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Author Topic: Mark Jacobs on Warhammer  (Read 14217 times)
eldaec
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on: May 25, 2005, 03:25:32 AM

Quote
Folks,

First, I want to thank everyone for their kind words regarding the announcement of our first Warhammer game. Everyone at Mythic is quite excited about the possibilities that this partnership with the fine folks at Games Workshop with bring about to both companies. Secondly, as to the game that we have begun work on, it will be a game that is focused on the RvR aspects of Warhammer. We will reveal more details over the coming months but for now, I think the best way to describe the game I have envisioned is the simple phrase "This time it's WAAAGH!" Third, I apologize in advance for what will be infrequent appearances here and other Warhammer-related sites. It's not that I don't love to chat (as the guys at GW can tell you, getting me to shut up is more of a problem), but I have a game design to work on after all.

To answer some brief questions that have popped up here and on other forums:

1) This is not a continuation of the Warhammer Online project. Mythic is working closely with GW to create a new vision for a Warhammer online game.

2) The development time-line for the game is a tad over 2 years but given our experience and existing code-base (Dark Age of Camelot, Imperator and others), we believe we can meet that schedule.

3) We want to pull in as much material from the Warhammer material as we can to make this a great game. I don't care where it comes from, if it's Warhammer (Fantasy Battles, RPG, Warmaster) and it also can be part of a great game, I want to try to fit it in this game. This game will not be DAoC2 with the name of Warhammer attached.

4) RvR does not equal PvP. DAoC is not a PvP game and neither will be this game. We want people to be able to roleplay and we also want them to be able to play the game without worrying about getting ganked from the moment they enter the game by someone more powerful than them.

5) The building and maintaining of community is quite important to Mythic whether it is in the game or out of it. The reason we don't host our own forums is that we either do it well (which means full-time admins, added costs) or we would rather not do it at all. We will consider setting up our own forums for this game but most likely, they will be private to keep the noise level down. Now, if we make them private, we will of course invite all the people who have been participating in forums like these to join us. We will also have ultra-private forums for beta-testers as we do for DAoC and Imperator.

6) As to the question of religion in Warhammer, we expect it will play a role. Religion doesn't in Imperator because Imperator is meant to be a pure sci-fi game. We'd be foolish to do the same here.

7) As a friend of mine at GW says in describing what we want to do with this game, Warhammer will not be happy-clappy land, we'll leave dancing orcs, prancing elves to other guys. 

8) I have a long-standing relationship with a number of the people at GW, and I hold them, and the IP, in the highest regard. Nothing that we are doing is in any way a sign of disrespect for what has gone before. It's a new day, a new vision but the old world.

Best,

Mark Jacobs
President/CEO
Mythic Entertainment

P.S. It's going to be a lot of fun...



Folks,

A few more quick notes:

1) We are not intending to do a "purist" version of a WH-based game. Why? Well, first, there is no such thing. Warhammer is an incredibly rich environment which not only supports various games but the individual games have changed over the decades. Additionally, even if we were going to focus on one particular game (let's say the FRPG) and even on one edition of the rules, there would still be disagreements over things like rule interpretations. I prefer to look at what we are doing in terms of our game(s) being a "true" interpretation of WH. Now, this is not to say that this is the AMAZING, LAST, FINAL and PENULTIMATE TRUE version of WH but rather simple our attempt to create a great game that feels like it belongs to the WH world. Of course, we will disagree over what is true WH or not but that's why we will have lots of help in order to ensure we deliver on what we promise.

2) Both Mythic and GW are in agreement that we can create an RvR game that is based on the WH IP. So, for a little while longer, have some faith that we have way to allow for various sides to beat each other over the heads with really nasty weapons (and magic, don't forget the magic) in a way that fits in with the WH IP. Remember, this world has been around for a long time and if you search the IP carefully, you will see lots and lots of opportunities for all sorts of mayhem. We will talk about how this will work in detail once we get to the next stage of the project.

3) In terms of Mythic running out of money when we are working on this game; no worries there otherwise GW would have gone running off in the opposite direction when we worked this deal out.

4) In terms of the art look, we will not be attempting to recreate WoW nor WO as neither look fits what we want to do here. One of the great things about WH is that it is an incredibly rich world (from an artistic sense) and we can draw on different looks in order to make our vision come to life. The only thing I can assure you is that some of you will disagree with whatever look we pick, that is the nature of this business. No worries though, as long as you keep the rotten fruit and vegetables coming our way along with the criticism, at least we can keep feeding our team late into the night. 

5) To answer Linhart's questions (can't have you burning to death, at least not for two years), yes, this will be an advancement-based system. Even if it is RvR-based, we don't want it to be Warhammer: Doom, this will be an RPG. As to dynamic player-influenced content, yeap, that's part of the plan.

One last little bit before I go is that as we develop this game there will be times where we will disagree with each other. You may think that I or my company are a bunch of barely-skilled chimps who haven't the vaguest idea of what we are doing. While I hope that isn't the case, all I ask is that we are polite and respectful to each other. If that simple request is met, we will continue to be able to engage in discussions and information-sharing here. One of our rules is that the team will never attack any poster personally nor rudely (and if they do, it will never happen again) and I hope that the posters here follow the same rule. If so, we'll get on just fine. Again, I am simply asking that players express themselves in a civilized, polite and professional manner and not that they simply parrot the Mythic/GW line.

It's going to be great, glorious fun and I'm looking forward to the next two years with great anticipation.

Mark



Folks,

Regarding GW's input in the whole design process I think it is safe to say that they will quite involved with it and not just protecting their IP. It's safe to say this because the process has already started. :) We'd be foolish not to try to use all the resources we have at had to do this project and that means talking to some of the GW guys and get their thoughts, ideas, etc. on what they would like to see in this game. While Mythic is indeed driving the design, we are doing that in close consultation with the GW guys. The initial vision for the game may have started with me but by the time it is done, GW, other Mythic personnel and maybe even people who post here and in other places may see some things they suggest in the game. FYI, I'm currently combing through hundreds of pages of documentation from guys at GW and elsewhere to see what ideas can become a part of this game.

In terms of making this game like WoW, not likely. I have the utmost respect for Blizzard and a long-time friendship with a number of people there. Their game is their game, just as this will be our game. I have no more desire to make this game like WoW than I do like EQ, WO or any other game out there. This game needs to stand on its own, apart from what has gone before.

Finally, as to skill-based vs. advancement-based, the game will be advancement-based. Now, do we want the game to feel grindy? Nope, not at all but nor do we want to make it so somebody comes in off the street and can, due to superior reflexes, hardware setup, etc. be able to kill players who have been playing the game for a while. For those gamers, Doom, Unreal, etc. are a better choice than this game will be. At its core, this game will have more in common with an RPG rather than an FPS.

Mark

Warhammer fan site which posted the above.

"People will not assume that what they read on the internet is trustworthy or that it carries any particular ­assurance or accuracy" - Lord Leveson
"Hyperbole is a cancer" - Lakov Sanite
Trippy
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Reply #1 on: May 25, 2005, 04:44:22 AM

Quote
This game will not be DAoC2 with the name of Warhammer attached.
He didn't say anything in those messages to convince me that it's *not* going to be DAoC 2 with the name Warhammer attached.
Daydreamer
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Posts: 456


Reply #2 on: May 25, 2005, 04:47:21 AM

Anyone ever play 40k in 40 min? Given MJ's, and most of Mythic's, talent for verbosity, how about we play 40k in 40 words (or less) with their posts and press releases?

-Insert hollow praise here
-We are not Warhammer Online
-RvR but not DAoC
-No flames plz kthnx
-level based grindage for teh win!
-You will hate our character art
-No twitch 4 you!
-Name dropping makes me cool

1626 words compressed to a measely 38 words

Immaginative Immersion Games  ... These are your role playing games, adventure games, the same escapist pleasure that we get from films and page-turner novels and schizophrenia. - David Wong at PointlessWasteOfTime.com
Llava
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Reply #3 on: May 25, 2005, 06:38:09 AM

And player owned horses will be in at release.

Or the first year.
Or the next expansion.
Or after that, with housing.
Or sometime after the upcoming RvR review.
Or sometime soon but I don't want to say.
Okay, REALLY with this next expansion.  SERIOUSLY.  Dudes, you can trust me.

(Oh and legal wanted me to say that this is all just ballpark and we really have no idea when or if this will ever happen, but seriously- next expansion.)
« Last Edit: May 25, 2005, 06:52:23 AM by Llava »

That the saints may enjoy their beatitude and the grace of God more abundantly they are permitted to see the punishment of the damned in hell. -Saint Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica
Soln
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Reply #4 on: May 25, 2005, 09:17:03 AM

why would I want to wait 2 years for this?
NiX
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Reply #5 on: May 25, 2005, 09:49:38 AM

why would I want to wait 2 years for this?

They're really just giving you time to forget how badly they're going to hurt you.
HaemishM
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Reply #6 on: May 25, 2005, 10:41:07 AM

To shamelessly SirBruce this shit:
Quote
1) This is not a continuation of the Warhammer Online project. Mythic is working closely with GW to create a new vision for a Warhammer online game.

Too bad. They had some interesting ideas.

Quote
2) The development time-line for the game is a tad over 2 years but given our experience and existing code-base (Dark Age of Camelot, Imperator and others), we believe we can meet that schedule.

If you are using the existing codebases, it WILL be DAoC2 with Warhammer Art, unless you rip out everything but the netcode. Which would be a really good idea, BTW.

Quote
3) ... This game will not be DAoC2 with the name of Warhammer attached.

See above.

Quote
4) RvR does not equal PvP. DAoC is not a PvP game and neither will be this game. We want people to be able to roleplay and we also want them to be able to play the game without worrying about getting ganked from the moment they enter the game by someone more powerful than them.

Yes, DAOC IS A PVP GAME. It just happens to have a significantly large and boring and grindy PVE game attached to it, making the biggest factor in PVP success being time invested in the PVE game. But make no mistake, DAOC is a PVP game. It just isn't an OPEN PVP game.

Quote
5) The building and maintaining of community is quite important to Mythic whether it is in the game or out of it. The reason we don't host our own forums is that we either do it well (which means full-time admins, added costs) or we would rather not do it at all. We will consider setting up our own forums for this game but most likely, they will be private to keep the noise level down. Now, if we make them private, we will of course invite all the people who have been participating in forums like these to join us. We will also have ultra-private forums for beta-testers as we do for DAoC and Imperator.

Translation: We will only listen to ourselves and our closest sycophants, just like we did with DAoC.

This isn't necessarily a bad thing, as I think official forums are huge wastes of resources and IQ points. But don't make that sound like it'll be an "open community" because it won't be. DAoC isn't.

Quote
8) I have a long-standing relationship with a number of the people at GW, and I hold them, and the IP, in the highest regard. Nothing that we are doing is in any way a sign of disrespect for what has gone before. It's a new day, a new vision but the old world.

The disrespect in this game isn't from Mythic, it's from GW, who still can't get it through their heads that GW fans want a video game, multiplayer version of the tabletop tactical game. THAT should be the game someone is making. But that's not Mythic's problem.

Quote
1) We are not intending to do a "purist" version of a WH-based game. Why? Well, first, there is no such thing. Warhammer is an incredibly rich environment which not only supports various games but the individual games have changed over the decades. Additionally, even if we were going to focus on one particular game (let's say the FRPG) and even on one edition of the rules, there would still be disagreements over things like rule interpretations. I prefer to look at what we are doing in terms of our game(s) being a "true" interpretation of WH. Now, this is not to say that this is the AMAZING, LAST, FINAL and PENULTIMATE TRUE version of WH but rather simple our attempt to create a great game that feels like it belongs to the WH world. Of course, we will disagree over what is true WH or not but that's why we will have lots of help in order to ensure we deliver on what we promise.

See above.

Quote
5) To answer Linhart's questions (can't have you burning to death, at least not for two years), yes, this will be an advancement-based system. Even if it is RvR-based, we don't want it to be Warhammer: Doom, this will be an RPG. As to dynamic player-influenced content, yeap, that's part of the plan.

HHHHEEEELLLLLLLLLLLLLL-OOOOOOOO GRIND!

Quote
Finally, as to skill-based vs. advancement-based, the game will be advancement-based. Now, do we want the game to feel grindy? Nope, not at all but nor do we want to make it so somebody comes in off the street and can, due to superior reflexes, hardware setup, etc. be able to kill players who have been playing the game for a while. For those gamers, Doom, Unreal, etc. are a better choice than this game will be. At its core, this game will have more in common with an RPG rather than an FPS.

Translation: Pasty-faced gits who hate getting pwned on a regular basis want this game to be all about the numbers on the character sheet. Yes, your level (read: time invested) > everything else. I think RPG stands for ROLL-playing game.

Lame.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2005, 10:44:33 AM by HaemishM »

schild
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Reply #7 on: May 25, 2005, 10:42:30 AM

Oh man, this is gonna bite ass. It's gonna look like last gen shit and it's going to be a fantasy MMO that has nothing in common with Warhammer other than setting.

There's my kind words.

Edit: Really, in my brain it's going to come down to this: It needs to be a HUGE budget AAA title with 3-4 years of proper development time. It won't be.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2005, 11:01:02 AM by schild »
WayAbvPar
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Reply #8 on: May 25, 2005, 12:50:17 PM

If it is anywhere near as grind-y as DAOC, there is exactly zero chance of getting me to play. To this day there are nights I wake up in a cold sweat, the sounds of dying spriggans slowly fading from my ears.

When speaking of the MMOG industry, the glass may be half full, but it's full of urine. HaemishM

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Libertarians make fun of everyone because they can't see beyond the event horizons of their own assholes Surlyboi
Soln
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Reply #9 on: May 25, 2005, 12:53:46 PM

Oh man, this is gonna bite ass. It's gonna look like last gen shit and it's going to be a fantasy MMO that has nothing in common with Warhammer other than setting.

There's my kind words.

Edit: Really, in my brain it's going to come down to this: It needs to be a HUGE budget AAA title with 3-4 years of proper development time. It won't be.

heh maybe that's what they were planning on with Imperator  wink  paste/copy the rendering and combat engine etc. into this new project \


Edit:  BTW anyone else think Jacobs was uncharacteristically talkative?  I don't remember this amount of "Mythic ain't goin' broke" candor before.  Again, I like Mythic's code, some of their execution, and meh to the rest.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2005, 09:33:45 PM by Soln »
penfold
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Reply #10 on: May 25, 2005, 02:31:47 PM

It will be a shiny, pretty RvR game with PVE base, using all the bits from DOAC, WOW and EQ people didnt complain about. It will be the game of the moment for a few months, most likely during beta when its free, then its playerbase will settle and it will be just another mmog, because face it, there's a load about now and even more due. 18 months further down the line we'll have a Lustria or Cathay expansion, including whatever features are popular at the time in the competition.

Ive been playing mmogs since 99 and im sick of the grind now, I even think GW (14 and bored by pve) and WOW (52 and cant face 8 more levels) are too much. I enjoy PVP and love raiding/instances but cant even get a character maxed out anymore, as much as I enjoy the endgame .I cant see my tolerance for pointless grind improving in the next 2 years.

AOFanboi
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Reply #11 on: May 25, 2005, 04:54:57 PM

Can someone get him to say what the "realms" in Warhammer are? You can't have Empire vs. Chaos because Chaos is just over-powerful. The other lands to the west and south of the Empire aren't fleshed out well enough to be usable. And you have conflicts insode the "sides" as well, e.g. Altdorf vs. Middenheim, Nurgle followers vs. Tzeentch (sp?) etc.

So what exactly are the realms? They cannot simply do a DAoC and have three nearly identical sides with sligthly different colors on mob textures for variety.

Current: Mario Kart DS, Nintendogs
Trippy
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Reply #12 on: May 25, 2005, 05:39:42 PM

Can someone get him to say what the "realms" in Warhammer are? You can't have Empire vs. Chaos because Chaos is just over-powerful. The other lands to the west and south of the Empire aren't fleshed out well enough to be usable. And you have conflicts insode the "sides" as well, e.g. Altdorf vs. Middenheim, Nurgle followers vs. Tzeentch (sp?) etc.

So what exactly are the realms? They cannot simply do a DAoC and have three nearly identical sides with sligthly different colors on mob textures for variety.
The easiest way would be to do it like the CCG and just have two sides -- i.e. good vs evil, i.e. human, high/wood elves, dwarves vs. chaos, orcs, dark elves. That would leave out those armies that hate everybody (Lizardmen, Tomb Kings) and those that will join either side (Ogres, Dogs of War). Given their two year development period I really doubt they would try to have three sides like in DAoC.
StGabe
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Reply #13 on: May 25, 2005, 05:56:25 PM

I for one am looking forward to seeing what they can do with this.  I think Mythic got a lot of things really right with DAoC (not everything of course) and enjoyed the game thoroughly during the time I played it.  Mythic remains the one MMO where I've ever been able to really get into the PvP and I think it still has one of the most interesting character development systems around.

The stuff in the letters sounds about right to me.  You can't crack the code to magically determine whether they can pull off what they want in 2 years or not.  It will happen or it won't -- and I'll buy it or I won't.  I read the stuff about using their work on Imperator/DAoC, etc., not as an indictment that this must be DAoC2  but rather that they have a strong team, think they know what they are capable of, and feel up to this challenge.  Only time will tell really.

Gabe.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2005, 05:58:22 PM by StGabe »

Surlyboi
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eat a bag of dicks


Reply #14 on: May 25, 2005, 06:50:54 PM

No Eldar, Space Orks or Geonids?

Fuck that noise. Don't we have enough half-assed fantasy MMOs out there already?

Give us 40k, bitchez.

Tuned in, immediately get to watch cringey Ubisoft talking head offering her deepest sympathies to the families impacted by the Orlando shooting while flanked by a man in a giraffe suit and some sort of "horrifically garish neon costumes through the ages" exhibit or something.  We need to stop this fucking planet right now and sort some shit out. -Kail
Der Helm
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Reply #15 on: May 25, 2005, 07:06:25 PM

Quote
Mythic is working closely with GW to create a new vision for a Warhammer online game.
Sorry, stopped reading after this.

Was there anything else in that article ?

"I've been done enough around here..."- Signe
Johny Cee
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Reply #16 on: May 26, 2005, 12:36:03 AM

The dominating factor in DAoC rvr/pvp was not items.  It was class makeup and group min/maxing,  with a bottleneck on having the right class abilities (speed, resist buffs, cc) and good players at the right classes (mezzer,  healers primarily;  these classes are essential,  and not exciting to play.  Damage dealers could almost be played by monkeys who can tap an /assist key).  Liberally supplemented by out of game aids like radar and TS/Ventrilo.

This is Mythics big chance to redesign the core failures in their pvp system.  There are any number of ideas that suck in implementation in DAoC now,  that Mythic can't get rid of since the cure is worse than the disease.  Primarily:

1. Crowd controls overwhelming importance.  Fights are often decided by who gets off the first mezz.  CC went from a defensive measure to an offensive and game deciding measure.

2. Role of stealthers.  Stealthers have bounced between solo gods and completely useless, depending on latest changes. 

3. Buff(bot) problems.  Bots are too prevalent to crack down on now, and too large a source of revenue

4. Interrupt code.  Casters are hamstrung by the shitty way interrupts work, and have no option for self-defense besides crowd control (see problem 1.)

5. Damage.  DAoC has largely been about frontloading/damage maximaztion.  They tried to back off the 35% increase to damage in pvp/rvr in the first 6 months,  and it never got off Test because of player outcry.

6. Uselessness of some mechanics.  Bolts.  Can't "fix" them,  because then everyone would be getting one/two shot.  Abandoning bolts just completely fucks over classes that use them to a new and probably not much better mechanic

7. Combat system itself.  As has been pointed out in other threads,  DAoC's combat system was cadged together when their attempt to license a developed system fell through.

8. The benefits of group min/maxing.  At any one time,  there are a section of DAoC classes that have no place in pvp.  You NEED to min/max to have a shot.  At different times,  casters and tanks have been relegated to perpetually lfg.  Hybrids generally have always been.  I'd like to see a break from the mold of 4 damage dealers (of min/max class a), 1 mezzer, 2 healers, 1 speed class or buffer.

etc...

The problem you won't see is grind.  The grind in DAoC is worlds better than at release.  And most of the new combat mechanics and classes that have been floated are more than proficient soloers/expers.  I have a vamp at level 48 with a few days played,  all casual.  With a couple lengthy stops in the battlegrounds for pvp. 

Yes, the grind was shit-tacular for the first year and a half....  I'm just saying Mythic has figured out that mistake already.

The prevailing trend is away from grind.  And Mythic always goes with the prevailing trend.

Twitch vs. numbers vs. other systems -- I don't understand the great desire to have twitch mechanics.  It isn't a test of skill,  it's a test of reflexes and learned typing patterns.  Hell, why would a company want to develop an MMO going into twitch mechanics?  You have lots of competition in other FPSs with no monthly fees,  with a high turnover of dominant games.

Honestly,  alot of people who play mmos now would have nothing to do with a twitch system.  I know I wouldn't touch it,  after working all day writing or banging on a keypad at mach 9.  The fingers just wouldn't cooperate.

I'd love to see a mechanic that takes advantage of real stategy or tactics,  and the importance of decision making.  That rewards innovatative play and adaption. 

Right now, closet thing you get is Magic Online.  You get elements of strategy (deck choice and sideboard choice), implentation and decision making (choice of how to use resources, when to use spells/abilities), and luck.  Even in an unfavorable matchup, clever use of your cards can give you a win.  Or good metagaming can give you the right choice of cards to use against prevalent decks.

Margalis
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Reply #17 on: May 26, 2005, 01:22:33 AM

Twitch vs. non-twitch is a  red-herring. Skill is what matters. Whether the skill is twitch skill or strategy or whatever is not really relevant. Most MMORPG playing is simply learning a pattern and repeating it 10,000 times.

I think people get hung up on twitch because nearly all twitch games do require some skill at some level, so they equate the two. My problem with MMORPGs isn't that they lack twitch, it's that they lack any appreciable skill or real decision making.

vampirehipi23: I would enjoy a book written by a monkey and turned into a movie rather than this.
HRose
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Reply #18 on: May 26, 2005, 01:53:58 AM

The prevailing trend is away from grind.  And Mythic always goes with the prevailing trend.
And this not only is absolutely true. But it also summarizes perfectly the whole discussion.

-HRose / Abalieno
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eldaec
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Reply #19 on: May 26, 2005, 02:52:34 AM

Can someone get him to say what the "realms" in Warhammer are?

I'd imagine the realms would be loosely interpreted Empire + allied (Human/dwarves/elves) VS Chaos (Humans, dark elf, skaven) VS Green (Orc/troll/goblin).

You can't do warhammer without chaos, you can't do it without the greens and you can't do it without elves & dwarves.

Things they need to fix from DAoC...

1) Understand what diminishing returns mean and feed it through all design decisions.

2) The trick to character development should be choosing complementary options (CoH, GW, MtG) (they won't get this one)

3) Get rid of long term buffs. In-battle buffs with effectiveness ranges (CoH style) are fine. I hope they'll get this.

4) PvE advancement should be about achieving objectives (GW, Catacombs) not static spawn point grinding. I believe they'll get this.

5) Not a single static spawn point non-instanced quest mob with a timer longer than 5 minutes should exist. Anywhere. Waiting for spawns is not fun. Ever. They won't figure this out.

And btw, contrary to popular belief the deciding factor in DAoC wasn't grind, it was having a hyper-organised group.

Having an organised group and guild made the advantages of ToA and RR *much* less significant. They also made getting ToA and RR bonuses *much* less time consuming.

I'm not saying that necessarily makes the game fun.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2005, 03:30:23 AM by eldaec »

"People will not assume that what they read on the internet is trustworthy or that it carries any particular ­assurance or accuracy" - Lord Leveson
"Hyperbole is a cancer" - Lakov Sanite
Azazel
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Posts: 7735


Reply #20 on: May 26, 2005, 03:00:38 AM

The problem is that twitch mechanics simply don't work well in a MMORPG. If you're too far from the server, or have a less-than-optimal connection then basically, you're fucked, which instantly includes anyone outside the US or Americans posted abroad. Try playing Planetside from Australia or NZ, it just doesn't work well.

As for Warhammer, I think Surlyboi meant Tyranids, not Geonids. Geo's were a Velious-era mob in EQ1. "Biitchez" "Bad-azz" boyz like you get me hot. rolleyes Though I do agree that a 40k-styled game would be a nice change to yet another Fantasy world, it's a far better developed world than anything seen in a fantasy MMO so far, even if it shamelessly steals stereotypes left, right and centre..

schild mumbled something ignorant about the game having nothing in common with Warhammer other then setting.. fucking DUH. If you think that the only thing Warhammer is about is WFB then you're pretty uninformed. ~ The Warhammer world has been around a long time and has a number of different-genre games based around it, which includes Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay which was actually quite a decent system where you went from profession to profession learning more and more skills as you went along, rather then it being a level grind like other RPGs. How Mythic implement levelling or skills is of course anyone's guess.

One thing in their advantage (and it was also in Climax's advantage when they had the game) is that the world is already well developed. This means the game's story (for those who give a shit about more then grinding to max level and power) is already there. No Verant/SoE-style making up new gods or landmasses for each expansion "hey look! another lost continent!" "hey, never heard of Lanys T'Vyl? Well here she is, along with renamed Kerrans, on THE MOON" and so forth.

Similar to that is that pretty much all your character design is already done. Despite WH being in many ways a generic fantasy world, there are also many many finer details that are already worked out. We know what Middenheim Ulric cavalry look like, we know what Black Orcs look like. Sure, you still need to model them, but all the hard design work is done for you. Just look at Dawn of War for this. The only problem is when GW release a new version of the army books for <race> and radically redesign them..

In fact GW has a really tight fist on their IP and so aren't going to let any licencee fuck too much around with their world or background. Expect a Cathay expansion? Not a bloody chance until after GW has done it themselves. You might get Lustria now that GW is doing an army book on it, but don't expect anything GW hasn't already done the hard "official" work on.

If they're doing "realms" then most likely it would be "good" vs "evil". Though they may well do a twist of "good", "evil" and "chaos" since several of the traditionally evil races aren't exactly friendly to chaos. Lizardmen would likely be left out since they're conveniently located on the other (developed) continent, Chaos Dorfs would be excluded as they currently are in WFB. Khemri and N.African Pyramid plundering seems almost perfectly designed to be a PvE expansion. Ogres and any other "neutral" armies could be factored in using the same "yellow-con" system seen in WoW, like the various Goblins or the Argent Dawn..

Of course this is just conjecture, but it could be done well despite the naysayers. And if it turns out to be shit, I won't buy it. Simple.  :-D

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eldaec
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Reply #21 on: May 26, 2005, 03:33:10 AM

Oh, something else Mythic will need to do, but won't, is turn on collision detection.

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Soln
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Reply #22 on: May 26, 2005, 09:16:25 AM

Oh, something else Mythic will need to do, but won't, is turn on collision detection.


and radar?  or at least a terrain map?
Hoax
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Reply #23 on: May 26, 2005, 09:39:40 AM

Something else mythic will need to do and wont, is make it fun.

A Warhammer game where I can't...

-watch lines of bolt throwers, orc catapults or empire cannons unleash hell from a hillside overlooking a battle.

-use more thinking then /stick /assist /fucktard on/off.

-have good cavalry combat, like Mount&Blade good.

-avoid camping/farming some stupid mob to get a magic item everyone uses.

Anyways I read the smartest thing Gamespy has ever said the other day, they got back from E3 and said something like:
"thank god for WoW because it perfected the shitty EQ-clone genre of mmog's so well that now people are actually trying to use some originality"

Mythic fucking sucks at originality, Holy PVE Space Romans proves my fucking point nicely here I believe.

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HaemishM
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Reply #24 on: May 26, 2005, 10:32:05 AM

The Warhammer fantasy game was somewhat different than normal fantasy RPG's. But if you think they'll actually use a PNP system in an MMOG, you are high. Very high.

If it's advancement-based as opposed to skill-based, the BEST you could hope for is something similar to DAoC, which had a decent skill system. It was unfortunately chained to a crappy level system, but /meh. It can work if the leveling doesn't suck. Which it will, because DAoC had some of the weakest PVE around.

There are a lot of things this game SHOULDN'T be, considering the license and the world. Hell, if they translated Mordheim to an MMOG, it would probably be better than trying to put some bastardized RPG together. But based on past experience with Mythic (and keep in mind I like Mythic as a company) and the MMOG genre, as well as past experience with GW, what it will be is probably nothing like any of the current GW games, and it will likely be some weird-ass Frankenstein monster of a game that doesn't do anything more than moderately well.

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Reply #25 on: May 26, 2005, 03:02:33 PM

I am not on the cynical side of the Mythic house.  I beta'd and played DAOC for a good amount of time.  The grind got to me, and to be honest the PvE side is pretty damn lame.  However, overall the look and feel of the game was wonderful; with the only caviat being the walk/run pace being way the fuck to slow.  Looking at DAOC and COH is like comparing snails and cheetahs.  I will not play another MMOG that does not at least match the movement speed of WOW, which is the slowest I will accept now.

I am looking forward to how they present the game.  Right now the only game on the horizon I have any desire to try out is Conan.  Even City of Villians does not pique my interest anymore.  I have a good friend that will be playing, so that could change.  Warhammer is a wonderfully rich world that provides a very dark and gothic atmosphere I find very appealing.  I used to GM the Warhammer Roleplaying game for quite a bit of time, going both the light and chaos side.  I hope that the underlying structure is kept, but unless Mythic changes direction will be based on the bloody level treadmil.  Hopefully if it is level based they will at least make it a quick leveling.  If as has been expounded they go with Empire/Green/Chaos as a three realm set, then I will be in alt hell.

Wonder if Lum will drop a word or two?

"I have come to believe that a great teacher is a great artist and that there are as few as there are any other great artists. Teaching might even be the greatest of the arts since the medium is the human mind and spirit." John Steinbeck
tazelbain
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tazelbain


Reply #26 on: May 26, 2005, 03:19:30 PM

Wonder if Lum will drop a word or two?
WWLD?


on corp, he said he knew nothing.

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Fargull
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Reply #27 on: May 26, 2005, 04:16:10 PM

Hmm.. have not been reading Corp for a while.  Would be nice to hear what Scott thinks of the GW world, not how it necissarily relates to Mythic, but how it would fit into the MMOG space.  Course, might be better if that discussion focused on a IP not associated with Mythic as too many arrows at the dark could fall on it.

"I have come to believe that a great teacher is a great artist and that there are as few as there are any other great artists. Teaching might even be the greatest of the arts since the medium is the human mind and spirit." John Steinbeck
HaemishM
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Reply #28 on: May 26, 2005, 04:34:49 PM

From more of the link posted above:

Quote
Folks,

Just so we have our definitions straight:

1)Grindy - Actions (quests, NPC hunting) which must be repeated ad nauseum in order to progress through levels. These actions, which on an individual level might be fun, when put back to back are anything but fun. By my defintion, RvR is not grinding (since it *can* be different all the time) but RvR can certainly be dull. The trick is to make RvR as fun as possible and not grindy.

2) Skill-based game - A game which relies on the individual ability of the player alone and not on statistics, abilities, etc. on the player's avatar to determine success. Doom, Unreal, etc. would be examples of skill-based games. These games are also referred to as "twitch" games.

3) Level-based game - A game which relies on the statistics, abilities, etc. of a player's avatar to determine his success. Advancement can be tied to avatar skills directly (Skill System = Lookee, I have a 55% chance now to hit with my axe) or by level (Level System = I'm level 10, I hit 55% with all my weapons). Almost all CRPGs (there may be exemptions though none come to mind) are level-based games as is the Warhammer Fantasy.

As of now, I see this game being a level-based game that utilizes a robust skill system as part of an over-arching career system. I also want Mythic to create a game that you can play as an individual or as part of a group. Obviously, the WHFB system is geared to armies and the WHF ruleset is geared to small groups. What I can tell you now is that the RvR scheme that we are looking at would involve things that you can do a) solo; b) with a small group; c) with a large group and in big-hunking battles. The game will also include lots of things you can do without having to go into battle against other people.

Also, please, please I ask you all down on bended knee not to read too much into things you might think I am saying, hinting at, etc. in my posts. That leads to confusion, confusion leads to stress, stress leads anger and anger, well, that leads to counseling, lawsuits and hurt itty-bitty feelings and you know, we can't have any of that here! :)

Level-based game with a skill system that is part of an over-arching career system. And that'll be unlike DAoC... how, exactly?

Nothing he has said makes me think it will differ in gameplay from DAoC dramatically enough for me to want to play it.

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Reply #29 on: May 26, 2005, 08:01:48 PM

Quote
Almost all CRPGs (there may be exemptions though none come to mind) are level-based games as is the Warhammer Fantasy.

Vampire: Bloodlines.  And Redemption too, I think.

And, to repeat something mothers have been saying for thousands of years, "Just because everyone else is doing it, does not mean it is a good idea."  An easy idea, a low-risk idea, maybe.  But not necessarily a good one.

The reason level-based games have been popular in PnP for so long is that they are very easy to play.  They have relatively low barriers to entry as far as required math skills.

When the numbers are being handled by a computer, that benefit becomes moot.  There are much better systems out there, RPG Devs!  Please, stop with the quasi-DnD v1,200,000.5.  Please, for the children.

Alkiera

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Reply #30 on: May 26, 2005, 10:31:07 PM

The Warhammer fantasy game was somewhat different than normal fantasy RPG's. But if you think they'll actually use a PNP system in an MMOG, you are high. Very high.

I wish I did think they'd use a skill-based system. I got the impression that was what the Climax project was, until GW got impatient and pulled the plug on them, and Mythic keep saying "we are not WH online" so sadly I don't think we'll see it. It would have been a nice change from level-grinding though. I agree with you on GW's internal issues though.

The game's description also sounds a lot like Dark Age of Warhammer so far.. I guess we'll have to wait awhile and see. And see if GW gets impatient again..  rolleyes though I'd guess they're looking at the success of WoW and salivating, thinking that they'll tap the untouched market of Warhammer fanbois who religiously buy the minis the way WoW tapped the Battle:net crowd.

Az

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daveNYC
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Reply #31 on: May 26, 2005, 10:51:00 PM

I'll go out on a limb and make the assumption that they will not be using the Warhammer magic system.  Which is unfortuante because nothing balances out incredible godlike power like the chance to summon a pissed off demon, or go batshit crazy.

If the magic isn't as dangerous to the user as it is to the target, it isn't going to be Warhammer in any way, shape, or form.
chinslim
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Reply #32 on: May 26, 2005, 11:23:02 PM

Quote
I'll go out on a limb and make the assumption that they will not be using the Warhammer magic system.  Which is unfortuante because nothing balances out incredible godlike power like the chance to summon a pissed off demon, or go batshit crazy.

But you can bet it'll be on a half-hour timer.  That's Mythic balance!
eldaec
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Reply #33 on: May 27, 2005, 02:38:03 AM

But you can bet it'll be on a half-hour timer.  That's Mythic balance!

Again you are referring to game mechanics that Mythic themselves have acknowedged as being an error.

See: Dev notes in New Frontiers where they explained why all the 30 minute timer abilities were disappearing.

Quote
GW got impatient and pulled the plug on them

Reading around the stories about the cancellation, I've seen a number of posts/articles that suggest there was more to it than that.

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Azazel
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Reply #34 on: May 27, 2005, 06:30:09 AM

Details? I wasn't following their dev very closely. One day it suddenly seemed to be cancelled, and then shortly afterwards Climax said they were continuing development without any financial abcking from GW...

Az

http://azazelx.wordpress.com/ - My Miniatures and Hobby Blog.
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