Xbow question.

[Mesozoic]

Here's a detail question that would be better asked on the official boards, if I thought for a moment that my post wouldn't immediately be buried on page 35 behind 800 posts about ninja looting, class balance, and customer service, all of which are labeled "Blue pls OMFG read!!"

My baby Rogue opted for a Crossbow to pull with.  Throwing knives are unsexy and bows and guns un-roguish.  I bought the Xbow and, not seeing any bolts for sale, bought 200 arrows.  I equipped the Xbow and put the arrows in the ammo slot. Dragged the XBow icon to my action bar, got in range of a mob, and....no go, won't fire. 

Are there Xbow bolts that are different than arrows?  (if so, why doesn't the XBow vendor sell them?)  Do I have to have a quiver to use the XBow? (if so, why did it let me put the arrows in the ammo slot if it wouldn't work?)

[Trippy]

Here's a detail question that would be better asked on the official boards, if I thought for a moment that my post wouldn't immediately be buried on page 35 behind 800 posts about ninja looting, class balance, and customer service, all of which are labeled "Blue pls OMFG read!!"

My baby Rogue opted for a Crossbow to pull with.  Throwing knives are unsexy and bows and guns un-roguish.  I bought the Xbow and, not seeing any bolts for sale, bought 200 arrows.  I equipped the Xbow and put the arrows in the ammo slot. Dragged the XBow icon to my action bar, got in range of a mob, and....no go, won't fire.

Are there Xbow bolts that are different than arrows?  (if so, why doesn't the XBow vendor sell them?)  Do I have to have a quiver to use the XBow? (if so, why did it let me put the arrows in the ammo slot if it wouldn't work?)

Did you use the Shoot Crossbow skill (check your skillbook) or the actual crossbow item? You need to use the former. I never used a crossbow when I played but I preferred the knives for pulling as a Rogue -- the wind up animation is a lot shorter than using a bow or gun so the mob you are trying to pull can't wander as far before being tagged.

The quiver gives you a speed bonus when shooting/firing but you don't need it if you are just pulling.

[Mesozoic]

Ah, see, I knew the answer was "Stop being a dumbass." 

Thanks.

[Trippy]

Ah, see, I knew the answer was "Stop being a dumbass." 

Thanks.

It's not that obvious. One of the most common newbie questions is "How do I fire my wand?" and yours is along the same line.

[kaid]

Yup that is a very normal error due most people do not see the icon in their list of abilities for ranged attack especially people for whom ranged shooting is not their primary method of attacking.


kaid

[Mesozoic]

It begs the question of why the ranged weapon icon can be dragged to the action bar if clicking it has no effect. 

[Calantus]

'Cause if it isn't on your doll already, clicking that button would equip it. :P

[HaemishM]

So are crossbows demonstrably better than throwing knives? Damage or speed-wise? I'm sure they aren't faster, but is it worth it to train them up or just stick to throwing?

[Mesozoic]

Man, playing a non-caster for once is really sharpening my wits.

[MrHat]

So are crossbows demonstrably better than throwing knives? Damage or speed-wise? I'm sure they aren't faster, but is it worth it to train them up or just stick to throwing?

Later on you find bows/xbows/guns with +stats on them.  You won't find throwing knives like that.

[AOFanboi]

Later on you find bows/xbows/guns with +stats on them.  You won't find throwing knives like that.

That's because throwing knives are ammo, not weapons. So yes, weapons + ammo = better than just ammo.

[Paelos]

Yeah, some things in the game are very non-intuitive. For example, fishing. Most of the time when you want to use an item, you put it in your toolbar and click it. Not so with your fishing rod. There is a casting action button to do this for you. So, often you see noobie fishermen equiping and unequiping their robs with great abandon wondering what the hell is going on.

[Merusk]

So are crossbows demonstrably better than throwing knives? Damage or speed-wise? I'm sure they aren't faster, but is it worth it to train them up or just stick to throwing?

Later on you find bows/xbows/guns with +stats on them.  You won't find throwing knives like that.

Plus, they just look cooler and there's no animation bugs with them.  Though I haven't seen the "stuck in throwing animation" for a long time, so it might have been quashed finally. 

Throwing weapons are faster, but really as a rogue you're not concerned about the 3 throws you can get in before a mob hits you so much as you are the combo points you need.

[HaemishM]

Are there crossbow things that give you combo points?

[Mesozoic]

Things?  If you mean "items," then no.  Theres a very short list of Xbows int he game, and none of them award combo points to my knowledge. 

But hey, lets go for 0/3.

[HaemishM]

I mean attacks, powers, abilities, etc.

[Rasix]

Are there crossbow things that give you combo points?

If you mean skills, abilities, or moves then "no".  Combo point generation is all you and your melee weapons, buddy.

As a rogue, I don't think I got a single missile skill over 100. I rarely ever had to pull and it's rarely worth giving up 2-3 combo points.  And refreshingly enough, WoW's rogue is about the easiest and least frustrating positional melee character I've ever played.

[Mesozoic]

I'm pulling a lot because I'm in the middle of Westfall, where every quest asks you to find 2 - 3 new flavors of Defias and wipe them out.  So far its just easier and safer to pull.

I find that trying to sneak up on mobs is useless.  I can take down mobs 1-2 levels higher than me pretty easily, but forget going for the backstab.  Even with Master of Deception at 3/5 (I'm 12th level atm), they see right through me. 

[kaid]

The biggest reason to grab a gun/bow or xbow is mainly due to ammunition. When traveling it can be a HUGE pita to find a merchant that sells throwing weapons while arrows and bullets are purchasable in almost every town and village.

The damage on xbows tends to be a good deal higher than throwing weapons as well. As you level you can find bows/guns/xbows that have good stats boosts on them for a slot that normally would not have any bonus stats which makes them very handy even if never used.


kaid

[Rasix]

Cheap shot is joy.  You don't get that until level 26 though.   I don't think I really used openers that much until then.  Before that I likely just shot what I had once and then SS'd myself silly. Ambush is good (at 18), but you need a dagger and sometimes that just isn't feasible.  Garotte isn't bad, but it's positional.  I wouldn't bother with sneaking into position just for a backstab and that somewhat makes MOD slightly useless until you have CS.

At least when you get Cheap Shot, you'll have distract and Rank 2 of stealth.  Plus Cheap Shot is 2 CPs or most of the time it can be 3 with 5 in Initiative.  I think I had MOD when I got CS so that helped too.   You kinda put away the missile weapons once you start relying on your openers.

[Dren]

I was just going to post that.  You use ranged up until around lvl 30.  After that, I just use openers over and over.  I do like Garrote.  Using that with cleave and you're poisons means the foe is dieing constantly while you chew him up.  Then I keep hitting them in the kidneys to stop them from hitting me.  Thus they stand there dieing to my cuts, poisons, and stabs while stunned.  I can easily kill +3 with that at lvl 35 now.

Level fast?  Full bar of rest xp in 60 minutes easily.  The only reason I don't level my Rogue constantly is that I"m constantly out of rest xp.

[Merusk]

I'm pulling a lot because I'm in the middle of Westfall, where every quest asks you to find 2 - 3 new flavors of Defias and wipe them out.  So far its just easier and safer to pull.

I find that trying to sneak up on mobs is useless.  I can take down mobs 1-2 levels higher than me pretty easily, but forget going for the backstab.  Even with Master of Deception at 3/5 (I'm 12th level atm), they see right through me. 

My rogue's only 23, but I used the gouge-backstab combo a lot.  I didn't enjoy SS spamming them to death nearly as much even though it's more efficient.  Screw efficency, I want FUN.  The tricky part is waiting until you have enough energy to gouge, run behind and backstab.

[HaemishM]

I find I use openers about 50% of the time up to level 18. One of the fun openers to use is come up on a group of 2 or 3 humanoids. Stealth. Walk up to the front of the highest level one and Sap him. Bam, he's dazed, instant crowd control, take care of the other 1 or 2. I also use gouge a lot to stop singles, run behind them, and backstab.

In what situations am I NOT wanting to use daggers? I see lots of folks talk about changing weapons mid battle between swords, maces and daggers? Why would I spend the money to get swords?

[Mesozoic]

SS apparently is more effecitve with slower weapons, because its damage is based on the damage range of he weapon, not its DPS. 

I myself prefer knives, but I'm going for a thief concept. 

[Dren]

Same.  I use daggers exclusively.  He's a rogue damn it.  Plus, the added damage per hit from poisons isn't a percentage of damage from your weapon so the faster the better.  It affects your DPS more.

I'm more about the specials than SS too, so daggers win again.  I pump up my talents that affect poisons and I have a fast and furious attack of greasy knives.  Oh how my foes' health bar drops...

Plus more attempts to poison with daggers is another win for them.  I'm pretty much guaranteed I get a lot of instant poison damage in plus either some dot damage (they stack up to 5 times) or some slowing poison (so they can't run away, depends on what you are fighting.)

I just stay away from powers that are based on a percentage of weapon damage.  Daggers are very effective that way.

[Merusk]

Rogues are great because there's just so damn many ways to play them.  That's the real reason I haven't played mine more, I can't decide which route I really want to go.

Combat rogues are the ones using maces/ swords more often while Poison/ assassination rogues focus on daggers from my understanding of things.   I'm with the dagger crowd, myself, and have been leaning towards an assassination/ backstab build but have seen my friend the combat rogue tear some shit up.

[Morfiend]

I find I use openers about 50% of the time up to level 18. One of the fun openers to use is come up on a group of 2 or 3 humanoids. Stealth. Walk up to the front of the highest level one and Sap him. Bam, he's dazed, instant crowd control, take care of the other 1 or 2. I also use gouge a lot to stop singles, run behind them, and backstab.

In what situations am I NOT wanting to use daggers? I see lots of folks talk about changing weapons mid battle between swords, maces and daggers? Why would I spend the money to get swords?

Basically it has to do with your playstyle, and how you want to generate the majority of your damage. A dagger rogue does most of his damage with special attacks, such as Backstab and ambush, and hardly ever uses sinsiter strike. A sword rogue relies much more on damage from normal attacks, and sinister strike, and eviserate, and stuns to keep the person from hitting you while you do damage.

A Sword rogue plays more like a light tank hybrid. Heavy damage and a little better defence with a more in your face type of fighting, and lots of stuns. A dagger rogue plays more like your traditional rogue. Jumping out behind some one for a large amount of damage, then using stuns to get behind the person and backstab.

I personally play a Sword rogue, and I really like it.

[Threash]

The reason you don't want to use daggers in pve is because unless you gouge the mob you will never have its back to you.  Gouge + backstab = 105 energy, which might as well be 120 since you regen it in 20 energy chunks.  For 120 energy you can Sinister strike three times which will do alot more damage than one backstab if you have a decent sword.  If you are not 60 you shouldn't be using daggers, put most of your points into the combat tree and pick up the slowest sword/mace you can find.

[Polysorbate80]

 The only reason I don't level my Rogue constantly is that I"m constantly out of rest xp.

Do people actually wait for rest xp to accumulate?  My gnome warlock (my 2-year old loves the gnomes, she thinks they're "babies") accumulates something like 12% rest xp sitting overnight in an inn; it's such a small amount and gets burned up so quickly that I don't even bother finding an inn or city to log out in unless it's convenient.

[Rasix]

In what situations am I NOT wanting to use daggers? I see lots of folks talk about changing weapons mid battle between swords, maces and daggers? Why would I spend the money to get swords?

Ohh noes, someone mentioned WoW theorycraft and rogues.  I am compelled to post.. I think... 

People use swords for a variety of reasons:

1) Sinister strike is incredibly energy efficient and the damage done by this attack is based of your damage range.  Also your additional damage from your attack power is scaled based on the speed of your weapon.  Note: this applies to backstab and ambush also.

Sinister strike is also non positional, so it's easy to use solo which is how you'll spend a majority of your time leveling up.

Even if you have the BEST DAGGER EVAR, it will never be as slow and hard hitting as a nice slow sword.  There will always be times when you can only sinister strike (you know how hard it is to find the backside on a amorphous blob to backstab?).  Everyone, even if they've gone hardcore backstab/ambush sinister strikes a lot more than they expect to.  I've fought alliance rogues that liked to sinister strike spam with their daggers out, it's fucking pathetic. It's a tickle.  Where as someone sinister striking you in the face with a Krol blade is a one way ticket to ouch-town.

2) Combat spec rogues can also get a sword spec.  They can also get a mace spec.  I'm not sure how well either of these specs work as I've never used them.

3) Backstab rogues aren't really viable until they PVP or when they're grouping 95% of the time.  As Threash mentioned, you're dicking around gouge/backstabbing. It's not very effective (except in PVP, where it's quite nice). 

Note: Yes, some people like being effective. I don't roleplay with my fucking weapons, I stab with them.  Stabbing is not roleplaying.  You can be Bobby the effeminite swashbuckler with a mace, it's OK.

4) Weapon macros are easy and available.  It's easy to switch for any situation. 

5) Combat rogues aren't likely to backstab/ambush much.  Thus, you're going to need to fill in more SS's to get to your eviscerate or kidney shot or if you're a goofy ass bleed rogue: rupture.

6) Some mobs are immune to poison.  Fast poison spam aint always going to work. Some mobs also have no blood and thus do not bleed.

Of course, there's just a lot of ways you can play a rogue.  One of the most effective rogues in my guild on Shadowsong used low speed daggers with dual instant poisons. He had the improved instant poison skill.  He was quite often the most damaging rogue on all raids (ironically enough I was the only person that came close and I wasn't even a raid spec (21/8/22) and my gear blew and 99% of the time I got to play my shaman!)(additonal gripe:  plus he never cheapshotted and liked to ambush the critters to inflate his damage output (yes we were highly contentious)). He also like to brag that he'd get like a 120 killing blows in battlegrounds with something ridiculous like 2 deaths (of course, he didn't really stick his neck out there).  So, I guess I'm saying he wasn't as good as he liked to advertise, but he had a completely stupid (in my view) weapon setup (Julie's dagger mainhand, wtf) and spec (he had some ODD points here and there) but he still managed to excel where people in idealized setups strugged to compare.  Plus his entire setup was extremely low aggro even if a pure Seal-Fate build in the right gear might outdamage him, he still went toe to toe and took virtually zero damage.

Viable rogue specs, IMO, open up a lot if you're grouped constantly or you're pvping.  Otherwise, you're just looking to take down a mob before it takes you down.  This means you want instantly accessable and non-positional damage because I've yet to see a mob I can successfully circle strafe. Which means: yep, you're SSing a ton.  Buy a sword (or mace). 

This is only really an issue if you're someone that tries to maximize your damage as a damage class.  Otherwise, go nuts, it's your dime.

[Daydreamer]

It begs the question of why the ranged weapon icon can be dragged to the action bar if clicking it has no effect. 

Its so that Blizzard can add bows with click effects if they choose.  I don't believe any do ATM, but almost all other weapon types have a few examples so its likely only a matter of time.

[Calantus]

I'd also like to add that dual backstabbing rogues is a fun little party. You just waltz up to the mob, open with ambush, the other guy then opens with ambush, and then you stand on other ends of the mob spamming backstab. What you get is a mob constantly spinning around and taking huge damage everytime he does. It's even better in PVP, if both the ambushes crit someone just died.

Also, the biggest thing against backstab rogues is that you don't get many good backstab daggers along the way to 60. Sadly Toxic Revenger is the best (non world-drop) backstab dagger from level 27 to something stupidly high like level 50.

[Dren]

I dropped a +4 named last night and didn't even get an opening move on him (it certainly was close.)  That's with daggers mind you.  I'm not too worried about my damage output.  Although, I'll probably start collecting swords and maces just to stay flexible and try things out.  I just need to get some 14 slot bags or something.  I'm always out of room with stocking 3-4 different poisons, blinding powder, leathers, healing potions, and then all the insane number of quest items I seem to always have.

A side note: If I come up against a known hard opponent, I like to open with Sap.  This gives me a combo point and then allows me to regain energy.  I plan to use this in PvP sometime so that I can walk to the front of the person, wave, then go back behind for a nice backstab.  If I get that to work just once, I'll be happy. :-D

[Dren]

 The only reason I don't level my Rogue constantly is that I"m constantly out of rest xp.

Do people actually wait for rest xp to accumulate?  My gnome warlock (my 2-year old loves the gnomes, she thinks they're "babies") accumulates something like 12% rest xp sitting overnight in an inn; it's such a small amount and gets burned up so quickly that I don't even bother finding an inn or city to log out in unless it's convenient.

I do not work on any of my characters unless they have rest exp.  I'm leveling 3 at the moment and I typically have 1 hour of playtime per night during the week so that works for me.  Using this technique, I can level 3 characters just as fast as one character being used past rest experience all the time.

[Polysorbate80]

I guess that sort of makes sense if you have to have so many characters on such a short schedule, although you're leveling each one at around 2/3 of the rate of one non-rest character--200% xp for one hour, or 315%xp for (100% x 3 hours, plus ~15% rest accumulated)