I went to Legoland, or: Why I have no hope for today's youth.

[Shockeye]

There were many children from many different countries at Legoland this past weekend. No matter what language they spoke they all understood one simple fact: whoever builds the biggest gun out of Legos wins. That's right. With all the wonderful things you can build with Legos, they only thing children want to build is guns.

Also, I counted at least 135151454164 children between the ages of 6 and 10 giving "the shocker" to the camera on rides.

[Xilren's Twin]

That's purely b/c building a gun out of lego's is infinitely easier than a really cool spaceship, transforming robot, or dragon, and a lego sword is a flismy creation that breaks in 1 hit.  In terms of childhood competition, this is known as survival of the fittest.

Hell, most 4 year old knew this lesson with duplo blocks; where have you been?

Xilren

[Soukyan]

...where have you been?

I know where I've been and where I will be. Not having children... ever.

My fiancee and I both agree on this. Waste of time, money and effort.

IMO. A lot of people will disagree and some will say that if I had a child I would understand. Well, the closest I came to that was dating a woman through the end of her pregnancy and beginnings of her newborn's life and I can honestly say, it didn't make me feel that emotion that is always described to me by parents. *shrug* Perhaps it's not so much a feeling as justification and denial when the parents realize how much of their lives they are about to throw away because of the little Lego gun building hairless ape spawn. ;)

[Samwise]

Well, the closest I came to that was dating a woman through the end of her pregnancy and beginnings of her newborn's life

I don't have any kids, but I strongly suspect that dating a parent is very different from being a parent.  It seems like you'd get most of the the hassle without any of the rewards.

[Fargull]

Some people are not parent material, hell probably more than a fair share, and there is nothing wrong with that as long as they don't become parents.  I never thought I would like being a parent, but I would not trade anything for my son.

[Llava]

As long as weapons and conflict are glorified in kids' programming, you can expect this behavior.  I'm not sure I'd say it's unhealthy.  It looks disturbing to see kids pretending to kill one another, but their minds just aren't developed enough to completely understand what they're doing.  To them, it's innocent fun and competition.  Plus it'll help keep the xXx franchise in business when they grow up.  I don't want to imagine what kind of world we'd be living in had xXx never seen the light of day.

I mean... the Vin Diesel site might not even have started.  <shudder>

[Xilren's Twin]

There were many children from many different countries at Legoland this past weekend. No matter what language they spoke they all understood one simple fact: whoever builds the biggest gun out of Legos wins. That's right. With all the wonderful things you can build with Legos, they only thing children want to build is guns.

Fine, then a semi-serious reply too. :)

Lego's are great fun and between my two boys plus the lego's my mother saved from when I was a child (bless her little packrat heart) I have approx 1 google's worth of lego block at home.  And they get used often.  When we build it's always some fantastical spaceship, dragster, robot, castle stuff because the rule of lego's is, you follow the included instructs to build the playset on the box one time, then it's a brick flying free for all of creation.  We even have the lego board game.

However, I have also had my kids a varous amusment park that have lego creation stations, and without fail, the kids there ARE doing what shockeye described.  I think it mainly has to do with time and oppotunity.  Most of these public lego stations just dont have enough worthwhile pieces to build neat stuff with (lucky if you can find enough wheels to make 1 car, let alone race more than one), plus building takes time. 

Building a lego gun can be done from almost any combination of pieces, and is very quick so it lets the kids get to playing with their friends they made 20 seconds ago.

It's sort of the equivalent of an "instant-action" button for legos.  I doubt it has much carry over b/c lets' face it, at home, probaly 90% of those kids have much cooler toy guns than ones you can make out of lego's anyway.  So, I wouldn't weep for humanity over this; I more impressed enough parents would take their kids to a legoland rather than dropping them off at the closest chuck-e-cheese asylum.

Xilren

[Roac]

IMO. A lot of people will disagree and some will say that if I had a child I would understand. Well, the closest I came to that was dating a woman through the end of her pregnancy and beginnings of her newborn's life and I can honestly say, it didn't make me feel that emotion that is always described to me by parents.

You missed your own point.  If you have a child you'd understand.  Watching someone else have a child doesn't give near... well, any of the same effect. 

Perhaps it's not so much a feeling as justification and denial when the parents realize how much of their lives they are about to throw away

As opposed to throwing away their lives on message board posting or playing video games?  If you are an inheritly selfish person - and if you judge life's value in terms of money you might be - then no, children aren't worthwhile.  Between daycare, food, toys, utilities, etc you will spend as much as a house on each one.  Literally. 

If you're someone who cares about forming relationships with people for their sake, then nothing beats being a parent.  Nothing else will make your day as much as walking into a room and seeing your son or daughter smile when you enter.  Nothing else will be as deep a personal challenge as trying to set an example for them to follow. 

As far as making guns out of Legos - Legos are predominately played with by boys who love all things war.  If it's not guns, it's spaceships with lasercannons; if not that, it's tanks.  if not that, they're cars that habitually crash into one another.  Or if they're sissy, it's a Harry Potter wand to zap imaginary friends.  My step-father has told me about making models as a kid only to torch them with a magnifying glass or firecrackers.  If you get right down to it, team sports are ritualized warfare.  What's new here?

[Merusk]

I'll agree with Roac on the 'if it ain't yours, you don't understand,' thing.  You had not connection to the kid, only to it's mother, Soyukan.

Kids are an effort, but one that's damn well worth it, imo.  If you can't see it and don't want it, I'm all for the government-funded (voluntary) sterilization of those who say they don't and won't ever want it.  I'll keep my opinion of them to myself, but if you really don't want parenthood, back it up with more than words.  The world has enough unwanted kids, so do your part to make sure you don't contribute.

To the dedicated non-parents, good on ya, it's your choice. Wether you think it's a 'waste' or you 'just hate kids,' I don't care.  Just stay the hell out of the 'family' restaurants, or quit yer bitchin' when you go there.  Nothing irks me more than hearing the stories from my sister the waitress about the prissy DINKs start looking down their noses at the parents dealing with kids at someplace whose ambiance is the level of Friday's or The Cooker.  Still worse are the ones brave enough to ask her to say something, but lacking the balls to do it themselves.  "Oh shit, kids. Wah."

While I'm ranting, fuck y'all who think you shouldn't have to pay school taxes because you don't have kids.  It's called socieital responsibility.  You'll bitch soon enough about the idocy of America, but you'll be damed if you have to tote any part of that burden.  Does that mean if I'm not a jackass and don't burn down my house, get the cops called on me, or get into an accident I don't have to pay for the Cops, Fire Department, or Hospitals? No, because I'm not a flaming douchebag.

[Shockeye]

Building a lego gun can be done from almost any combination of pieces, and is very quick so it lets the kids get to playing with their friends they made 20 seconds ago.

It's sort of the equivalent of an "instant-action" button for legos.  I doubt it has much carry over b/c lets' face it, at home, probaly 90% of those kids have much cooler toy guns than ones you can make out of lego's anyway.  So, I wouldn't weep for humanity over this; I more impressed enough parents would take their kids to a legoland rather than dropping them off at the closest chuck-e-cheese asylum.

I'm sure somewhere Chuck Heston is rubbing his hands with glee.

Why do children feel the need to connect with each other by pointing guns at them?

[Abagadro]

My fiancee and I both agree on this. Waste of time, money and effort.

Heh, wait until she is around 33. She will sing a different tune. I guarantee it.

BTW, I was never in to the "having a kid thing" before I had mine, but it is pretty damn cool.

[Jain Zar]

I respect folks' rights to have kids.  Respect my right to not have them nor to put up with them beyond basic understanding that kids are kids and good parents put much of their resources towards their wellbeing.  Hence the whole good parents thing.  Good parents might take their kids to a Pixar flick and hush them if they get too noisy.  Bad ones take them to a horror film and no nothing when they run up and down the aisle screaming bloody murder.

A kid throwing a ball through a department store that hits me in the head?  No big.  Ill probably even hand it back to the little tyke.  A kid throwing a giant wailing fit and the parent doing little more than blind screaming or ignoring their child?  AW HELL NAW!

[stray]

Why do children feel the need to connect with each other by pointing guns at them?

Do you really need an answer to this?

In short: Children are not idealists. They're just....Human.

[Fargull]

Why do children feel the need to connect with each other by pointing guns at them?

What was the first really active, non-sport game you played as a kid?  Mine was cowboys and indians, except on my side we pointed bows...  This was in the early seventies, I also remember the best birthday gift I got was a red rider bb gun and the use of which no eyes were shot out.  We are animals, rational thinking animals, but we are just a few short steps from the beast.

[Joe]

I'm sure somewhere Chuck Heston is rubbing his hands with glee.

Why do children feel the need to connect with each other by pointing guns at them?

I think you're reading far too deeply into this. Bear in mind, dude, you more than likely played guns, too. You turned out fine.

Fact is, toy guns are just long range versions of tag for kids. As they grow up, it's up to the parents to teach them what guns really do, and why it's not ok to repeat what they see in movies and games.

[Daydreamer]

Fact is, toy guns are just long range versions of tag for kids. As they grow up, it's up to the parents to teach them what guns really do, and why it's not ok to repeat what they see in movies and games.

Exactly.  My little brother and I used to run around department stores doing exactly this when we got dragged along.  We both loved it then, we both love violent games now, and both of us are (or in my case was now that I graduated) successful students with no behavoral problems beyond staying up past curfew.

[Soukyan]

My fiancee and I both agree on this. Waste of time, money and effort.

Heh, wait until she is around 33. She will sing a different tune. I guarantee it.

BTW, I was never in to the "having a kid thing" before I had mine, but it is pretty damn cool.

Heh. I knew I'd stir up trouble with my sentiments.

Yes, you are right, Roac, posting on message boards (and playing games, which I haven't done for almost a year now and probably will never have time to do so again) is a waste of time. But I chose to reply to something for which I had an opinion, as you did. It's called choice. Not to mention that it didn't waste 18 years of my life. ;)

Yes, Roac, I am an inherently selfish person when it comes to whether I wish to share my time and life raising a child. As to the woman whom I dated whose child was not mine, I may not have shared the joy, but I was certainly getting up at all hours to help feed/change the diaper/entertain the child. I do realize now that the child must be your own to understand the "joy". Honestly the whole process just doesn't strike me as it does others. I do not find child development to be all that profound. And I don't measure life by a monetary value. When I walk into the room and see my fiancee smile at me, nothing feels better. I feel a love for her that is beyond description. I don't need a child to feel that. I am fulfilled. Ah, well. We're all entitled to feel how we wish about life.


Merusk, I may not understand because it wasn't my child, but I was helping out so I at least understand the work part of the early months of a baby's life. As to sterilization, the mother of six on welfare who cannot support even herself is more of a prime candidate for sterilization than someone like myself who is a responsible contributor to society. I'm all for paying school taxes in an effort to help educate children to not end up in the same situation as a parent who is living off the dole and running up medical bills for which they'll never be able to pay. But then again, I believe in responsibility and, the big one that people love to dodge in this country, accountability. There are a lot of members of our society who want to act irresponsibly and then not be held accountable, but who will shout out that it is our societal responsibility to support them. And don't suggest that people can't overcome adversity. We all make decisions and there are a lot of people who can overcome, but they need to put forth the effort to do so. I'm lucky to have had a good life thus far and am certainly blessed to have had the opportunities in my life and I only wish that others could have the same, but I also realize that my fiancee had things much, much harder and has overcome huge obstacles to surpass me and my accomplishments. I think that sometimes a life more challenged can make one more determined. But I digress... I don't bitch about children in "family" restaurants. I simply don't eat at them. I do tire of having to deal with children and their antics in situations where a baby-sitter would have been a more proper choice. Or discipline. The problem is that the parents never want to take the child out of a public area when they begin to misbehave because then the parents might have their experience disrupted.
How to clarify...

I'm at a performance at the park and a couple settles in next to us with their child.
After a short while, the child gets restless, starts to ask his parents when they can leave.
Parents respond, "In a little while."
Child accepts this and waits for another few minutes before asking again, this time adding that he is bored.
Parents offer yet another delay tactic.
Child begins to sing and attempts to entertain himself, beginning to disrupt those around him.
Parents blatantly ignore him.
This goes on for some time with the child getting more out of hand.
Etc. etc. etc.

I don't have to go on because I think you realize that at this point, responsible parents would leave and take their disruptive child with them. But no, instead, I had to move in order to continue hearing the performance without interruption. I'm not suggesting that adults don't interrupt either, but you see my point. A lot of parents that I encounter with children do not want to interrupt their own fun because their child is causing a stir. They refuse to be accountable for having a child and having to deal with the inevitable interruptions that come with it. I am not sympathetic to this behavior because I realize what having a child entails and I choose not to do so. It's called making a responsible and informed (if somewhat selfish, as well - but hey, I'm the one who won't have anyone to take care of me when I'm older ;) decision.


Abagadro, we're both in our late 20's now so 33 isn't all that far off, but with her, I can say with certainty that the tune will not change. She and I are very much in tune on the issue of children. If you do turn out to be right, I'll buy you a bottle of champagne (or another suitable substitute should bubbly not be your thing).

It seems to me that a lot of people here either have children or are planning on having them so I don't expect that many people will agree with me or even see my viewpoint on children very easily. I think children can be a wonderful thing for others and I love to see the joy that people experience with them. I apologize if my initial post came off as crass or uninformed, but the issue of having children is something that I have thought long and hard about for years.

[edit] Corrected the spelling of "new" to "knew"[/edit]

[Roac]

It seems to me that a lot of people here either have children or are planning on having them so I don't expect that many people will agree with me or even see my viewpoint on children very easily.

To the contrary, I think most people understand your view very well, at least and especially men.  No one I know anyway was ever interested in child development or being a parent - until they became one.  I'll second Ab's sentiment.  Being a parent is just one of those things I don't think you can get until you are one, and is sort of like trying to explain sex to a thirty year old virgin.  I don't think the annoying part is that you don't want children - if that's what you want, that's what you want, so have at it.  It's more like thing such as; The problem is that the parents never want to take the child out of a public area when they begin to misbehave...  Never?  Then followed with how the parents waste their time being such, and apparently yours as well.

[Bunk]

Well, i can't quite interpret Roac's last sentance there, but I have to say my sentiments tend to echo Soukyan's.

I have a ton of respect for responsible parents. Unfortunately, many parents I know don't fall under that responsible category, but i don't really want to get in to that. Lets just say I'm not a supporter of the "Its my right to have children" stance.

I'm 34 and not currently involved with anyone. I really have no interest in having children at this point in my life, and considering my age, will likely never have them. My sister is younger than me, and I do hope she has kids some day. Why? Purely selfish reasons. I can honestly say that it would be great to have a nephew or niece to bond with, yet not have the majorly disrupting responsibility for.

Does this make me a bad person? I don't think so. I would personally never want to have a child unless I was in a position financially and emotionally to give that child a great life. I'm not there by my standards. It bothers me that many people have much lower standards for this.

[HaemishM]

I respect people who consciously make the decision not to have children just because they can. The last thing we need as a society are more people with children who really don't care if they have them or not. I intend on having kids, but I'm responsible enough now to know that right now is not the time to have them. I'm not ready, and doing so before I'm ready will cause myself and the child harm.

As for disruptive children, I've had my fill of them. When I worked in retail, I saw so many spoiled ass kids who got no discipline from their parents. Children writhing around on the floor with their mother standing over them, all because they didn't get the toy or book they wanted. That's irresponsible parenting. Tantrums will happen with children, but they quickly need to learn that not only will the tantrum not get them what they want, it will get them negative attention from the parent. The ones who just stand there and ignore it in the middle of the store? Fuck them. Pick your kid up, take him out of the store and either spank him or toss him in the car and let him screech his little head off away from the attention of others. Same goes for restaurants.

Movie theaters? There are parents in movie theaters I want to bludgeon to death with my rigid cock. I once saw a mother with 4 kids, not a goddamn one of those kids over the age of 10, in a movie. The movie? SEVEN. Yeah, THAT movie, with the gore and violence and twisted, fucked up shit. Sorry, if you can't get a babysitter, you don't need to see that movie. Not only were they disrupted, afterwards all of the kids walked out of the theater SCREECHING IN TERROR. I cannot imagine the thought process that arrived at Seven being a proper movie for kids that age to see. As a parent, if you bring your child to a movie, or performance, or just in public, you better be responsible for making sure he's not a disruption to everyone around him. No, the kid's not an adult and he will get bored with things easily; if that's the case, be responsible for making sure his boredom doesn't cause other people problems.

Kids aren't robots, and you shouldn't expect them to be, but in polite society, they'd better be taught to act politely, instead of like the douchebags some people insist on being.

[Xilren's Twin]

Heh. I new I'd stir up trouble with my sentiments.

Heh.  Stir up trouble? Yes and no; while I doubt you'll find another single subject that hits people hot buttom more quickly talking about parents and their children, no one is frothing at the mouth about it yet :)

Yes, Roac, I am an inherently selfish person when it comes to whether I wish to share my time and life raising a child. As to the woman whom I dated whose child was not mine, I may not have shared the joy, but I was certainly getting up at all hours to help feed/change the diaper/entertain the child. I do realize now that the child must be your own to understand the "joy". Honestly the whole process just doesn't strike me as it does others. I do not find child development to be all that profound. And I don't measure life by a monetary value. When I walk into the room and see my fiancee smile at me, nothing feels better. I feel a love for her that is beyond description. I don't need a child to feel that. I am fulfilled. Ah, well. We're all entitled to feel how we wish about life.

The only point I want to add was right here, and a lot of this may sound like idealism (lord knows there are tons of bad parents and we get more daily).  I apoogize in advance for the length but it's a hard subject to put into words.  Warning warning, long rambling post ahead...

Having a child is profoundly different from loving your significant other in this way.  Good parenting is totally, and i mean totally, focused on another person, the child.  Marriage is not.  As much as I love my wife and enjoy being with her, I also know she's an adult who can take care of herself and she has never been (and barring some disaster) never will be, in the same position relative to me that our children are.

Raising a child is a far far different experience than loving another adult.  For the first years of a child life, they are basically helpless and totally dependent on you for everything.  So your actions, attitudes and worldview changes significantly.  You not longer approach decisions on what to do from a sense of enlightened self interest; you put anothers needs as the primary motivating factorfor everything you do.  That's why you get up 4 times a night for feedings and changing, that's why you pace the floor the first time your child is sick, that's why the first few night you have your first baby home from the hospital you wake up anytime the child even moves, coughs, makes a sound in their bassinet just to make sure they are ok.  You basically forget about yourself.  Why? Love of course.

That's the payoff and the joy; kids love YOU unconditionally.  The first ~4 years of childs life are a huge change in your lifestyle, but seeing you childs face light up when the simply hear your voice is amazing; your financee's smile is but a pale shadow of this though I know you wont believe me.  Watching a child learn and grow and experience all of life for the first time is amazing.  You discover alot about yourself too.  Children are in some ways an imperfect mirror of you and your wife; you get back from them what you put into them, but they also aren't little adults.

I know you know part of this b/c you helped do it for someone else child, but I think you missed out of the why of it. If you had stayed with that woman and her child, and you had wanted to, you could have had the childs love unconditionally, even if you didn;'t love the child.  I'm not saying you should have, but the child would have given it to you and that's a gift.

Don't take any of this personally, but I wonder, did you do those things you b/c you actually cared about the child, or simply b/c you cared about the mother?  Did you ever resent the impinging on your sleep time to care for this squalling lillte wizend human who's loud, smelly, doesn;t know night is for sleeping, and is generally not much fun to converse with yet?

There's nothing wrong with you deciding not to have kids; several couples I know have elected to do the same.  That's fine; when in doubt don't do it I'd say.  But I do wonder if they will every look back and regret that decision when they are in their 60s and 70s and realize all the family things they never got to experience because of that.  They are legion.

In some respects, parenting is actually a very specialized form of insanity: you know good and well you are doing something life changing, and may be full of heartache, headache and financial burden.  It really doesnt make sense until you are one, then you can't imagine not being one.  But for me, family is pretty much the why of my existance; why do I work when I could probably slack off and get by on part time junk; to provide a good home and living for THEM, not for me.  My wife does not and cannot give me what my kids do.

I know you love your finance and I wish you all the best.  You may think that the two of you couldn't be any closer than you are in your love right now.  IMHO, you are incorrect; creating a new life together and raising it up would make you closer in a way you aren't today and give you an entirely new set of shared experiences, but that not to say your love is incomplete b/c it isn't.

Having a person whom you love to share your life with is priceless.
Having kids with said is person is simply priceless++.

Xilren
PS One last thing on the "kids in public can be disruptive and their are lots of bad parents".  Yep, plenty of annoying things in their. I see it no different than yuppy "dinks" who think their business is so fricking important they can talk on cell phone anywhere, anytime or 20 something idiots who try to shatter your windows with their "my amps go to 11" pimped out rice burner cars. Public place are just that; you can't turn it off like local chat in an mmorpg.  Deal or stay in you house more. (actually, i suspect people staying at home more and more and a primary option for anything {shopping, movies, music, whatever} is a new prevaling trend but that's a whole nother thread...)

[Pococurante]

BTW, I was never in to the "having a kid thing" before I had mine, but it is pretty damn cool.

Same here.  Had I had my way my eldest would never have been born.  Now, I honestly cannot imagine my life without my three kids.  Good thing the Big Guy upstairs has such a sense of humor.  I've heard it said that a person never grows up and becomes comofrtable with themselves until they both have children and lose their parents.  Having been through both life events now I realize at a very deep level it is completely applicable to me.

That said I completely support Soukyan/SO's decision to never have kids.  Last thing society needs is another family that's not fully onboard the nurturing bandwagon.  It's a shitton of work and the biggest responsibility people can ever take on.  Taking stock of one's personal needs and abilities is absolutely mandatory.

[WayAbvPar]

I once saw a mother with 4 kids, not a goddamn one of those kids over the age of 10, in a movie. The movie? SEVEN.

That movie STILL upsets me. I wonder how much of it the kids really understood? No matters- that should constitute child abuse or neglect. Please tell me you tackled her in the parking lot and sterilized her for the good of mankind?

[Sairon]

While I don't have any kids atm I plan on geting when I'm done with college and have a solid job. Even if I don't really know the feeling of having kids I belive it would add a lot of purpose to life, and something to be proud of when they grow up. It also feels like if you have a kid, a part of you lives on after you're dead.

[Rasix]

I know my wife and I are really looking forward to having children.  She a lot more than I.  I still want to be selfish for a while and in a happier place with my job.  That and right now we simply can't afford it.  Buying an Acura probably set kids plans back at least half a year. 

We've been "training" for the past year by occasionally hosting my nephews for weekends. A 7 year old boy that is deviously smart and a 3 year old boy that only weighs like 10lbs less than his brother and is as willful as any child his age I've ever encountered.  It's very difficult for me to not consider them tiny adults, my wife has a much easier time connecting with them.  Still, we've made it through each weekend without having to fallback on calling their parents.  I usually sleep for a solid day afterwards. 

[Pococurante]

There is never a right time to have kids.  Seriously.  Besides it's the most wild ball of Unexpected you'll ever have - trying to overplan takes all the fun out the process and never does any good anyway.

I love watching young women go through it, starting the wicked control freak and finally tossing it out the window and just taking each day at a time.  Takes guys longer to get up to Acceptance that everything is different but once we get there we tend to get laidback much faster.  Well those of us whose idea of being a man evolved past age twelve... took me twenty more years to change my definition, as shown by my Hedonism score. 

[Soukyan]

Xilren, et al.: Thanks for the great replies. I'm impressed at this community. Seriously. I was fearing the worst and 'lo and behold, nobody became terribly bent out of shape. Thanks for the understanding of my viewpoint and thanks for the honest feedback for those with the experience.

You are right, Xil. The baby girl I helped care for for that short time absolutely loved me. She would light up and reach out for me when I came in the room or when she heard my voice she would look around for me (when she was old enough to do so, of course). She didn't even do that for her father. I felt bad for him, but yes, it did feel great when that happened to me. Mind, it did not give me the fulfillment that you so adequately describe, but I certainly felt something. I think the reason that I did not feel that was because it was not my own child. And yes, once I had thought on it, I decided that having children was not for me. Will I miss out on a lot? Probably. Will I regret it? I certainly hope not. I don't regret things I have done in my life thus far and I hope to die with no regrets. I'm seeking different things in my life, and leftover cash is not one of them. The money that would have been spent on a child will most certainly be spent on other endeavours so it isn't like I'm tied to some green chain of evil. Thanks again everyone. Good discussion.

[Daeven]

I A kid throwing a giant wailing fit and the parent doing little more than blind screaming or ignoring their child?  AW HELL NAW!

Yeah, because, you know, giving in to a three year old throwing a tantrum because it might inconvenience some random blowhard teaches SUCH a good life lesson to the kid. 

[Daeven]

Movie theaters? There are parents in movie theaters I want to bludgeon to death with my rigid cock. I once saw a mother with 4 kids, not a goddamn one of those kids over the age of 10, in a movie. The movie? SEVEN.

OTOH, that's just fucked up right there.

[Polysorbate80]

I usually sleep for a solid day afterwards. 

Heh, don't plan on getting to do that after having one of your own :)    You'll likely be praying for the tot to have a nap just so you can catch a few winks.

Mark me down in the selfish-bastard kid-hating category--until my daughter came along. 

Best. Thing. Ever.

Regarding other people with crying/obnoxious/irritating children, the wife and I have become much, much more tolerant and sympathetic now that we have a two-year old to ride herd on.

[Rasix]

Movie theaters? There are parents in movie theaters I want to bludgeon to death with my rigid cock. I once saw a mother with 4 kids, not a goddamn one of those kids over the age of 10, in a movie. The movie? SEVEN.

OTOH, that's just fucked up right there.

I think I can top that.  Three kids, none of them could have been older than 7 or 8, in the front section of seats for Hannibal.  One kid was wandering down the isles just wailling with tears streaming down his face towards the end.  It made me absolutely furious.  Not for interfering with my movie going experience though (the movie sucked), just for the blatant disregard for their child. 

Now to swing this in different direction:

There is never a right time to have kids.  Seriously. 

Try telling that to my wife.  I try, I really do. She's even got the time frame down when she wants to be pregnant so the baby can have a nice birthday during the school year.  I think sooner or later her desire to have a child will just beat down her desire to control everything and be completely financially stable before diving in.   We cave easily.

[Hanzii]

To the contrary, I think most people understand your view very well, at least and especially men.  No one I know anyway was ever interested in child development or being a parent - until they became one.  I'll second Ab's sentiment.  Being a parent is just one of those things I don't think you can get until you are one, and is sort of like trying to explain sex to a thirty year old virgin.

This And Xilren's post says it all really.
I had no interest in kids. i knew it was sort of expected from marriage, but secretly I was looking for someone like your girlfriend (even though they don't exist... trudt me on this. Talk to me when you're both 33-35 - either you have kids, are desperately trying to have kids... or with other people. She with somebody willing to have kids and you with a 20-something, you think will be diffrent once she reaches 30+).
Then I met a girl. fell in love. After a while she talked about kids, Irealised that I wasn't ready, but at some point I'd either "give in" or loose her. I also knew I would probably be a pretty good father... even if I'd rather be something else, so I said what the heck. I loved her too much to risk loosing her. Now, since I'm not stupid like Haemeihm and lets my wife read this board, I can honestly say, that if the choice ever came between my wife or kids, I'd pick the kids.

The love you feel for a child wont compare to anything you have ever experienced before. Not the love of parents and not the love of a SO. It's something so pure and so primal that it is often scary. There's a pretty simple and depressing reason why the suicide rate for parents that loose their kids is very high.
Me, I totally lost the ability to enjoy shows like E.R., because they always have kids dying from cancer and whatnot... scary stuff, which only touched me in a remote way before but cuts straight to my heart now.

And another thing. babies aren't cute. This is where men and women differ. We just had our second, and all our female friends says stuff like, "remember to enjoy this special time, they grow up so quickly..." While men - in secret, the wives mustn't hear - say "You'll get through it and get to the fun part soon..."
You still love the babies like nothing else, but it's when they start communicating they become fun to be around, and it's ok to feel that way. But the first time your kid says "I love you dad" and you know it's the most true thing they have ever felt or expressed, you'll never feel the same again.
And being a parent is just full of those experiences. Just ask me how I felt, when I lost our 4 year old for an hour...

[Shockeye]

When it comes to children, they have a way of destroying any kind of control you thought you had.

Or, to sum up: My children conspire against me.

[Hanzii]

There is never a right time to have kids.  Seriously. 

Try telling that to my wife.  I try, I really do. She's even got the time frame down when she wants to be pregnant so the baby can have a nice birthday during the school year.  I think sooner or later her desire to have a child will just beat down her desire to control everything and be completely financially stable before diving in.   We cave easily.

We tried to plan it around my carreer... and waited too long. The first one came pretty easy. The second took 3 years and a lot of frustration and money (and this in a country where healthcare picks up most of the tab). My one advice would be, don't wait and plan too long. Or aprents started having kids when they were 18-20 - we're not built to wait (and every generation is getting less fertile as well). Get cracking - for God and country.

[Abagadro]

I hope no one took my comments in a derogatory manner as they certainly weren't meant that way. If you aren't into kids, that's cool. I certainly wasn't. Just saying that now that I have one I am having a lot of fun (with the added ingrediant of terror!) being a dad. 

Soukyan. I will certainly take you up on your bubbly wager. I can hear the biological clock ticking from here. I prefer Krug Brut Vintage but will settle for some Krug Grand Cuvee.  :-D