Could it be? DAOC listened to the players?

[Paelos]

...and made a non-TOA, no buffbot server?

Apparently so. I'm actually pretty impressed they finally got it together on this issue. As per usual though the changes are too late to pull me back.

[Shockeye]

I'm tempted.

Sad, ain't it?

[schild]

Too little, too late.

[Velorath]

Now if they had allowed character transfers (obviously minus ML's and TOA gear) to that server I might have resubscribed.  I don't think I could ever level another character to 50 in that game though.

[Paelos]

Apparently Catacombs makes it much easier.






Yeah I don't believe that either.

[Daydreamer]

It does make it easier, but not more fun.

Imagine CoH-style instances without the variety of mission objectives, the cool locales, or the fun (Pull 1, kill, rest, rinse, lather, repeat ad nauseum).

Props to Mythic for trying, but without more variety, I see no reason to grind on their treadmill with CoH available.

[Velorath]

If nothing else I'll be keeping a closer eye on their next expansion now.  I'm tempted to resubscribe just to reward them for actually listening to the customers in the vain hope that other companies might start doing the same.  I don't like a lot of the things they've done with the game, but I'd rather see them trying to win customers back this way instead of just saying fuck it and moving forward.

Of course if they offer up a free week trial for former players shortly after the new server is up, then I'd really give them a chance.

[NiX]

Does it support Catacombs? They don't really say. If it does I'll go pick up Catacombs and start playing again. ToA ruined DAoC for me.

[Gong]

I was really excited about this too, as I used to play DAoC prior to TOA and thought PvP to be pretty fun.

However, all of my friends who still play tell me this new server won't be any good. They say that ideally it makes a ton of sense and sounds great, it's too late for the game to change. According to them, all PvP has been balanced around ToA loot, Master Level abilities, and the assumption that anyone seriously PvPing will have access to a buffbot.

They gave examples such as without a Group Cure (only available as a ML ability I guess), other classes become ridiculously overpowered and so forth. I didn't really press them for details past the initial crushed hope.

[Nebu]

Props to Mythic for trying, but without more variety, I see no reason to grind on their treadmill with CoH available.

I do.  Without ToA there's 50% less treadmill while getting set for RvR.  PvE in DAoC sucks and those playing the game for that reason should expect to be underwhelmed.  What Mythic does reasonably well is RvR.  With catacombs and a good group, level 50 should be attainable pretty fast.  This means that a group of friends could be in NF running a group in a week or two. 

The downside of this new server is that it will create some horrible class/realm imbalances.  For example, I'd expect Hibernia to have the majority of players when these 2 new servers go live (rangers and vampiirs will be rampant).  I also expect that the current RA system will create some interesting situations in the absence of ToA abilities to offset them.

As one of the few remaining people on the planet that plays and enjoys this game, I am interested in seeing how it shapes up.  I already see some major problems unless Mythic puts some thought into how they will fully implement the server.  Let's hope that the delay in implementation is being used to avoid any catastrophies.  Camelot is already bleeding subscribers.  A mistake with these two new servers could destroy their hopes for ever increasing their subscriiption numbers again. 

[HRose]

PvE in DAoC sucks and those playing the game for that reason should expect to be underwhelmed.

That's true but in Catacombs there are some zones that are definitely breathtaking. Unmatched in every other mmorpg out there. The gameplay is still sucky though.

The downside of this new server is that it will create some horrible class/realm imbalances.  For example, I'd expect Hibernia to have the majority of players when these 2 new servers go live (rangers and vampiirs will be rampant).  I also expect that the current RA system will create some interesting situations in the absence of ToA abilities to offset them.

This is also true. The fact is that these two ruleset are divergent. I really wonder how Mythic is planning to balance the game from now on because they'll screw up either way.

They should have solved those gameplay problems in the same way they should have made ToA playable and fun. Instead they decided to withdraw completely. This stance will only bring more and more problems in the long distance. I guess they are aware of this..

Btw, you *really* expect those servers to be playable? It's obvious that they'll be completely swamped as they release them. And their success will also aggravates directly the population issues on the standard servers. Basically a real success equals to a complete collapse (aside a big failure for the designers).

[Mesozoic]

Wow.  They're basically repealing an expansion.  Has that been done before?  I know that some private UO shards took steps backwards expansion-wise, but has any developer ever done it?

[schild]

I don't know, but I think I'd be willing to play Star Wars again if they repealed the half-assed Combat Upgrade.

[tazelbain]

Mythic has always listened to the players.  But Mythic's ability or williness to act on the player concerns is better measured on geological terms.

the only thing missing from this new rule set is anti-zerg measures.

[AlteredOne]

Camelot is already bleeding subscribers.  A mistake with these two new servers could destroy their hopes for ever increasing their subscriiption numbers again. 

Yes I'm afraid Catacombs was their first expansion that did not bring even a temporary increase in subscribers, since it was up against WoW and EQ2.  It was not a bad expansion, but the timing was terrible.  If they had released it a year earlier instead of ToA, it could have been a big hit. 

Gotta give them credit for doing something revolutionary, and they might win back my subscription with this move.  I do predict a massive glut of self-buffing Vampiirs, and I would greatly enjoy rolling up a Midgard toon specced to destroy them.

[Shockeye]

Gotta give them credit for doing something revolutionary, and they might win back my subscription with this move.  I do predict a massive glut of self-buffing Vampiirs, and I would greatly enjoy rolling up a Midgard toon specced to destroy them.

Mmm... Vikings...

[Der Helm]

Don't tempt me guys, I need my money in the coming months.

But on the other hand, I never made it past level 19 in my 4 months of playing.

Then again, if there were battlegrounds ...

Damm you. I might actually resubscribe.

[Mesozoic]

Lets try to remember:

1.  The punishing newbie economy.
2.  The repetitive gameplay.
3.  The other DAoC players.

[Der Helm]

Lets try to remember:
3.  The other DAoC players.

Reading the topics on that board and clicking on one thread gave me an aneurim.

Now I can't see properly and the left side of my body feels strangely numb and unresponsive ...

But at least I dodged the bullet that is DAoC.

Off to the ambulance I go.

[AOFanboi]

Does it support Catacombs? They don't really say. If it does I'll go pick up Catacombs and start playing again. ToA ruined DAoC for me.

Doesn't Catacombs state on the box that it requires both previous expansions?

[HaemishM]

Hmmmm, at first blush, this does sound good. However...

The Battlegrounds at level 20 were packed when I played last, and mostly because many people were using /level 20 to get a BG-ready character in quick for some PVP. With /level 20 disabled, most of the BG's including the very popular level 20 one will be deserted, because everyone will just level up to 50.

I cannot do the leveling up to 50. I just can't.

[Nebu]

I cannot do the leveling up to 50. I just can't.

I understand completely. 

The new server will also lack the /level command making the grind even more punitive.  For a game with a PvP endgame, they really made the price of admission to "teh fun" high.  The saving grace of the new server would be 1) Catacombs making the PvE treadmill less steep, 2) No ML's, 3) No Artifact obtaining, 4) No artifact leveling, 5) no scroll farming.  Sadly, I think that all of this may be overcome by the concerns I had above (realm balance, active ra's, class imbalances, etc.)

On a side note, there's is another significant reason why people congregate in the BG's; it takes significantly less knowledge of game mechanics to compete there.  Yes, DAoC is a level based game.  I'll tell you that it does require a bit of timing and strategy to be optimally effective.  It's not twitch, but there are many subtlties in the game mechanics that allow for a skilled player to have a slight advantage over a nonskilled player with identical levels/equipment/realm ranks.  A well constructed group of low realm rank players can beat a group of higher realm rank players if they use all of their tools well.  The system sets the odds against them, but it is possible to beat the odds with solid gameplay.  Does it happen often, no.  But it is possible.

[NiX]

Does it support Catacombs? They don't really say. If it does I'll go pick up Catacombs and start playing again. ToA ruined DAoC for me.

Doesn't Catacombs state on the box that it requires both previous expansions?

I have SI and ToA. So, it wouldn't be a problem running it with the other expansion. Just wondering if they'll have it enabled on the server.

[Paelos]

From what I understand, Catacombs is a go on that server.

[Rasix]

Fuck, I should be expecting a call any day now from my catass, ex-avid DAoC player friend trying to convince me that we should start playing again on that server.  This is something a lot of disgruntled DAoC players have been looking for, it's just a matter on whether or not Mythic burned up all of their good will with these people.

I think I'd take him up on it if he leveled my character for me.   I'm not sure I can stomach hearing that spiggarn sound ever again.

[Paelos]

Yeah spiggarns sound like gnomes trying to get off everytime they attack you.

[Alluvian]

I never really played catacombs, but helped my wife in mapping some of the zones for the strategy guide (she mainly was fixing existing fubared maps, which is why most are so ugly in the guide) and the zone design was fucking HORRIBLE in catacombs.

For example, each side had an underground forest type map.  There were two different types of stalagtites/mites and they were just copied and pasted all over the zone.  The exterior walls were also just a small wall segment copied and pasted around the four perimeters of these VERY rectangular zones.

There was a weird fiery dungeon that looked kinda neat at first, cool effect in the 'sky' around these floating platforms... until you see 2-3 platforms and realize that again the entire zone is copied and pasted.  Right down to the cracks in the steps of the ruined buildings.

I have no idea how good the gameplay was, but the zone design was the worst I have ever seen in a MMOG EVER.  Hell the RANDOM CoH instances looked better and were less repetitive.  Laziest zone building ever in catacombs.

[Soln]

Now if they had allowed character transfers (obviously minus ML's and TOA gear) to that server I might have resubscribed.  I don't think I could ever level another character to 50 in that game though.

same here x 3 my old accounts.  Sad but true.  Who wants to spend that much time online doing the same thing over and over again?

[Special J]

Since I really don't know much about DAoC, can someone explain why removing an expansion (TOA) is a good thing?  Was it that big of a clusterfuck?

[Der Helm]

And while we are asking question, how and why does the catacombs expansion shortens "the grind" ?

[Soukyan]

Since I really don't know much about DAoC, can someone explain why removing an expansion (TOA) is a good thing?  Was it that big of a clusterfuck?

Not so much a clusterfuck as a massive PvE timesink which was not intended to effect RvR (PvP) at all, but managed to become required playing because, as we all know, if you build it, they will min/max. ;)

[Mesozoic]

Since I really don't know much about DAoC, can someone explain why removing an expansion (TOA) is a good thing?  Was it that big of a clusterfuck?

The expansion is not being removed, per se.  Its still there, with its races and classes and areas.  What's being removed are the uber-trials which ate massive quantities of time and shat out pvp-mandatory loot.

[Nebu]

And while we are asking question, how and why does the catacombs expansion shortens "the grind" ?

1. Instanced task dungeons with a nice exp bonus for completion.  They are also doable solo or duo.

2. Dungeon instances within classic world dungeons (2 reach dungeon).  The experience bonus scales with group size meaning that a full group of 8 gets the largest bonus and mobs scale with the level of the players in the group.  These instances also drop aurulite which is much like the seals you found in Darkness Falls.  The equipment you can buy with aurulite has higher quality and utility than that in DF.

3. More quests per level. Faster quests to run.  Quests grant much more experience.  Ex: At level 46 you can find 5-8 quests taking 10 mins or so to  complete with each rewarding some coin and a bubble or so of experience.

4. New classes.  Some of them are very good solo and do not require a buff bot for rapid leveling (i.e. Vampiir).

Summary:  More areas to farm with less competition for those areas.  The best equipment is still mostly found in ToA, but the average piece of gear in Cats is better.  There is also a lot of new gear with PvE bonuses making your character even more able to kill things on the grind to 50.

[AlteredOne]

Summary:  More areas to farm with less competition for those areas.  The best equipment is still mostly found in ToA, but the average piece of gear in Cats is better.  There is also a lot of new gear with PvE bonuses making your character even more able to kill things on the grind to 50.

On top of all that, Mythic added major xp bonuses for underpopulated realms, along with a /freelevel feature that gives a free level every 3 days (5 days on highly populated servers), every time you earn a level.  The freelevel thing really comes in handy if you're a true casual player who likes to ding once or twice a week.  I got a Catacombs character from 1 to 50 in about 3.5 days /played, which is really tiny compared to most xp grind games.  That was using a combination of quests, free levels, guild xp groups, and xp kill tasks.  Honestly, even the 1-20 grind in GuildWars takes a day or so of /played time. 

With Catacombs and various bonuses, Mythic really has reduced the xp grind massively.  The problem was the huge forced grouping ToA grind that began after you reached 50.

[Nebu]

With Catacombs and various bonuses, Mythic really has reduced the xp grind massively.  The problem was the huge forced grouping ToA grind that began after you reached 50.

I agree completely.  Getting a toon to 50 now is much easier than getting to the endgame of the other popular mmog's.  The problem in the past was that getting to 50 was merely the beginning of the treadmill with ML's and artifacts/template gear.  With the removal of ToA, the majority of the grind is gone. 

Sadly the grind from 1-50 is still a dull, mindless affair.  It's a shame that some "dues" always have to be paid to get to the fun part of GAMES.