EQBay Opens, Pre-Launch Testing Numbers Announced

[Dren]

Nope, my time away from work doesn't have a price tag.  I didn't say it did.  I said it is more valuable than money which is still true.  Vaule doesn't always come in the form of monetary compensation.

I agree.  You first decide you have time to waste on a leisure activity.  Then you go and waste that time.  The thing is, I want to get as much enjoyment from that time as possible.  Typically, I have no problem doing that in a MMO.  I choose to do it and so I do it.

My issue is that I can see the MMO's sliding towards this idea that in order to get any enjoyment out of, let's say one hour of playtime, you must first pony up some dough for a long sword of befuddlement first.  Oh, that is on top of your subscription by the way.

Then what does the next generation do?  Hey now it takes buying full gear from the game company to even start whacking foozles.   Hidden costs for da win!

It is like having a car salesman sell you car without tires.

Salesman:  "You can get the tires in one of two ways.  You can either run around the dealership for 3 hours clucking like a chicken with the word NEWB pasted on your back or you can just give me $300 and we'll take care of that for you."

Buyer: "Why didn't you just put the price of the tires into the price of the car?"

Salesman:  "It's more fun this way.  Isn't it??"

[Viin]

of course, this really just outlines all the issues generated by level and equipment based advancement.

if everyone was on an even board the vast majority of the time, none of this would be an issue.

[Murgos]

Your problem is with games in general, then, and not with the structure of MMOs.

Possibly, but many games can be played with friends in the same room with lots of good socially healthy interaction.  I would place this in my personl pyramid as very valuable and very important.  On occaision even worth missing a few hours 'earning' for.  How does that fit in your view?

You don't see them as an effective use of your time and through that lens see buying in-game stuff as a way of reducing or removing that ineffective portion of your off-work time.   The point of modern games is to waste time and entertain you. That's it. They're not there to teach or to help you to improve yourself or do anything constructive.  The same as TV or drinking until you can't remember your name.

I see playing the game as playing the game.  If you have to 'buy in' to feel like you're enjoying the game then I think the game is broken.  The point of modern games is not to 'waste time'  but it is to entertain, I don't think entertainment is wasting time but there is definately a hierarchy to entertainment.  A friend of mine is building a kit plane, I help him sometimes.  This is VASTLY entertaining and not in any way a waste of time even if it never gets off the ground, just the learning and skill use alone is worth the time investment.

Buying the uber-foozle-whacker 2000 from Jingo the Orc with a day or more of income just to avoid playing the game you are already paying to play (which is fundementally what you do when you buy someone elses loot) just seems retarded.

[Sky]

There is another aspect to this, I don't want to play games with people who have a profit motive.

Oops, yeah. Forgot that, that's what I was going on about with my girlfriend at lunch.

You put a profit motive on anything and people start changing, and not for the better. If it's me just having fun out in the commonlands (not that I did, heh), and some poor bastard trying to farm enough gold to feed his kids...he might act like a selfish prick (not that normal american players aren't already selfish pricks, heh). But yeah, it changes things, big time. And not for the better.

[Hanzii]

There are actually 2 fundamental problems with buying in-game cash or gear.

1) You are paying someone money to NOT PLAY THE GAME, or in essence, you are paying someone to play the game for you.

2) The real problem is that THE GAME is really about nothing more than acquiring these shiny baubles of bullshit, and the actual process of acquiring them is boring as fucking dirt. The process of acquiring them is supposed to be the game play itself, but that game play is so mindnumbingly, drool-inducingly boring, that skipping the process is preferable.

The first problem is one of perspective; it's like paying some kid to play baseball for you, then accepting the MVP trophy he wins. Yes, these games are player vs. player competitions, whether or not any player-killing goes on, but they are also competitions against the environment of the game, the game's world. By paying money to acquire these things, you are pressing the "I Win" button on all of those things. You are Barry Bonds on roids.

The second problem is the bigger problem, that of really shitty, lazy game design, and makes the first problem worse because it highlights just how sad some people are, who will pay money for the e-peen instead of just not playing a game that sucks ass.

Your're wrong. You're arguing along with the l33t kids for which the pleasure of owning a Kroll Blade (or whatever the fuck it's called) is diminished by how many others own the same blade. The gear and the levels isn't the game, theyre just means to an end.
I play WoW (that is, I play BF2, but I'm subscribed to WoW...) and I acyually enjoy the game. I like gaining levels, because they give me new skills to play with and make me powerfull enough to visit new zones. But I neveer grind to level, it just happens, when I do quests - which I also enjoy.
Foe mw powerful gear is tool, that helps me die less. I have limited playtime, I don't want to use it on downtime like corpseruns. The same goes for my horse (well, technically it's a goat). I like travelling through new zones, but hate going back and forth through the old ones. So I wanted a horse at 40 - not 42 or 45 or whenever enough gold had dropped while questing, but at 40.
Suddenly I was grinding. Sure the game is playable without a horse, but why should I go without, just because I have a job, a wife and two kids? Why is it o.k. that the unemployed guy sitting in a cellar can get these tools just because he's got no life, but I can't use the one resource I have avaliable that he doesn't - money?

I agree with Sky's last point, which is why I don't buy from IGE - but if Blizzard had a "pay 10$ and get a horsey scheme", I'd pay. Of course designing a game with no downtime or "fun" doe´wntime would be better, but Blizzard has to make the catassaes happy too, and they like downtime for some strange reason. as the game works now, you can't buy everything with real money - rare stuff is still rare - but you can buy a horse and hopefully something nice in the AH. Why is that so bad?

[tazelbain]

Why is it o.k. that the unemployed guy sitting in a cellar can get these tools just because he's got no life, but I can't use the one resource I have avaliable that he doesn't - money?

Because whatever grindy thing you are spending money to bypass is something the developers put in th game.  So when you spend money, especially with a fee going back to the developers, you are validating that descission to put that grindy thing, and encouraging more grindy things.  I mean that is capitalism is about.   Find out what your customer is willing to pay for, and find more ways to get them to pay. You are willing to pay for grindy shit; I am sure SOE is more then willing to provide you with more grindy shit to pay for. 

[Mesozoic]

Why is it o.k. that the unemployed guy sitting in a cellar can get these tools just because he's got no life, but I can't use the one resource I have avaliable that he doesn't - money?

Why should the guy who has played the shit out of the game have to stand even with you, a guy who has played far less but has a better RL job?

Yes, the games are based on time advancement.  You know that going in, or you should - and if it pisses you off, you're in the wrong genre.  The issue is whether or not that constraint ought to apply to everyone evenly, or only to those unable / unwilling to bring RL cash to bear against that constraint. 

[Margalis]

I still don't see the problem here. There might be many aspects of the game I really like, just not the farming/grinding part. Maybe my friends that I play with got more advanced than me and I need some super gear to catch up. Or maybe buying a mount makes it easier to meet and play and travel with them.

Maybe I'm in a game like FF11 where people don't like you in groups if you don't have good gear and I don't have the time to get the good gear.

I understand there are people that feel like you are "cheating" past them, but they have to keep in mind a couple things. One is that the game is not a true competitive game at all. In truly competitive games you come into the game with the same resources (other than skill) Second is that spending a lot of time just playing shouldn't priveledge them with all sorts fo special statuses. Simply playing a game a lot isn't hard, why do people expect to be rewarded for it.

Now the whole thing is kind of silly in that if you are tempted to buy a lot of stuff in-game it probably isn't a game you should be playing. But if I enjoy the game as a whole but there is one part that takes a long time that I REALLY don't want to do buying past it makes as much or more sense than grinding through it.

[Murgos]

The point of these games isn't what you think it is.  The point of these games is to make money for the developers, if you reinforce that it must be fun to play then they will make games that are fun to play because thats where the money hats are.  If you reinforce through your playing habits that the best profit is in grind or buy mechanics then you will get grind or buy mechanics taken as far as they can go.

I'd rather see option 1 be the norm.

[Xanthippe]

People sure sound paranoid that this will become the new norm.  I don't think it will, because I think there are more people playing for fun than wanting to spend cash to get to the fun.

Fun and cheap games will win out over unfun and expensive games every time.  Why do people think this is how the world will become, and all games will continue to have the faults they have had, but with this new angle to it?

If SOE has special servers or shards or whatever they call them where people can buy their rare loot for real cash, so what?  Nobody's forcing anyone to play on those servers, so the only people on them will be those for whom this isn't a problem.  It's not going to juggle together people who don't want to play that way with people who do.

I see it as vastly superior than dealing with the farming problems Blizzard has with WoW. 

There is already a market out there for people who want to buy their kit.  It's not going to impact my game playing.  I'd venture to guess there are more people who would not pay for equipment than who will.  Put them all on the same servers together.  I don't want to play with them on the servers I play on, whether they buy their stuff from IGE or from the publisher.

I think it's a step in the right direction.

But then, I am all in favor of giving people what they say they want.  People want to play fun games.  That won't change.

[Merusk]

I see it as vastly superior than dealing with the farming problems Blizzard has with WoW. 

If this were to happen in a PvP-enabled game then the farming would be 12x worse than it ever was.  As it is, you stand a chance of being locked-out of getting the item in game if a company like IGE decides they're going to monopolize the spawn. (See FFXI)   Now add in PvP so that you can not only man the spawn 24/7 but kill anyone (even via x-teaming) that tries to get at it.

It's a bad thing that people feel the need to pay for items.  It's bad design that requires them to do it, and in all it's just a shitty ideal.  You start worrying about 'keeping up' and you start to see paying as an OK thing. 

The genie's out of the bottle, it will become the norm, and really, I don't care because I imagine I'll have quit long before it does.

[Hanzii]

Why is it o.k. that the unemployed guy sitting in a cellar can get these tools just because he's got no life, but I can't use the one resource I have avaliable that he doesn't - money?

Why should the guy who has played the shit out of the game have to stand even with you, a guy who has played far less but has a better RL job?

Yes, the games are based on time advancement.  You know that going in, or you should - and if it pisses you off, you're in the wrong genre.  The issue is whether or not that constraint ought to apply to everyone evenly, or only to those unable / unwilling to bring RL cash to bear against that constraint. 

It doesn't apply evenly. You just seem to think that catering to people with a lot of time is somehow better than caterin to people with more money.

I'm not in the wrong genre, the genre needs changing and this is just one way of doing it. I don't want to grind and I don't want to pay money to shortcut some of the grind - but I see nothing wrong in doing so. And I'm sure that if what SOE does became the norm, some company would make "Same Game - now with 50% less grind (and you only pay a flat fee)", that's somewhat what WoW did right, so I'm sure others will try to take this further.

And for those unemployed guys in the catass stinking cellars, whining that some guy with an AmEx gold just bought a maxed out lv60 toon, there's always the Korean games to fall back on (twice the grind).

[Koyasha]

If there was some way that you could institute selling in-game money/items without also getting people that farm money/items for the purpose of selling them, I wouldn't be against it.  However, as can be clearly seen in many games (Lineage 2, FFXI, and EverQuest to a lesser degree, to name a few), the presence of a significant cash-for-gold/gil/adena/whatever economy drives up the number of people farming both items and cash.  In some games it makes certain items difficult-to-impossible to obtain without buying, because the monsters who drop them are completely monopolized by the farmers.  In others, it simply increases the amount of gold flowing into the economy at a rate that would simply not exist without the drive to sell the gold for real money.  It has been shown time and again, the money supply in these games inflates even in the course of normal playing; add in people farming it to a degree that no normal player would, and the inflation rate rises tremendously.

The game economy always gets thrown out of balance at this point.  The farmers, simply put, make the game much more difficult for anyone who chooses not to buy in-game currency by the simple fact that they inflate the economy at a tremendous rate, therefore making those who choose not to buy spend a significantly greater amount of time farming cash.  Over a year ago, a sword that my Paladin will need in FFXI at level 57 used to cost roughly 300,000 gil.  Today, it is not rare to see it between 700,000 and a million, if not more (I'm taking a break from FFXI, those are figures from the last time I played).  The amount of gil I must earn has more than doubled.  While one would expect to see an increase in price over time (unless superior equipment makes the old stuff less valuable) as more money enters the economy, the amount of money entering the economy is disproportionately high.

That is the harm that selling in-game currency for real life money produces.  We who choose not to buy in-game money can't just ignore those who do, because it's not just the fact that they can now obtain the Sword of Uberness before us, without 'working' for it.  It's the fact that by doing so, they've raised the price of the Sword of Uberness so we have to spend another 2 weeks farming money - and competing with all those who farm money as their bloody profession - in order to afford to buy the Sword of Uberness.

[Wasted]

This is one of those boring discussions that always end up with the same points being raised ad nauseum

 - some people think if you dont spend x amount of hours to earn a reward you diminish the effort of everyone else.
 - some people think the world will end and all gaming companies will ignore the huge market of non ebaying gamers out there who still dont mind paying for games and subscription fees. 
 - some people blame everything they dont like about the ingame market on farmers.

 - most people couildn't give two shits about how many people they will never meet are running characters with loot they will never see, or how many games are being made that they dont want to play, or even care much about the ingame market and just pay what they think is right and dont even know how much foozle y used to cost back in the second wave of beta.

I do find it amusing though that in most discussions about out of game trading most of those vehemently opposed dont mention the sweatshop conditions these evil farmers normally work in, and that is the real reason companies like IGE should be shut down.  Maybe developer assisted secure trading is a step towards that, until at least the market matures and these time-heavy achiever focused games stop being popular.

[eldaec]

of course, this really just outlines all the issues generated by level and equipment based advancement.

if everyone was on an even board the vast majority of the time, none of this would be an issue.

Exactly right.

And co-incidentally, this is also the reason none of this matters.

There will always be many characters more powerful than yours. There will always be many characters less powerful than yours.

That is the entire basis of a diku-mmog. From the perspective of any individual player nothing changes.

Diku-mmogs are not sports. Competitive advantage doesn't really matter.

- most people couildn't give two shits about how many people they will never meet are running characters with loot they will never see, or how many games are being made that they dont want to play, or even care much about the ingame market and just pay what they think is right and dont even know how much foozle y used to cost back in the second wave of beta.

What he said.

[Murgos]

People sure sound paranoid that this will become the new norm.  I don't think it will, because I think there are more people playing for fun than wanting to spend cash to get to the fun.

Look around bud.  Games with heavy grindage far outnumber games with little to none.

[Xanthippe]

People sure sound paranoid that this will become the new norm.  I don't think it will, because I think there are more people playing for fun than wanting to spend cash to get to the fun.

Look around bud.  Games with heavy grindage far outnumber games with little to none.

I don't understand your point.  For some people, the heavy grindage is the fun.

Look at muds.  There were muds where people could buy equipment for an extra fee or donation.  It did not become the norm, nor were those muds even the most popular.  That's my point.  MMOGs are still evolving and changing, and there's plenty of room for all kinds of games and all kinds of fun. 

Don't like grinding? Play a game without.

Don't like pay-to-be-uber?  Play a game without.

Etc.

[Margalis]

A discusion about something like IGE is a bit different than this EQBay. Yes, IGE creates many problems incuding inflation and monopolizing mobs. But IGE operates by farming in-game. EQBay is just you pay and get the item, nobody farmed for it, and there are dedicated EQBay servers.

The big problem with IGE is that it makes your life more difficult if you don't want to pay for items. (Among other things)

[Merusk]

A discusion about something like IGE is a bit different than this EQBay. Yes, IGE creates many problems incuding inflation and monopolizing mobs. But IGE operates by farming in-game. EQBay is just you pay and get the item, nobody farmed for it, and there are dedicated EQBay servers.

The big problem with IGE is that it makes your life more difficult if you don't want to pay for items. (Among other things)

You're misthinking what SOEbay is.  SOEbayis secure transactions of items farmed in game, with the profits for listing going to SOE.  They aren't selling the items directly, they're just brokering the sales from other players...hence SOEbay rather than SOIGE or some other cutsey acronym.  There's still people farming items in the current incarnation of things.

[Murgos]

I don't understand your point.  For some people, the heavy grindage is the fun.

Look at muds.  There were muds where people could buy equipment for an extra fee or donation.  It did not become the norm, nor were those muds even the most popular.  That's my point.  MMOGs are still evolving and changing, and there's plenty of room for all kinds of games and all kinds of fun. 

Don't like grinding? Play a game without.

Don't like pay-to-be-uber?  Play a game without.

Jesus I hate that fucking argument.  This is a rant site where people bitch about shit they don't like.  I don't like heavy grind games, neither do a lot of posters here.  Just because it's popular doesn't mean it's GOOD.

[schild]

I think, if there were an alternative to grinding, people here would play that game and laugh at all the dumb motherfuckers sitting around paying $15 a month to Blizzard to grind up to 60, join scheduled raids, and waiting for the miracle patch that comes along and fixes problems that have existed since beta. Again, assuming there was an alternative - which there isn't. That's a lot of money being put into games that are just rehashes of games that existed 15 years ago. I may be wrong, but I'd be surprised if I were. The most commonly complained about thing here is the grind. Then, maybe, IGE and endgame. But the grind is the killer ants at our MMOG picnic. It's what makes things a timesink instead of Fun.

[Xanthippe]

You're misthinking what SOEbay is.  SOEbayis secure transactions of items farmed in game, with the profits for listing going to SOE.  They aren't selling the items directly, they're just brokering the sales from other players...hence SOEbay rather than SOIGE or some other cutsey acronym.  There's still people farming items in the current incarnation of things.

Ooooooooooooooooh.  I thought SOEbay created the items and sold them directly, with no farming involved by anyone.  So, they ARE doing the same thing IGE does.

Good luck to them.  I won't play.  I don't care if other people do, however.

I still don't think it's going to create any new problems that don't already exist, or become the standard.

[Xanthippe]

Jesus I hate that fucking argument.  This is a rant site where people bitch about shit they don't like.  I don't like heavy grind games, neither do a lot of posters here.  Just because it's popular doesn't mean it's GOOD.

Oh, excuse me, didn't mean to interrupt the whining.

I thought this was a place where people exchange opinions and ideas.  I didn't realize it's a rant site - does that mean I have to be bitchy and mean to respond, or what? 

What exactly is a rant site?  Something like alt.peeves for gamers?

[schild]

Well, I think he got angrier at the fact you said "Play something else." We don't want something else. We want this something DONE RIGHT. And that's the big issue. It's probably the very reason sites outside of IGN exist (for online gamers).

[Paelos]

Yes unfortunately the argument of "play something else" when you hate the grind is impossible with MMOGs. There isn't something else, and this is why sites such as this exist. We want to play MMOGs because we recognize the potential for greatness within the ever expanding genre (or medium if you're Haemish), but we also know that none of them are moving in the direction that will actually create that ever-illusive aspect of "fun" that we salivate after. Is the game fun from beginning to developed character? The answer is no, and we often ask if in a perpetually subsisting game with no end if this is even a feasible goal.

So in short, play something else? My question would be what else could we play without abandoning hope for MMOGs?

[Wasted]

At the end of the day though what way do you really have to show companies their product is crap other than voting with your wallet?  All the rants, detailed theory's and analysis dont mean shit to companies that are making money.  You can do little else in protest but Not Play. If SOE are targeting the uber catass and the high income casual player who doesnt mind paying cash to other players for their time spent farming, then that is one company and leaves a large portion of the market to be catered to by other companies.

I am waiting as much as anyone for a non-grindy fun game to come out, and until then will continue to dally with these games and feel occasionally guilty.  I cant see that intrducing secure trading in EQ2 will stop the majority of people being able to play mmogs in the traditional way, nor hinder development of games that are targetting other types of players (like hopefully us grind haters).

Though I think the discussion has drifted from the specific case of how SOEbay will destroy online gaming to how all mmogs are already evil broken devices of torture, in which case I guess you have to rant to let other developers know that an alternative market out there exists waiting to be tapped but at the same time still...err..not play those games you hate to confuse developers that that is what people want still.

Of course SOE could make so much money from milking the rampant army of wealthy item buyers that maybe they could decide they can afford to fund some niche 'fun' games and this could turn out to be the best thing ever for mmogs.

[Murgos]

Oh, excuse me, didn't mean to interrupt the whining.

I thought this was a place where people exchange opinions and ideas.  I didn't realize it's a rant site - does that mean I have to be bitchy and mean to respond, or what? 

What exactly is a rant site?  Something like alt.peeves for gamers?

I was talking about the "Go play something else" line.  Sorry if I wasn't clear, but we had just exchanged three posts on the subject of how this was going to reinforce grind & buy style play and that there are little to no games out now or due to be released soon that don't focus on that style of play so I thought you could connect the dots.

In short I can not "go play something else" because there is nothing else and I think it's going to get worse and thats what I am ranting about on this rant site.

Rant Site [n]  A web forum where people go to openly air thier grievences [see: "teh hate"] in the vain, and probably futile, hope that some entity [see: "Red Name"]  will hear and make it all better.  Probably by the judicious application of ponies.

edit:  bbcode, hard, etc...

[Xanthippe]

I was talking about the "Go play something else" line.  Sorry if I wasn't clear, but we had just exchanged three posts on the subject of how this was going to reinforce grind & buy style play and that there are little to no games out now or due to be released soon that don't focus on that style of play so I thought you could connect the dots.

In short I can not "go play something else" because there is nothing else and I think it's going to get worse and thats what I am ranting about on this rant site.

Rant Site [n]  A web forum where people go to openly air thier grievences [see: "teh hate"] in the vain, and probably futile, hope that some entity [see: "Red Name"]  will hear and make it all better.  Probably by the judicious application of ponies.

edit:  bbcode, hard, etc...

Ok, don't go play something else.  Continue to pay whoever for a game that you don't like, and complain on a rant site.  That'll show 'em.

[Murgos]

I have a sub for CoH.  There is grind (not a ridiculous amount) and certainly no market.  I bought both WoW and EQII and dropped both before the free month wore out, as far as I'm concerned that is putting my money where my mouth is.

[Pococurante]

I have a sub for CoH.  There is grind (not a ridiculous amount) and certainly no market.

Wherever there is time there is a market.

Money is just crystalized time.

[Sky]

I do find it amusing though that in most discussions about out of game trading most of those vehemently opposed dont mention the sweatshop conditions these evil farmers normally work in, and that is the real reason companies like IGE should be shut down.

Unless they are chained to the computer, they are there of their own free will. Apparently a sweatshop beats out starving. The reason there are third world sweatshops is the elimination of first world sweatshops. If we encourage legislating out bad labor practices in third world nations, first world corporations will have a serious problem on their hands. I don't think the fat cats will allow such a thing to happen.

Paying your workers a livable wage and benefits is all nice and everything, but walmart demonstrates the vast majority of people just want cheap shit. And third world workers just want to eat. In corporate american terms, it's win/win.

[Toast]

I have a sub for CoH.  There is grind (not a ridiculous amount) and certainly no market.

Wherever there is time there is a market.

Money is just crystalized time.

Amen.

[Margalis]

You're misthinking what SOEbay is.  SOEbayis secure transactions of items farmed in game, with the profits for listing going to SOE.  They aren't selling the items directly, they're just brokering the sales from other players...hence SOEbay rather than SOIGE or some other cutsey acronym.  There's still people farming items in the current incarnation of things.

Oops. Ha ha, never mind then. Yeah, that's dumb. Encouraging farming is bad for a lot of reasons.

[Glazius]

I have a sub for CoH.  There is grind (not a ridiculous amount) and certainly no market.

Wherever there is time there is a market.

Money is just crystalized time.

Bahahaha! Oh, that's rich.

Only people who have never actually played the game are going to spring for that. You might - _might_ - need about a quarter-million to half-million influence kicker, and that's assuming you want to step up to the most powerful enhancers as soon as they're available. And that quarter-mill to half-mill is easily obtainable with a little social engineering. There are missions early in your character's life that you have to complete to access a bright shiny accolade, and a lot of people just pass them by. Since after about 30 you get influence faster than you can spend it, there's a huge amount of it at the higher end. This is how costume contests start.

--GF

[HaemishM]

You're misthinking what SOEbay is.  SOEbayis secure transactions of items farmed in game, with the profits for listing going to SOE.  They aren't selling the items directly, they're just brokering the sales from other players...hence SOEbay rather than SOIGE or some other cutsey acronym.  There's still people farming items in the current incarnation of things.

Oops. Ha ha, never mind then. Yeah, that's dumb. Encouraging farming is bad for a lot of reasons.

Unfortunately for SOE, the only reason to do anything anymore is profit, and this will probably make them lots and lots of profit.  It's practically free money.