Avoid it's about Lineage 2

[Alluvian]

But it's not a challenge.  It is just time consuming.  You are gaurunteed success if you put in the time.

Agreed, but not in the end game when characters are at the low cap.  The boredom is a challenge though.

"The boredom is a challenge though."  You just shorted out my logic circuits.  I am just going to call you a troll at this point and walk away.

[cevik]

Schild, depends really what your defination of fanboi is, I see it as someone who refuses to acknowledge "their" game has faults and always has a good reason why things were designed just so.

You called us fanbois because we disagreed with one aspect of your rant against CoH, while most (all?) of us fully admitted that there were plenty of other aspects of CoH, which you did not cover, that were faulty.  The aspect that you disliked about CoH was that it was boring to sit and wait for your powers to cycle.

Then you later define fanboi as someone who refuses to acknowledge the negative aspects of "their game".

Agreed, but not in the end game when characters are at the low cap. The boredom is a challenge though.

So do you now see why we think you are a L2 fanboi?  You make up a non-existant problem in CoH to show that it's boring, and boring cannot be tollerated in a game so those of us who disagree are fanbois.  Then you later admit that the part you like about L2 is that it's a challenge because it's boring..

Maybe you are a troll..

[Arthur_Parker]

But it's not a challenge.  It is just time consuming.  You are gaurunteed success if you put in the time.

Agreed, but not in the end game when characters are at the low cap.  The boredom is a challenge though.

"The boredom is a challenge though."  You just shorted out my logic circuits.  I am just going to call you a troll at this point and walk away.

The grind is boring, I already agreed the first 18 levels aren't needed in this very thread.  The point is the absolute worst is nearly over for me now, my dwarf gets combat skills at level 20.  How exactly am I trolling I even tried to get off the other thread as soon as I could?  This one is extitled "Avoid" for gods sake.

[schild]

The grind is boring, I already agreed the first 18 levels aren't needed in this very thread.  The point is the absolute worst is nearly over for me now, my dwarf gets combat skills at level 20.  How exactly am I trolling I even tried to get off the other thread as soon as I could?  This one is extitled "Avoid" for gods sake.

You used avoid as a 'hook' to get people in here. Now that you acknowledge it, I think the real problem is you're a closet masochist and you don't know it. But, enjoy Lineage 2. If you like it that's all that matters. You're still a putz for liking it though.

[Arthur_Parker]

You make up a non-existant problem in CoH to show that it's boring, and boring cannot be tollerated in a game so those of us who disagree are fanbois.  Then you later admit that the part you like about L2 is that it's a challenge because it's boring..

Maybe you are a troll..

For someone who points out that I do not read posts you have some nerve posting that, Gith brought up the cycling issue, I mearly said I had experienced it.  On that thread as on the previous coh thread I have taken part in, I expressed in detail that my major issue is that it is a purely PVE game.

You chose to ignore that fact, argue a point I was not making to a very great extent, insult me at every turn and now seek to dismiss me with the classic "troll".

So be it.

[Arthur_Parker]

You're still a putz for liking it though.

Naw Naw my game is better than yours.

Fucking kids.

[schild]

I didn't say my game was better. I said your game sucked. That is a fact.

[Arthur_Parker]

I didn't say my game was better. I said your game sucked. That is a fact.

If anyone's trolling it's you, considering I created this thread to get off the COH thread and the first post you make on this specifically refers back to COH.

[schild]

What can I say? You had me at 'avoid.'

[Arthur_Parker]

Look it up.

[schild]

i·ro·ny    ( P )  Pronunciation Key  (r-n, r-)
n. pl. i·ro·nies

The use of words to express something different from and often opposite to their literal meaning.
An expression or utterance marked by a deliberate contrast between apparent and intended meaning.
A literary style employing such contrasts for humorous or rhetorical effect. See Synonyms at wit1.

Incongruity between what might be expected and what actually occurs: “Hyde noted the irony of Ireland's copying the nation she most hated” (Richard Kain).
An occurrence, result, or circumstance notable for such incongruity. See Usage Note at ironic.
Dramatic irony.
Socratic irony.

[Arthur_Parker]

Try the A's.

[cevik]

For someone who points out that I do not read posts you have some nerve posting that, Gith brought up the cycling issue, I mearly said I had experienced it.  On that thread as on the previous coh thread I have taken part in, I expressed in detail that my major issue is that it is a purely PVE game.

And I never disagreed with the PvE issue, I only disagreed with your absurd notion that power cycling is an issue.  Here, read the posts:

http://forums.f13.net/viewtopic.php?p=7253#7253 - You say power cycling is bad.
http://forums.f13.net/viewtopic.php?p=7256#7256 - I mention that power cycling isn't an issue.  My first post in the thread.
http://forums.f13.net/viewtopic.php?p=7294#7294 - You say something along the lines of "yes it is, fanboi!!!1!"
http://forums.f13.net/viewtopic.php?p=7330#7330 - several posts later you mention that you only like PvP, your first mention of it.
http://forums.f13.net/viewtopic.php?p=7337#7337 - Rasix points out the absurdity of liking Lineage II, with only 3 skills for 20 levels when you hate CoH because of it's power cycling.
http://forums.f13.net/viewtopic.php?p=7404#7404 - Sky points out that calling everyone who disagrees with you a fanboi is a personal attack.
http://forums.f13.net/viewtopic.php?p=7415#7415 - You try to call sky at his own game because he said you lacked knowledge about the game.  When Sky said you lacked knowledge, he wasn't attacking you, he was pointing out the same thing I had in several posts above, that power cycling isn't an issue.
http://forums.f13.net/viewtopic.php?p=7419#7419 - I defend Sky.
http://forums.f13.net/viewtopic.php?p=7427#7427 - We get sidetracked at this point and talk about how PvP games should be designed.
http://forums.f13.net/viewtopic.php?p=7461#7461 - You point out that you are confused and that you don't understand what part of your original post I disagreed with.
http://forums.f13.net/viewtopic.php?p=7464#7464 - I point out yet again that power cycling is a non-issue in CoH.

I didn't link all of your original posts, I linked the ones that started this whole conversation, it wasn't until the third post that you mentioned PvP vs. PvE; however, in the first post you mentioned power cycling as an issue.  Everyone in the original CoH thread was discussing power cycling with you, I'm sorry that you were confused, but go back and read the thread, it's clear that is what we were discussing.

[Arthur_Parker]

Before I played it

http://www.f13.net/forums/viewtopic.php?p=4932&highlight=#4932

also refer to the

lineage 2 review by Haemish who I managed to hold a differing opinion to without getting all bent out of shape

http://www.f13.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=162

Unless you count Morphiend, though god knows why you would want to.

[Venkman]

The long and short of it is that you were willing to put up with a grueling front end to get to the "good stuff" you feel has promise.

We've all been there. Few of us haven't ground our little hearts out in some game thinking we'd be rewarded. But L2 provides nothing fun before that either. The very first thing DAoC did was create some things to do along the way to RvR, and that compelled EQ to become a much better game than it was. Neither has it perfect, but the fact that they did this so long ok, and thus have affected so many games since, makes me assert what I have.

L2 is EQ four years ago. People quit this entire genre because of the grind, and L2 doesn't change their mind.

[AOFanboi]

The long and short of it is that you were willing to put up with a grueling front end to get to the "good stuff" you feel has promise.

Sounds a bit like walking up to someone on the street, and asking them: "Excuse me, could you hit me repeatedly in the shoulder while I long for the day when you eventually stop and the pain goes away?"

A normal person would mutter "madman!" and try and get away from you.

A MMOG company would instead put on a knucklebuster and say "gonna cost ya $14.95".

Other than that, L2 beta lacked content and variety in playstyles while CoH has great variety and content. Both suffer from lag, though.

[schild]

CoH, even at peak hours is near devoid of lag. Hell, even L2 had very little lag during the beta. The real difference was content. By the time big guild wars happen in Lineage 2, they'll be happening in CoH. Why drink Miller Light when you can have Guinness?

[Morfiend]

Wow, I feel a strange sense of Deja Vu with this thread. Except this time, its not me arguing with AP about this same basic issue.

[Jain Zar]

I played Lineage 2 Beta for 2 hours.   I spent close to 7 hours playing City of Heroes tonight, after having been in the final 3 day open beta.

I think that says it all, least for me.  Anime Elf Boobies doesn't beat sheer fun, action, and adventure.

[Koyasha]

As much as I would like to agree, in that Lineage II has completely open PvP, which I think is an excellent idea...you completely lost me with
"The boredom is a challenge though."

There are so many things I liked about L2, that I really, really wanted to like it.  I got pretty excited about it a while ago, so much that I downloaded the Taiwan beta, then the Japanese beta..  And I'll put up with an amount of grinding much greater than most.  But after learning about the absolutely stupendous amounts of SP that need to be earned in order to get your own powers...and then learning that the guild leader must earn millions of SP in order to level up the guild - and no guild member could aid in this, except perhaps by PL'ing the guild leader, who will undoubtedly NEED the PL'ing because they've got to neglect their own combat skills in order to level up the guild...  It was just waay too much for me.  Maybe I'll check back in a few months and hope things are better.

Oh, yeah, and I didn't like the stupid way the Dark Elves run, either.

[Soukyan]

The long and short of it is that you were willing to put up with a grueling front end to get to the "good stuff" you feel has promise.

We've all been there. Few of us haven't ground our little hearts out in some game thinking we'd be rewarded. But L2 provides nothing fun before that either. The very first thing DAoC did was create some things to do along the way to RvR, and that compelled EQ to become a much better game than it was. Neither has it perfect, but the fact that they did this so long ok, and thus have affected so many games since, makes me assert what I have.

L2 is EQ four years ago. People quit this entire genre because of the grind, and L2 doesn't change their mind.

Right on. Most of us dislike the grind with little to no purpose other than to "get to the good stuff" (which you'll note for Lineage 2 was postponed until June - seiges, flying dragons, etc.), but there are some people who enjoy an MMOG with that model and that's fine. As long as you find the game enjoyable, it is worth your time. I would have loved to play a dwarf at high levels in L2, as well, AP. And god knows I tried. In Korean beta, I tried leveling one and burned out at level 14. In NA beta, I tried an elf caster for a bit and then went back to try a dwarf once more. This time, I burned out at level 7 and that was about 10 hours of play. The reason I burned out? Because I realized that at a play rate of about 10 hours a week, I would not see high levels for over a year, and I felt that it just wasn't worth the money or the time. You're moving along at a fair clip and I hope you can continue to do so because going from 20 to 40 will take you more than twice as long and when you add in a fiance (and I could be wrong here and she may not want any attention from you, but... ) the use of time investment to block content becomes a major annoyance. The only reason I say that to you is that in my experience (when Meg and I moved in together) that is when the ridiculous time commitment really became an issue. But I would definitely like to hear how the game shapes up in the later stages if you stick with it. I'd like to hear how dragon flight works and how the seiges shape up. I'm particularly interested in the seige system.

[Soukyan]

As much as I would like to agree, in that Lineage II has completely open PvP, which I think is an excellent idea...you completely lost me with
"The boredom is a challenge though."

There are so many things I liked about L2, that I really, really wanted to like it.  I got pretty excited about it a while ago, so much that I downloaded the Taiwan beta, then the Japanese beta..  And I'll put up with an amount of grinding much greater than most.  But after learning about the absolutely stupendous amounts of SP that need to be earned in order to get your own powers...and then learning that the guild leader must earn millions of SP in order to level up the guild - and no guild member could aid in this, except perhaps by PL'ing the guild leader, who will undoubtedly NEED the PL'ing because they've got to neglect their own combat skills in order to level up the guild...  It was just waay too much for me.  Maybe I'll check back in a few months and hope things are better.

Oh, yeah, and I didn't like the stupid way the Dark Elves run, either.

I actually considered buying this upon release and then last week I talked to a friend who had stuck out the NA beta. He told me how he had been level 25 and went out to do some PvP for a couple hours the night before. He lost 5 levels. Ugh. It will take him longer than 2 hours to regain those levels for sure. Losing that amount of time in PvP kept me from buying the release box. It kept him from buying it, too.

[slog]

The target audience for Lineage2 is not anyone who posts on this website.  I don't know why that's so hard to comprehend.  It's for hardcore MMORPGers in Hardcore guilds.  

Its not for the casual.

[schild]

about 50% of Bat country has been playing 8 hours+ days. What is a hardcore guild like? The thought scares me.

[Shavnir]

Insomniacs with caffeine IVs?

[Venkman]

Oh, yeah, and I didn't like the stupid way the Dark Elves run, either.

My God, this still isn't fixed? Only the styling of the DE female blunts the abject idiocy of that run animation.

It's for hardcore MMORPGers in Hardcore guilds.

How many games have we heard that excuse for? So often "hardcore" is confused with "players who really don't actually game as much as they simply consume". Totally different.

L2's basic problem is that there is no character variety and the growth through the very limited character abilities is sadistic. XP loss from PvP death, in a market that so proves how unprofitable full PvP is?!

Yes, it works fine in Korea. Good! But they launched the same shit state-side. If they achieve even Shadowbane's numbers, it'd be a minor miracle. SB is so many orders of magnitude more fun, and once the pull of the new shiney wears off towards the end of May (imho, if that needs stating ;) ), people will be leaving. Maybe they won't go back to SB, but L2 won't enjoy the same success that L1 didn't.

It's not a game for the hardcore. You are right in that it's also not a game designed for us, if "us" includes current Western MMOGers. That make "us" weak? Shit. I'd gladly accept that title so I can go off and spend my time and money on something that's fun.

[slog]

Oh, yeah, and I didn't like the stupid way the Dark Elves run, either.

My God, this still isn't fixed? Only the styling of the DE female blunts the abject idiocy of that run animation.

It's for hardcore MMORPGers in Hardcore guilds.

How many games have we heard that excuse for? So often "hardcore" is confused with "players who really don't actually game as much as they simply consume". Totally different.

L2's basic problem is that there is no character variety and the growth through the very limited character abilities is sadistic. XP loss from PvP death, in a market that so proves how unprofitable full PvP is?!

Yes, it works fine in Korea. Good! But they launched the same shit state-side. If they achieve even Shadowbane's numbers, it'd be a minor miracle. SB is so many orders of magnitude more fun, and once the pull of the new shiney wears off towards the end of May (imho, if that needs stating ;) ), people will be leaving. Maybe they won't go back to SB, but L2 won't enjoy the same success that L1 didn't.

It's not a game for the hardcore. You are right in that it's also not a game designed for us, if "us" includes current Western MMOGers. That make "us" weak? Shit. I'd gladly accept that title so I can go off and spend my time and money on something that's fun.

I started to write some stuff here but I'll just tell you guys what I told the #hate crew:  You won't like Lineage, don't bother playing it, it's a game targeted at a very specific demographic.

[Signe]

I don't think Lin2 sucks.  Well, at least I think it doesn't HAVE to suck.  I played the beta for some time and my highest level char was a 15 level dwarf.  It took me forever.  The game has a lot of interesting aspects, especially the guild war bits.  If you can ever get to them.  It was hell leveling in Lin1 and it looks to be pretty much the same deal here.  Some people enjoy this sort of grind... Koreans, for example... or maybe it's true that they play because they have no choice.  There are a lot of EQ players in Korea, too... but, as far as I know, PC bangs buy blocks of accounts for both those games.  I don't think they do that for any others.

I just can't grind like that anymore.  I tried with Lin2 because I really wanted to fiddle with the large scale PvP.  If this game was easier to level and get to the heart of PvP, I would probably give it a decent try.  It doesn't have to be as fast as SB, but, right now, it's way too slow.  My down time was actually longer than my combat in most sessions.

CoH, on the other hand, is crazy mad fun and I'm enjoying it immensely.  It's quick and easy, and what ever level you are at the time, you are in the heart of the game.  Of course, CoH has a grind.  For some reason, they've been able to mask the grind with fun stuff to do.  The time seems to fly between levels.  Some of us did a mission last night that took HOURS to complete, but it was wild fun.  Everyone racked up death debt but didn't hesitate to run right back in and give it another go.  Why? It was FUN.

I think the difference between most games and CoH is how seriously you take your character.  In some games you hesitate to put yourself in a situation where you won't succeed.  It just takes too long to keep trying.  If you want to get anywhere, you HAVE to take your character seriously.  In CoH, you throw caution to the wind.  If you feel you've gimped yourself or you don't especially like your character... oh well, I'll just roll another superhero!  It's so much fun to create and develop a character, you don't feel frustrated or angry having to reroll.  It's not terribly easy to gimp yourself, either.  If you make feel you've made a wrong choice regarding powers, it's just not such a big deal.

I don't know how long CoH will stay shiny for me.  I'm looking forward to CoV and getting involved in the story arcs.  Yes, I still want to play some sort of standard fantasy MMOG with interesting skills, uber loot, the magic sword named Johnson and all the trimmings, but I can see keeping CoH around for a long time, too.  I think I can handle two games at once, although I still can't tie a cherry stem with my tongue.

[Venkman]

I started to write some stuff here but I'll just tell you guys what I told the #hate crew: You won't like Lineage, don't bother playing it, it's a game targeted at a very specific demographic.

Slog, I really do want to know what the specific demographic is. Seriously. Every year, the genre gets bigger, and has long since become wide enough where two people playing "an MMORPG" can be playing diametrically opposed games.

Technically, someone playing ATITD, L2, EQ, SWG, SB and CoH are all gaming in the same genre. These are different games entirely that all happen to put thousands of people (or in the case of CoH: a bit over a hundred) together in a virtual world. Someone picks up an RTS, RPG or FPS game and they pretty much know what they're getting. Someone tries an MMORPG and they've got Lottery-level chances of liking it.

"Very specific demographic" connotes a smallish niche title like SB. But NC Soft didn't toss in millions of dollars and Garriot's talent for that. Being a sequel to a juggernaut has a cache unto itself, but they took great pains to launch it in the U.S. too.

So what is that demographic, how numerous are they and are we looking at yet another entirely unique offshoot from MMORPGs like Planetside or Eve, a game that only appeals to one type of player that may not enjoy anything else in the same genre?

[slog]

So what is that demographic, how numerous are they and are we looking at yet another entirely unique offshoot from MMORPGs like Planetside or Eve, a game that only appeals to one type of player that may not enjoy anything else in the same genre?

Population - About 40 servers worldwide and growing.  Server population seems to be about 2000 to 3000 during primetime.

The target audience: Uberguilds.  Why?  The reason my guild is playing are:

-It's not easy to level up a character, so you know who you are fighting (accountability)  It's too hard to reroll, so when Gandorf kills you today, you will be able to hunt him down 2 weeks later.

-Crafting is guild based

-A siege system that actually works

-A Variety of Classes and couter classes it PvP

-32 Free Expansions (Called Chronicles)

[Alluvian]

These are different games entirely that all happen to put thousands of people (or in the case of CoH: a bit over a hundred) together in a virtual world.

Do you mean the instancing of atlas park and zones like that?  If so, please adjust your numbers for the other games as well.  CoH in beta had over 6500 people on one server.  There are no doubt thousands on one server.  Only a few hundred can be in a zone before it will create a copy of itself.  Is this why you downgrade the thousands playing to hundreds?

If so, please do it for EQ as well.  Because if you put 500 or so in a zone not built for it (bazaar is a special zone with it's own machine) and you crash the machine for those zones.  It has been done dozens of time for various events and/or protests.  Rangers repeatedly crashed the machine running crushbone and surrounding zones with about 400 people or so.  Is crashing better than making a split?  Please downgrade EQ to hundreds at once as well.

Same for AC1. Get too many in a city and you get portal stormed out.

SWG becomes worse than a slideshow and everyone disconnects in any largish battles of 50 or so on a side.  The armor and weapon crafting system are the bane of the GCW, too much unique data to transmit for every single damn player because every gun and piece of armor is unique.  SWG can't get more than a few hundred withing the range of your shout either.

So CoH is just as massive multiplayer as any of the other games.  The difference is when gamers push the limits of other games they perform like shit or outright break.  CoH makes copies of itself long before that happens.  I personally think it makes copies too early, but that is just personal preference.

[HaemishM]

CoH devs said that they expect servers to peak at about 4000-4500 total online population before performance takes a hit. They make this possible by doing a shitload of instancing. Just to get that out of the way.

You know, after my Lineage 2 review, I've had doubts that maybe, just maybe, there IS a fun game in L2 somewhere. After reading this thread, I know there isn't.

Oh sure, someone will bot their entire guild to 40. And maybe, at that point, possibly, the gameplay becomes fun (though with the paucity of active skills, I doubt it).

But AP... boredom is not a challenge; boredom is a BURDEN. Playing a game that you KNOW is going to bore you for unspecified amounts of time is suspect. Paying a monthly fee to be bored for up to 6 months worth of time (which is a figure I've heard bandied about for how long it takes to cap in L2) is assinine.

Sure, I may not play CoH for 6 months total. But you can damn sure bet that 99% of the time I'm playing CoH, I'm having fun right at that very moment.

The difference between hardcore gamers and myself is that I won't accept less than 90% boredom in a game, while they expect it.

[Sky]

Hey! Lookee, there! Something positive came out of this thread, a new sig!

[slog]

You know, after my Lineage 2 review, I've had doubts that maybe, just maybe, there IS a fun game in L2 somewhere. After reading this thread, I know there isn't.

Oh sure, someone will bot their entire guild to 40. And maybe, at that point, possibly, the gameplay becomes fun (though with the paucity of active skills, I doubt it).

But AP... boredom is not a challenge; boredom is a BURDEN. Playing a game that you KNOW is going to bore you for unspecified amounts of time is suspect. Paying a monthly fee to be bored for up to 6 months worth of time (which is a figure I've heard bandied about for how long it takes to cap in L2) is assinine.

Sure, I may not play CoH for 6 months total. But you can damn sure bet that 99% of the time I'm playing CoH, I'm having fun right at that very moment.

The difference between hardcore gamers and myself is that I won't accept less than 90% boredom in a game, while they expect it.

This is kinda what I was getting at.  Your point of view is just so far away from those of us that do play that comprehension of the other side's point of view isn't really possible.

[Arthur_Parker]

Haemish, the boredom comment was meant more in relation to the first 20 levels playing as a gimped dwarf, it wasn't meant to refer to the game as a whole, though I admit several people have read it that way.