The Economy of Savages

[schild]

"Eternal Life or your money back!"

[WindupAtheist]

I have no idea what that article just said.

[Teleku]

I'm sort of curious why you feel the older sets are better than the new ones?  I've gone through two phases of playing magic.  First, back when I was in Jr. High/High School, which had me cover basically from around The Dark till Tempest.  I just started playing Magic Online with the release of Champions of Kamigawa, around December, and have kept up till now.  The number one thing that has struck me so far about the way magic has changed since I played was how incredibly fucking powerful the cards are now compared to when I played.  The shit I run into in Kamigawa and Mirrodin kicks the crap out of what I had back in the day.  When I played they had everything ultra balanced, so really powerful shit was rare, and its main power was often just being more cost effective.  Now I run into ultra godly artifacts and legendary creatures that are cheep, have powerful abilities, and have no drawbacks to casting them.  Which is fun in its own way.  Instead of a carefully balanced duel between two decks, it feels a bit more like a nuclear war between two super powers, which is a bit more exciting anyways. 

Your theory seems to be more true for back when I first played, as previous sets like Legends and Revised all seemed to have powerful cards we could never hope to get in the newer expansions, like Ice Age and Mirage.  But that seems to have changed in the space between when I first played and now.  Just curious why you see things this way.  The newer sets seem like powerhouses to me.

Also, why the dislike of Kamigawa?  I played some Mirrodin and found I immediately hated it, but I'm having a lot of fun with Kamigawa.

As to the problem of the economics, thats a valid concern, but I think its great that are deciding to release older sets.  I was pissed when I first heard about Magic Online being developed, and that you had to buy cards instead of getting to play all the old ones for some monthly fee or something.  Trying it now I find that I actually like that, but the joy I'd get of  being able to play old, hard to get shit is still there.  I DO feel that since they aren't backing up the booster packs with actual cards, they should drop the fucking price for the damn packs.  Sure, charge something to give the online cards value and rarity and pay for the cost of running the game, but fuck, theres no need to charge 4 bucks for a pack of virtual cards that will never have costed you a cent to make.  Thats the only real hang up I have with this plan.

[Raging Turtle]

I'm not sure what you're trying to say.  Paying the same price for out of print sets is bad?  

Meh, I say.  Same price model as for all the other sets.  Doesn't really bother me or the serious collector, as most of us get our cheap cards in bulk from the trader-bots or the vendor sites online.

I don't think it'll do a thing to the value of IPA/OTJ/WTF.  Those two sets, particularly IPA, are expensive not because they're OLD, but because they're SCARCE: they were vastly underdrafted compared to everything OLS and forward, when a huge shift of new players came in.  Drafting (and currently release leagues) is where most of the online card pool comes from - thats why Apocolypse, the least drafted set online, has the most expensive cards.  

As you mentioned, Mirage and Version 3.0 should bring in a huge influx of new people.  Pretty much all those new people, plus the old people, are going to want to buy and draft the hell out of Mirage block, keeping prices for those cards low until the set isn't sold anymore.  And aaaall those new people online are going to want to get copies of old cards, even shit like OLS, making the old cards worth MORE, not LESS, since there will be a certain percentage of the new blood willing to pay 30 tix for Decree of Justice, 120 tix for 4x.  And a few years down the road, the landcyclers (Chartooth Cougar, etc, and the king, Krosan Tusker) are going to be what the chase commons of IPA are now.

If anything, I'd worry about limited numbers of Ravnica cards hitting the market, since Mirage will steal some of the thunder that a new block set brings with it.

Good to see a Magic article on the site.  

[Teleku]

Who is that in your avatar Raging Turtle?

[Trippy]

Who is that in your avatar Raging Turtle?

It looks like Zhang Ziyi.

[Raging Turtle]

I don't think its Zhang Ziyi, as thats a Chinese name and I'm 93.2% sure she's Korean.  My guess would be Chun Ji-yeong (spelled phonetically), a popular Korean actress, although I'm not positive.  I stole the avatar from an Korean ESL teacher's board.

Kind of hypnotic, isn't it?

[Sogrinaugh]

Schild, i cannot fucking belive you are bitching about 9th edition not sucking?  Fuck the secondary market right its its ass with a sawsal if its the reason each set is weaker then its previous iteration.  I happen to HATE that shit, its the reason i bought not even a single pack of 8th.

Also, i would dispute your IPA>OTJ comment.  OD block gave us decks that are competative in vintage, as well as (real) extended.  I like the IN block in general, but i hardly think its "power level" steamrolls OD.  I also cant belive you put MI behind ON?  Uhm, i and most people i know would put MI ahead of everything since Urza, and onslaught sucked pretty bad besides the goblins and tendrils of agony.

As for mirage's impact on the online market, i wouldn't sweat it.  Thier are some cool cards for sure (i happen to really like Femeref Enchantress), but i doubt thier is enough fast mana available in the online card pool to really break things like Lions Eye Diamond.  I haven't done any real in-depth probing of the sets, but a cursory glance makes it pretty obvious mirage was picked perciesely because it WOULDNT impact the secondary market so heavily.  This isn't tempest, its not urza.  Foreshadow is cool... but its a crappier version of predict.

I wouldn't claim the sky is falling just yet.  The painlands wont be as expensive, but thats a good thing.  Duals are core deck building blocks, and people need to have as "free" access to them as possible, imo.

[SuperPopTart]

I'm sorry but I really cannot believe people actually pay upwards in the amount of 90$ for a virtual magic card.

It's almost as bad as me wanting to go back to Everquest.


Almost.

[Xilren's Twin]

For a rough equivalent of what Schild is talking about, imagine if say Everquest brought back some broken items they had removed many expansions earlier.  Say... manastones.

Some players would be thrilled to get their mitts on a powerful item that was only going to be available to them if they bought an elder account that had one on it already.

But if you happened to own one of those items already, the value of your account on the secondary market just took a huge nose dive.

Should the dev's care?  Should the players?  What intentional impact should dev house have on the seconday market? What if they are involved in it?

Hell, I feel the need to write something longer...

Xilren

[schild]

I feel the need to write something longer, and put it into retard speak.

Every set except for Mirage can be redeemed for the real deal.

Mirage cannot. Mirage is a _very_ good set. Hell, it's a good block.

But they are charging full price for cards that can not be redeemed and therefore are not real. It is purely a set of virtual items.

I'll talk about it more when light doesn't hurt my eyes.

Edit: And Xilren discussed something above that I planned on elaborating on when my idea took a 180 and went towards the issue of guaranteed value.

[magicback]

The move is a risky one, but I think they have been making smart moves so far.

If they are rational, and I think they are, they are assuming at least two things:

1.  people accepts buying virtual goods (their redemption record probably has something to do with this assumption)
2.  the demand from new players for cards in the primary and secondary market will be close to the new supply (thus if secondary traders will make less money per card, they will make it back with more volume.

Also a release of something rare and valuable usually stir up a frenzy, so perhaps they are also assuming

3.  controversy shakes the equilibrium and is good PR

Frank

[HaemishM]

I can only imagine that most players really will only worry about the redemption for real cards when the shutdown of the service is iminent.

[Margalis]

I wonder how many people actually redeem sets? For someone like me it's a non-issue - I'm never going to own a full set of anything, and paper cards take up a lot of space anyway.

As far as Mirage lowering the value of newer cards, you have to remember that Mirage will not be playable in the most popular forms of magic. (Type 2 and Block constructed, newest block and newest core limited) WoTC does a good job in turning over prices with their rules in general, old better cards naturally see some dropoff in price once they rotate out of the main competitions.

[Hoax]

Very interesting read.

To those of you wondering why it seemed like MtG was pure and simple back in the day and now is a clash of nuclear super powers...

Consider your age during Antiquities -> Ice Age, compare said age to now.

I remember those times, when you killed other people with creatures and a combo had nothing to do with turn phase manipulation.

Trust me when I say, the things you could do with the really good old cards were incredibly sick compared to what you can do now.

[Margalis]

When I was young Magic didn't seem simple at all - actually it seems much simpler now.

I stopped playing Magic way back then because all the new cards got so complicated, people kepts talking about internet rulings about various cards (nobody knew how Eater of the Dead worked, for example) and other things like that. I couldn't play a game without stopping 20 times to say "can I read that card?" I'm talking about the retarded cards that had like 3 different optional effects you could choose one from, tide counters (put a counter on this thing every 3 turns, and if your counters are prime number remove 4 of them and do 1 damage!) and all that crap.

And back then everyone knew about channel->fireball and tiem vault/time walk wackiness and all that lamenes.

It was a bad time because unless you were an internet fiend or friends with comic shop owners you really didn't know WTF was going on.

[schild]

Honestly, Magic gets easier with age. It's just like any game where patience is involved.

[Fabricated]

I stopped buying paper cards shortly after the Urza Saga. I didn't play MtG:O because it looked like nothing but "bullshit combo of the week", which was...well, fucking affinity decks forever and ever. I was never a fan of sealed deck either.

Me and a good dozen friends of mine still play paper magic every now and then, and pretty much none of us have cards past Urza. My favorite set actually is Weatherlight, followed by Mirage.

[Teleku]

I always liked Ice Age alot for some damn reason, maybe it was the atmosphear.  Alliances remains my favorite expansion.

[Strazos]

I wish I had been around for the Onslaught block; I really like how the Tribes worked.

[Megrim]

Yea, i think i'm definitely in the "MTG is now child's play" camp.

I stopped playing around Urza, but have friends that still play in tourneys, etc... and from time to time i play them with one of my old decks, just for kicks. To be perfectly honest, i can't remember when i actually lost a game. Old magic just has so much more nastier stuff then what they release these day. Sure, some of it is really beastly when you look at it (that indestructable thingy in Darksteel what omgwtfpwns everything?), but overall almost every deck i've played is just so god damned simple to pick apart.

Schild might be right, its an age thing.

 - meg

[HaemishM]

Antiquities 4 life, y0.

[AOFanboi]

And back then everyone knew about channel->fireball and tiem vault/time walk wackiness and all that lamenes.

Heh. "Opponent loses next turn" indeed.

Mountain, Black Lotus, Channel, Fireball. One-turn kill. You don't get that these days.

And outside of tournament play? 20 Mountain + 40 Lightning Bolts.

What I wish for MTGO is that they reintroduce the 4C-2U-1R tournament format as an option.

[Shockeye]

Antiquities 4 life, y0.

Legends.

[AOFanboi]

Legends.

... without the distribution errors, the small print run and the fucking Kobolds: Yes.

"Legends" as it actually transpired: No.

Plus, all the bestest cards ended up in Chronicles anyway.

[schild]

If by bestest, I assume you're referring to the Elder Dragons and other Legends. To which I say, the best creatures were reprinted in chronicles, yes.

I'll tell you what I still miss:
Maze of Ith, City of Shadows, hell, I miss a lot of Dark. And wish that they'd reprint the set. There wasn't anything TERRIBLY broken about it. Not like affinity.

[magicback]

Arabian nights

I haven't kept up, but it's the one set that is based on historical tales.

Favorite opening: Swamp, Swamp, Dark Ritual, Juzám Djinn (2nd round)

The specials lands and artifacts were fun: Diamond Valley, Library of Alexandria, Ring of Ma'ruf, Shahrazad,etc.

Edit: the opening

[Xilren's Twin]

Antiquities 4 life, y0.

Legends.

Bring back Juggernaut and Nevy's disk....

Xilren

[Fabricated]

I started collecting at the worst possible time, Fallen Empires. Most of my cards are 3rd edition, with large handfulls pulled from The Dark, Antiquities, Legends, Ice Age, Mirage, Weatherlight, Homelands (bleah), Alliances (Force of Will for the win), and well, pretty much everything up to the end of Urza.

I managed to trade and get some rare cards, like Balance and Wheel of Fortune.

[HaemishM]

Antiquities 4 life, y0.

Legends.

Bring back Juggernaut and Nevy's disk....

Xilren

Shit, I used to love me some Nevy's disk. Throw down Tawnos's Coffin, with a Serra Angel in it, drop the Disk, drop Armageddon, PE-YOW, ownage.

Of course, this was in mostly multiplayer games (which were always more fun than 1 vs 1 tourney style fights), and as soon as I dropped the coffin, I was blood in the water. I only had to do that combo once to make myself very popular.

[Fabricated]

Shit, I used to love me some Nevy's disk. Throw down Tawnos's Coffin, with a Serra Angel in it, drop the Disk, drop Armageddon, PE-YOW, ownage.

Of course, this was in mostly multiplayer games (which were always more fun than 1 vs 1 tourney style fights), and as soon as I dropped the coffin, I was blood in the water. I only had to do that combo once to make myself very popular.

The kingpin cards for getting you a first-round gangrape in multiplayer games are Ivory Tower and Black Vise. Naturally, our house rules banned both of those fucking cards.

[HaemishM]

I used to love me some Icy Manipulator and the Assassin that killed critters that were tapped.

[WayAbvPar]

The Royal Assassin, I believe. Goddamn that card was a pain in the ass.

[Strazos]

And back then everyone knew about channel->fireball and tiem vault/time walk wackiness and all that lamenes.

Heh. "Opponent loses next turn" indeed.

Mountain, Black Lotus, Channel, Fireball. One-turn kill. You don't get that these days.

You can kinda still do that...

The Royal Assassin, I believe. Goddamn that card was a pain in the ass.

He's still around in 8th Ed, though I don't see him often. I traded my copy away.

[Mortriden]

I used to love me some Icy Manipulator and the Assassin that killed critters that were tapped.

I have a deck that uses that exact combo, and throws in some nettling Imps just for good measure.