Avoid it's about Lineage 2

[Malathor]

I'm up to level 42 in L2. A few positives and negatives from my viewpoint.

Pluses:

Fear. L2 has brought back fear into MMORPGs in a way that I have not experienced since MUD days. Losing hurts; and failure is punished, often quite harshly. This creates a sense of tension, fear and even genuine hate that has been totally absent from MMORPGs for years. A huge plus in my book.

Politics. My guild and I are in an alliance opposed what is generally regarded as the strongest guild on the server. Skirmishing, battles, hiding your reds and seeking out theirs are daily occurrences. Because of the nature of L2, the stakes are always very high. The politics matter, a lot. When a group former allies defected to the enemy, it created the kind of anger, disgust and sense of betrayal you will rarely see in other MMORPGs.

The PvP system. Criticize it all you want, it's working beautifully in my experience. Random noob ganking is almost non-existent, high end battles for cause fairly common. This is just how it should be. Because the stakes are high, it's invariably exciting.

Mixed:

Combat/Skills. At 40+ every class has a vast array of different skills and abilities at one's disposal. The game strikes a decent compromise between class and solo/group flexibility and EQ-style class roles. None of it, however, is visible at low level where combat is absurdly oversimplified, skills and abilities few, and benefits to grouping slim to none.

Class Balance. Judgement withheld till Chronicle. Archers are clearly overpowered atm. Supposedly this is being fixed in the upcoming Chronicle patch.

Content. Judgement withheld till Chronicle. There is enough there for launch I suppose, but I can see it running out soon. Chronicle promises to rectify this. We will see.

Negatives:

Grinding. With the current system, XP and cash are best achieved through non-challenging PvE. This promotes tedium. Not good at all, and no reason it should be this way either.

Time investment. Player skill, game knowledge, cooperative behaivor and simply not dying can dramatically increase leveling speed. But even if you are leveling fast, it still takes a large amount of time, no question about it. If this weren't enough, there is simply not enough game at low levels for casual players.

Buffs. Apparently in a desire to avoid buff bots, buff duration is only 10 min. 40+ healers typically have 4-8 buffs to drop on each party member. The results, as you might expect, are ugly. Even with buff duration to be doubled in Chronicle, buffing is sure to remain pure hell for the buffing classes. The result has been a dramatic lack of high level healers willing to put up with the endless buffing.

[HaemishM]

Did anybody actually like PRX in SB beta, or was everyone pretty much agreed they were complete cockmonkeys?

[Mr_PeaCH]

Nice post, Malathor.  Please, if you would, continue to appraise us of the development of your character and your guild and L2 life in general in the future.  I'm counting on A_P for some of this too but it will be nice to have different POVs.

Alas, I could see for myself all too clearly the things you labled in the Pluses and I really, really *really* wanted to like this game.  But it is the negatives and the outright timesink (moreso than the low level tedium) that were my undoing.

[WayAbvPar]

Did anybody actually like PRX in SB beta, or was everyone pretty much agreed they were complete cockmonkeys?

IIRC, there were definitely reasons we started pronouncing it 'Pricks'.

[slog]

Alas, I could see for myself all too clearly the things you labled in the Pluses and I really, really *really* wanted to like this game.  But it is the negatives and the outright timesink (moreso than the low level tedium) that were my undoing.

You can't have one without  the other.

[Arthur_Parker]

Did anybody actually like PRX in SB beta, or was everyone pretty much agreed they were complete cockmonkeys?

IIRC, there were definitely reasons we started pronouncing it 'Pricks'.

Knew a few of them in AC1, shared Dryreach with them for a while and then had one as a Patron for a short while (before they quit AC1 obviously), didn't know many of them but I had no troubles, hardcore anti at that time.  Almost joined them in DAoC but they went Merlin and I finally settled on Galahad.

[Xilren's Twin]

Fear. L2 has brought back fear into MMORPGs...Losing hurts; and failure is punished, often quite harshly. This creates a sense of tension, fear and even genuine hate that has been totally absent from MMORPGs for years. A huge plus in my book.

Politics....When a group former allies defected to the enemy, it created the kind of anger, disgust and sense of betrayal you will rarely see in other MMORPGs.

So L2 has added fear, anger, betray, disgust, and hate of other people back to mmorgps.  No wonder I didn't like it; I was actually looking for fun.  You do realize that you come off sounding like a sado-masochist describing a real good dominatrix there?  :-p

Just out of curiosity, about how much time would you say you spend in one of those negative emotional states compared to a fun state such as the thrill of victory?  Yes, that is a serious question.  I'm wondering how fragile that balance is between fun ("harsh punishment for losing makes winning sweeter") vs frustration ("ok, i've lost too much so now it's just continuing pain").  People talk about CoH losing people in a few month due to burning out the content; I could just as easily see people leaving L2 due to burning out of the dark side of humanity emotions.  I enjoy tension filled games like SS2 as well, but not every day for months.

Just keep a journal and you could write a book called "Fear and Loathing in L2, my story".  

Xilren

[cevik]

Just keep a journal and you could write a book called "Fear and Loathing in L2, my story".  

Wait, there's copious amounts of drug use in L2?  Fuck I'm in.. screw you CoH fanbois..

[Signe]

hehe... I did a stint in UO with The Professionals.  A short stint... I didn't much care for them or the direction the game was heading at that point.  I do like a few people in PRX, though... just not enough to give that organisation a thumb's up.  The weenie butts far out number the decent people.

Anyway... I'm with cevik.  Give me enough reefer and I'll have fun playing just about anything.  The Sims, anyone?

[Arthur_Parker]

Just keep a journal and you could write a book called "Fear and Loathing in L2, my story".  

Xilren

AC1 Version

The screenshots work if you grab the jpg shortcut and remove the small from the end of the filename.

E.g 1st screenshot

http://sw.virtues.net/Schatt_history/history-Dateien/Young_Schattenkind_small.jpeg
becomes

http://sw.virtues.net/Schatt_history/history-Dateien/Young_Schattenkind.jpeg

Fairly interesting/disturbing reading, depending on your point of view.

[cevik]

Anyway... I'm with cevik.  Give me enough reefer and I'll have fun playing just about anything.  The Sims, anyone?

Hmm, 3 hits of acid and The Sims Online might be a fun game..

[Sky]

3 hits of acid and staring at the keyboard is a fun game.

[Monika T'Sarn]

The difference is really the motivation.  If you stopped gaining any exp in lineage, would you still play?

If I were given lvl 75 and 10 billion adena now, I might go explore all areas once, do some sieges, pvp some - then quit the game. Of course.
I've been to that point in DAOC and SWG  - all leveled out, earning more money or farming more equipment isnt that fun either. All you can do now is RvR, and thats turns out into the same old stuff after a while, and gets boring - unless you tread the realm levels as your new goal to leveling up.

Maybe you are right, and the games we play are just are not fun enough, just do not provide enough content, to be long-term entertaining without the leveling curve. I don't really care.
I want a game that is played for months or years, a game with its own history and community - not some short-time entertainment.

[Monika T'Sarn]

I was in COS for a build or 2 in SB and I rememberd you.  I moved to DHL towards the latter half of beta.

Heh, no problem - I wasn't so sure sometimes which guild I was in during Beta myself. Was the best time of shadowbane for me, the fights with CoS against everybody during beta.

[Soukyan]

I want a game that is played for months or years, a game with its own history and community - not some short-time entertainment.

There are some fantastic text MUDs that do that far better than any graphical MMOG to date and for free. ;)

But seriously, this is where the niche comes into play or perhaps where the rift between MMOGs needs to grow. Companies need to keep making games for people like Monika, A_P and Slog who want to spend years getting to the very top. And they need to make games for people like myself who don't want an MMOG as a hobby, but as a brief, fun escape every now and then. NCSoft did a good job of releasing both at the same time. And I will admit that while I would really love to be able to play Lineage 2, it is totally out of the realm of possibility for me because of time commitment (what takes Monika 3 months would translate to 3 years of play at my time investment rate). It's a shame, too, BUT there are other MMOGs out there that cater to my playstyle.

Alas, the days of being able to enjoy playing every MMOG that comes out are long gone.

[Alluvian]

If I were given lvl 75 and 10 billion adena now, I might go explore all areas once, do some sieges, pvp some - then quit the game. Of course.
I've been to that point in DAOC and SWG - all leveled out, earning more money or farming more equipment isnt that fun either. All you can do now is RvR, and thats turns out into the same old stuff after a while, and gets boring - unless you tread the realm levels as your new goal to leveling up.

Now that surprised me.  So you, for one, are not leveling to get to the sieging or the pvp that you think will be fun, you are just leveling to level?  I don't get that mentality at all.  It is like you are just looking for a way to waste time.  Which would normally lead me to believe you really need a girlfriend, but AP at least is engaged so that does not fit for him at least.  Then again AP might not share this opinion.

My real question though was not if you hit the cap, but if the exp stopped flowing RIGHT NOW, at the level you currently are, would you keep playing?  And for L2 we should assume that in this fantasy land you would not longer delevel upon death.  Is the game for the game sake alone interesting?  Is PvP interesting, or would the fact that others will always be higher level than you and win without a challenge drive you nuts?


I would still be playing CoH for probably about a month at least at the state I am right now (only level 12 at the moment).

[Malathor]

And they need to make games for people like myself who don't want an MMOG as a hobby, but as a brief, fun escape every now and then. NCSoft did a good job of releasing both at the same time. And I will admit that while I would really love to be able to play Lineage 2, it is totally out of the realm of possibility for me because of time commitment (what takes Monika 3 months would translate to 3 years of play at my time investment rate). It's a shame, too, BUT there are other MMOGs out there that cater to my playstyle.

Apparently, some Koreans feel the same.

http://forums.lineagecenter.com/showthread.php?t=1125

[Alluvian]

No, that isn't the same thing.  That would still take him YEARS to get to anything interesting in the game.  It would just mean the catasses level slightly slower.

What Soukyen would want is a 5x experience server so he can actually see the content withing a standard human being's lifetime.

[Arthur_Parker]

I'd switch to a 5x xp server in a heartbeat.

[Soukyan]

I'd switch to a 5x xp server in a heartbeat.

Me, too. Alluvian is right. I have other leisure time activities, but I do still love MMOGs and virtual worlds and really enjoy seeing the creative talent that can bring these things to us.

And Malathor. Thanks for that link! Just to reference the content of it:

To allow players to choose a server to match their life-style, a "relax" server will be opened. A "relax" server is for comfortable enjoyment and playtime is limited per week.

[ Relax server addition details ]

1. Scheduled date: Expected to open May 12th (Wednesday) at 4PM.

2. Server name: Server #28 Iana

3. Special difference

- In one week, playtime is limited to a total of 30 hours.
- Time spent sitting down or using the personal store is not counted.
- Every Friday at midnight, the new week begins.

Now THAT is a really cool thing. It'd be even better if they had lowered that to 20 hours a week, but hey, beggars can't be choosers. I have one question because NCSoft may have earned themselves another Lineage 2 subscriber... Is this a server that I'll be able to access as a North American player?

[HaemishM]

Now that surprised me.  So you, for one, are not leveling to get to the sieging or the pvp that you think will be fun, you are just leveling to level?  I don't get that mentality at all.  It is like you are just looking for a way to waste time.  Which would normally lead me to believe you really need a girlfriend, but AP at least is engaged so that does not fit for him at least.  Then again AP might not share this opinion.

Levels of Separation Part 1

Levels of Separation Part 2

If you remember those articles, the friend I was talking about actually likes to level. Without the levels, he doesn't see a point to the game. He is also happily married for many years now, but no kids. Some people really do just like the treadmill.

[Monika T'Sarn]

Now that surprised me.  So you, for one, are not leveling to get to the sieging or the pvp that you think will be fun, you are just leveling to level?  I don't get that mentality at all.  It is like you are just looking for a way to waste time.  Which would normally lead me to believe you really need a girlfriend, but AP at least is engaged so that does not fit for him at least.  Then again AP might not share this opinion.

If this game had no sieging or pvp, I would not be playing it - I skipped final fantasy and horizons because of that. And leveling without an end goal is not fun either - thats why I quit SWG. Jedi leveling was slow, maybe slower then lineage - and at the end I couldn't even do anything fun because permadath after 3 deaths means its all for nothing.

I would prefer a game where there's something new to go explore each day, some new exciting war to fight each day against players or monsters, a story unfolding constantly that you could participate in. I very much like the idea of 'leveling through questing' that WoW has, I even like their rest system. But does WoW have enough content for more then 3 weeks ?

There's simply no company providing my dream game right now, so I'll do with lineage 2. Inbetween the pvp and the sieges, the boss mob raids and quests, there's allways leveling to do, so I expect the game won't get boring fast.

My real question though was not if you hit the cap, but if the exp stopped flowing RIGHT NOW, at the level you currently are, would you keep playing?  And for L2 we should assume that in this fantasy land you would not longer delevel upon death.  Is the game for the game sake alone interesting?  Is PvP interesting, or would the fact that others will always be higher level than you and win without a challenge drive you nuts?

Uhm, if xp stopped right now, obviously the game would be broken, and I would stop playing soon. PvP so far was interesting, and I don't mind higher level people being stronger then me right now - if I can catch up. Thats my point really - the whole game only makes sense with the leveling included. The game is, like most other mmorpg's, build around the leveling.

I actually would like switching to a server thats 5 times faster - 5 times experience, 5 times the loot, 5 times the death penalty. But that problably would require bringing out the new chronicles 5 times as fast, and thats just not possible.

[Monika T'Sarn]

To allow players to choose a server to match their life-style, a "relax" server will be opened. A "relax" server is for comfortable enjoyment and playtime is limited per week.

[ Relax server addition details ]

1. Scheduled date: Expected to open May 12th (Wednesday) at 4PM.

2. Server name: Server #28 Iana

3. Special difference

- In one week, playtime is limited to a total of 30 hours.
- Time spent sitting down or using the personal store is not counted.
- Every Friday at midnight, the new week begins.

Now THAT is a really cool thing. It'd be even better if they had lowered that to 20 hours a week, but hey, beggars can't be choosers. I have one question because NCSoft may have earned themselves another Lineage 2 subscriber... Is this a server that I'll be able to access as a North American player?

It's a korean only thing right now I think. I do not like the idea that much, the rest system of WoW seems more fun. But its close to what I would consider the optimal system for shadowbane: A time-limited server, up only 4 hours per day during prime time. You'll be allways on when your city is in trouble.

[Monika T'Sarn]

I want a game that is played for months or years, a game with its own history and community - not some short-time entertainment.

There are some fantastic text MUDs that do that far better than any graphical MMOG to date and for free. ;)

That's where I come from - I played a Mud called Genesis for 5 years. A small game, never more then 100 players at once online, but with some interesting features that somehow never made it into MMORPG's. You only knew people's names if  they got introduced to you - otherwise they'd be a 'red-eyed green-skinned goblin' to you. You could not remember everybody, the number of people depended on your int. The biggest thing though is that there is not a single number in the game, except for money. All combat and stat information is described verbally - very fun.

[Soukyan]

I want a game that is played for months or years, a game with its own history and community - not some short-time entertainment.

There are some fantastic text MUDs that do that far better than any graphical MMOG to date and for free. ;)

That's where I come from - I played a Mud called Genesis for 5 years. A small game, never more then 100 players at once online, but with some interesting features that somehow never made it into MMORPG's. You only knew people's names if  they got introduced to you - otherwise they'd be a 'red-eyed green-skinned goblin' to you. You could not remember everybody, the number of people depended on your int. The biggest thing though is that there is not a single number in the game, except for money. All combat and stat information is described verbally - very fun.

Nice. I'll have to take a peek at that sometime if it's still around. I've encountered a few others with the introduction system, but not with the full removal of numbers.

And thanks for the reply on the server question. I checked the NA site and watched the server status and realized there weren't 27 servers for NA so server #28 couldn't possibly be available to us. Darnit. But maybe it'll make its way to NA. I like that idea of 4 hours per day, but one man's prime time is another man's bed time. I guess you would then have to go with geographical location of server to determine prime time. I'm on East Coast and I hit the sack early... like 10 pm because I get up early in the morning so prime time for me is 6-10. I still like that idea though.

I would prefer a game where there's something new to go explore each day, some new exciting war to fight each day against players or monsters, a story unfolding constantly that you could participate in.

You and the rest of us. That is our utopian dream.

I actually would like switching to a server thats 5 times faster - 5 times experience, 5 times the loot, 5 times the death penalty. But that problably would require bringing out the new chronicles 5 times as fast, and thats just not possible.

Perhaps we're not so different in our playstyles as I first thought, but then again, it comes down to time played. Would you like to play on a 5x server that was time limited with your 4 hour per day prime time idea or a capped 30 hour week anytime even?

[Monika T'Sarn]

Perhaps we're not so different in our playstyles as I first thought, but then again, it comes down to time played. Would you like to play on a 5x server that was time limited with your 4 hour per day prime time idea or a capped 30 hour week anytime even?

Nope - I play 40-50 hours or so a week, if I can - the 30 hour limit wouldn't do for me.  It's not the leveling that forces me to do it, I just like playing a lot, I used to spend similar times in SWG, DAOC or Shadowbane.
I do not really like the prime-time limitation server, that would never work for my guild. Its just the only way I can see a game with shadowbanes siege system working, and the 30-hour limit reminded me of that idea I had long ago when I quit SB.

The 5x server probably would not work for lineage 2 right now - we'd be all over level 60 now, bored with the content and without things to do until chronicle 1 comes. Couple it with a rest system like WoW suggests, and it might work.

[HaemishM]

Monika, not to get personal or anything, but how in hell do you get 40-50 hours a week of playtime? Do you work from home, work part-time or just not sleep? I mean, I work 40 hours a week (really closer to 37 or so, but counting driving times it's about that), and only get about 6-7 hours of sleep a night (which really isn't enough most days) except on weekends. Assuming 8 hours of sleep on Friday and Saturday nights, work and sleep take up about 86 hours out of the 186 hours. Let's take two hours each day for breakfast, lunch and dinner. That's 100 hours. Which leaves around 86 hours total for the rest of the week. Note, I've put nothing about the time I might spend watching a movie, spending time with my woman, visiting family, or anything else.

I don't understand how you can free up that much time for a game.

[Alluvian]

3. Special difference

- In one week, playtime is limited to a total of 30 hours.
- Time spent sitting down or using the personal store is not counted.
- Every Friday at midnight, the new week begins.
 


Now THAT is a really cool thing. It'd be even better if they had lowered that to 20 hours a week, but hey, beggars can't be choosers. I have one question because NCSoft may have earned themselves another Lineage 2 subscriber... Is this a server that I'll be able to access as a North American player?

Why would this sell you on the game?  Your problem as I understood it was that it was taking YOU too long to level.  That YOU didn't have time for it.  All this server would do is keep the others slightly closer to you in level, but they will still outlevel you if you cant play exactly 30 hours a week every week.  This server would change your game not at all, just the game of those around you.  It would still be just as slow and ponderous in terms of leveling.

[HaemishM]

In a PVP game, changing the game of those around you IS changing your game as well. If they can't outlevel you too much, the power differential is kept fairly flat.

[Alluvian]

But the game is still boring as fuck till at LEAST level 40.

[schild]

Yea, I second what alluvian said. Maybe, MAYBE, if the relax server came with a blowjob and dessert it would be worth playing. But it doesn't, it just comes with a boring, shitty, game where everyone looks the same and has the same skills for the first half of their characters life, and then an endgame that will take massive guilds to make worthwhile. Egad, it sounds more stupid the more I think about it.

EDIT: Plurality is hard.

[Soukyan]

Yea, I second what alluvian said. Maybe, MAYBE, if the relax server came with a blowjob and dessert it would be worth playing. But it doesn't, it just comes with a boring, shitty, game where everyone looks the same and has the same skills for the first half of their characters life, and then an endgame that will take massive guilds to make worthwhile. Egad, it sounds more stupid the more I think about it.

EDIT: Plurality is hard.

Quoted you, but in response to both you and Alluvian. You're right Alluvian, the limited playtime server would not do away with the level grind and the lack of a decent combat gameplay model.

As to the massive guilds comment, I believe the largest a guild can be is 40 players and that's only after a guild has been leveled. This is not massive. I've seen DAoC guilds with upwards of 300 characters. I believe that they limit guild size for a few reasons. One is to force alliances and thereby give more weak points for possible PvP conflict. The other could be to limit seige size, although I imagine seiges will consist more of Alliance vs. Alliance than Guild vs. Guild.

[schild]

That's even worse. Maybe not for Koreans, but for Americans? I'd trust another guilds combat ability about as much as I'd trust someone I didn't know with a gun. Seriously. This idea, no good can come of it.

[Rasix]

Heh, it's not like a guild size of 40 will limit the uber guilds one bit.  They'll just have multiple guilds allied together.   If anything it'll relegate smaller guilds to kissing ass in order to survive (based on SB experience).

I have no idea though how Asians deal with guild politics, I mostly just blew them up with trapped chests in UO.  But I'm assuming the servers are NA only or am I mistaken.

[Venkman]

So you, for one, are not leveling to get to the sieging or the pvp that you think will be fun, you are just leveling to level? I don't get that mentality at all

No, I think she meant she's leveling as a by-product of the game. We all leveled for the sake of leveling once or twice. We know the game is going to end or get boring eventually yet we play anyway. Living for the moment and what not. The key is though: what are you shooting for and how fast are you getting there?

The goal doesn't need to be level X. It can be PvP+ or Epic or Raid or über business owner, whatever. Those are more abstract than the singular value. Three things contribute to the mental here:

[*]Pace of experiences
[*]Amount of abilities at any given time
[*]The amount of abilities left to achieve[/list:u]
A level 1 character in any game wants to hit level 1+(something) to actually have some abilities.

L2 doesn't grant anything useful again for something like 20 to 25 hours of gameplay. That's a long fucking time to do the same damned thing over and over and over. But obviously some people don't mind that because to them the pace of experiences is fast enough (or ignorable enough with guildchat, questing or other meta-concepts).

CoH has players with fully fleshed out characters by then. Beyond it's simply more options for players to choose, from a vast pool of options and ways to customize them.

I chose these two games because they represent the absolute extremes of what a game requires of a player. L2 is all about dedicated singular focused gaming. EQ with a freakin' gun. CoH is as close to an FPS game as can be gotten and still be about dice roles. But it'll likely ultimately lack in the deep deep friendship/trust/distrust some find really compelling in uber guild driven large political games.

Slog said it many pages ago: it's not for the casual. Good. Just as long as it's not for enough casual players that those players continue flocking in vast quantities to casual games so the devs continue getting revenue to make even better casual ones :)

Super ultra hardcore MMOGs are not the bread-and-butter of the genre. They fill a need within though, which is always good.