Revolution not supporting HDTV.

[Fabricated]

http://www.neoseeker.com/news/story/4694/

Way to not fucking get it Nintendo. Jesus.

[schild]

I saw that the other day. I was too dumbfounded to post it.

[HaemishM]

Wow, how retarded.

I'm not saying that not having HD support is bad because "everyone" will have HD. I'm just saying that not having a feature that your competition is heavily marketing as important is stupid. Really, really stupid.

[Paelos]

Calling this product the Revolution is going to spawn so many puns...

The mind boggles.

[Yegolev]

Hopefully it will at least support 480p.  Otherwise I'll have to buy a plane ticket to Kyoto....

[Alluvian]

I am mostly confused because the GAMECUBE supports high def.  You have to buy the stupid cable mail order, but it supports it.  Metroid prime widescreen high def is great I hear.

I don't have the high def cable yet (out of TV inputs and too cheap for a high def splitter), but the gamecube has better support for widescreen in first party titles than the Xbox seems to have.  Windwaker, pikmin2, metroid prime 1 and 2, mario party 6, double dash... all those support widescreen.  On my xbox... um... panzer dragoon oorta and ninja gaiden are the only games I have that do.  Many sites CLAIM that espn2k5 does, but it does NOT, there is distortion when in 16:9.  It would be a no brainer for crimson skies and mechassault to support widescreen but they do not.  Both are distored in widescreen (although they still look okay to me usually, they do not support it).


Pretty sad that the rev will be a step BACK on some games.  I don't mind too much, I generally prefer widescreen to hd if it is a choice of one or the other.  Both is preferable of course.

[Yegolev]

I am mostly confused because the GAMECUBE supports high def.

Cube supports "progressive scan" only.  480p at best, definitely not 1080.  The term "HD" means "1080i/p".

[Shockeye]

I am mostly confused because the GAMECUBE supports high def.

Cube supports "progressive scan" only.  480p at best, definitely not 1080.  The term "HD" means "1080i/p".

I can't say I really care one way or the other if the Revoluton supports 1080i/p. It's still going to be years before Joe Sixpack has a HDTV.

[Alluvian]

Doesn't HD also include 720p?  I see 720p listed as hd all the time.  It is only very recently that consumer level tvs even supported 1080p.

Edit: and my source was apparently smoking weed.  I know that 480p is not HD (just dvd quality) but I was led to believe that GC had some 720p games, but since I still only have stock composite output on it I was never able to verify personally (and didn't bother to google search it out)

[Paelos]

Doesn't HD also include 720p?  I see 720p listed as hd all the time.  It is only very recently that consumer level tvs even supported 1080p.

Edit: and my source was apparently smoking weed.  I know that 480p is not HD (just dvd quality) but I was led to believe that GC had some 720p games, but since I still only have stock composite output on it I was never able to verify personally (and didn't bother to google search it out)

I'd like to take this moment and ask someone about these numbers. What do they mean? What's the difference? Can you explain it in layman's terms. Thanks. I feel this way about speakers too.

[Shockeye]

I feel this way about speakers too.

          OK.  You're lookin' for
          some REEEEEEALLY HOT
          speakers right?  Not just
          somethin' you listen to,
          but something you can
          feeeeeeel, right?
         
          When it comes to a great
          stereo you can't beat
          B I G   S P E A K E R S.
          I'm talking big speakers
          with big woofers.  Like this...
          You could get this speaker
          with a little eight inch woofer,
          or this one with a ten inch woofer.
          OR even this one with a
          twelve inch woofer.  BUT I can
          see by the look on your face you
          want somethin' even bigger!

          The flagship of the Definator
          line.  The PB-0002, I have a
          pair of these myself. 
          THIRTY INCHES of thigh
          slappin', blood pumpin',
          nuclear brain damage!!!

          Who cares if it's as big as
          Subaru and costs twice
          as much, you'll never
          have to upgrade it and
          when you die you can
          be buried in 'em!!!

[Yegolev]

I think ED or Enhanced Def is 480, not sure what 720 is.  A DVD player outputs in 480p, I seem to remember.  HD is actually 1080 and 16:9 per the actual specification.  480p is the low-water-mark here.

San Andreas on the PS2 does 16:9 across the digital cable, and prog scan at what I assume is 480 resolution.  I have not researched it since I'm at whatever the ceiling is for the machine.  The Cube doesn't tell me what resolution, either, only that it is prog scan... so I am assuming 480.

At least some Game Boy games will not display in prog scan mode when run from the GCGBP.

The Urbz claims to do 720p, but something between my Xbox and TV chokes at that setting.  Probably the out-of-production Denon receiver.  Since it is The Urbz, I have not spent much time looking into it.

You are making me sound like I know a lot about A/V, and I don't want to give that impression.

[Alluvian]

The number is the amount of horizontal lines of resolution.  The i is for interlaced, the p is progressive scan.

Interlaced means that each drawing of the screen is alternating odd and even horizontal lines.  So that during certain camera pans you can actually see the odd and even lines separate as they are always one frame/update apart.

Progressive draws all lines on every screen update.

DVDs are 480p for instance.  That means they have 480 vertical lines, and data for all lines in each frame.  Your dvd player could be 480p or 480i.  Progressive scan is definately better, I can pretty easily see the difference on a camera pan.  Xbox dvd playback is in 480i for some stupid reason involving licensing.... a hacked xbox can do progressive for dvds so it is not a hardware issue.

Hope that helps, and hope it is accurate.  I only recently learned the same stuff.  I still know nothing about speakers, heh.

[Miasma]

While we're asking HDTV type questions, could someone elaborate on this:

Be sure to get the HDMI-interface TV so they can use the pirate-block on you.

How would this work?  I only buy legitimate DVDs and games but at some point I would like to make my own DVD compilations of TV shows and such.  If this blocks any DVD without some sort of anti-pirate flag I wouldn't be able to do that.

[Yegolev]

While component video cables only transmit video, HDMI transmits digital audio and "other" data like copyright shit.

[Paelos]

Thanks that helps. P is better than I and the higher numbers mean better stuff. Now all I need to figure out is bang for the buck. How much better are the higher number in comparison? Is it worth a price bump?

[Nija]

San Andreas on the PS2 does 16:9 across the digital cable, and prog scan at what I assume is 480 resolution.  I have not researched it since I'm at whatever the ceiling is for the machine.  The Cube doesn't tell me what resolution, either, only that it is prog scan... so I am assuming 480.

I am just nitpicking, but I was pretty upset at the fact that San Andreas does NOT support 480p on the ps2. It does do 480p on the xbox, though.

They have no excuse to not use 480p on the ps2. It's just lazyness and "not caring" because apparenly joe 6pack will buy it anyhow.

and the 1080i that GT4 uses isn't "real" 1080i, but it's taking a 480p signal and using it to display 960 interlaced lines. So it has the same overhead as 480p, but is actually broadcast at 1080i (if that makes sense)

quick and dirty:

1080i = 1920x1080, interlaced. one pass it displays the odd lines, the next pass it displays even ones.
1080p = 1920x1080, progressive. displays both even and odd lines in one pass. Looks amazing. You could hook up a PC to a tv that does 1080p and it would look incredible.

720p = 1280x720, progressive. This is what most "HTPC"s use. There is no interlaced variant, and I'm not sure why. Looks great. Just think of it like playing your favorite computer game at 1024x768, but on a 48" tv. If you have a fry's nearby, and you see those plasma screens there showing ut2k4, this is the resolution they're using.

480i= normal tv
480p= progressive normal tv. biggest difference in video games is text readability and flicker, or lack of flicker.

If you are planning on buying a tv that will last for awhile, I'd pick up something that did 720p, 1080i, AND 1080p. There aren't too many on the market yet that do 1080p, but I'm sure youll get some use out of it further down the road. My tv is nearly 3 years old, a 48" mitsubishi, and it does 1080i, but no 720p. 480i/p is a given.

If you want something soon, just make sure it does 720p. I plan on upgrading when 1080p gets affordable.

[ajax34i]

Thanks that helps. P is better than I and the higher numbers mean better stuff. Now all I need to figure out is bang for the buck. How much better are the higher number in comparison? Is it worth a price bump?

It's just like computer monitors.  The bigger the monitor is in size, the higher the resolution you want on it, so that things are nicely sized and not blocky.  You could take a 15" monitor to 1280x1024 but then fonts would be too small to read.  You could keep a 21" at 640x480 but then everything is big, blocky, and pixelated.

For HDTV, the bigger the thing is, the higher the resolution you want, so that sitting next to it playing games, things look smooth and nice.

[Yegolev]

If you are going to get a huge TV, go ahead and drop some cash on a wireless controller and sit ten or twenty feet back.  Get off that beanbag.

[squirrel]

I am mostly confused because the GAMECUBE supports high def.

Cube supports "progressive scan" only.  480p at best, definitely not 1080.  The term "HD" means "1080i/p".

Nope. HD means 720p, 1080i. 1080p is actually not currently part of the 'accepted' HD standard although it certainly will be soon but few broadcasters will use it due to bandwidth. HD signals aren't free.

"High-Definition Television. The high-resolution subset of our DTV system. The FCC has no official definition for HDTV. The ATSC defines HDTV as a 16:9 image with twice the horizontal and vertical resolution of our existing system, accompanied by 5.1 channels of Dolby Digital audio. The CEA defines HDTV as an image with 720 progressive or 1080 interlaced active (top to bottom) scan lines. 1280:720p and 1920:1080i are typically accepted as high-definition scan rates" The latter is generally what people mean referring to HD.

This is why many lower end plasma's are called HD "ready" which is marketing Bullshit for EDTV - extended definition. They downsample 720p signals to their own resolution which is higher than 480p but lower than 720p (often 1024 x 768 or even 8xx x 5xx) .

EDIT: To those who are thinking about buying an HD set - do a lot of research. http://www.avsforum.com is one of the most respected sources of consumer knowledge in this arena. Bigger is not always better - for instance 1080p - WOW that must be way better than 1080i right? Well yes, but what are you going to watch? The vast majority of HD broadcasts - both OTA and Cable - are 720p. The rest are 1080i. Very few broadcasters have endorsed the 1080p standard due to the increased bandwidth issue, not just on the cable infrastructure but on the digital channel spectrum they have access to by license. Personally i wouldn't buy a 1080p set right now - even BlueRay will have a hard time feeding one. Better to look at the 1080i/720p DLP's/LCD's/Plasmas. That's where the sweet spot is IMO.

EDIT2: A kickass PC hooked to a 1080p TV would be a valid use today and would look STELLAR. Big $$$ but that would be rocking.

[Yegolev]

Lots of informed commentary.

Suppose I were not sure I wanted a CRT, LCD or plasma...?  I'm actually getting quite irritated with my PC monitor, not my TV, but I'll sponge up any info you have.

[AOFanboi]

Nope. HD means 720p, 1080i. 1080p is actually not currently part of the 'accepted' HD standard although it certainly will be soon but few broadcasters will use it due to bandwidth. HD signals aren't free.

Is that also the reason the PS3 (apparently) will support 1080p while the X360 "stops" at 1080i? Sony can ensure their PS3 console works with their own HDTV sets - Microsoft does not have such an advantage.

Getting back to the Revolution: I think Nintendo are targeting a different (read: non-geeky) market that does not buy a HDTV set before they have to. Plus, higher resolution graphics do not alone a better game make. But very little is known about what it actually will do - except for the backwards compatibility. You do not need HDTV to play the SNES version of Mario Kart for instance.

[Shockeye]

If you have a Costco membership, they have a decent 30" Widescreen CRT HDTV for ~$600. I know schild uses one and loves it.

[AcidCat]

Personally i wouldn't buy a 1080p set right now - even BlueRay will have a hard time feeding one. Better to look at the 1080i/720p DLP's/LCD's/Plasmas. That's where the sweet spot is IMO.

Agreed, unless you really have money to burn and must early-adopt every new tech, a 1080p TV is overkill for any source you're going to hook up to it. I suppose PS3 might support 1080p, but I wonder how many games are going to go the extra mile to code for this when its going to be such a small percentage of HDTV owners that will take advantage of it.

If you're looking for a new HDTV for the new consoles I'd say a set with a native 720p display is your best bet right now.

[squirrel]

Lots of informed commentary.

Suppose I were not sure I wanted a CRT, LCD or plasma...?  I'm actually getting quite irritated with my PC monitor, not my TV, but I'll sponge up any info you have.

Heh, Mac vs. Pc debates looks tame compared to the religious fervor of TV fanbois. Basically $ for $ your best bets are LCD projection or DLP projection. These sets physically are similar to the old school CRT projection but much lighter, digital and use either a LCD panel or a TI Colour Wheel to project a picture. I'll summarize what i learned basically around these below, highly suggest researching on avs forums for in-depth info - thousands of HDTV owners of every kind of set and the benefits and problems of each.

DLP - I'm a big fan of DLP (i own a samsung 56" Tantus DLP) Digital Light Processing is the technology used by Digital projection theaters and is built by TI. It's essentially a colour wheel with 5 - 7 colours than spins at very high revolutions and is screened by a mirror to create pixels. It's complicated and one of the drawbacks is the moving parts (i've had to have the light engine/wheel assembly on mine replaced once under warranty.) Manufacturers of note - Samsung, Loewe, Toshiba, Mitsubishi, JVC

DLP Benefits:
* Near true blacks (contrast ratio) - not as good as CRT tubes but very good
* Brilliant colour fidelity
* No burn in (no phospors, screen is simply plastic or glass)
* Very sharp picture (some see this as a drawback, oversharpened image)
* Inexpensive

DLP Drawbacks:
* Rainbow effect - this is an odd effect that occurs when a bright object is on a dark background, generally moving. The eye catches the wheel colours and creates a mild rainbow halo around the object. Not all people see this, some do and it causes headaches in a small % of people.
* Not TRUE blacks. Some light always gets through reducing the black point.
* Moving parts in the TV

LCD Rear Projection. Essentially a transparent LCD panel that is projected onto a screen. Manufacturers of note - Sony, Hitachi

Benefits:
* Minimal artifacting (rainbows, jaggies)
* Stable technology, no moving parts
* High res (sony's first 1080p set was LCD RP)
* Inexpensive

Drawbacks
* Bad blacks and white crush. Any image with significant shadow or highlight areas (+/-DMAX) is lost. The LCD panel has the worst blacks and whites due to it's transparency.
* Screen door effect. Some people complain they see a 'screen' door where a fine black line appears between the pixels. I had a Hitachi 50V500 for a couple weeks and i never saw this.
* Colour crush. Sony LCD RP's display red crush (bluish hue) Hitachi's display blue crush (red hue). Requires professional calibration to correct.

LCD Direct View - similar to an LCD monitor. Many manufacturers.

Benefits
* Excellent picture, true blacks, great colour fidelity.
* Light small and thin
* High Resolution (1080p) available

Drawbacks
* Small. Anything in the 40"+ range is very $$$, a pretty major limitation in HD home theater

Plasma - hard to explain as i don't really know how it works. Essentially fixed pixels filled with gas that respond to electrical charges. All high end manufacturers make plasma - Phillips, Panasonic, Sony, Samsung, Toshiba, JVC

Benefits
* Awesome picture. True blacks, brilliant colour. Equal to or superior to high end CRT.
* Light weight, thin and available in large formats (50"+)

Drawbacks
* Lower resolution per dollar. 720p+ sets are more than their DLP/LCD RP equivalents.
* Burn in. Some people complain of burn in when using plasma with PC's/consoles.
* Longevity. Early Plasma's are failing now creating concern over the technologies longevity.

Common issues - you want a number of things regardless which type of T.V. you buy:

* HDMI DVI port. THis will be key in the future for viewing copy protected hi-def content. Most have this.
* Scaler. These are all fixed pixel displays so all do some scaling. For instance my tv's natural resolution is 1280x720p. That's a nice resolution as it maps to the 720p standard directly. Be cautious with tv's that have native resolutions different from the 720p, 1080i/1080p standard, they are more difficult to hook up to PC's. All must scale 480i/p signals so understand how they do that. Samsung uses the Faroujda scaler which is pretty awesome and is one of their advantages.
* Inputs. As many as you can. I have DVI, 3xComponent and a bunch of SVideo, Composite inputs. DVI - HTPC, Component 1 - DVD, Component 2 - HD Cable Box, Component 3 - Xbox. Some (Hitachi) sets share component inputs (ie. 3 inputs but only 2 useable at a time if DVI used).


Good luck and if you have time surf avs forum, people there know this shit cold.

[Shockeye]

Aren't there DLP's that use multiple wheels that minimize the rainbow effect?

[squirrel]

Aren't there DLP's that use multiple wheels that minimize the rainbow effect?

Not that i know of. Their are multi-chip sets that control 3 mirrors instead of the one chip one mirror method most use and this reduces rainbows significantly (3 chip systems are what digital theater projectors use). Ironically the newer TV's use 7 colour wheels to create a broader colour spectrum which makes rainbows worse. I've probably massacred the actual technical issue but that's the gist of it. That being said, i don't see the rainbows except very occassionally when my mouse cursor is on a black background and i catch it out of the corner of my eye.

[Shockeye]

Ahh yes, 3 chip. That's what I heard about.

I assume those are big ass expensive.

[squirrel]

Ahh yes, 3 chip. That's what I heard about.

I assume those are big ass expensive.

BIG BIG BIG ASS. Like Oprah's pre-diet. I believe there's only 1 or 2 on the market and they are crazy expensive. Rumour has it Sammy will ship a consumer 3 chip in 06/07 though.

[Signe]

It probably doesn't matter that Nintendo may not support HDTV.  Their target audience seems to be under 12 years old... they won't care.

[ahoythematey]

That hurts, Signe.   

[Trippy]

DVDs are 480p for instance.  That means they have 480 vertical lines, and data for all lines in each frame.

Not all NTSC DVDs are 480p. A surprising number of even non-TV sourced material DVDs are mastered at 480i.

Not that i know of. Their are multi-chip sets that control 3 mirrors instead of the one chip one mirror method most use and this reduces rainbows significantly (3 chip systems are what digital theater projectors use).

3 chip DLP systems don't have a color wheel so there's no rainbow effect at all.

Edit: fixed typos

[Signe]

I'm sorry.      I meant to say except for you but my hair is wet and I was in a hurry.

Edit:  This is meant for Ahoythematey but Trippy interrupted.

[AcidCat]

While I'm sure it's true the RP LCD doesn't have the same depth of black as a CRT for example, it's likely that it is something you would never notice. I have a 50" Sony rear-projection LCD that I recently purchased, and black looks like ...well black to me. It's the kind of "problem" you would have to really look for and make comparisons to notice. The so called "screen door" effect I have noticed a few times, looks like just a little bit of pixelization/interference, but I have only noticed it once or twice and as long as you're sitting far enough back from a big TV it's another thing you'd probably never notice.

I have no experience with DLP, but I've heard from people that had both extremes, a set that had noticeable rainbow and gave them headaches apparently and people that never noticed a thing ... not sure what brands they had went with unfortunately.

[squirrel]

While I'm sure it's true the RP LCD doesn't have the same depth of black as a CRT for example, it's likely that it is something you would never notice. I have a 50" Sony rear-projection LCD that I recently purchased, and black looks like ...well black to me.

Depends. Videophiles would lynch you for this comment heh. I returned my Hitachi 50V500 due to light blacks and limited inputs. In a given situation you really can see it - ie. side by side with a CRT. But for most it's not an issue. It didn't bother me much, the limited inputs on the Hitachi were a deal breaker, but i can certainly see the difference in black levels, particularly watching a film like Blade Runner.