Alliance/Horde Imbalances

[Jayce]

Don't gnomes have a pretty useful racial?

Escape artist - get out of a root free.

It's not all that useful really, since it has a casting time and a cooldown.  Ornate mithril boots are better, but I guess if you have a gnome warrior you get two get out of root free cards.

[Margalis]

This is what horde needs:

1: Races that don't have a green/blue skin tone. 3 of the races already look pretty much the same. So no Ogres, no Goblins, etc. Seriously Undead, Orcs and Trolls look pretty similar from a distance.

2: Races with somewhat decent looking females. I hate to say it but this will draw more people in.

[Rasix]

This is what horde needs:

1: Races that don't have a green/blue skin tone. 3 of the races already look pretty much the same. So no Ogres, no Goblins, etc. Seriously Undead, Orcs and Trolls look pretty similar from a distance.

2: Races with somewhat decent looking females. I hate to say it but this will draw more people in.

1:  You're on crack. If you can't tell an orc from a troll from an undead at the maximum draw distance you need some new glasses.  Blue skin tone didn't stop a half million people from rolling a night elf hunter, either.  I'm guessing even orange elves would be a huge seller.

2.  Yep, it's misisng the mangina factor.  Only race that you can make a moderately non-hideous character is undead and even then, it's still a rotting corpse.   If horde had a race that was slim with the options of a two tailed pink haircut and no tusks/body rot: goodbye population imbalance.

[gimpyone]

For my friends, it came down to the Alliance were the good guys and the Horde were the bad guys.  I spent a good hour trying to pound it into their head that good and evil is relative but they wouldn't change their side.

[Margalis]

1:  You're on crack. If you can't tell an orc from a troll from an undead at the maximum draw distance you need some new glasses.  Blue skin tone didn't stop a half million people from rolling a night elf hunter, either.  I'm guessing even orange elves would be a huge seller.

I can tell the difference, but my point is 3 of the 4 Horder races appear greenish/blueish. Orcs, Undead and Trolls look more similar than different when compared to the alliance races. All about the same size, about the same color, etc. The races are not nearly as distinct.

There is no problem with blue skin. The problem is every race looking the same. Horde has two races, Tauren and generic-looking blue/green average-sized humanoids.

They could make trolls look more like D&D trolls, with gnarled tannish skin and more animalistic features - more feral creatures. Or they could add a race that looked significantly different in size and skin tone. At the least they could make Orcs a bit taller, broader and beefier overall.

I don't think you can discount the fact that the Horde races look much less distinct than the Alliance ones.

[ajax34i]

They can remodel or add extra models to the undeads and the trolls, something without bones and with better hairdos for the undeads, and less fangs and scowling for the trolls.  It would help if they didn't slouch all the time, either.  That would make these existing races more attractive, so that when they add new ones, you don't have everyone playing blood elf females only.

[Merusk]

For my friends, it came down to the Alliance were the good guys and the Horde were the bad guys.  I spent a good hour trying to pound it into their head that good and evil is relative but they wouldn't change their side.

Not only relative, but after playing WC3 you come out with the feeling that the Alliance is probably more decidedly on the bad side than the Horde.

Horde dont need elves.  Not even sure if Blood Elves would really go horde side anyhow.  What we really need is: Goblins, Ogres, or maybe even Naga (Illadin joins the horde, brings his Naga in as a playable faction?)

Whatever they were to add would need to be explained in the MMO or be consistant with Warcraft lore.  Goblins, it has been decided, are competly neutral.  (Adding them to the Horde side would take some explaining around Gadgetzan, Winterfell and BB.)  Naga are anti-everyone for some reason I've never really understood, even after playing through WC3.  Ogres would be a very good choice, since they're supposed to be part of the Horde already. Their omission is kind of glaring and hasn't been addressed by Blizzard.  Kind of makes the whole Rexaar campaign in WC3 pointless.  Thus the speculation from many that it will be Blood Elves.  They joined Illidan because of their racial addiction to magic, but you could probably argue some segment of them would join the Horde. They are, after all, just looking out for themselves.

Also, the sad fact is that folks are shallow.  They want the eyecandy and a large portion of people won't play Horde because they're "Ugly" and, as gimpyone pointed out, also percieved as 'Evil' due to traditional fantasy prejudice.  Give them something 'cool' like Evil Elves and you'll have the same problem the Alliance has.. and likely even-out the population a bit.

Edit: Rogue sentences that wander to the end of paragraphs make me sadf

[jpark]

This is what horde needs:

1: Races that don't have a green/blue skin tone. 3 of the races already look pretty much the same. So no Ogres, no Goblins, etc. Seriously Undead, Orcs and Trolls look pretty similar from a distance.

Do the responsible thing and rescind your driver's license.

[Rasix]

I don't think you can discount the fact that the Horde races look much less distinct than the Alliance ones.

Yah, alliance has racial distinction oozing out of every pore.  Humans, extra short humans, short humans that are also fat, and then finally blue, skinny humans with pointy ears.   Veritable Armor Hotdogs commercial right there.

[schild]

That sounds more like the cover of an ACLU brochure.

*BADUMP*CHING*

[WindupAtheist]

Add evil humans, and some sort of death knight class.  When I came into WoW, I didn't want to be a member of some pigfaced race of savages, but I still wanted to be Horde.  So I started to make an undead warrior, until I realized I didn't want to be a humpbacked bastard with blue skin either.  Then I rolled a human pally.

[Azazel]

Yeah, I think that would do it really.. Evil Humans + Dark/Chaos/Shadow/Black Knights + Sexy/Cutesy Ebil Elves will even out a lot of the imbalance problems. Even Ogres are doable, after all, how many factions of essentially PVE-Only player races are out there? Scarlet Crusade/Gnomish Lepers/Dark Iron Dwarves/Endless Trolls in STV etc, so Ogres would still be doable in this context..

[Ironwood]

Naga are anti-everyone for some reason I've never really understood, even after playing through WC3. 

They have less calories in them, 'cause they're Fish.

[Fabricated]

Yeah, I think that would do it really.. Evil Humans + Dark/Chaos/Shadow/Black Knights + Sexy/Cutesy Ebil Elves will even out a lot of the imbalance problems. Even Ogres are doable, after all, how many factions of essentially PVE-Only player races are out there? Scarlet Crusade/Gnomish Lepers/Dark Iron Dwarves/Endless Trolls in STV etc, so Ogres would still be doable in this context..

The problem is that most of the PVE races don't really fit the profile of the Horde, which isn't evil, just a collection of misplaced/misunderstood races that on the large just want to be left the fuck alone.

[Jayce]

Naga, as I understand it, are twisted night elves.  The method of their creation probably makes them insane, which is why they're anti-everyone.

Funny thing is that I would have thought that joe gamer would want to play Horde because they're (perceived as) evil, goth, badass, etc.  I guess mangina trumps angst.  Who woulda thunk it.

However, with blood elves, you get angst along with your mangina.  4 teh win!

[El Gallo]

It's not like you are adding a sixth act to Hamlet, and literate junior high school student could write an explanation for any race joining any faction and have it be consistent with Warcraft lore.  "Thrall saves the [insert race here] princess from the evil demon kill'ja'lol'mok'thogg'magog'keke forming an alliance between their people for all time" and you're done.  Half of the shit in the game now makes no damn sense as it is.

[Azazel]

The problem is that most of the PVE races don't really fit the profile of the Horde, which isn't evil, just a collection of misplaced/misunderstood races that on the large just want to be left the fuck alone.

My point with the PVE races was mostly discussing ogres and why the fact that they're aggro to everyone doesn't preclude them being a Horde race. I never played WC3 but I did finish WC2 and it's expansions, and from reading this thread, Ogres are part of the horde in both. \

As for motivation, a "dark"knight class doesn't have be set up in a retarded EQ-style "we're the dark elves of evil and we worship the dark god Inny of evil and in EQ2 we live in the city of evil called Freeport where all the town guards and trainers and so forth tell us that we should go out and evilly perform acts of pure evil because it's good to be evil.

All Horde races have warriors, all Horde races have priests/shamans/casters of various sorts, so the idea of "Horde Knight-guy who runs around in spiky plate armour with a giant frickin' sword and casting various spells of some kind for the good and the honor of his people is not much of a stretch, especially for an expansion pack, since the whole WC universe is built upon stuff sequentially. Nor is a Faction of the Elves Who Have Become Tired Of Their Persecution From Somethingorotherontheallianceside Who's Females Have Pink Hair and Huge Breasticles And Who's Males Are All Called Drizzzzzztle Instead Of Legolazzz a real stretch for a computer-game fantasy world. Not to mention that http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retcon fits in with every one of these pulp-fantasy worlds we're discussing here..

Hell, even Warhammer, who has a long-established and filled-in Fantasy world which only slightly mostly resembles Early-Renaissance Europe retrofits shit like this all the time. The "World"of Warcraft is a positive lightweight compared to WFB's world in terms of history and background.

It's a game after all, not a work of high literature.

Az

[Ironwood]

Hmmmmm, Breasticles.

[Abel]

My point with the PVE races was mostly discussing ogres and why the fact that they're aggro to everyone doesn't preclude them being a Horde race.

Ogres do belong to the Horde in WoW, they're just not a playable race (yet). There is an ogre outpost in Dustwallow Marsh which belongs to the horde, so at least one ogre tribe supports the Horde, very much like it's the case with the trolls.

[Margalis]

Adding Ogres would solve nothing. Step 1 is identify the problem, Step 2 is solve it. Ogres don't solve any problem. They are just another monstrous looking ugly race. Adding more races just for the sake of adding more races isn't going to solve anything.

Alliance are the good guys, they have the reputation of having a more developed game overall, they are more popular already, they have hot females, and they have races people can identify with. (Humans)

[HaemishM]

I'm going to have to agree that adding Horde-y humans and Horde-y Manginals (i.e. Elves) would certainly give the Horde a legup on population balance, especially if the females are teh hawt. I can't help but feel sad that there are so many Night Elf players out there just screaming to come out of the closet.

[Azazel]

Adding Ogres would solve nothing. Step 1 is identify the problem, Step 2 is solve it. Ogres don't solve any problem. They are just another monstrous looking ugly race. Adding more races just for the sake of adding more races isn't going to solve anything.

Alliance are the good guys, they have the reputation of having a more developed game overall, they are more popular already, they have hot females, and they have races people can identify with. (Humans)

I agreed with both the ebil humans and hentai elves points, but I also think that Ogres could be a big Horde Selling point (TM) as well, if done properly. One thing that the EQs did well at least was to use the Games Workshop (pre OK) template for how their ogres look. They look like big mofos that will tear your head off and eat your liver. Unfortunately the WoW ogres look like cartoon ass.

Az

[Pococurante]

For my friends, it came down to the Alliance were the good guys and the Horde were the bad guys.

I hate that perception.  It was inevitable I guess, thank you J.R.R.T.  I don't consider Horde any more evil than the Mongols or the Huns.

[ajax34i]

Unfortunately the WoW ogres look like cartoon ass.

Well, fortunately, only the male Ogres seem to be in game.  Thus, they could make the female models hawt, kinda like Lineage 2's dwarves, but with mature hot females, not kids.  That would let players who wish to play something similar to their RL personna play Ogre males, and players who wish to "roleplay" play females.

[Sogrinaugh]

I'd much rather see goblins as a playable race then stupid ogres.

Goblins only have about, oh, a BILLION TIMES more personality/ cool-points then ogres.  They have actual cites, and things they are known for besides being giant pieces of flesh-colored shit.  I would also like to see engineer as a character class for goblins, sort of an uber-expansion on the engineering prof, available only to goblins.  Thier mount could be those wish-i-was-starwars-episode-one hover-thingies from the shimmering flats, and they should be faster then normal mounts (both normal and epic versions).

The only thing ogres get props for is dancing.  But this is wow, not a strip joint (unless you play on ER).

[Dren]

I'd much rather see goblins as a playable race then stupid ogres.

Goblins only have about, oh, a BILLION TIMES more personality/ cool-points then ogres.  They have actual cites, and things they are known for besides being giant pieces of flesh-colored shit.  I would also like to see engineer as a character class for goblins, sort of an uber-expansion on the engineering prof, available only to goblins.  Thier mount could be those wish-i-was-starwars-episode-one hover-thingies from the shimmering flats, and they should be faster then normal mounts (both normal and epic versions).

The only thing ogres get props for is dancing.  But this is wow, not a strip joint (unless you play on ER).

I know this is on topic and all, but damn that is the geekiest post I've seen in a long while.  Congrats.

Before you argue with me, just read it as if you were somebody "not in the know."  Hell I'm in the know and I'm thinking that.

I speak geek too, but this just struck me as funny.

[Dren]

   If horde had a race that was slim with the options of a two tailed pink haircut and no tusks/body rot: goodbye population imbalance.

Horde Teenage Mallrats?

I'm still searching for your response to the rumor of Horde Blood Elves.  I actually thought of you when I heard that.  Something along the lines of several lines of unintelligble curses directed at everyone and everything....especailly Blizzard.

Now you too can raid with asshat manginas!

[WindupAtheist]

Funny thing is that I would have thought that joe gamer would want to play Horde because they're (perceived as) evil, goth, badass, etc.  I guess mangina trumps angst.  Who woulda thunk it.

A cow-man in a teepee isn't evil/goth/angsty OR mangina-riffic though.

[Pococurante]

Udderly ridiculous? Silliest thing to go pasteurize all day?

[Fargull]

A cow-man in a teepee isn't evil/goth/angsty OR mangina-riffic though.

Since your 2D god was crucified you have been a bitter man.

Mangina will not fix the horde / alliance imbalance.  The fact the Barrens is about as dull a zone as you can make for x many levels has a lot to do with it.  Just like I can not stand the starting zone of the dwarves... Hello snow blindness....

[Rasix]

I'm still searching for your response to the rumor of Horde Blood Elves.  I actually thought of you when I heard that.  Something along the lines of several lines of unintelligble curses directed at everyone and everything....especailly Blizzard.

I think I've unleashed at least one curse filled diatribe here regarding blood elves. It's been mentioned here since beta I'm sure and if not, I bet our resident queen elf lover, Llava, has brought it up. I'm just beyond the point of offereing an angry, curse filled response.

The prospect just fills me with absolute horror.  It's like outsourcing jobs overseas, you know it makes sense and is in the best interest of the company, but that doesn't stop you from recoiling in terror everytime it's mentioned.

I'd likely quit the second it's officially announced, just in protest to another game going the way of "more elves. step #2. profit!"  But the way I feel about the game currently, I probably won't be around when it happens.  My love for this game runs pretty hot and cold and Schild could probably tell you (I'm sure he's fed up with my "god I'm going to quit PMs").  It's not that I don't still like the game, it's just that I've felt like I've experienced all there is for the game to really offer.  And part of my current apathy is due to the large imbalance.  Alterac Valley, during a large portion of the time I want to play, has a dwindling horde population.  Really, once you get less than 30 on a side, it just turns into a bloodbath and it makes it not fun.  This usually occurs during the last hour or so of time I want to play.  I'm not sure it's going to be a sustainable avenue for fun.  I guess I've just hit burnout hard. 

Yah, fuck elves. 

[Sogrinaugh]

I know this is on topic and all, but damn that is the geekiest post I've seen in a long while.  Congrats.

Before you argue with me, just read it as if you were somebody "not in the know."  Hell I'm in the know and I'm thinking that.

I speak geek too, but this just struck me as funny.

Geekiest?  So where on your ruler does measuring degrees of geek on a messageboard devoted not just to games, but MMOG's, fall?

Thx for putting yourself there.

[Margalis]

Actually I think it would be better if the Horde had a really goth looking race, but they don't. Undead don't really look Goth.

There are a lot of problems right now:

1: Alliance are the "good guys"
2: Alliance has the reputation of being more developed - better quests, better zones, etc.
3: Alliance has humans that people can identify with.
4: Alliance has some attractive members. (Humands and night elves)
5: Alliance has cutesy characters (Gnomes)
6: Alliance is popular, which means if you want to play with your buddies you should probably choose alliance since they are alliance. (Chicken and egg problem)

New horde races would address some of this, but not 2 or 6.

[WindupAtheist]

Here's my plan for fixing the Horde:

Step One:  When asking players to choose the visual avatar by which they will be identified for months or even years to come, give them at least one character option that doesn't look as if it's mere presence could stink out a meat-packing plant.  Something which neither draws inspiration from some manner of barnyard animal, nor suffers from the active rotting of it's flesh.

Step Two:  Add a unique class to the Horde side, one more aesthetically pleasing than Shaman.  In a game where both sides feature warriors and mages the genre is built upon, is it any surprise that the Horde-only bonus of being able to play a tribal voodoo witchdoctor isn't carrying the day?

Step Three:  Slight but definite XP bonus to the underpopulated side.

EDIT:

Since your 2D god was crucified you have been a bitter man

Since it was confirmed that UO will have a quest where you cut off elf ears and turn them in for lewts, I've been mulling over sticking around for a while.   :-D

[Zetor]

I am tempted to meet this shallow comment by arguing horde racials are not overpowered and there are useful abilities on the Alliance side.  But this misses the point, so by all means, take this discussion to the Blizzard boards.  There are many there who enjoy that banter.

We are talking about adding incentives or changing mechanics to balance faction populations.  Increasing Horde racials is one idea - adding another class only for Horde side is another.  Heck even Evil elves might be worth a look.

What's your idea?

My idea is that there isn't any "quick fix" for this. Joe Average will play the side his friends play and undead rogues are just as common a sight as NE Hunters anyway. I just said that improving racials wouldn't help things, since they are ALREADY better than the alliance racials [with the exceptions of NE, trolls and maybe orcs] and you wouldn't get more horde players with them, just more biatching. Well, except if you improved trolls, I don't think anyone'd complain about them. They really got the shaft.
Let's say we implemented a "Thrall's Resolve" horde-only passive racial ability, 50% fear resistance or something. The omghardcore pvpers are already undead (undead make up more than 40% of the horde pop on my server, go figure), all this'll accomplish is a wave of nerf posts on the blizzard forums. And we all love those.

The only thing that'd work is give a minor passive bonus to the 'underdog' side on each server [as WUA suggested], like +10% xp. Or something.


[fwiw I play both Horde and Alliance, both on pvp servers]


-- Z.