Questions About CoV

[Morfiend]

Well, I played CoH again this week due to the 5 day free resub. Man, I really miss the levels and the combat. Great 3d levels.

Any way, I was never much for the "Hero" side. CoV has always had my attention. I had a few questions some of you still playing might know.

When CoV comes out, is every one wanting to be a villian going to have to start at lvl 1? If so, maybe Ill come back for that. Also, with the long level grind, doesnt that mean the heros will be wooping the villians for a while to come, with all the established characters?

Also, if they dont start at lvl1, would I be screwed by resubbing when CoV comes out becuase I would be so far behind the curve?

Thanks guys. Any other CoV info would be cool also.

[Llava]

When CoV comes out, is every one wanting to be a villian going to have to start at lvl 1? If so, maybe Ill come back for that. Also, with the long level grind, doesnt that mean the heros will be wooping the villians for a while to come, with all the established characters?

All villains start at level 1.  There will eventually be a way to transfer your hero to a villain or your villain to a hero, but that's not slated for release.

Heroes won't necessarily woop the villains for a while. 
Firstly, you underestimate the strength of power gamers.  Especially power gamers that are already familiar with the game's system, if not its setting or individual powers. 
Secondly, PvP is consensual and it seems as though it'd be fairly worthless to raid the base of a supergroup that doesn't have an object of power yet.  So you wouldn't grab one of those objects until you felt you were ready. 
Third, the arena and Giant Monsters both have shown a sort of auto-SKing precedent in CoH.  While a level 1 still doesn't have a chance at taking a 50, a 40 has a very real chance of doing so as they're put on even ground for the to-hit chances and much closer to even ground on the damage modifiers.

So all that combined should equal only a few days, maybe a couple weeks, of domination on the hero side of things until the villains can really compete.  And, I would say that the vast numerical advantage that villains are likely to have during those first few days will help.  Really, most people who own City of Heroes and don't plan to buy City of Villains have no interest in PvP in the first place, and most people who do buy City of Villains will likely be playing villains for a while.

[jpark]

Really, most people who own City of Heroes and don't plan to buy City of Villains have no interest in PvP in the first place, and most people who do buy City of Villains will likely be playing villains for a while.

I dunno mate.  It was originally talked about in the development stages as I recall - so in my mind as a consumer I have been "waiting" for it.

More broadly, Cryptic's design strategy has been, as many have pointed out here - somewhat unique.  They promised very little - and delivered with top marks.  They designed the game with the intent of the additions - not as an after thought (e.g pvp in EQ2).

For example, the bad guys use powers with similar parameters that we use against them.  This symmetry in the rules of combat may lend a strong foundation in developing a balanced pvp system.

[Llava]

Really, most people who own City of Heroes and don't plan to buy City of Villains have no interest in PvP in the first place, and most people who do buy City of Villains will likely be playing villains for a while.

I dunno mate.  It was originally talked about in the development stages as I recall - so in my mind as a consumer I have been "waiting" for it.

More broadly, Cryptic's design strategy has been, as many have pointed out here - somewhat unique.  They promised very little - and delivered with top marks.  They designed the game with the intent of the additions - not as an after thought (e.g pvp in EQ2).

For example, the bad guys use powers with similar parameters that we use against them.  This symmetry in the rules of combat may lend a strong foundation in developing a balanced pvp system.

You've been waiting for it and, I assume, plan to participate in PvP, but have no plans to play a villain?  Short term or long term?

It seems to me that most folks who will actually impact the PvP side of things will probably start out playing villains for at least a couple days, then go to their heroes and try to pick some fights only to find that there aren't really villains around to challenge them, because no one's high enough level.  You'll also have your people who didn't buy City of Heroes initially but planned to wait for CoV (most of whom won't buy CoV either, now, as they're probably swept up in WoW or Guild Wars or something like that, but some of whom will very likely pick up CoV when they learn it's out).

And CoV has the distinction of releasing with PvP, whereas CoH didn't.  I do think that heroes will have an overall larger population, but the number of them who actually regularly participate in PvP will probably be less than the numbers that villains can produce.  Over time it could balance out, or it could not.  Look at Alliance versus Horde.  Look at DAoC servers that had population imbalances from the day of release to the day of clustering.

[eldaec]

They designed the game with the intent of the additions - not as an after thought (e.g pvp in EQ2).

They really didn't design the game with the intent of adding pvp.

They designed a game where they openly admitted they'd uncomfortable allowing players to join the villian side.

Eventually they caved to pressure from beta players.

Time will tell if they were right to do so. I'm looking forward to CoV because Cryptic's new pve content has been even better than the CoH launch stuff (see: Striga Island). A additional CoH size chunk of Striga-style pve luv would be worth the admission price alone. If pvp works I'll view it as a massive bonus - but I'm not holding my breath.

[Daydreamer]

They designed the game with the intent of the additions - not as an after thought (e.g pvp in EQ2).

They really didn't design the game with the intent of adding pvp.

They designed a game where they openly admitted they'd uncomfortable allowing players to join the villian side.

Eventually they caved to pressure from beta players.

Time will tell if they were right to do so. I'm looking forward to CoV because Cryptic's new pve content has been even better than the CoH launch stuff (see: Striga Island). A additional CoH size chunk of Striga-style pve luv would be worth the admission price alone. If pvp works I'll view it as a massive bonus - but I'm not holding my breath.

Why is Striga so fun? I left just before it was released.

[ajax34i]

...with the long level grind, doesnt that mean the heros will be wooping the villians for a while to come, with all the established characters?

My opinion is that hero/villain interaction will be limited to certain border zones, and those will probably be level-restricted.  At least, that's how they described it for people who only have CoH or only have CoV installed (you'll only be able to enter certain zones unless you have the other game installed).  Possibly, villain/villain interaction will let us grind NPC's in "safe" zones and level up till we're ready and willing to go bash heroes.

Base-raiding, I'm not sure how much of that will be PvE, or how it will be limited.  If they place limits on monster density, on what you can put where, the gameplay for raiding a player villain's base could be very similar to any door quest in CoH.  

I don't know much, though.

EDIT:  Striga, probably because it's new content.  Although, instead of random missions from 5 different agents, you get an arc, sort of; a progression of missions given by a progression of agents that eventually leads to an assault on a Council (the new 5th Column, soldier guys plus vampires and werewolves) base buried under a mountain...

[eldaec]

Striga learnt from the previous mistakes, basically. So...

Story line is contained entirely within the zone - much less dull travelling about.
Missions have more unique map sections and unique bad guys than elsewhere. They also include more cool features like the traps and such.
Cool and interesting temp powers with use based expiry, rather than mission or time based.
No irritating tile sets like the blue cavern - and lots of high ceilings so the cameras don't screw up.
Has the best Task Force in the game, by far, featuring giant robots.
Finally the design of the location and random mobs, with the tunnels, the volcano, the turrets etc etc is just plain better than other zones in Paragon.

[kaid]

I played a bit of coh over the weekend I am REALLY looking forward to Cov. I really would love to see a COH sized striga or better quality pvp section added to the game. PVP on top of that would be icing on an already tasty doughnut.

kaid

[Mesozoic]

I just hope that villain missions are actually evil.  Let me take hostages, steal money, build nefarious engines of destruction, poison water supplies with mind-altering serums, etc. 

If villain missions involve "stop meeting of NPC heroes in Cave_003," then villains are just heroes with scary masks, and I'm not sure what the point will be. 

[Llava]

I just hope that villain missions are actually evil.  Let me take hostages, steal money, build nefarious engines of destruction, poison water supplies with mind-altering serums, etc. 

If villain missions involve "stop meeting of NPC heroes in Cave_003," then villains are just heroes with scary masks, and I'm not sure what the point will be. 

They've touched on that a few times.  A while back I believe it was Statesman who said something like "Heroes are reactive, putting out fires where they spring up, while villains are proactive.  Missions will reflect this."

There was something said more recently that I can't seem to find to the effect of what you're describing.  I remember reading a few examples of what villain missions will be like, and they're what you would expect villains to do- steal stuff, set fires, etc etc.

[MaceVanHoffen]

If villain missions involve "stop meeting of NPC heroes in Cave_003," then villains are just heroes with scary masks, and I'm not sure what the point will be. 

I want to hover over a globe, holding my pet cat, and laugh maniacally as I contemplate world domination.  Give me that mission option!

[Murgos]

They specifically mentioned robbing banks and sinking ships as available advanced evil mission activities.

The early levels aren't going to be too different, your mostly going to be fighting gangs for thier 'turf' which could bite them in the ass if there isn't enough differentation from CoH early missions.

[eldaec]

Ultimately though, as xp is kill-based not objective-based, all core of all missions will function exactly like CoH missions where the true practical objective is to kill everything on the map, and possibly find some glowies.

The fluff which occiasionally adds to CoH missions will no doubt be there in greater amounts, but that can only make the missions feel like better versions of CoH missions, I don't really see how they are going to feel functionally different.

[Alkiera]

Ultimately though, as xp is kill-based not objective-based, all core of all missions will function exactly like CoH missions where the true practical objective is to kill everything on the map, and possibly find some glowies.

The fluff which occiasionally adds to CoH missions will no doubt be there in greater amounts, but that can only make the missions feel like better versions of CoH missions, I don't really see how they are going to feel functionally different.

CoH has, for some time now, given out decent xp rewards for completing missions that aren't 'kill everything' missions, so that those who wish can stealth thru them, or teleport past baddies, or what-have-you.  Yes, you still get more exp for killing the mobs  on the way, but it doesn't leave the 'guile' heroes out in the cold exp-wise.

Alkiera

[eldaec]

Stealthing a mission is always either 'kill all in one room' or 'touch all glowies' though. While they can change the backstory and fluff, people will still complain that CoV missions = CoH missions.

[Daydreamer]

Question: Anyone know if, and how many new power sets they will be adding in CoV?  And how many V-sets cross over to CoH and vise versa?

[schild]

If they're making us pay a seperate price and buy a new box, I would go on the record as saying there is no crossover in powersets.

[Alkiera]

If they're making us pay a seperate price and buy a new box, I would go on the record as saying there is no crossover in powersets.

Schild beat me to saying this, but I agree.  If it's a seperate game with some PvP crossover, then I'd guess there won't be much crossover, at least initially.  They might, uh, 'port' some of the powersets over eventually as part of an 'issue' style update, either with the launch of CoV, or sometime later... but I wouldn't hold my breath.

Alkiera

[Viin]

Hmm, did I read somewhere that there would be *no* crossover between CoH and CoV unless you buy CoV? Or was that just the lairs?

[Llava]

Hmm, did I read somewhere that there would be *no* crossover between CoH and CoV unless you buy CoV? Or was that just the lairs?

I believe they've gone back and forth on this a few times.  I've heard both that version, and that players with JUST CoH or JUST CoV will be able to PvP to their hearts' content, but wouldn't be able to play as the opposite side.  So... wait for a more definite answer, I guess.

Regarding power sets, I'd imagine that they won't crossover (though villains will likely have some of the same pool powers, maybe reorganized or with different names or something).  Once they implement the corruption/redemption system, though, who knows if that'll change?

[schild]

If CoV has the same powersets in any fashion as CoH, I will actively tell people not to purchase the game, on f13 and at work. I'm sorry, but that's just terrible. That's where you go out of your way at GDC to say: "BAD STATESMAN, BAD."

[ajax34i]

Well, whatever powers they come up with will be classifiable as a DD, a DoT, a heal, a buff, a debuff, etc.  I can imagine them not giving villains, say, radiation-based attacks, or flame-based attacks, but can you imagine Villains without DD's? 

They CAN have different archetypes, but just pairing up DD's, DoT's, heals, debuffs, etc. differently across primaries and secondaries doesn't guarantee that you won't feel like a blaster with a particular villain, for example.  My guess is they're going to hybridize the archetypes.  In CoH you had tank, rogue, wizard, healer, enchanter, maybe CoV will have Paladin (uh, DeathKnight), ranger, bard, necro, monk, hunter, whatever.

[CmdrSlack]

The info that I"ve read (and am too lazy to search for on the forums) is that there will be new ATs.  Last I heard there was actually one less than in CoH.  As far as I understand, there will also be new powers and stuff, but I'm willing to bet that some powersets transfer across here and there.  Take, for example, devices and assault rifle. 

[eldaec]

The CoV ATs are in general the reverse of the CoH ATs, so they would be...

Reverse Defender : Blast / Buff
Reverse Controller : Buff / Control
Reverse Tank : Melee / Defence
Reverse Scrap : Defence / Melee
Reverse Blaster : Piece-of-crap / Blast

BUT we also know there are only 4 CoV ATs, I'm betting they dropped Piece-of-crap / Blast, for obvious reasons.

We also know from videos etc that there at least some of the powersets are new, and that at least one of the powersets is a sword of some sort.

[Daydreamer]

I want a Melee/Buff spec badly.  That would be sweet.

[Llava]

BUT we also know there are only 4 CoV ATs, I'm betting they dropped Piece-of-crap / Blast, for obvious reasons.

Actually, I'm not sure about that.  They've announced four, but I believe I remember hearing about another one in the works.  I could be wrong about that, though.

[ajax34i]

I'm not sure how the reverse controller would level...  if you apply the "secondary pool" damage reduction penalties to a controller's already gimped "control" pool...  it would be too sucky.  Pets at 38, the majority of your primary pool not being usable on yourself... 

And switching a tank's pools results in a scrapper, and switching a scrapper's pools results in a tank.

[Llava]

I'm not sure how the reverse controller would level...  if you apply the "secondary pool" damage reduction penalties to a controller's already gimped "control" pool...  it would be too sucky.  Pets at 38, the majority of your primary pool not being usable on yourself... 

It should be noted, however, that the dev team has said and plans to address that Controllers are too difficult to level before 32.  I would imagine the reverse controller would reflect this.

[eldaec]

Controllers are difficult to level solo before 32, but Buff/control would probably be better than anything heroes have in a group.

And controllers already kick all kinds of ass when grouped in CoH. Unless they picked a silly powerset like gravity.

[Llava]

Controllers are difficult to level solo before 32, but Buff/control would probably be better than anything heroes have in a group.

Well yeah, but a large part of CoH is soloing (or, at least, the ability to do so with any combination of powersets).  Unless you've got a dedicated team, something not a lot of people have in CoH, having a hard time soloing can very much = have a hard time levelling.

I'm not so sure Buff/Control would be better in a group.  If the penalty heroes receive on secondary powersets would carry over to CC duration, which I believe it would, they should be about equal to Controllers in effectiveness.

[eldaec]

In other cases of non-controller cc, they just slap on a -1 mag penalty and/or rule out crit holds. In practice that means you can't hold bosses without a second shot, but makes little difference on anything else. On a buff/control AT that shouldn't be too big a deal as your debuffs will generally be adequate (and usually better) for answering bosses as a threat, while your cc deals with the crowds (and provides pets ofc).

A post above mentioned about pets not coming till 38, I wouldn't be surprised if a secondary control set got around that simply by putting pets in the 28 slot.

[ClydeJr]

This player-created CoV FAQ says there's going to be 5 villain archetypes: Brute, Stalker, Destroyer, Mastermind, and Dominator, although I originally heard there was only going to be 4 archetypes called Brute, Stalker, Enforcer, and Mastermind. Stateman also mentioned that the powersets would be similar but not the same. There would have to be some crossover a little bit.

[Signe]

I think Dominator was the one they were unsure of... I don't remember and I can't be arsed to try and find it.

On a side note... I say hello to you and Eldeac on Batnet almost every time I log in and no one ever says hi back.  I feel sad and rejected even though I'm sure no one but me ever checks Batnet anymore.

[eldaec]

I haven't been on Coh for almost a month or so, mostly because I4 added nothing interesting in the end. But my characters probably don't all have Batnet set up on the chat window, I should check that. I'm not ignoring you on purpose, honest!