretty strict ones, but some states have none at all. Wetlands aren't just cute lil' frog and heron habitat, and they're not just breeding grounds for gators and mosquitos - they serve an ecological purpose that incidentally protects human interests too. Maybe this will force ALL coastal states to conduct analyses of the economic, environmental, social and energy costs of allowing conflicting uses within ecologically sensitive areas.

[stray]

Yeah, but NO, for instance, is one of the oldest cities in the United States (I know I'm just pointing out the obvious here, but it has to be said). It's been around since the early 1700's. Hell, that whole region was developed and colonized much before the rest of the country. They didn't exactly have FEMA in King Louis' time to know better. And it wasn't very practical to change much of anything once people did know any better. It's not the same situation as when people build a pretty little beach house by the Florida gulf, or like those idiots who build next to volcanos in Hawaii.

That being said, now that it's gone, I wonder if it's really worth it to rebuild again. Seriously. Would it be less expensive to just relocate people and help them get on with their lives somewhere else? How much does it cost to pretty much rebuild an entire major metropolitan area?

[Cheddar]

Yeah, but NO, for instance, is one of the oldest cities in the United States (I know I'm just pointing out the obvious here, but it has to be said). It's been around since the early 1700's. Hell, that whole region was developed and colonized much before the rest of the country. They didn't exactly have FEMA in King Louis' time to know better. And it wasn't very practical to change much of anything once people did know any better. It's not the same situation as when people build a pretty little beach house by the Florida gulf, or like those idiots who build next to volcanos in Hawaii.

That being said, now that it's gone, I wonder if it's really worth it to rebuild again. Seriously. Would it be less expensive to just relocate people and help them get on with their lives somewhere else? How much does it cost to pretty much rebuild an entire major metropolitan area?

NO was (past tense on purpose) one of our most important ports for the country.  So yes, we DO need to rebuild it to some extent.  You cannot replace its strategic location; one of the reasons it was so popular was for where it was. 

[SuperPopTart]

That being said, now that it's gone, I wonder if it's really worth it to rebuild again. Seriously. Would it be less expensive to just relocate people and help them get on with their lives somewhere else? How much does it cost to pretty much rebuild an entire major metropolitan area?

It is always worth it to rebuild again. Especially in a situation like this. I really wish you guys had the local channels down here or were able to visit the shelters or feel like a fucking heel because you can't do too much or enough for these people, because to hear them talk and speak and the desire to just keep going is a beautiful and inspiring thing.  I only wish I had the positivity and the strength these people do. Christ I feel like complete shit because we lost shingles on our house and power/phone.

These people lost the things (in some cases VERY LITTLE things) they had.  Yet they have the will to just keep going..

Can you really start questioning price at a time like this?


Anyway, I forgot to add because I am posting from limited connection speed at the moment but please help the people down here. If you are in the south and can volunteer any time, please go to your local Red Cross or even www.RedCross.org and donate your time/money to them because they are in dire need of supplies and donations.

And Strazos, you are normally an ass but your tactical nuke comment was particularly ridiculous. So this one's for you buddy, may New Jersey never go up in fucking flames.



And in case any of you want to see what's happening down here:

http://www.thejacksonchannel.com

http://www.clarionledger.com/apps/pbcs.dll/section?Category=NEWS0110&template=slide Link to many multiple slideshows.

And god bless absolutely everyone in the SouthEast.

[Cheddar]

I talked to some military guys, and they had people show up at the base and ask for rides down there so they could help out.  Not kidding.  They got a free ride from some of the troops transports; hopefully they are able to provide assistance.  I am still trying to figure out how I get activated; short of military activation, I do not see myself able to go help.  Besides the fact that I am flat broke I do not think the school will let me off for a semester.  Not without paying serious money I do not have.


Also, in Strays defense, he has a good point.  Is it worth creating a ghetto metropolis for drunk women to show what low self esteem they have?  In his defense and all. 

[stray]

It's not meant to be insensitive. It's just hard to fathom how it's all going to work. Logistics wise, manpower wise, health wise, financially.... People can be positive and all that, but this is a disaster that no one in our country has experienced before. The same people who are staying positive are the same people who underestimated a Cat 5 and decided to "ride it out". Their "positivity" could very well be as impractical as their "courage" was 4 days ago.

I'm not saying it should be left as a swamp or anything. The country could get it up and running for industrial reasons fairly quickly...But I'm talking about residential areas. Miles and miles of homes are gone. Businesses are kaput. Who's going to rebuild that? Where's the money coming from? And who gets and doesn't get to live in these homes? And how does the average person support and sustain themselves in these homes, seeing that there won't be as many options for employment?

[Merusk]

While this is 'unheard of' in the modern US, rebuilding an entiere city is not unheard of historicly. It's fatalistic and naive to say that NO will not be rebuilt. It's not optomisim, it's fact.  Andrew did far more devastation to Florida across a wider swath, and nobody abandoned the Miami coast. This is just so horrible because it's so concentrated, and the city is in a damn lousy area.  This should be seen by Orleans city planners as an opportunity to fix some of the 'oh that just happened.." mistakes 200 years of unplanned (as in design)  growth.

[Strazos]

And Strazos, you are normally an ass but your tactical nuke comment was particularly ridiculous. So this one's for you buddy, may New Jersey never go up in fucking flames.

Thanks for taking it out of context for me, but it was already quite clear that I was referring to the people who take this as an oppurtunity to run down the street and help themselves to a new TV and a pair of Air Jordans. There is nothing that can justify this; It just makes a bad situation worse.

[Evangolis]

Yeah, but NO, for instance, is one of the oldest cities in the United States (I know I'm just pointing out the obvious here, but it has to be said). It's been around since the early 1700's. Hell, that whole region was developed and colonized much before the rest of the country. They didn't exactly have FEMA in King Louis' time to know better. And it wasn't very practical to change much of anything once people did know any better. It's not the same situation as when people build a pretty little beach house by the Florida gulf, or like those idiots who build next to volcanos in Hawaii.

That being said, now that it's gone, I wonder if it's really worth it to rebuild again. Seriously. Would it be less expensive to just relocate people and help them get on with their lives somewhere else? How much does it cost to pretty much rebuild an entire major metropolitan area?

In defense of the original inhabitants, they mostly built on the parts of the swamp that were above sea level.

On reconstruction, certainly some of it should be rebuilt, but I wonder at building again in the low lying areas.  When my grandfather got flooded out in 1936, he rebuilt and carried on, but he did it on the bluff, not back on the floodplain.

[Lemming]

I'm sure we'll probably rebuild the whole city again.  Much of the greater New Orleans area was swamp no more than 40-50 years ago.  They pumped the water then, and I guess we'll do it again.  IMO, the problem is the cutting of federal funds to the Army Corps of Engineers. That money was supposed to go to solving the levee problem that we've known about for years.  Everyone in New Orleans has been talking about this exact problem for as long as I can remember.  Hopefully, when we rebuild, the government will see fit to give the Army Corps of Engineers the proper funding to make sure that we don't have a problem like this in the future.

On another topic, Dallas kicks ass.  Cheap drinks and hot chicks.  If I have to be seperated from my drinking buddies and parties in New Orleans, there aren't many other places I'd rather be.  If you're a hot fem irl, make sure to give up the sympathy puddin' to your local New Orleans refugees.

[Cheddar]

I'm sure we'll probably rebuild the whole city again.  Much of the greater New Orleans area was swamp no more than 40-50 years ago.  They pumped the water then, and I guess we'll do it again.  IMO, the problem is the cutting of federal funds to the Army Corps of Engineers. That money was supposed to go to solving the levee problem that we've known about for years.  Everyone in New Orleans has been talking about this exact problem for as long as I can remember.  Hopefully, when we rebuild, the government will see fit to give the Army Corps of Engineers the proper funding to make sure that we don't have a problem like this in the future.

On another topic, Dallas kicks ass.  Cheap drinks and hot chicks.  If I have to be seperated from my drinking buddies and parties in New Orleans, there aren't many other places I'd rather be.  If you're a hot fem irl, make sure to give up the sympathy puddin' to your local New Orleans refugees.

There is already talk of simply levelling everything and dredging dirt to raise the body of NO above water (this was done elsewhere after a natural distaster, the name escapes me at the moment).  That toxic sludge they were talking about?  Yeah, its there.  Basically everything is going to be worthless by the time the pumping is finished (minimum of a month in most places).  Also note that the levee that failed was the most recent one touted to be the shiznit.  Now people are talking about how the multi million dollar contract for it went to people who "knew" people. 

And yes, I agree, if you are a hot fem irl, please share your pudding with this man (who may or may not be a refugee from NO, I am just assuming he is). 

Seriously.

[Lemming]

Only problem with raising the city above sea level is that it will just sink eventually anyway.  It doesn't really bother me, my part of town is about 3-4ft above sea level.

Now people are talking about how the multi million dollar contract for it went to people who "knew" people.

This really doesn't surprise me.  Public funds in New Orleans tend to go to people who "knew" people.

[stray]

[edit] Nevermind. That was close to derail territory.

Anyways..

[schild]

Now people are talking about how the multi million dollar contract for it went to people who "knew" people.

This really doesn't surprise me.  Public funds in New Orleans tend to go to people who "knew" people.

Newsflash: This is not isolated. Money always goes to people who know people. Always. Except with the lottery, then it goes to people with the worst debt, or at least that's my theory.

[kaid]

One thing I can see happening is if they do rebuild new orleans and I assume they will they are going to either have to make a much more robust levy system and or a great deal of changes to their building codes. That city is built along a coast in a bowl shapped area thats below sea level. That is a disaster waiting to happen. The older parts of town got by at least the main hurricane pretty well and that was because the people recognized that hey we are living in a swamp build on the highest ground we can.

The sprawl that occured over the years sprawled into very dangerous areas and the city plan may very well need to be changed to be more realistic about its positioning.

I think new orleans WILL be rebuilt but I am wondering if they will rebuild it in the exact same place or if they will take this time to replan the whole city and do it right. The slate has been wiped clean if they want to ever design it better now is the freaking time to do so.

kaid

[Murgos]

New Orleans is built where it is because that is where the Mississippi drains into the Gulf Of Mexico.  If you need any more explanation than that then I suggest multiple courses on economics and critical thinking at the local U.  However many billions it costs to rebuild New Orleans in the exact same spot it is a pittance compared to how much in $$'s of trade and industry that has to pass though that spot in any given year.

[Soln]

I'm worried about this.  All bullshit aside, I think this is really bad. It's disastrous for those states and I'm bloody sympathetic.  But it will affect everyone outside those places too. I'm in Canada, and here's why I'm worried:

• credible estimates that 25% of the US oil refining capability suspended
• "About a third of the petroleum produced in the U.S. (which meets 45% of U.S. demand), is from the Gulf of Mexico, and 90% of that moves through Louisiana" Clicky
• oil by the barrel already reached record high this month before Katrina, before that loss of US production
• gas at the pumps has jumped $.30 roughly in the last 3 weeks in Canada.  Seriously.  It's $1.28 a litre where I live. 
• gas prices affect everything at large (Consumer Price Index), cost of living will go up (e.g. food more expensive because of trucking, fuel oil for home heating will be near double this year (jeebus), airline travel, bus travel, etc.)
• gas prices will now NEVER go below $1 again, since as a dwindling resource and economic shift, it always increases for inflation.  And greed.
• will salaries go up accordingly?  they should, but only after the CPI is shown to increase, or there's real evidence of inflation.  Of course, have to have the cash to afford those salaries.  And remember offshoring.
• I suppose we should start realizing that we are indeed running out of oil long-term, even if we get over this short-term lack of supply

oh, and possibly many many corpses in a flooded area creating disease

[stray]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9150429/

Sums it up

[Merusk]

[li]will salaries go up accordingly?  they should, but only after the CPI is shown to increase, or there's real evidence of inflation.  Of course, have to have the cash to afford those salaries.  And remember offshoring.[/li]

I don't expect wages to go up anywhere near the % that all goods are about to increase. (I'd heard this morning that some places were already increasing prices due to increased shipping costs, since if truckers can't pay for gas there simply are no goods to buy.)   Even prior to the hurricane forming I'd seen an article that mentioned how wages were likely to remain level because companies were more focused on profit than recompensation workers for increased productivity.  This upcoming increase in cost is going to depress job growth and wages, not help it. Not posting increased growth/ profits is 'unacceptable' even despite a huge tragedy like this that will shake the entire economy.  That means paying people less to do more as you increase costs to keep the same overhead.

Yeah, it's shortsighted and will blow-up eventualy, but in the short term (like 10 years) I'd say we're ALL pretty fucked.

[stray]

Looks like 25,000 New Orleandors (sp?) are coming to my city now. And we get the Saints too!

[Cheddar]

What bothers me is the people where I live.  They honestly have no idea of the impact this will have for the nation; to them it is just another Andrew, effecting people in another state.  I love the Hampton Roads, but sometimes I wonder about the people.  Is it like this in other areas of the country?

[Roac]

What bothers me is the people where I live.  They honestly have no idea of the impact this will have for the nation; to them it is just another Andrew, effecting people in another state.  I love the Hampton Roads, but sometimes I wonder about the people.  Is it like this in other areas of the country?

I dunno, I think people have watched the jump in gas prices and have a clue.  It's already up 50c/gal here, and coworkers are saying some stations where they live (rural and outside the city) are out of gas.  I haven't seen or heard of any stations in the city out of gas, but there are lines.  Government owned gas pumps (used by state vehicles) ran dry.  People I've spoken with know that this is really bad, but what are you going to do?    Not much has changed except the jokes about gas prices and riding bicycles, because there's not much else that can be done.

[WayAbvPar]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9150429/

Sums it up

"This is the worst case," Hugh B. Kaufman, a senior policy analyst at the Environmental Protection Agency, said of the toxic stew that contaminates New Orleans. "There is not enough money in the gross national product of the United States to dispose of the amount of hazardous material in the area."

Wow. This is still surreal to me...not sure when the enormity of it is going to sink in.