I went to Legoland, or: Why I have no hope for today's youth.

[AcidCat]

The love you feel for a child wont compare to anything you have ever experienced before. Not the love of parents and not the love of a SO. It's something so pure and so primal that it is often scary. There's a pretty simple and depressing reason why the suicide rate for parents that loose their kids is very high.
Me, I totally lost the ability to enjoy shows like E.R., because they always have kids dying from cancer and whatnot... scary stuff, which only touched me in a remote way before but cuts straight to my heart now.

 But the first time your kid says "I love you dad" and you know it's the most true thing they have ever felt or expressed, you'll never feel the same again.

A lot of great responses from parents in here. Chalk me up as another one who didn't want to have kids initially, didn't want the responsibility, didn't want to give up my freedom. Well, things certainly change. I can't imagine living without my kids now (5 year old daughter and 10 month old son). Yeah, they are a huge responsibility, yeah disciplining them is a huge challenge and test of patience, yeah you give up a lot of freedom (uh, when was the last time me and my wife had an actual night out? umm...) ... but the rewards children bring into your life are ... impossible to quantify. You really do not know how powerful a love can be until you experience the love you have for your child ... and the love they give back. And the fun, the sense of discovery, everything new to them .... kind of gives you your own second childhood. They are perfect to stir you out of a rut, keep you on your toes, keep you flexible, keep you laughing .... dirty diapers and spilled juice and temper tantrums are a small price to pay.

[RhyssaFireheart]

And for an opposing viewpoint (just kidding) it really is all right if you don't ever change your mind.  I'll be 38 in September, and I have no desire to have kids.  It's not just the fact that it's probably not medically possible for me to have children anymore (ectopic pregnancy tends to ruin that tube, and finding out the other is deformed was the icing), but that my husband and I really do not desire children.

It wasn't always that way.  We got married and talked about kids, and how we'd raise them, etc., but it just didn't happen.  I told my husband that we either had a kid by the time I was 32 at the latest, or it wasn't happening.  Well, that ectopic happened when I was 30, and we weren't even trying.  But I think back and figure that it probably was for the best, even though I had tons of friends tell me that I would have made a great mom.

I no longer have the patience that I did when I was in my 20s.  I definitely do not want to be an older parent and pushing 60 before the kid is out on their own.  My mom was 29 when she had her youngest, and there is 10 years between my oldest and youngest brothers.  My parents are barely into their 60s and they have all the freedom they can handle.  If I could have had that, I might have had kids, but it didn't happen, so I don't.

And I'm just fine with that decision.  Makes it much easier to plan when the husband and I want to head off somewhere to go diving.

[Pococurante]

Makes it much easier to plan when the husband and I want to head off somewhere to go diving.

Ah yes me and mine are chomping at the bit to get in some blue water again.  My eldest has asked we work something out with her younger sibs so we can get her certified and take a trip.  Unless one has a good support network it's pretty much impossible to get away.  Fortunately we do.

[Ironwood]

Ah yes me and mine are chomping at the bit to get in some blue water again. 

Yeah, public toilets are great.

Oh, right.  You meant diving.

[Hanzii]

A good point well made

But that's not really the same. That's you coming to terms with reality. Examining your possiblities and making sure you enjoy life with the man you love - which is really great, considering how many people ruin a good relationship trying desperately to have kids, when nature tells them it's not going to happen. You thought it through and decided what was best for you.

Our point was that we've all heard 20-somthings say they'd never have kids (or said it ourselves)  and just made our longwinded "uh uh... talk to us again when you're past 35"-replies.

Of course a life without kids is perfectly fine. And I have more respect for adults choosing not to for various reasons, than unfit parents doing it without a second thought - but that decision is just not carved in stone when youre in your twenties.

And kids did cut into my diving, but not totally, and whenever my 4-year old sees someone in a wetsuit, she says that's my daddy... and in 14-16 years time, I get to show her that wonderful world beneath the waves.

[Strazos]

In my experience, kids are a pain in the ass. My cousin now has 2 children, WAY before she should have had any. My young cousin is a complete asstard, and her mother does nothing to curb her misbehavior. I saw tons of moronic parents and kids in retail.

I don't particularly want any.

Also, please keep in mind that I'm still in college, and will be in college/prepatory programs for the next 3-10 years. If all goes accordingly, my profession of choice won't really allow for childrearing.

Or a social life, for that matter...as if I had one now. 

I see lots of people who shouldn't have kids. I know others who don't have kids, but would produce good children (not to be conceited, but myself included). I wish less people would have less kids...too many fucktards.

[Llava]

I A kid throwing a giant wailing fit and the parent doing little more than blind screaming or ignoring their child?  AW HELL NAW!

Yeah, because, you know, giving in to a three year old throwing a tantrum because it might inconvenience some random blowhard teaches SUCH a good life lesson to the kid. 

I think he wasn't calling for the parent to give in to the tantrum, but for them to either drag their kid out of there and handle the situation in a more appropriate environment, or to quickly and effectively shut the kid up and teach them the lesson.  The second one is nearly impossible, unless you count smacking the kid (which I'd say was a bad call on the part of the parent, but it's their call to make) so it'd be nice to have parents keeping an eye on nearby restrooms and such so they can discipline their kid accordingly in an environment without many spectators.

And on the subject of irresponsible parents:

My girlfriend is from a Mexican family.  Her immediate family is pretty decent, they escaped from the hellhole of southern Texas/northern Mexico.  But man, the stories I've heard.  Stupid, stupid fucking people in this world.

"Well sure I'm in debt and my kid could use some money to go to college and we really only have our heads above water because my brother generously sends us money every month but... LET'S BUY SOME NEW CARS!  $0 down=FREE!"

[Daeven]

I think he wasn't calling for the parent to give in to the tantrum, but for them to either drag their kid out of there and handle the situation in a more appropriate environment, or to quickly and effectively shut the kid up and teach them the lesson.  The second one is nearly impossible, unless you count smacking the kid (which I'd say was a bad call on the part of the parent, but it's their call to make) so it'd be nice to have parents keeping an eye on nearby restrooms and such so they can discipline their kid accordingly in an environment without many spectators.

That is a fantastic sentiment, and I think I speak for all responsible parents when I say that that is the preferred method of dealing with kids who refuse to listen. In a restaurant and they are making a scene? Take them out to the car until they can handle the situation (of course, if you are the only parent, how do you pay for the check? Ah details). If you are in a store - again, car or the restroom until they can sort out their anger.

But here’s the thing. There will always be situations when the above simply cannot happen. For example: The checkout line at the register. With all of those lovely candies and pretty wrapped things just reachable by toddlers. Who will WANT THE DAMN CANDY RIGHT FUCKING NOW! And so, you can either give in and give them the damn candy so they'll stop bellowing because you said no, or, you deal with it and the inevitable glares from clueless fuckwads.

Sometimes kids throw temper tantrums because they don't know how to express their displeasure rationally yet. And sometimes, there is *nothing* the parent can do. And you, a fellow traveler of humanity, need to fucking deal - knowing full well that the parent probably wants out of there even more than you do.

[Pococurante]

Smack a kid in public these days and you face the very real threat of jail and even loss of custody.  And by "smack" I mean corporal punishment well within the bounds of acceptability.

Sucks but true.

[HaemishM]

If you discipline your child correctly at home, those tantrums in public? They can be dealt with without beating the shit out of them, giving in to them, or having to drag them away.

[Strazos]

Discipline being the key word...something many parents lack nowadays.

[Abagadro]

It's easy to talk about if you've never had to do it.  Just saying, and it's something you can't really understand until you've been there.

[Roac]

It's easy to talk about if you've never had to do it.  Just saying, and it's something you can't really understand until you've been there.

[Strazos]

It's easy to talk about if you've never had to do it.  Just saying, and it's something you can't really understand until you've been there.

Perhaps, but I think we can all agree that my statement still holds up.

[Roac]

Perhaps, but I think we can all agree that my statement still holds up.

Maybe, but your statement is like saying "I want an MMOG done right".  It may be a good goal, and maybe you can claim that most don't make the mark, but it's not really saying anything.  Wherever it is you set the bar, you say many don't make it.  Ok, but it says nothing about the bar, why you set it as you did, or why people didn't make it.

[Polysorbate80]

It's easy to talk about if you've never had to do it.  Just saying, and it's something you can't really understand until you've been there.

Perhaps, but I think we can all agree that my statement still holds up.

How about a little discipline on the part of non-parents?  As in, understanding that glaring and complaining at us when our child is having a discipline problem is not helping anyone or anything?  I wish they came with a magic dial I could switch to "always on best behavior", but...

My daughter will be two at the end of July.  The majority of the time she's happy, reasonably polite, helps pick up after herself, doesn't like messy clothes, listens to her mother and I, and is a joy to be around. 

She can also flip into a near-hysterical tantrum at the drop of a hat with no warning.  She's started testing her limits, she isn't old enough to really have any sense of empathy towards others, and she can't always articulate her problem, especially when she's highly worked up.  She had one for over an hour the other night, and for the life of us we *still* can't figure out what it was even about.

I'm with Abogadro; you don't fully comprehend the ability of the small child to generate an unwarranted, incomprehensible raging shitstorm until you've had one of your own.  And sorry, Haemish, but there's no magical discipline tool for a kid that age that doesn't primarily involve a lot of gritting your teeth and sucking it up...

[AcidCat]

I'm with Abogadro; you don't fully comprehend the ability of the small child to generate an unwarranted, incomprehensible raging shitstorm until you've had one of your own.  And sorry, Haemish, but there's no magical discipline tool for a kid that age that doesn't primarily involve a lot of gritting your teeth and sucking it up...

So true. Small children can work themselves into hysterical states that only time will get them out of. There have definitely been times where the only solution was to put her in her room and let her scream herself out and just weather the storm. Thankfully most of her outbursts have not happened in public.

[HaemishM]

Did I say there was a magic discipline tool that you could use and suddenly, everything would be all right automagically? No. I said what is needed is fucking discipline.

It's a SIMPLE solution. Discipline. Just because it is simple does not mean it is EASY. Two entirely different concepts. I think that most people who are parents believe that it should be easy, when it is the hardest fucking thing in the world. First off, kids are incredibly fucking cute. Absolutely, pricelessly cute, even when and sometimes ESPECIALLY when they are being bad. My niece is a well-behaved child but she acts bad sometimes, and even when she does, she's still just so cute doing it. Like when a kid who knows he isn't supposed to reach in the cookie jar is caught with his hand in the cookie jar and just gives you that "I know I'm bad, but I don't REALLY know I'm bad, see cute eyes AWWWWWWW!" look. You can just melt, and you know that the child is being bad.

 How do I know this, even though I do not have children of my own? Because even my nieces and nephews, and my dog who is like a really retarded non-speaking child, have this effect on me. And I can only imagine that the love I feel for my niece and nephews is about one-billionith of the love I'll feel for my own child. And when I have to spank my dog, I feel like absolute shit sometimes, because even though I know she's been bad, I feel like a fucking heel. So I can well imagine how hard it will be to discipline a child on which the sun sets and rises, even when I know they are being bad.

But that doesn't change the fact that the key to having a child act right in public is discipline in private, teaching a child just how far they can push it. That's the simple solution, it just isn't easy. And I think far too many parents think that it'll be easy, or that someone who is saying exactly what I said is telling them that "the solution is easy and automagic and VOILA! Nice child." I'm not. Simple, not easy.

Most parents want things to be easy, and they will almost never be with a child. And yes, sometimes, even with the best discipline, a kid will still act out in public, just because they can or for no discernible reason.

[Polysorbate80]

It's a SIMPLE solution. Discipline.

Bwahahaha!  If you and the missus are planning on procreation, yer in for a surprise...

Anyway, you're half right, you're just not comprehending the magnitude of the situation.

Discipline isn't complicated.  Any guilt you feel about it is quickly outweighed by the toll the behavior takes on the parents, trust me--"I couldn't possibly hit my darling little scooter-pookums" turns into "Shit, I can't beat the little peckerhead; now what the hell am I going to do?"

What it IS, is horribly, dreadfully tedious.

It's not *BAM* "Settle down and fly right!" followed by model behavior.  It takes time.  Lots, and lots, and LOTS of fucking time.  Frankly, I'm not sure if it ends (Lord, I hope so)...but it does get better.  Eventually.  In the meantime, the shit will fly.  At home, in public, you name it.

Most of us are not looking for it to be easy.  Ok, well, we DO wish it were easier.  But it's not--for us or you.  My daughter's latest batch of tempermental behavior has been going off and on for oh, about a week now.  It could stop tonight, or it could drag on another week.  Who knows?  Kids don't work the same way adults do. 

We're working on it, bear with us.  People bitching about it doesn't help--it provides attention for the kid and pressure for the parents to give in just to quiet the child down, ensuring more shit later.  Suck it up and help us out, folks; even if you don't want kids of your own, you'll be happy to have someone around to provide your medicine and fix your toilets when you're a tottering geezer.

[HaemishM]

I think you stopped reading after the sentence quoted. SIMPLE NOT EASY.

It's hard. It takes a lot of time, patience, blood, sweat and tears. Just like anything worthwhile. I'm in for plenty of surprises, but the time requirement and patience required for discipline is not one of them.

[WayAbvPar]

My only complaint is people whose kids act out in public, who either scream at/beat the shit out of their kid while still in public, or try to reason with the kid in public. IMHO, the instant the kid gets out of line in public, he/she should be removed from the public instantly and disciplined accordingly. If that means that parents can't go certain places with certain ages of children, then so be it. Having children is a lifestyle choice; it doesn't need to intrude unduly on the lives of other adults who either left their kids at home or are childless.

[CmdrSlack]

My only complaint is people whose kids act out in public, who either scream at/beat the shit out of their kid while still in public, or try to reason with the kid in public. IMHO, the instant the kid gets out of line in public, he/she should be removed from the public instantly and disciplined accordingly. If that means that parents can't go certain places with certain ages of children, then so be it. Having children is a lifestyle choice; it doesn't need to intrude unduly on the lives of other adults who either left their kids at home or are childless.

While I agree that there are some places you don't need to take kids, I just thought it was funny to call having kids a "lifestyle choice."  Good thing people choose that lifestyle choice....or else we'd be pretty fucked as a species.

I'm sure raising kids is hard, and now that I'm an officially expecting dad, I'm in the "oh shit this is gonna be hard" phase.  While I'd never take a small child to a fancy restaurant for dinner, if I'm at the store with my kid and that kid acts out...how is that intruding unduly on the lives of other adults?  The store seems like a fair game place to bring your child, and really, I could give a rat's ass if your trip to the store is "sullied" by a crying child.  Get a grip, it's the friggin grocery store.  The stuff that truly pisses me off is when I see the parents reacting inappropriately to their kid's behavior.  Jerking them around like rag dolls/smacking the shit out of them is never appropriate, let alone in public.  I was spanked by my parents once.  Once.  They discovered that Catholic guilt worked a lot better.   

Now if my kid was to ever act up at Wrigley Field, that's a different story.  There's just some places that are sacred.

[Pococurante]

My only complaint is people whose kids act out in public, who either scream at/beat the shit out of their kid while still in public, or try to reason with the kid in public. IMHO, the instant the kid gets out of line in public, he/she should be removed from the public instantly and disciplined accordingly. If that means that parents can't go certain places with certain ages of children, then so be it. Having children is a lifestyle choice; it doesn't need to intrude unduly on the lives of other adults who either left their kids at home or are childless.

Reasoning with kids is a huge part of raising self-disciplined kids.  Parents who always drop the hammer often have some of the worse kids.  "Instantly" is nonsense and completely unrealistic.  Next time you're out in public think through how *you'd* make this work.

All society has some obligation to children regardless of their own lifestyle choices.  If *you* feel otherwise go live in an adult-only communities.  Freedom of association doesn't mean twisting society to put lint in your belly button.

[WayAbvPar]

I would handle it the same way I expect other parents to handle it- as soon as the kid is making enough of a fuss for EVERYONE IN THE FUCKING STORE to stop and stare, I would drag their little ass out to the car and discipline them. If the kid can't be trusted to act correctly in public, then they don't get to go out in public.

I realize it is a really tough job, but it is one that is worth doing correctly. I would be horrified if my kids had everyone in the store staring at me. It is the people who just ignore the tantrum and expect me and everyone else to ignore it that fucking piss me off.

I have said it a million times, so here is one more- it is criminal that people need a license to get married, but anyone with functioning genitalia can reproduce.

As for those who are going to tell me that I will feel differently when I have kids- every time I see a kid going ballistic, I am one step closer to getting snipped. So I suppose I should thank the irresponsible parents- they are probably going to end up saving me a ton of money, time, and aggravation.

For those of you who do it right (and there are tons of you out there)- I applaud you.

[Polysorbate80]

I think you stopped reading after the sentence quoted. SIMPLE NOT EASY.

It's hard. It takes a lot of time, patience, blood, sweat and tears. Just like anything worthwhile. I'm in for plenty of surprises, but the time requirement and patience required for discipline is not one of them.

No, I read it.  You're correct in saying the kids/parents need discipline, but you provide no evidence that you really comprehend how to learn or apply it, and the time and tribulations involved.  Your grasp of the principles is ok, grasshopper, but your technique and application are non-existent.

WAP:  ...that last post was so full of bullshit I'm not sure where to start.  I recommend you go for the vasectomy now, since if you were applying for one of those hypothetical reproduction licenses you'd surely fail.

[Abagadro]

To all the experts: please let me know the concrete steps of the successful "discipline" of which you speak.   I don't want generalities. Tell me what to do.

[WayAbvPar]

How you do it is up to you. All I am asking is that you don't do it in public. Take them outside, or to the car, or into a bathroom, or whathaveyou.

[AcidCat]

I would be horrified if my kids had everyone in the store staring at me.

Maybe that's the issue right there. Though my daughter is usually well behaved in public, if she has a fit because maybe she can't get a toy or something, I'm really not concerned what random people in the store think about it. Who gives a shit if someone stares at your crying kid? Likewise big deal if you're in a store and see little Billy throwing a tantrum. It's called being in public for a reason, you have to deal with other people, that's life. I also don't like it when old people take forever at the checkout, I'm not about to say learn to make a transaction quickly and efficiently or stay out of the fucking store!. Just one of many minor annoyances you may have to accept in a public place.

[Polysorbate80]

learn to make a transaction quickly and efficiently or stay out of the fucking store!.

I think it was Dennis Miller, talking about waiting in line behind old people taking forever to get through a salad bar...

"What are those things...?"

"They're called carrots, Grandpa.  They're good for your eyes.  Take a bunch!"

Eh, maybe ya had to be there...

[WayAbvPar]

Likewise big deal if you're in a store and see little Billy throwing a tantrum. It's called being in public for a reason, you have to deal with other people, that's life. I also don't like it when old people take forever at the checkout, I'm not about to say learn to make a transaction quickly and efficiently or stay out of the fucking store!. Just one of many minor annoyances you may have to accept in a public place.

Yes, it is called being in public, and there is a decorum to be maintained. I don't go in the store in my boxers, or scream obscenities at random passersby, or soil myself just to see the reaction of other people. Kids don't understand most of this, so they depend on their parents to teach them what is appropriate and what is not in a public area. The onus is NOT on the public at large to deal with your children; it is your responsibility.

[Samwise]

Kids making noise in stores bug me much less than old people taking forever in checkout lines, because I can ignore the kids but I can't shove the old people out of the way.  Which is why I'm going to celebrate my 50th birthday by giving myself a Viking funeral.

[Abagadro]

How you do it is up to you. All I am asking is that you don't do it in public. Take them outside, or to the car, or into a bathroom, or whathaveyou.

I believed you just proved my point. Thanks.

[HaemishM]

To all the experts: please let me know the concrete steps of the successful "discipline" of which you speak.   I don't want generalities. Tell me what to do.

I didn't realize I was being asked for specific disciplinary actions. Since I don't have children, only the dog, I probably don't have anything specific to tell you. I was dealing in generalities.

But I suppose it starts by teaching the child the word "No." And then teaching that the word "No" coming from Mommy or Daddy has consequences behind it. Start small with removing rewards such as "a timeout." Nose in the corner, not being able to play with favorite toys, etc. If the child decides to escalate it into crying fits, let them cry it out for a minute or two without rewarding them. Keep in mind, this is in private before you are ever taking the child in public much, and after they start to understand language. Let them cry for hours at a time if they so wish. Eventually they'll get tired of it. If you feel they've reached the point where even letting them exhaust themselves won't teach them the lesson, a good spanking never hurt anyone. Note, I said spanking, not beating a child.

I've seen it work with kids who only need a stern word from their parents to calm the fuck down in a store. But not every parent can do it, or will do it. And I may not be able to do it either.

[Rasix]

Two things to consider from some limited experience:

1) Kids are not miniature adults.  Logic, reason, cause/effect doesn't always work with them.

2) Kids don't run on scripts.  A "No" given certain circumstances might work some hour, the next hour the same "No" will trigger a nuclear meltdown of epic proportions.

[AcidCat]

Yes, it is called being in public, and there is a decorum to be maintained. I don't go in the store in my boxers, or scream obscenities at random passersby, or soil myself just to see the reaction of other people. Kids don't understand most of this, so they depend on their parents to teach them what is appropriate and what is not in a public area. The onus is NOT on the public at large to deal with your children; it is your responsibility.

Part of the fun of being a kid is you don't have to be a part of polite society, you can act like a little monkey on crack and get away with it to an extent. Whether you see some kid running around a cart in circles laughing or pounding on the ground crying, you're not really "dealing with it" in any other way than observing a spectacle ... which could even be considered amusing.

Anyway, I'm not defending kids acting like demons and parents doing nothing, I feel quite the opposite, you just come off a bit "judgemental old man" on the subject. Even kids with fairly strict parents doing their best are going to have their moments of insanity.