Thimerosal

[Fargull]

White Noise

The information age has brought us the latest in odd news, scandal, political hi-jinx, and unfortunately a fog of too much information.  What channel to watch, why watch TV at all when you have the Internet and literally anything you could think of linked for your inspection/dissection.  Below is an article that came out in the recent issue of Rollingstone Magazine, the gist of which is a cover-up of Enron proportions, except in dealing with fake money, it is dealing with children’s lives for profit.  I have not seen a news broadcast even whisper or hiccup on the article.  I have asked among my co-workers, many of whom, myself included, have children that are affected.  Is the article fact?

Another quick web search pulls up FDA Article and of course the CDC.

Some interesting points are made on both the FDA and CDC sites showing no direct correlation; however, it is strange that the CDC proclaims at the top of the page the following.  “Today, with the exception of some Influenza (flu) vaccines, none of the vaccines used in the U.S. to protect preschool children against 12 infectious diseases contain thimerosal as a preservative.”

Again, with the power of the corporate lobby, I would not be surprised at all at the cover up mentioned in the Rollingstone Article.  I wonder even if the article's point makes it to the front of the NYT if it will create an impact, or just be drowned out by the next runaway bride.

Honestly not sure where this post should go, here or Politics, but a need to post and get opinions has been itching at me for about a week.

[Shockeye]

I would leave this in general if only because I think everyone should read this instead of putting it into politics where only a few will.

[Morfiend]

I have a friend who has a 2 year old girl who is "Mildly Autistic".

She was 100% fine, the day she got some vaccines, she got really sick. She came down with a feaver for 5 days. After she recovered, she stopped making eye contact, and totally shutdown. When she used to be a very verbal girl, she compleatly stopped talking. A few weeks later she was diagnosed with "Mild Autism".

The mother is totally convinced it had to do with her vaccine shots. She is also now very active in the Autistic community. With a bunch of work, he daughter is sort of comming out of it, but its still a lot of hard for for her, and is very trying for her. On top of that, because Autism is considered untreatable, she is having a hell of a time getting any money from her health insurance.

Take that how you will.

[Pococurante]

I know there are a lot of folks opposed to this sort of thing, but unfortunately this is really the only approach that works.

[Shockeye]

"Last week ABC canceled a story about a dangerous chemical in child inoculations. Last night, the network broadcast a recut version of its original story that had been edited into a piece of industry propaganda."

An opposition to the RFK, Jr. piece.

[Nebu]

People like to fixate on things.  Thimerosal is one of them.  Meanwhile, people are cramming things into their faces daily that can cause greater harm and they do it willingly.  For the few of you that care, this is a good place to start.

[Shockeye]

Ick. Words.

[Fargull]

Well, seems more noise in the water than I first noticed.  Thanks for the links everyone.  The Opposition link you posted was a good read.  The article certainly seemed slanted, but I still think it holds a pretty good sized kernal of truth.

[Abagadro]

They stopped using Thimerosol in the US in 2003. I doubt they would have done that if there wasn't something to the allegations.  I have no faith in the FDA or CDC after all the rediculous suppression of bad medical facts (Vioxx anyone?) to protect the bottom line of big drug companies.

[Nebu]

They stopped using Thimerosol in the US in 2003. I doubt they would have done that if there wasn't something to the allegations.  I have no faith in the FDA or CDC after all the rediculous suppression of bad medical facts (Vioxx anyone?) to protect the bottom line of big drug companies.

The scientific evidence early in the Vioxx investigations were pretty skewed.  If you look at the test populations you'd see that they were looking for a pretty specific outcome. There's a lot more to that story than most people will ever know.  In my professional opinion, Vioxx is a very good drug when use for very specific circumstances.  The overprescription of Vioxx was the greatest blame in its downfall.  It just goes to show you that many MD's still get their pharmacy training from drug reps that put on nice lunches.

[Joe]

I would read this, but Lindsay Lohan is talking about her weightloss on E!

E! stands for Entertainment!

More shit that should land people in jail that'll never become a scandal because we've become increasingly better at ignoring ourselves.

[Abagadro]

They stopped using Thimerosol in the US in 2003. I doubt they would have done that if there wasn't something to the allegations.  I have no faith in the FDA or CDC after all the rediculous suppression of bad medical facts (Vioxx anyone?) to protect the bottom line of big drug companies.

The scientific evidence early in the Vioxx investigations were pretty skewed.  If you look at the test populations you'd see that they were looking for a pretty specific outcome. There's a lot more to that story than most people will ever know.  In my professional opinion, Vioxx is a very good drug when use for very specific circumstances.  The overprescription of Vioxx was the greatest blame in its downfall.  It just goes to show you that many MD's still get their pharmacy training from drug reps that put on nice lunches.

There was an intersting show on NPR about this where they quoted a bunch of internal Merck emails about how they were scrabling to suppress the information about the risks and intimidating the medical departments (specifically Standford) of physicians who were starting to come out against it while still pressing the drug to MDs. Something wrong with that picture.

[Fargull]

I would read this, but Lindsay Lohan is talking about her weightloss on E!

I noticed no boobie reduction of Ms. Lohan when I watched Herbie with my boy this weekend.  What did I post this thread about...

[schild]

You contributed to the Herbie bank?

Boooooo.

[Fargull]

You contributed to the Herbie bank?

Boooooo.

Blah.  My boy loved it.  Course, he is almost five, so that probably explains a lot.  I am paying restitution for those movies in my youth I thought were great when I watched them, but now make me stabby.

[HaemishM]

They stopped using Thimerosol in the US in 2003. I doubt they would have done that if there wasn't something to the allegations.  I have no faith in the FDA or CDC after all the rediculous suppression of bad medical facts (Vioxx anyone?) to protect the bottom line of big drug companies.

The scientific evidence early in the Vioxx investigations were pretty skewed.  If you look at the test populations you'd see that they were looking for a pretty specific outcome. There's a lot more to that story than most people will ever know.  In my professional opinion, Vioxx is a very good drug when use for very specific circumstances.  The overprescription of Vioxx was the greatest blame in its downfall.  It just goes to show you that many MD's still get their pharmacy training from drug reps that put on nice lunches.

I will reiterate my growing discomfort with the mainstream marketing of presciption drugs to consumers. Doctors have always been marketed to and solicited, and while I'm not necessarily comfortable with that, at least a doctor is trained well enough to figure out what drugs he should and shouldn't prescribe. He has no excuse when it comes to using the wrong drug. Doctors have the training to either see through marketing bullshit, OR at least the training to know how to research the drug properly.

Consumers are in no way prepared to tell their doctor what drug they should have. Telling consumers to ask for drugs by name is a really slippery ethical slope, IMO. Consumers are easily led, and I'd rather profit not be a motivating factor in which drugs get used. The outright suppression of negative research data? That shit should be punished harsher than accounting scandals like the Enron and Wolrdcomm convictions. That shit isn't just people's money, though it is that, it's also people's health AND the health of the economy because of the fucked up state of medical insurance in this country.

Vioxx may be a great drug with some very bad side effects. And it probably should be prescribed in a limited set of circumstances. The problem is that it's marketed as the wonder drug that everyone should be using. There aren't any drugs I can think of that aren't marketed as the "wonder drug" for their particular treatment.

[Pococurante]

The Opposition link you posted was a good read.

It was worth a read but the fact he focused mainly on discrediting people and his own share of selective quote-mining make his piece nothing more than opinion that dangerously discredits the overall issue.

There's interesting evidence that children who "immediately" showed autistic symptoms also have high inverse correlation to a body enzyme that removes heavy metals from the body.  Using mercury derivatives as a storage preservative in vaccines puts such people at risk, particularly very young children/infants whose immune systems are already vulnerable.  Vaccines are not calibrated to people - people are not evaluated for appropriateness except in particularly chronic cases.

At least in this area Orac shows some temperance: mercury levels are rising across the board as seen in first wave predators like fish and amphibians.  The US has been particularly aggressive the last few years relaxing or abolishing regulations restricting mercury emissions.  Industrial expansion is breathtaking around the globe and while America's premium controls are still superior it's no surprise the problem of chronic conditions traditionally associated with heavy metals is worsening.

But calling the initiative to remove mercury-based preservatives as "quackery" and "pseudoscience" means this guy should stick to blogging about golf and dinosaur rock.  Heavy metals have notoriously strong effects at trivial amounts.

Blogger != Expert
Blogging != Trade Journalism

Parents need to make sure their kid's vaccines use some other form of preservative.  Yes they are more expensive.  No insurance may not cover it.  But there are worse things one can do to a kid.

[Fargull]

At least in this area Orac shows some temperance: mercury levels are rising across the board as seen in first wave predators like fish and amphibians.  The US has been particularly aggressive the last few years relaxing or abolishing regulations restricting mercury emissions.  Industrial expansion is breathtaking around the globe and while America's premium controls are still superior it's no surprise the problem of chronic conditions traditionally associated with heavy metals is worsening.

Poc, what is Orac?  I was under the impression that Mercury was being controlled to even a greater degree, but your saying it was actually being relaxed?

Parents need to make sure their kid's vaccines use some other form of preservative.  Yes they are more expensive.  No insurance may not cover it.  But there are worse things one can do to a kid.

Yes.  I know I was not well informed when my son was born about what was being used for immunization, only told what he needed.  I now do not give my boy anything without first doing research into what exactly is being proscribed.

[Pococurante]

Poc, what is Orac?  I was under the impression that Mercury was being controlled to even a greater degree, but your saying it was actually being relaxed?

Orac is the guy who runs that blogging site who wrote the entry countering Salon.  He tells us he is an academic scientist - maybe there is more background on him available but I didn't look much farther than his About page.  But for a guy who likes to criticize others he seems pretty secretive about himself.  I find blogs mildly entertaining but I don't use them for anything more than a jumping off point.  (Same for Wikipedia!)  But academics tend to rely pretty heavily on corporations to get their funding so in my view he too is susceptible to wishful thinking.  Or worse.

If you live in the US yeah the regulations here are being relaxed across the board, everything from permissable pollution levels to new/grandfathered factory requirements.  It would be hard for me to point you quickly to some good summaries since I'd have to filter out all the propaganda sites (on all sides).  In a few short years our current administration has dismantled some of the most amazing accomplishments of bipartisanship from the last three decades.  This isn't a partisan issue with me.  More accurate to call self-preservation.

Yes.  I know I was not well informed when my son was born about what was being used for immunization, only told what he needed.  I now do not give my boy anything without first doing research into what exactly is being proscribed.

Don't feel bad.  There's just too much crap in the world to know and all too often life is just a crapshoot whether you can learn about something before it bites you in the ass.  But it is possible to balance living a normal life with constant self-education.  Only thing I found that works is talk to a shitload of people and be constructively critical of what I hear... ;-)

[Nebu]

Let me quote a statement from a paper a colleague of mine wrote back in 2001 on just this topic (for reference: Clinical Toxicology 2001, 39(7), 707-710)

Based on (arguements above) it can be seen that the FDA risk assessment for Thimerosal is based on multiple questionable assumptions. One of these ignores fundamental Physiologically Based Pharmacokinetic (PBPK) considerations, another incorrectly endorses the Reference dose (Rfd) concept as applicable to short term exposures, the last assumes that what is true of methylmercury is true of ethylmercury.

Flaws in the logic of those who overestimate risk from dental amalgams or mercury in vaccines are attributable to a pervasive misunderstanding among the toxicologically uninitiated - a fundamental confusion between the concepts of "exposure" and "dose". Although the concept, once understood, is trivially obvious, patients are still spending large amounts of money to have their amalgams removed and parents are questioning whether they have caused harm in their children by having them vaccinated.  In our society the determination of risks from chemical exposures is a major issue for regulators and lawmakers.  The implications of these determinations are huge.  Let us not forget that the assessment of risk from chemical exposure requires a compulsive application of basic toxicologic principles.

In summary: The FDA jumped to some ill supported conclusions based on pressures from other sources rather than from pure scientific data.  The costs to the consumer have, as a result,  been increased with little evidence that the preservative was actually at fault. 

I teach the clinical toxicology of heavy metals and find that there just isn't enough evidence to support the claims made by the FDA.  I almost feel that they are merely bowing to political pressures and cowtowing to the pharmaceutical industry in an attempt to support more costly (aka profitable) preservatives in vaccines.

[Pococurante]

I teach the clinical toxicology of heavy metals and find that there just isn't enough evidence to support the claims made by the FDA.  I almost feel that they are merely bowing to political pressures and cowtowing to the pharmaceutical industry in an attempt to support more costly (aka profitable) preservatives in vaccines.

So what has prevented the industry in more than half a century from using preservatives not based on heavy metals.  I ask this question as a businessman sensitive to market pressures and my company's perceived weaknesses that can be exploited by my competitors.

Are you comfortable studies have been broad and deep enough to rule out any influence at all regardless of the physiology of all people?  In your quote by Brent all I see is very careful phrasing that something *should* not be a problem if I just understood "what is true of methylmercury is true of ethylmercury".

Not being difficult - I'm genuinely curious.

[Nebu]

So what has prevented the industry in more than half a century from using preservatives not based on heavy metals.  I ask this question as a businessman sensitive to market pressures and my company's perceived weaknesses that can be exploited by my competitors.

I'm an inorganic chemist by training so my bias may show here.  To be completely honest, I don't have a good answer.  I think that there are better alternatives than ethylmercury derivatives, but then we create issues of cost-benefit.  This is especially true in countries where increasing the cost of a vaccination by even $1 per dose would limit its widespread use.  For the last few decades these additives have provided good antibiotic activity at a very low cost with minimal risk.  I'd say that's a recipe for success.

I'll point you toward institutional medicine for some analogies.  If you're a patient in a Vet hospital or a state sponsored institution, your drug treatment regiment will definately be determined with cost as a contributing factor.  Patients are often given less expensive drugs if the cost-benefit analysis is reasonable.  Antidepressants, antibiotics, and neuroleptics are prime examples.

In this country, you get what you pay for with medical care. Insurance companies have a stranglehold on the system in this regard.

Are you comfortable studies have been broad and deep enough to rule out any influence at all regardless of the physiology of all people?  In your quote by Brent all I see is very careful phrasing that something *should* not be a problem if I just understood "what is true of methylmercury is true of ethylmercury".

Is Thimerosal 100% safe? I doubt it.  Is it likely that 1 in 100,000 cases could develop a complication from its use? Possibly. As a scientist I'm never satisfied that we've ever probed deep enough.  The question I'd pose would be "Have we done enough research to determine with a reasonable degree of certainty that the risk of Thimerosal is low or statistically insignificant?"  I think that we have.  Of course, there are always populations that remain unexplored and often those are the ones that present unique biochemistry.  Are there risks associated with Thimerosal? Certainly.  I'd say they are likely less than that of the vaccination itself or many other popularly used agents.

What I think most people fail to realize is that medicine is a practice rather than an exact science.  We as humans have far too many variables to ever control.  As such the treatment of disease must be approached with a certain degree of probability. We also have to recognize that being poor, while not making you less human, does have a negative impact on your quality of healthcare.

I agree that we should search for better alternative preservatives.  I also feel that the use of Thimerosal was safe and effective in the vast majority of people it was used on.  I can quickly name 100 drugs that are currently in use with higher risk profiles... and people are clammoring for them.  What I see here is a fragment of a deeper societal issue: people go to the doctor wanting a "magic bullet" rather than the truth.  When they don't get what they want, there is obviously some factor to blame.

Note: I enjoy the rebuttal.  I never considered it as "being difficult".

[Jayce]

I didn't read any of the articles linked, so I don't have an opinion.  I just wanted to add that apparently, thimeserol was used in contact lens solutions for a long time.  When I first got contacts, most of the cleaning solutions (I think?) that I bought claimed in proud letters "Now with no thimeserol".

How many of you wear contacts?  That could explain a thing or two.  /rimshot

[Joe]

I didn't read any of the articles linked, so I don't have an opinion.

Please don't ever post again.

[Fargull]

Joe,

Damn I have missed that.  Thank you for making my day a little better.

[Trippy]

I didn't read any of the articles linked, so I don't have an opinion.  I just wanted to add that apparently, thimeserol was used in contact lens solutions for a long time.  When I first got contacts, most of the cleaning solutions (I think?) that I bought claimed in proud letters "Now with no thimeserol".

How many of you wear contacts?  That could explain a thing or two.  /rimshot

Yup I wore contacts (and still do but not most of all the time) back in the days of non-thimerosal-free contact lens solution. That also happened to be my period of greatest academic achievement. Clearly mercury must be good for the brain!

[Strazos]

Kinda scarey reading that stuff.

I don't know, but my logic dictates that using a heavy metal in something that goes into a person's body is a Bad Idea (tm).

And fuck Pharm corp's.


One thing I notice...people that take medicine a lot get sick more.

I never take anything more potent than the occassional antihistamine or ibuprofin/equivalent. I haven't been particularly ill for years.

[Joe]

I haven't been particularly ill for years.

This just means you're due. Most people tend to go in 3-5 year cycles of illness, especially with seasonal colds and flu. Running to the doctor every time you get the sniffles probably doesn't help you on the immunity side of things, though, so seeing them fall out of that pattern makes sense. I know a few girls who seem to get sick monthly. I haven't gotten really sick in a few years now, either, and I tend not to take medicine when I start to feel oogy.

Vitamins and working out go a long way, too. When the office gets the plague, I make sure I have enough vitamin C in me to turn into an orange, and usually come out ok. It's a good thing, too, because I'm a total pussy when I'm sick.

[Shockeye]

When the office gets the plague, I make sure I have enough vitamin C in me to turn into an orange, and usually come out ok. It's a good thing, too, because I'm a total pussy when I'm sick.

They've shown vitamin C doesn't do squat.

[Triforcer]

When the office gets the plague, I make sure I have enough vitamin C in me to turn into an orange, and usually come out ok. It's a good thing, too, because I'm a total pussy when I'm sick.

They've shown vitamin C doesn't do squat.

It works in the same way that MMO phat lewtz and pvp ownage make our irl penises bigger.  Belief. 

[Llava]

My girlfriend can attest that since I've started playing MMOGs, my penis has grown at least one inch.

Do you have a placebo sample to disprove this?

I thought not.

[Jayce]

When the office gets the plague, I make sure I have enough vitamin C in me to turn into an orange, and usually come out ok. It's a good thing, too, because I'm a total pussy when I'm sick.

They've shown vitamin C doesn't do squat.

Belief. 

The placebo effect works great for me.  Consider decaffeinated coffee.

Also, I'm a counter example to the "don't take medicine, don't get sick" thing.  I rarely take as much as a Tylenol when I'm sick, but I still come down with something or other at least a few times a year.

[Joe]

Leave my placebo habits alone. Next you'll tell me recycling doesn't actually help the environment.

[Miasma]

Leave my placebo habits alone. Next you'll tell me recycling doesn't actually help the environment.

My town has this dirty little electricity company, it is the only place that has an old-fashioned smokestack and it pumps out a thick jet-black discharge - mainly at night so people can't see it.  I found out a few months ago that all of my town's carefully sorted newspaper, cardboard and other paper products are not being turned into new recycled paper.  It all gets sent to that company and they burn it to produce a miniscule amount of electricity.

The thought of inhaling all of my newspapers and cereal boxes kind of affects my urge to "recycle" them.

[Fargull]

Ahh.. Black Lung is such a wonderful thing.  Where I grew up (hello hurricane) the local Monsanto plant kept on pushing the thumbs up for the enviroment, but a good friend of mine's dad worked as a security officer at the plant and would tell us stories of watching birds fly through the plume and then plummet dead on the other side.