Minions of Mirth goes into free alpha amongst cries of, "WTF?"

[Pococurante]

/shrug

I agree to some degree - NWN as originally sold was a Not Fun rule set and the game mechanics were tedious.  I hated the graphical perspective and was astonished Bioware so thoroughly miscalculated the average DM's abhorrence of all things technology.  But I also was very impressed with some of the player modules, especially the later ones.

What I liked and still like is the business model and the idea that sophisticated tools would make for better player content.  I still think that is the trend and fully believe there is a market somewhere between NWN and Torque.  Player content often enough is crap simply because the tools are too restrictive/laborious for most players to really want to dedicate themselves.  But if nothing else has been breathtaking these past few years it'd certainly be the improvement in tools.  And for example look at GG's tactic to make money selling addon components, everything from primitives/textures to full-blown scenarios.

Kind of silly to slam player content when one bailed before all the good modules started appearing.  NWN was the first product of its sort and the tools required learning curve - should not surprise anyone it took time for things to ramp up.

[Sky]

It wasn't the learning curve. I was making cool stuff.

It was the sheer amount of limitation placed on worldbuilding. See also: The Movies (just a hunch). Nothing like that will ever work, because you're limited to the set pieces they give you, unless you work in 3dmax or maya or whatever. That's fine for dicking around, but not for making good original content.

[HaemishM]

It didn't help that the game in NWN really wasn't all that great. DND does not make good real-time Diablo play. It also didn't help that they said over and over that you couldn't make the game 1st person, until some came up with a hack that made the game first-person. Unfortunately, first-person (and other assorted better camera angles than the default) showed off how bad some of the models really were.

[Viin]

Don't forget all the other good HL mods. (DoD, Natural Selection, etc)

Sure, player content can suck but having the ability to make content is better than being stuck with the content the devs gave you.

[Evangolis]

It wasn't the learning curve. I was making cool stuff.

It was the sheer amount of limitation placed on worldbuilding. See also: The Movies (just a hunch). Nothing like that will ever work, because you're limited to the set pieces they give you, unless you work in 3dmax or maya or whatever. That's fine for dicking around, but not for making good original content.

In some ways, the problem for me was the reverse.  I needed more and more detailed set pieces.  For example, a functioning Inn, no special tricks, just a building with entrances, and, inside, NPCs who would rent rooms and sell you food.  Everytime I started to work on a module, I'd wind up having to create all these side areas, so that my module wasn't a hallway.  You really needed to be able to plop down a stock village, etc, so that you could set the specific plot points as desired.  Then you could go back and mod in story as it grew, the way you would with a PnP setting.

Of course, what they did have didn't fit together very well.  The tilesets really weren't standardized between themselves.

I guess I'd say that the problem was that NWN expected the players to provide the content, instead of allowing them to.

[JRitter]

Unfortunately, we're already selling enough to keep working on the game improving and expanding it. 

Please don't tell the people who are having fun playing it in single and multiplayer, that it totally sucks and is doomed.  Ok?

 :-D

-Josh Ritter
Producer, (Sole) Programmer, Game Designer, Web/Forum/Online Server Admin, Marketing, Wrangler
Prairie Games

[schild]

Josh, your engine and concepts don't suck and aren't doomed.

Player made content sucks for the most part and it's the players that are doomed. But hell, most of us will buy anything once. At least that's my experience.

[Nija]

pity reply

[HaemishM]

Unfortunately, we're already selling enough to keep working on the game improving and expanding it. 

Good for you. We don't have to like it for it to be a success, or for someone to like it.

[Pococurante]

Please don't tell the people who are having fun playing it in single and multiplayer, that it totally sucks and is doomed.  Ok?

Josh do you have time for a rebuttal?

[Stephen Zepp]

Just caught this quote in Josh Ritter's last .plan (blog) on our web site:

The RPG World Server code is located in the./common/mud/world folder of the installation. This code is the full RPG logic of the world server. The game can be changed DRAMATICALLY by editing these files.

@Mark: This is no where near the full source code. The source code we've made available is the (complete) RPG logic of the World Server. This combined with the full RPG Database source code and compiler allows people to heavily modify the game.

-Josh Ritter
Prairie Games

So basically, it appears that the worries people were commenting about (not being able to really change gameplay isn't correct anymore.

FYI, the dedicated server itself is completely free, but requires the beta client ($25) to play.

A link to his full (latest) .plan (requires a GarageGames account, free).

I'm certain that he will have this information on his web page as well in the near future.

[Pococurante]

Good point Stephen - I should look at his usual haunts first.  I like what they're doing and want them to succeed.

[JRitter]

Josh do you have time for a rebuttal?

Not really, I'm very busy working on the game.

I've invested everything I have into making this game.  Of course, I don't think it sucks ass.  I also think Mount & Blade, Oblivion, NWN, etc are cool.  Though, I am a huge fan of RPG titles.

As far as mods sucking, I don't think they all do.  Here is some mod art we will be incorporating into the official build of MoM.  The artist happens to be a professional game environment artist working on an XBox 360 title.  It was very generous of him to make this and other artwork.  He seems to really like MoM: 



Our website and image need a complete overhaul.  We'll get to this in 2006!

-Josh Ritter
Prairie Games

[Evangolis]

When you do that overhaul, I hope you'll consider addressing the initial and general concerns about your name and slogan.  I suppose changing your name is a bad plan at this point, but I think you need to get your core mechanics across better.  It isn't fair, but the fact is that I have far more games than I can reasonably play, and I'm not going to look far beyond the surface unless what I see makes me interested from the first title.

[JRitter]

If anyone is interested, I shot and edited a quick promo video this afternoon.

Here's a link:

http://www.prairiegames.com/MoM_Promo1.wmv

Vibes,
-Josh Ritter
Prairie Games

[EvilTodd]

As far as mods sucking, I don't think they all do.  Here is some mod art we will be incorporating into the official build of MoM.  The artist happens to be a professional game environment artist working on an XBox 360 title.  It was very generous of him to make this and other artwork.  He seems to really like MoM: 

His character art looks like a cross between a fencer and a Knight of the Holy Grail.

You should ditch that clown and hire the person who did the totems.  Those look nice.

[koboshi]

Ok so I’ve stated my problems on the high end but upon further thought there is also a low end argument...

What is the value of my effort to add content in a grand sense? Should I complete the task, what good is it? I cannot be expected to make an entire game, which is a job that might optimistically take a few years. I can not afford that loss of time, for fun. And what of any project that stands short of that? Obviously it is worth less. Less than the original game, less than the handful of great mods. In the grand scheme a lesser game is not a game which will garner much, if any, attention in light of far grander contemporaries. Why mod?

To put it in more simplistic terms, I 'm poor but I like to make stuff. I am frustrated because when I try to make a little teepee out of twigs I do so in the shadow of the pyramids.  I can't make that so why make anything?

I find myself being depressed by the idea even as I write about it, but there is also an image which gives me hope, coral. Each little creature does but a tiny amount and yet it's effort allows for the grandest formations on earth. So, to take a step back from the poetic for moment and a step over to the logical, let me offer this proposal. If each and every player's product must be compared and a scant few chosen as the winners, you will have made a game where all of your hard work has been to depress most of your players and reward a small handful. If instead you line the players’ accomplishments end to end with each gaining from the value of each other you will have a game in which each player feels they are personally responsible for the greatness of the hole.

Just so I don’t get ignored for lack of a rational application for this theory here’s my one line psudocode: each player creates in-game, small objects, areas, rules of operation (code), which is then either traded around in the game for use in other player creations or placed like dungeons with gate fees so that players can, when not creating, or instead of creating, play in them. 

I don’t know if this theory is being applied to this game but it would seem that few if any are in a better position to attempt it, if for no better reason than someone else could do it with your game.

[Samwise]

Just so I don’t get ignored for lack of a rational application for this theory here’s my one line psudocode: each player creates in-game, small objects, areas, rules of operation (code), which is then either traded around in the game for use in other player creations or placed like dungeons with gate fees so that players can, when not creating, or instead of creating, play in them. 

I think you just described Second Life to a T.

[koboshi]

Yea, with one caveat, I want Second Life without the requisite bankroll of real cash.

[Samwise]

So "free" is a prerequisite for the perfect game?   

Second Life's pricing scheme is actually pretty reasonable (as far as I can tell), despite the stories you hear about people paying thousands of dollars for stuff.  Those are the same people that pay thousands of dollars for castles in UO or Swords of Whoopass in EQ or whatever.  Not representative of the game as a whole.

[AOFanboi]

I think you just described Second Life to a T.

I was going to say MUSH/TinyMush/TinyMuck, but that would be dating me back to the text-interface days.

Ah, playing a MUD on a DEC VT-102 terminal...

[Stephen Zepp]

I'm a little late with this, but FYI Minions of Mirth is now shipping.

[Samwise]

PRAIRIE GAMES, INC RELEASES GROUNDBREAKING ROLE-PLAYING GAME:
MINIONS OF MIRTH

"Minions of Mirth gives the player an incredible amount of freedom in their role-playing experience! It can be played in single player, multiplayer, and even allows friends to run their own custom persistent worlds! We're very pleased to be releasing this amazing product. We've worked very hard with our community to make sure Minions of Mirth totally rocks!", says Josh Ritter co-owner and programmer of the title.

Minions of Mirth Features:
Auto-patcher that delivers immediate content and feature upgrades
Full single player support
Player vs Environment and Player vs Player multiplayer
No monthly service fees for multiplayer
Form your own party of up to 6 characters. Join other players in online alliances with up to 36 characters
16 playable classes, 12 playable races, Multiclass characters in three careers up to level 100
3 playable realms: Fellowship of Light, Minions of Darkness, and the Monster Realm
14 huge and diverse zones to explore
Unlock monster templates to create your own stable of monsters
Epic Battle System
A tremendous amount of unique NPC, creatures, items, and quests
2 hours of original music
Free dedicated world server with source code is available. Host your own persistent world with your own original content.

I keep getting the feeling that I'm missing something big about MoM, because from my previous visits to the site and this press release, it just sounds like it's the bastard child of EQ and NWN. Which part of it is "groundbreaking"?

[schild]

Zepp didn't write that.

I got an email from an indy dev house the other day pimping a groundbreaking clone of.....breakout. Goddamn. Stop painting targets on yourselves.

[Samwise]

Zepp didn't write that.

I know, but I'm still curious, which is why I asked the question.

[Stephen Zepp]

Zepp didn't write that.

I know, but I'm still curious, which is why I asked the question.

Quite honestly, the term "groundbreaking" is probably marketingspeak, but also quite honestly, the ability to pick and choose how to play the same game, single player or multiplayer, combined with completely moddable world servers is pretty new. I wouldn't call it bleeding edge or anything myself, and all negative-ness aside a combination of EQ and NWN isn't a bad breakdown of the abilities either...