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Paelos
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Reply #35 on: August 20, 2005, 02:01:43 PM

Yeah, it may not be overall, but on Proudmoore, it's just dumb. WAY too many hunters in comparison to their utility in the endgame. Warriors are starting to pick up in population and even out. Rogues are still a dime a dozen and pallys are everywhere. Plus they are Aussies, which I used to like until I had to deal with their f'd time zone.

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Reply #36 on: August 20, 2005, 02:12:28 PM

Yeah, it may not be overall, but on Proudmoore, it's just dumb. WAY too many hunters in comparison to their utility in the endgame. Warriors are starting to pick up in population and even out. Rogues are still a dime a dozen and pallys are everywhere. Plus they are Aussies, which I used to like until I had to deal with their f'd time zone.
I hate aussies in general since every one I've grouped with has been a dumbass. I play at weird times anyway (usually rather late at night), so they make up the majority of the people playing when I'm on.

I did the Sunken Temple just recently with some of my guildmates, and we had a bit of a weird group. 2 level 60 Hunters, My friend's level 60 pally, my warrior, and a level 60 Warlock. That instance fucking sucked, but we only wiped once, and that was only because we missed cleaning out a single group of dragonkin before fighting that stupid shade (which kept me banished for a good 90% of the fight).

Point is, I actually liked having the 2 hunters in our group. They aren't a plate wearing class, but they're hard enough to live for a bit if they over-aggro. I think we would've had a harder time had we had a priest or mage instead of one of the hunters.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2005, 02:14:15 PM by Fabricated »

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Calantus
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Reply #37 on: August 20, 2005, 02:54:16 PM

I've said it before and I'll say it again. As an aussie my advice to the world is to NEVER play on the "Unofficial Australian Server". I don't know why, but they are always full of extreme fucktards.
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Reply #38 on: August 23, 2005, 12:12:03 PM

I like things like the fishing extravaganza - nice to see content that makes a richer environment.  My warlock and hunter both love this patch.
Paelos
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Reply #39 on: August 23, 2005, 12:19:35 PM

I'm curious about the fishing thing. Is it like the fair where it happens monthly? Or is it like Children's Week where it's once a year? Or does it not repeat at all?

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Reply #40 on: August 23, 2005, 01:13:33 PM

Sounds like a weekly thing, perhaps several times a week.  Patch wasn't clear on times just that one has to keep an ear out for town criers in the major cities.
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Reply #41 on: August 24, 2005, 02:23:32 PM

Yeah, it may not be overall, but on Proudmoore, it's just dumb. WAY too many hunters in comparison to their utility in the endgame. Warriors are starting to pick up in population and even out. Rogues are still a dime a dozen and pallys are everywhere. Plus they are Aussies, which I used to like until I had to deal with their f'd time zone.
I hate aussies in general since every one I've grouped with has been a dumbass. I play at weird times anyway (usually rather late at night), so they make up the majority of the people playing when I'm on.

I did the Sunken Temple just recently with some of my guildmates, and we had a bit of a weird group. 2 level 60 Hunters, My friend's level 60 pally, my warrior, and a level 60 Warlock. That instance fucking sucked, but we only wiped once, and that was only because we missed cleaning out a single group of dragonkin before fighting that stupid shade (which kept me banished for a good 90% of the fight).

Point is, I actually liked having the 2 hunters in our group. They aren't a plate wearing class, but they're hard enough to live for a bit if they over-aggro. I think we would've had a harder time had we had a priest or mage instead of one of the hunters.

You did a low 50s instance with a buncha level 60s, of course it doesnt matter what class you bring in that case.

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Reply #42 on: August 25, 2005, 06:51:15 AM

Bah my group of 5 hunters did sunken temple at level 55 so yes hunters can work fine in there. Infact its one of our better dungeons due to track to make sure you got all the dragonkin and its so wide open in there. Now places like blackrock spire make me stabby due to the cramped areas and lack of good line of sight for ranged attacks.

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Reply #43 on: August 25, 2005, 06:54:12 AM

Bah my group of 5 hunters did sunken temple at level 55 so yes hunters can work fine in there. Infact its one of our better dungeons due to track to make sure you got all the dragonkin and its so wide open in there. Now places like blackrock spire make me stabby due to the cramped areas and lack of good line of sight for ranged attacks.

kaid

ST can be done at 48-52.
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Reply #44 on: August 25, 2005, 07:01:12 AM

We could clear everything but the dragon at about 52. The dragon just hit a bit to hard for the pets at that level. The new pet upgrades with the added armor should really help that out. The biggest problem with hunters is our pets generally lag behind us by a level or two due to them not getting quest xp. So an even up fight actually is hitting your pet harder than normal. The extra 10% armor mitigation and good nature resists would have made the dragon fight cake for us at that level.

kaid
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Reply #45 on: August 25, 2005, 07:38:38 AM

We could clear everything but the dragon at about 52. The dragon just hit a bit to hard for the pets at that level. The new pet upgrades with the added armor should really help that out. The biggest problem with hunters is our pets generally lag behind us by a level or two due to them not getting quest xp. So an even up fight actually is hitting your pet harder than normal. The extra 10% armor mitigation and good nature resists would have made the dragon fight cake for us at that level.

kaid

Good point.
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Reply #46 on: August 25, 2005, 07:59:59 AM

Huh.. they must have done something to pet xp then.  My pet was only ever a max of 1/2 level behind me for the length of my hunter's career.   Of course, I often played w/o more than a bubble or so of rest xp, so I wasn't getting the bonus xp that'd push me that much farther past my pet.  Pets take much less xp than players per level by design so they don't fall too far behind because of quest xp.  Rest xp isn't accounted for, though.

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Reply #47 on: August 25, 2005, 08:27:52 AM

Its not that pet xp was changed its that I am ALWAYS in a 5 man group. We blow through quests VERY VERY VERY quickly so we tend to do very little grinding and mostly questing. This is kinda bad on the pets because you start zooming up and they lag a couple levels behind.

If you only solo or duo then yes the pet has a much better chance of staying at your level because the rate you can plow through quests is a good bit slower. Even still if you work quests at all at the higher levels generally you will be a level or two ahead of your pet as you near 60.

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Reply #48 on: August 25, 2005, 02:15:52 PM

Its not that pet xp was changed its that I am ALWAYS in a 5 man group. We blow through quests VERY VERY VERY quickly so we tend to do very little grinding and mostly questing. This is kinda bad on the pets because you start zooming up and they lag a couple levels behind.

If you only solo or duo then yes the pet has a much better chance of staying at your level because the rate you can plow through quests is a good bit slower. Even still if you work quests at all at the higher levels generally you will be a level or two ahead of your pet as you near 60.

kaid

I soloed my second hunter to 60 and tried to keep 2 pets caught up for a while. Dispite rarely having more than the previous sleep time's rest experience, and grinding a bit when I didn't feel like questing, I found typically it took 2/3 of my current level for my pet to ding, making keeping 2 pets leveled up more trouble than it was worth. Pet experience is weird atm (fix inc next patch) The pet gets the same experience you do from a kill, and in a group gets half to 1/5 that. This made leveling up low level pets insanely tedius at 60 as you had to kill things you'd get experience from with no help from the pet and it would get maybe 100-200 experience from anything a hunter can reasonably melee solo. Even with the reduced experience required for a pet to level this was insanely slow. They are changing it so the pet get's experience relative to it's level compared to what you kill so that should speed up leveling pets a bit but still the hunter has to be able to melee the thing solo because a low level pet wont be able to hold agro or damage a mob significantly higher than it.

As per the patch changes for hunters, personally I think they suck ass. Blizzard claims with the available talents we should come out 3% more dmg but most people who've done the math show more like 5% reduction in PvE raiding dps.

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Reply #49 on: August 26, 2005, 06:25:52 AM

Actually that really depends on the build. I have seen raiding numbers for damage with the improved aspect of the hawk mostly marksman and a smattering of survival come out well on top of where they used to be.

With improved aspect of the hawk if you use a fast bow or gun from the parses I have seen you can keep the buff on you almost constantly. That bow hurricane is a freaking chaingun with this change although the ammount of ammo you would go through scares me.

My build on test shows my damage to be very comparable. I lose a bit on the top end crits but I gain better avg damage and I crit more often with my 20 marksman 31 survival build. One nice thing is with hawkeye being so low in the marksman tree now all raiding hunters no matter their build can pick it up pretty easily. That is a HUGE boost in survival ability and long term dps for those hunters who were not cookie cutter marksman. Being able to shoot a mob from outside its max aoe range is a GOOD THING TM.

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Reply #50 on: August 31, 2005, 11:15:40 AM

One thing not mentioned in the patch notes is a nice little mage nerf:

Lucifron got the range on his AoE curse extended to 41 yards, and Magmadar got the range on his AoE fear extended to 41 yards.  So the one tiny insignificant place in MC that the fire mage actually had an advantage has been mercilessly squashed.  Yet another indication that Thou Shall Not Have Fun, Unless He Intended It

No sand in the pussy over this, trivial encounters both, but hateful nonetheless.
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Reply #51 on: August 31, 2005, 11:20:12 AM

Isn't that somewhat of a direct hunter nerf also? My old guild had a ton of hunters that could stand a max range and plunk away with impunity. 

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Reply #52 on: August 31, 2005, 11:41:52 AM

I found that change amusing. The reason they put hawkeye so low was so hunters could be "low maintenace" damage and stay out of aoe range. So what do they do they change the aoe range to be 41 yards so the whole shifting of hawkeye is totally moot now. Ah well in pvp the long range is still a god send.


kaid
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Reply #53 on: August 31, 2005, 11:54:39 AM

Quote from: Ordinn
Top In-game Issues 8/31/05 | 8/31/2005 11:09:27 AM PDT

Hey all,

We wanted to provide you with some information on the top issues our GM team is dealing with right now.

Thanks,

CMs

Raid IDs

Some players are currently bound to a raid ID and are unable to get a new ID. If those players have switched guilds and need to obtain a new ID in order to participate in raids, they can petition a GM. The GMs will note the player account, and if after 6 days from the petition time the player still has the same ID, the GM team will reset the ID. We have a potential fix for this planned for patch 1.7.

Warsong Gulch

We see a lot of complaints / petitions about players using the terrain in front of the Horde graveyard to go up and down the hill. Since both factions can run up and down this hill without any help or cheats, and it neither hinders nor gives the other side an advantage, GMs will not be punishing players for this issue.

Players using The Judge’s Gavel for the proc is not an exploit. However, the proc has been changed for 1.7 to a stun that will not make players drop the flag.

Another WSG issue is Alliance priests mind controlling a Horde flag carrier, then having a paladin cast protection shield on them; this makes the Horde flag carrier drop the flag. This technique will not work after patch 1.7. Until that time, GMs will not be punishing players for using this technique.

Cascading Raid Instances

If a guild is found using any methods to circumvent a raid timer to kill a boss in any raid instance faster then the raid timer allows per week, they will be punished for exploiting game mechanics. Basically, if a guild kills Ragnaros twice in less than six days from the start of the raid ID, they’ve exploited.

Update: changed the Cascading Raid Instance for all the players who posted about it below.
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Reply #54 on: August 31, 2005, 12:31:15 PM

My old guild had a ton of hunters that could stand a max range and plunk away with impunity. 
Otherwise known as "perching" when you can range-attack a mob that cannot fight back. Most games either eventually ban people for it, remove the "perches" from the landscape, or make mobs able to hit perchers. Looks like WoW did the latter in this case.

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Reply #55 on: August 31, 2005, 12:50:55 PM

My old guild had a ton of hunters that could stand a max range and plunk away with impunity. 
Otherwise known as "perching" when you can range-attack a mob that cannot fight back. Most games either eventually ban people for it, remove the "perches" from the landscape, or make mobs able to hit perchers. Looks like WoW did the latter in this case.

It's not perching to stand outside an AoE effect, dimbulb. Trust me, when the main tank healing fucked up and I went to the top of the hate list, Magmadar was more than able to path to me. If he couldn't, that would have been perching.

This will make tranq shot marginally more challenging. Old Magmadar was all about positioning. Folks will have to pay a tad more attention now. Also, decursive won't work at all. I suspect that will screw more MC groups up.

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Calantus
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Reply #56 on: August 31, 2005, 03:02:13 PM

Cascading Raid Instances

If a guild is found using any methods to circumvent a raid timer to kill a boss in any raid instance faster then the raid timer allows per week, they will be punished for exploiting game mechanics. Basically, if a guild kills Ragnaros twice in less than six days from the start of the raid ID, they’ve exploited.

They really should know better than to just throw up a term like "guild" for this. What about large guilds or alt runs? Obviously you're not going to get banned if you are in your guild's 2nd MC raid, nor if your alt raids up MC, so why not just say "character"?
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Reply #57 on: August 31, 2005, 06:29:34 PM

Given that some servers have problems filling battlegrounds already, is more really a good thing?

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Reply #58 on: August 31, 2005, 08:02:40 PM

Given that some servers have problems filling battlegrounds already, is more really a good thing?

It's a smaller pop.BG.  The only one servers have a problem filling is the 40-vs-40 Alterac Valley.  You can never get/keep enough Horde interested to get it going and keep it going on most servers.  This new one is 15 vs 15.. and the 10vs10 are always going, so it shouldn't be too big a problem.

It's Blizz's way of answering the population imbalance while simultaniously ignoring it.

 Also, on the hunter talents.  Just from an hour or two of testing today I found that 5b/31m/15s was more DPS than the 5b/15m/31s I'd seen a lot of people advocating.  Yeah I critted less often, and had less Agi but every damage shot was for more and my atk power was > with TS and AOTH. Also since Barrage and Ranged Weapon spec stack, multi spamming adds a LOT of damage. (I critted several multis for 1100-1200.) 

This is with a base Agi of 308, upped to 355 with the talents. My ATK was 920 with Survival and 926 with Marks, so more agi will probably edge it out.  I fought 20 of the orcs in Burning Steppes for around 400 attacks with both specs.  I plan on trying out beast mastery tomorrow.

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Reply #59 on: August 31, 2005, 08:15:19 PM

WSg will be garbage until all types of travel forms are nerfed when flag carrying.

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Reply #60 on: August 31, 2005, 10:07:55 PM

WSg will be garbage until all types of travel forms are nerfed when flag carrying.

This is so much less a problem than is poor teamwork.
Calantus
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Reply #61 on: August 31, 2005, 11:53:09 PM

Warsong Gulch

We see a lot of complaints / petitions about players using the terrain in front of the Horde graveyard to go up and down the hill. Since both factions can run up and down this hill without any help or cheats, and it neither hinders nor gives the other side an advantage, GMs will not be punishing players for this issue.

Oh yeah I forgot to comment on this before. What the fuck are they smoking? Horde having an extra way into their base that is also the fastest way to cap a flag and the best way to get to their graveyard reinforcements is not an advantage? Mkay. If the dickheads had any clue they'd realise that if you're gonna make a CTF map with both sides being almost identical, you don't just add another path for one team. That's so insanely stupid I can't believe they're just giving the issue the big ol' /shrug.
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Reply #62 on: September 01, 2005, 07:13:53 AM

I was testing a build last night with my hunter that was 20 marksman 31 beastmastery. I was pretty shocked to see that my ranged DPS was very comparable to what it was before. Less off the top end on my big aimed shot crits but I was still landing aimed shots for over 1500 damage. And the pets power want up like a freaking rocket. In the few pvp fights I had I introduced a priest and a warlock to snuffles the warpig mk2. Snuffles when in bestial wrath crits for between 300 and 350 damage and with all my other beastmastery talents he was doing it FAST.

With the best armor improvement and the 3rd best stamina improvement snuffles had 6400 ac and 4k hp. His armor mitigation vs level 60 opponents was listed as 53.4%. Soloing elites at tyrs hand is a freaking joke with him I wind up every fight very close to full mana. I just auto shot and let the piggy man handle them.

The new screech talent for bats and birds looks very nice as well. It drops attack power by 100 for everything in melee range of the pet when it screechs. it also does damage similar to that of claw with a slower reuse so you can have bite and screech and growl up without raping the pets energy.


All in all I think I am changing my plans for a marksman survival or survivla marksman hunter into having the biggest baddest pig I can get.

For those who think I would be gimping ranged damage please note that the only thing I am giving up is range weapon specalist and barrage and gaining a pretty damn nice rapid fire proc that goes off very frequently.


kaid
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Reply #63 on: September 01, 2005, 07:51:36 AM

I'd have posted the actual DPS numbers I got with the builds above, but I can't help but keep thinking they're flawed.

The Marksman build over the course of 20 fights averaged 195DPS average, with shitty gear (I'm no MC raider, and own no purples. My uber weapon is the carapice spine crossbow) and a 1.4spd cat using bite/claw (Yes I told the parser to count the cat. He's part of the class, damnit. <insert angry rant about folks wanting to only count the hunter dps>)

The Survival build netted me 145DPS average against the same mobs for the same number of fights.

That's a VERY significant change in DPS there. I didn't change my fight style or fight order between the two builds, so I think what may have borked it is multishot.  The orcs I was fighting have 2 multi-spawns, and I don't bother with ice trap in those cases.  This meant multi would hit both orcs and in several of the MM-build cases it crit on both hits, pushing my DPS for that fight up to 333 or more. The survival build would get similar hits, but without the Ranged Weap spec and Barrage the crits were only around 4-500 when they hit.  My DPS didn't spike anywhere NEAR as much on those fights as it did with Marks.

There's an onxyia raid at 6est on test, Alliance Side tonight.  I think I'll join it and see what I can do with the MM build, since a lot of the other hunters in the 'test server people' guild were going survival.

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Reply #64 on: September 01, 2005, 11:17:21 AM

Marksman in an aoe situation WILL outdamage the survival build but it depends if you get lucky crits. If you are all marksman now you have a 15% boost to damage when using volley and multishot. I will miss my extra multshot boost because in situations were you can use it its awsome.

If you go survival marksman the only dps bonus you lack is ranged spec and barrage. You gain more than enough in survival to make up for the ranged one and against single targets it likely will do a bit more than a pure marksman. Barrage though with 15% boost times three every time you multishot can add up fast.

kaid
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Reply #65 on: September 01, 2005, 03:47:31 PM

Oh yeah I forgot to comment on this before. What the fuck are they smoking? Horde having an extra way into their base that is also the fastest way to cap a flag and the best way to get to their graveyard reinforcements is not an advantage? Mkay. If the dickheads had any clue they'd realise that if you're gonna make a CTF map with both sides being almost identical, you don't just add another path for one team. That's so insanely stupid I can't believe they're just giving the issue the big ol' /shrug.

I think it's because terrain (and bases) do precisely jack for strategy in this game.  Alliance (at least on my server) spends as much time in the Horde base as the Horde does, so having another way in is as helpful to them as it is to us.  It's easier for everyone to get to the Horde flag room, Alliance and Horde alike.  I haven't noticed that path back being noticeably faster than the tunnel, and it doesn't go by the haste powerup, so I don't use it anyway when I'm running a flag.

That being said, it was pretty obviously a mistake on their part, and I'm surprised they're not fixing it.  I'd like to believe that they realized that this BG is a fucking waste of time, and they're focusing on other options to improve it, though.  Perhaps giving at least a cursory glance to one of the eight million other multiplayer PC games who've thought that what the world really needs is yet another capture the damned flag mod, and noticing perhaps some features which make WSG one of the worst of these (such as a map designed by someone who knows at least enough not to make the thing wider than it is long, or perhaps the idea that characters would be somehow close to balanced for this mode, or that the defense should have some kind of tactical advantage against attackers).

Incidentally, has anyone played that new Arathi Basin BG?  Is it any good?  I hear it's tiered, so I should be able to get my characters into it, but the description of it sounds a lot like a BF1942 style node control game, so I'm worried it's going to be another shitty "me-too" kind of thing.
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Reply #66 on: September 01, 2005, 04:13:44 PM

Yeah that's my main point, even if there is no tactical advantage persay, it is still a new path that only one side of the map gets. I have used it to my advantage a few times btw, going the tunnel can get you killed if you don't have backup and alliance are on your tail (especially as a shaman, hello indoors), but if you go up the hill you get to go right past your GY and get reinforced.

As for AB, it's quite fun. The way it works encourages your side to split up and take on the enemy in small groups at different points in the map. It's a little like roaming pvp only with actual people to fight. My favourite is that you don't get zerged all that often. If you face up against a duo, chances are they will still be a duo when you/they die. I like that. It's also the most PVPish BG as you really HAVE to fight, whereas AV forces NPC battles and WSG discourages fighting to an extent. In AB the path and key to victory is killing other players, 'cause only a retard is gonna let you cap a node when they're alive and in the area.

EDIT: Although... a few times we've had hunters/mages just kite around a bit and then attack us when we go to cap. When we go to engage they just run again. That's kinda annoying. We'll see how that pans out though. Also the alliance on Test seem to have a hard-on for exploiting the games to get all the resources before the game officially starts. Me, I don't care, it's Test for christ's sake, but I DO have to listen to people bitch and that annoys me.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2005, 04:17:23 PM by Calantus »
TheWalrus
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Reply #67 on: September 01, 2005, 06:06:44 PM

  I was under the impression there was another way to get into the alliance base in WSG besides tunnel/ramp, similar to horde GY route. I've seen alliance mention it a couple times, but never seen it, and its never specifically pointed out, thus I have no real clue if it exists or not.


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