Witches get the shaft.

[Shockeye]

Wiccan prayer dispute headed to US Supreme Court

RICHMOND, Va. (AP) -- The US Supreme Court is being asked to overturn a Virginia county's refusal to let a Wiccan priestess offer prayers before its board meetings.

Cynthia Simpson was turned down in 2002 when she asked the Chesterfield Board of Supervisors to add her name to the list of people who open the board's meetings with a religious invocation.

The Fourth US Circuit Court of Appeals sided with county officials, who said they had the right to limit the prayers to Judeo-Christian or at least monotheistic beliefs. The Wiccan faith includes appeals to gods of the earth and nature.

Simpson is being represented by the American Civil Liberties Union, which maintains that it's unconstitutional for public officials to prefer some religions over others.

[schild]

Go go team ACLU.

Far as I'm concerned Wiccan isn't a real religion though. It's something taken out of Narnia or Redwall. The Wiccans were the only goth types that I could never get in a conversation with back in my darker days for fear that I might have to jam a shoe of the earth up their ass.

[tazelbain]

Lol, Christians.  They talk a good game about freedom of religion but they don't really mean it. (yes, a broad generalization, go fuck yourself)

Let's get this puppy in Pol quick.

[Paelos]

It was obviously a thing she was doing to make a stab at the Christians. It has nothing to do with her faith. That being said, Christians shouldn't be doing religious invocations at a city board meeting. Nobody should. I'd like to keep the Pharisees out of government thanks.

[Evangolis]

Next you'll be chasing the televangelists out of the temple, and we all know how that one turns out.

[Velorath]

Simpson is being represented by the American Civil Liberties Union, which maintains that it's unconstitutional for public officials to prefer some religions over others.

Yep, better just to say none of them are allowed in the workplace.  Let the Wiccans in and next it will be people saying prayers to Odin, drawning pentagrams on the floor, or sacrificing animals in the board room.  Yeah, people are going to perfer some religions over others, and with good reason.  The best and easiest thing to do is tell everyone to keep that stuff to their homes or places of worship.

[Paelos]

Next you'll be chasing the televangelists out of the temple, and we all know how that one turns out.

They have large security forces. And they own the "temples". 

Jesus was a patient man, but even he flew off the handle at that kind of crap.

[Evangolis]

All jesting aside, and recognizing that this is Useless News, not Politics, but in fact, the majority of my friends and relatives that are religious are in fact some flavor of Wiccan.  Just because they don't go around asking random strangers if they've met the Goddess doesn't make them less serious about it.  Some are a couple of generations or more into the faith now.

Myself, I'm a Taoist, have been since I had what I can only call a religious experience on the morning of my eighteenth birthday, almost 30 years ago.  The first line of the Tao Te Ching can be translated as 'The true Way cannot be named.'  I suppose it is easy to dismiss this sort of view of divine ineffability as solipsism, but for me, the essence of what I found as revealed knowledge is that the universe is more beautiful and complex than I can comprehend, and to claim that mortals such as us can really fully comprehend the divine borders on hubris.  Taoism for me has done much to make my life more harmonious and rational.  For me, it has been a great gift.  I don't regard my faith as invalidating any other faith.  I'm perfectly willing to accept that other faiths, including Christians, have a piece of the elephant, but I don't believe that any mortal can in fact have all of it. 

In the place where I grew up, I heard a joke about the fundamentalist Apostolic Christian's who are part of the Christian community there, told to me by an Apostolic.  It went "A man died and went to heaven and was being shown about by an angel.  They saw the area where the Catholics were dwelling, and the Lutherans, the Methodists, the Jews, the Muslims, and so forth.  Then they came to an area, and the angel tells the man "We have to be very quiet here."  "Why is that?", the man asks.  "These are the Apostolics." the angel gently replies. "They think they're the only ones here."

So if a public body wishes to make religious expression, why should non-Christian religious expression be banned?  I guess my feeling about this aspect of Christianity as it is most commonly practiced in the America of my experience is mirrored in Neils Bohr's supposed response to Einstein's famous objection to the Uncertainty Principle, "God does not play dice with the universe!"  Bohr's alleged response was "Albert, quit telling God what to do."

[Signe]

I think you're all a bunch of freaks.

[Ironwood]

All hail the Flying Spaghetti Monster.  Bless his Noodly Appendage.

[Llava]

http://whywiccanssuck.com/

Still stupid as hell for the board to say that they have the right to limit the prayer to Judeo-Christian religions.  Uh....... huh?  So all those Eastern religions aren't "real" religions in your book?

"Or at least monotheistic religions."

I got a few million Indians who'd like to have a talk about that.  (The forehead dot kind, not the feather headband kind.)  Pretty damn shitty of them.  Now if they just said "Wicca isn't a real religion." that I could buy.  I have trouble believing in many religions founded within the last century or so.

Of course this begs the question- if it were a Scientologist, would they have been shot down as well?  God I hope so.

[schild]

If it were a scientologist I would have preferred they were just shot.

[Sky]

Although I'm somewhat Taoist in philosophy, I feel no written word of man conveys anything about god, it's something each must learn on their own, but Taoism is a nice philosophy. There is no belief of man to which I am beholden, the trees and rocks tell me a much clearer story with less self-interest. That's not some voodoo, either ;) Nor do rocks actually talk to me, lest someone think I've cracked. I meant nature in general.

Anyway. Lately I've taken to the classical gods, Norse, Greek and Roman. Well, swearing by them. Damn you, Ron Burgundy.

[HaemishM]

If you're going to allow one at a government sponsored meeting, you damn well cannot claim in anyway that you can disallow another religion's prayers at the meeting. If the Pledge of Allegiance can have "under God" in it, you can't say which God. I applaud the ACLU for taking up this case; this is one place where they are actually fighting the good fight.

As for God, I'll just paraphrase from Babylon 5:

Shine a light on the wall, and God is the light. But God is also the wall, the flashlight and the eye beholding all of these things.

[Fargull]

All hail the Flying Spaghetti Monster.  Bless his Noodly Appendage.

So.. at the church of the noodle, does everyone sit down to a plate of pasta, drink some wine, and dress like pirates?  I like it, bring on the wenches.

[Yegolev]

Of course this begs the question- if it were a Scientologist, would they have been shot down as well?  God I hope so.

Nah, the Scientologists silently gain a foothold before doing that sort of thing, and when they wanted to do the service there would not be much opposition.  Note Hollywood.  We all knew that several "key" (chuckle) stars were Scientologists, but we are only starting to see any sort of exertion or genuine expression.  Now that they have some representation, it's only a matter of time before are all brainwashed.  Then again, I don't read People, so I could be wrong.  That Tom Cruise sure flipped out, though.

[Llava]

I feel no written word of man conveys anything about god

Bingo, you win.

I agree.

[Paelos]

While no man can accurately describe God or predict his responses, noticing his participation in our existence is a necessity for better understanding even a small part of him. That is the purpose of the Bible. To know God through his words and actions. Even then, though, knowing the Bible word for word, I would still say we'd barely touched the surface.

[Yegolev]

Even then, though, knowing the Bible word for word, I would still say we'd barely touched the surface.

That much is true.

Also, this thread has a very misleading title.

[Sky]

That is the purpose of the Bible. To know God through his words and actions.

I call Bullshit on the Bible. A nice collection of Fables (Old Testament) and Cult of Personality (New Testament). Both collections of stories written by fairly primitive men overcome by superstition.

To know God through his /actions/ is what I'm talking about. Science is the real religion, to study the works of God without the filter of politically-influenced man.

Science crosses cultural borders in a way religion simply can't. God laid all his works out before us to understand, that's why we have intelligence. We have compassion to temper raw intelligence.

It's really a beautiful world if you drop the dogma and look at it unfiltered by man's interference. That's why I call myself 'agnostic', there's a force greater than ourselves, a creator, but I don't think any earthly religion has a single friggin' clue as to it's nature. And it won't help your team win the big game.

[stray]

Einstein would disagree. He called bullshit on the idea that it's an either/or situation. That study of science or religion shouldn't be two seperate things.

But hey, he's just Einstein, and probably fits within the realm of cult of personality for most people too.

[Sky]

I was actually alluding to Einstein's usage of the word 'God'. I'm reading some great Dawkins right now, so it's been on my mind lately.

The point I was making was more about the fundamental difference between making facts fit your worldview vs making your worldview fit the facts. There are huge swaths of grey sludge betwixt the two. The secondary point being that I feel the best way to study God is not reading some collection of fables, but studying the actual workings of God directly, using scientific method to work out any biases as much as possible. Again, grey areas abound, like scientists who bias results to continue funding, and religions that adapt to new discoveries, even if I feel the latter casts a serious doubt upon the bible as an infallible word of the almighty.

[Paelos]

I agree, to understand science better is to seek the face of God. Unfortunately, not all Christians since the dawn of the religion have held this world view, and as such, scientists have suffered.

[HaemishM]

I wouldn't go so far as to call the Bible a collection of fables. It's more like the oral history of a people (the Jews) filled with homespun homilies, common sense parables and a good deal of historical fact, tempered through the eyes of a superstitious, pre-industrial civilization. Calling it a mythology would probably be more accurate than fable.

[Signe]

Too much Christian stuff happening around here again.  I'm off to peruse the laundry.

[HaemishM]

God blesses your spin cycle.

[Evangolis]

I consider myself a scientist, and there are many questions science is well suited to answering.  There are also things science does not address well.  For many of these questions, I turn to my faith.

And if God is involved with my laundry, perhaps that explains the missing socks.

[Roac]

Sigh.  You know, if I worked somewhere that had Wiccans praying before meetings... I wouldn't give a shit.  Just leave me out of it and don't go all Tom Cruise, and I'm happy.  If most of the people are Wiccan, have a Wiccan service if it suits them.  If most of them are Hindu, have a Hindu service - whatever.  For that matter, if most people at a meeting want to hear about a Girl Scout cookie sale, then go for it.

But just because one guy in a group wants something doesn't mean he gets it.  That's not governemental sponsored religion, that's just not wasting people's time. 

[HaemishM]

It's a COUNTY board meeting, which means it is a local government meeting. If they allow prayer of one religion at this government meeting, they can't discriminate and say ONLY this religion's prayers can be heard there. They have to allow others or none at all. It's a case of "Just because you want it, doesn't mean you should have it" but on the side of the Christians as well as anyone else.

[tazelbain]

But just because one guy in a group wants something doesn't mean he gets it.  That's not governemental sponsored religion, that's just not wasting people's time. 

There is more to our Republic than Majority Rule. You say you are okay this, but its easy to be okay with Majority Rule when your group will have the majority for the foreseeable future.

[AOFanboi]

That Tom Cruise sure flipped out, though.

Cruise has a way to go to catch up with Hollywood scientologist #1, John Travolta. Hes has after all managed to have at least two scientology-oriented movies made: Phenomenon and Battlefield Earth.

[Paelos]

But just because one guy in a group wants something doesn't mean he gets it.  That's not governemental sponsored religion, that's just not wasting people's time. 

There is more to our Republic than Majority Rule. You say you are okay this, but its easy to be okay with Majority Rule when your group will have the majority for the foreseeable future.

Yes the minorities have rights to complain. AND THEY DO! A ton. Move to Atlanta and watch this in action. I stopped watching local news because of that, and because it became the daily black on black violence show.

[Llava]

But just because one guy in a group wants something doesn't mean he gets it.  That's not governemental sponsored religion, that's just not wasting people's time. 

Except they didn't even have the forethought to lie and say that's why they denied the guy.  If they said "Well, he's the only one who wants to do it out of a council of so many members so we felt it was in the interest of time saving to just ask him to do his prayer privately" then I'd have no problem.

But they didn't say that.

They said "We ought to have the right to limit the prayer to Judeo/Christian religions, or AT LEAST monotheistic religions."

What the fuck is that?  They flat out said that they don't want his prayers because they consider their religions more valid than his, not because he's the only Wiccan.  That IS governmental sponsored religion.

[Paelos]

Last time I checked, most major religions are more valid for special consideration than Wiccan. Had she been a Jew, Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu, or Mormon, I think she would have more of a leg to stand on. Sorry, but when you're an incredibly modern religion, you are going to get the fish-eye from a lot of people.

Especially when you start calling yourselves witches. I mean come on.

EDIT: And by modern, I mean the resurrectionist movment of Wicca, not the ideas.

[Samwise]

The fact remains, though, that specifying Judeo-Christian or monotheistic was way out of line.  There are lots of "major" religions that don't fall in that category, and lots of "modern" religions that do.  Heck, Branch Davidian counts as Judeo-Christian, but I'm pretty sure they wouldn't want anyone up there praying to David Koresh.

(edit) Really, though, whether it's a "major" religion is fairly subjective in lots of cases and shouldn't really be a factor.  The government shouldn't be catering to any particular religion, regardless of how popular it is.  If people want to pray before a meeting, have a minute of silent reflection or whatever and let everyone pray (or sit quietly and feel superior, as the case may be) on their own.