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Author Topic: I welcome our new monkey overlords  (Read 2394 times)
El Gallo
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on: July 15, 2005, 07:20:32 AM

http://www.livescience.com/animalworld/050714_monkeys_humans.html

Quote
Moral Debate: Procedure Risks Making Monkeys More Humanlike
By Robert Roy Britt
LiveScience Senior Writer
posted: 14 July 2005
02:02 pm ET
 

The insertion of human stem cells into monkey brains runs a "real risk" of altering the animals' abilities in ways that might make them more like us, scientists said today.

A panel of 22 experts -- including primatologists, stem cell researchers, lawyers and philosophers -- debated the possible consequences of the technique for more than a year.

While the group agrees it is "unlikely that grafting human stem cells into the brains of non-human primates would alter the animals' abilities in morally relevant ways," the members "also felt strongly that the risk of doing so is real and too ethically important to ignore."

In the case of Alzheimer's research, for example, grafting human stem cells into a monkey brain would be designed to reinstate lost memory function, but "we cannot be certain that this will be the only functional result," the report concludes.

There was "considerable controversy" within the group, which disagreed on whether such experiements, some already underway, should proceed.

Uncharted territory

The conclusions, reported in the July 15 issue of the journal Science, reveal that scienists don't know how their monkeying around might alter the intelligence and emotions of animals.

The scientists admit they don't even know what really separates humans from our closest relatives, morally speaking, or how to measure any cognitive changes they might induce in an ape, monkey or other non-human primate.

"Many of us expected that, once we'd pooled our expertise, we'd be able to say why human cells would not produce significant changes in non-human brains," said the report's lead author Mark Greene, formerly of Johns Hopkins University and now a professor at the University of Delaware. "But the cell biologists and neurologists couldn't specify limits on what implanted human cells might do, and the primatologists explained that gaps in our knowledge of normal non-human primate abilities make it difficult to detect changes.

Speaking of Debates... 

The Top 10 Intelligent Designs (or Creation Myths)
 
 
 
 
"And there's no philosophical consensus on the moral significance of changes in abilities if we could detect them," Greene said.

The panel's report cites Kant, Mills and the Bible: "Humans are set apart by God as morally speical and are given stewardship over other forms of life" (Genesis I: 26-28).

Studies already underway

Human stem cells are unique cells that can transform into all the parts needed to create a living being. There are different types of stem cells. Brain stem cells in a human fetus, for example, morph into the neurons and all other cells needed to make a mind.

In 2001, researchers first inserted human brain stem cells into fetal monkeys. A controversy ensued over the morality of the procedure, and that flap eventually led to the formation of the 22-member panel.

Other experiments using the technique are underway. The work is largely pointed toward finding cures for Parkinson's disease, Lou Gehrig's disease, and other human afflictions.

The panel concluded that implanting human stem cells into monkey brains "could unintentionally shift the moral ground between humans and other primates."

Similar research has been done with other animals. In one project, scientists plan to inject a mouse with human brain cells. But bioethicists are not as concerned that a mouse could get morals.

"The possibility that human cells might create human-like abilities is much larger in nonhuman primates than in mice," said panel member Hank Greely, a law professor at Stanford University and chair of the Stanford Center for Biomedical Ethics steering committee.

Fundamental questions

"Our group struggled with many fundamental questions," said Ruth Faden, director of the Phoebe R. Berman Bioethics Institute at Johns Hopkins University. "Are there cognitive or emotional capacities that are unique to humans in ways that make us worthy of higher moral status? What sets one primate, including us, apart from another primate, cognitively speaking?"

The report states that the understanding of emotions and smarts of non-human primates is "patchy" and that "data are tricky to gather and difficult to interpret."

The panel members "agreed to disagree" about whether primates should be used for any invasive biomedical procedures, Faden said.

Researchers do not currently insert brain stem cells into human brains. Some in the group questioned whether inserting human cells into monkeys would provide relevant scientific results.

The panel recognized that the possibility of making monkeys more humanlike is an issue that goes well beyond science.

"There are biblical injunctions and secular reflection over the course of centuries, but nothing is certain or universally accepted, either scientifically or morally," Faden said. "Debate is complicated by uncertainty and uncharted territory in all of our fields of expertise. It quickly became clear how little is known."

Part of the group's concern involves the animals themselves.

"A fundamental issue was whether such experiments might unintentionally alter the animals' normal cognitive capacity in ways that could cause considerable suffering," Faden said.

Another issue is whether the procedure is "unnatural."

The group concluded that many procedures in medicine are unnatural but are not necessarily considered unethical. Pig cells have been studied for use in people with Parkinson's disease without moral objection, for example. So they set that argument aside.

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Proceed with caution

The panelists concluded that morally significant changes are least likely if the research is done on adult primates as opposed to those whose brains are still developing. Further, abhorent alterations would be less likely by using primates more distantly related to humans, such as macaque monkeys, rathern than closer relatives like apes and chimpanzees.

The group recommends that ethical groups should oversee such work based on six factors:

The number of human cells used compared with the number of cells in the animal's brain.
The developmental stage of the animal receiving the cells (fetus or adult).
The species
The animal's brain size
The site where the stem cells are placed.
Whether the animal's brain was injured or diseased.
"And, to fill in the gaps in our knowledge, proposed studies should measure and monitor behavioral, emotional and cognitive changes," Faden said. "We need to know whether the human cells have an effect on cognition, but right now, the experts aren't even quite sure what 'normal' is for some of these primates."

This post makes me want to squeeze into my badass red jeans.
CmdrSlack
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Reply #1 on: July 15, 2005, 07:54:53 AM

Now there's a way they could have made Planet of the Apes more scientifically plausible....

I traded in my fun blog for several legal blogs. Or, "blawgs," as the cutesy attorney blawgosphere likes to call 'em.
Yegolev
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Reply #2 on: July 15, 2005, 08:15:46 AM

I just don't understand Luddites.

Why am I homeless?  Why do all you motherfuckers need homes is the real question.
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tazelbain
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tazelbain


Reply #3 on: July 15, 2005, 08:20:37 AM

proceeding with caution is being a Luddite?

"Me am play gods"
Signe
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Reply #4 on: July 15, 2005, 08:22:39 AM

I have Luddite tendancies.

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Yegolev
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Reply #5 on: July 15, 2005, 08:42:15 AM

Maybe what I don't understand is what the danger is.  The article assumes I already know what will happen when a superintelligent monkey is created, but I don't.  My guess is that it will have a hard time gettting a job at McDonald's until superintelligent monkeys obtain status as a protected minority, therafter settling into a trailer while living on welfare.  Because a super-smart monkey is still going to be stupid.  Just don't attach the lasers and missile launcher and we should be fine.

I don't wear a watch, try to Keep It Simple Stupid, and don't allow glossy technology to adhere to my body... but I don't think scientific progress is a bad thing.  As long as I can opt out of having that skullphone installed.

Why am I homeless?  Why do all you motherfuckers need homes is the real question.
They called it The Prayer, its answer was law
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stray
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has an iMac.


Reply #6 on: July 15, 2005, 08:55:54 AM

Behold! Oliver, the Humanzee:





He was created the old fashioned way (EDIT: Actually, no one knows what his deal is).

He doesn't exactly want to take over the human race, but supposedly, he has a preference for human females over chimps. He's relatively harmless and just sits around, drinks coffee, and watches a lot of TV.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2005, 08:59:05 AM by Stray »
tazelbain
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tazelbain


Reply #7 on: July 15, 2005, 09:09:43 AM

well, it does depend if you are discussing the article or the title of the thread.

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Paelos
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Error 404: Title not found.


Reply #8 on: July 15, 2005, 10:04:19 AM

Mmmm, monkey threads.

I like the idea of more intelligent monkeys if they aren't smart enough to start using weapons. Then, perhaps, we can train them to bring us drinks without peeing in them first.

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Merusk
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Reply #9 on: July 15, 2005, 10:08:32 AM

Monkey waiters would still be bad.  They're strong enough to snap your neck if you don't tip well.

The whole idea falls into the 'just because you can, doesn't mean you should,' category.  Want to mess with stem cells inside a living thing? Here's an idea, use another monkey-type inside a monkey type.  Woah.

The past cannot be changed. The future is yet within your power.
HaemishM
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Reply #10 on: July 15, 2005, 12:55:03 PM

As soon as they name the first monkey Caesar, I'm shooting somebody.

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