Alternatives to DKP

[Sairon]

The first couple of trips to MC was really fun, it actually takes skill to kill the bosses. 1 guy doing something wrong can easily fuck up the entire raid, everybody needs to be well informed and do their things properly. When I started playing WoW I was really looking forward to the promised PvP aspect, and thought that I would force myself to do some end game raiding for some phats and help out the guild. Well it turns out I enjoyed raiding MC more than I enjoy warsong/alterac.

Sure MC becomes routine after a while, when you've beaten a boss a couple of times and people become familiar with them it's just to go in and slay them. But when you fight bosses for the first couple of times, it's really exciting. The first few attempts you're pretty much prepared to wipe and concentrate on analyzing to see what can be done better next attempt. We have all 40 guys on voice com to dicuss/give orders and it works really well. And even if conquest was pretty fast to release their strategies we pretty fast came up with variations which we found working better for us.

My guild uses a system where we award 1 DKP for every hour spent and 3 DKP for a boss kill. Awarding 1 point every hour is more representetive of time and effort spent raiding perhaps, but to award some extra points for actually killing bosses means people have more motivation to stay until the boss actually is slain. While we have seen some inflation due to the fact that we started out with 0 DKP, it has pretty much stabilized now. I recommend giving everybody 70 DKP when you start the system to avoid this. To distribute the loot we use a biding system which is open. In the end the guy who valued the item highest gets it. And this is pretty much the charm of the system, people can prioritize and choose. We use a minimum value, but it's way below what the items are really worth. This is done to avoid warlocks for example to get pimped out with their class specific loot extremly fast and have tons of points over to get cross class loot. To administrate we have a page ( http://www.mmorpgs.org/refusion/dkp/ ) where everyone can view their points and for raid leaders to administrate. This also makes it way harder for leaders to cheat the guild by toying around with the numbers, since it's all open on the site to see where all points come from and on what they've been spent on.

Overall I've found DKP superior to /random in every single way. And it's not really so complex, all the average raider needs to understand is that he gets 3 points for a boss and 1 point per hour, and that if he bids highest on an item he wins it. Hardly requires a math degree.

[WindupAtheist]

Jesus, what sort of fucking catass bullshit is this?  My "endgame" is making a new character.

[Zetor]

I agree with WU--

fuck.



-- Z.

[Sogrinaugh]

Overall I've found DKP superior to /random in every single way. And it's not really so complex, all the average raider needs to understand is that he gets 3 points for a boss and 1 point per hour, and that if he bids highest on an item he wins it. Hardly requires a math degree.

Would you care to explain exactly how or why its better?

My guild's loot system acknowledges 2 types of loot:  End-game and Freeroll.  End-game items are items that you will use in a given item slot untill every single other person in the guild has one in that slot (who can take advantage of it).  Thus, once you win Azuresong Mageblade, for example, you are unable to roll on any other weapons untill every single other caster has an end-game weapon (though of course you can roll on offhands).

Free-roll items are items that NO ONE IN THE WHOLE GUILD (or of a given class) wants as an end-game item.  For these items, officers assign, based primarily on who has least and who would actually equip the item untill they win whatever item they want for thier "end-game" (like this weekend, Arcanist crown dropped and was asigned to a mage who didn't want it as end-game, but who had 0 epic's).  If it could go to any of a number of people, the officers (consists of 5 people, at least 4 of whom are almost always on) asign people who may roll.  You can have no more then 1 free-roll item per slot.

Occasionally, items drop that suck so bad no one wants them as thier end-game or freeroll (the claw that magmadar drops, the polearm/bow thingy that the guy after shazzrah drops).  These items are /random 100 for by pretty much anyone who can equip it.

Additionally, common sense applies.  We don't allow dickheads into the guild who dont understand thier class, so we dont have rogues rolling on fast weapons for thier mainhand, or hunters rolling against rogues on daggers for the equip bonus... (not end-game items anyway).

I find the DKP system extremely distasteful, due to how it seems to come from and encourage a sense of entitlement.  "I've been here MORE, i DESERVE this item" seems so fucking infantile.

The way i see loot is, if you win, great, if you dont, DEAL.  Everyone is allowed a "omg u hax, plz die fuxx0r" when they lose a roll, but after that shut the fuck up about it.  Everyone will eventually get thier loot, all the roll actually does is determine who gets it first, and each person who wins is 1 less roller you are competing with next time, so each person who wins a given item makes it increasingly more likely that you will win the next (though some items, like talisman of ephemeral power, are desired by so many classes that this effect will be extremely slow).

I also dislike how with DKP, you can just save up points for a long time to out-bid anyone on a given item.  It reminds me of someone browsing in a store forever before purchasing a single item.  This sort of behavior is fine... IF YOU'RE A WOMAN.

Anal-retentive bean-counting ftl.

[Ironwood]

I also dislike how with DKP, you can just save up points for a long time to out-bid anyone on a given item.  It reminds me of someone browsing in a store forever before purchasing a single item.  This sort of behavior is fine... IF YOU'RE A WOMAN.

I agreed with the rest of your post, but this was the wind beneath my wings. 

[Sairon]

First of all it's superior because it leaves people with the ability to prioritize, when it's /random 100 everybody rolls if they can equip it ( well sort of atleast ). Some DKP systems use a fixed value on items which people pays, but I'm totaly against that sorta stuff, an item is worth exactly the ammount of DKP as people are willing to bid on it. In reality DKP awards the same ammount of loot / effort as /random 100 does. I don't think it turns it into a job sort of deal, I've never felt it like that atleast.

It's more like DKP earns you items in the same way as crafting does, while /random 100 is the non-raid instance way of doing it. With crafting you can pretty much meassure up when you're geting the item because you know how long it will take to gather the materials. With the non-raid instances you can get whatever you're looking for the first run, or you can get unlucky and not get what you want until raid no 100. I see the fact that you can save up points a really large strength, the tactic to stay on top with points and get all the super loot doesn't work that well in practice. 1 reason being that there's so much good loot, and even if you have the most points and something nice drops you're hardly going to get it for free. We've never seen a scenario where for example 7 shamans has close to zero points and then 1 last shaman has 100s of points, there's always someone with a decent ammount of points to push up the price.In fact those who use that tactic have the least number of phats.

In the end it's not really "I've been here MORE, i DESERVE this item", it's more like "I happen to want this item and CURRENTLY have more points than you, the only thing you can do about it this time around is to make me pay all your points +1"

[SurfD]

I also dislike how with DKP, you can just save up points for a long time to out-bid anyone on a given item.  It reminds me of someone browsing in a store forever before purchasing a single item.  This sort of behavior is fine... IF YOU'RE A WOMAN.

I agreed with the rest of your post, but this was the wind beneath my wings.

This also only works on a "DKP Bid" system.  If your system is NOT based on Bidding a Number, things are a bit more fairly balanced. 

A classic example of why "DKP Bids" are screwed was a post I spotted somewhere where a Warrior bid on a weapon that everyone seems to consider a Rogue exclusive item.  The Warrior bid 50 pts, the Rogue 40 and the Warrior won and then the Rogue went and pissed and moaned on the forums that he was "Ninjad" out of his weapon when it was his own damn fault for trying to undercut the item and bid low in hopes of being the only bidder.

The system we use basicly uses your accumulated DKP as a "Buffer" to give you a higher overall Roll. We still /random, but your Random Range is influenced by your Accumulated DKP. Seems to be a bit more friendly in granting even distribution of loot then the Bid model.

In the end it's not really "I've been here MORE, i DESERVE this item", it's more like "I happen to want this item and CURRENTLY have more points than you, the only thing you can do about it this time around is to make me pay all your points +1"

I think the idea of Non Fixed value on items is a totally fucked way to spend DKP, mainly because of the asstardery (like the above example) it encourages.  An item should have a fixed value, agreed upon by your guild, which you spend in DKP.  This allows for the devalueing of items for unforseen occurances.  Example: Our guild was recently awarding some of the caster offhands from MC at rediculously high DKP costs.  New patch comes along and adds a wider variety of them, as well as increaseing their drop rate.  As a result, we simply adjusted the cost of the item downwards to reflect a more accurately balanced cost and refunded some DKP.

If you go exclusively with the "Bid what you think its worth" policy, you also end up with problems like thje following: There are only 2 warlocks in our MC runs, and they both got 90% of their MC Set Gear for dirt cheap, while the Mages have been spending DKP like mad cause there is so much competition for the gear.  As a result, the Locks now have an overwhelming advantage over the Mages should Cross class items drop.

[TheWalrus]

 Sucks you can't trust people enough to run a straight NBG freeroll.  But then, I'm one of those casual gamers with excuses.

[Zetor]

My guild does NBG and has a fair-ish loot system otherwise (alpha on crap greens, greed on boe blues and stuff like righteous orbs -- if you've already won a greed roll, you pass until everyone won, if you won a REALLY expensive greedroll like a boe epic that nobody needs, you pass all your greed rolls from then on, etc), so everyone wins at least SOMETHING each raid or instance run. This helps keep the morale up -- I remember the 20+ pickup UBRS raids I've attended where the only thing I had to show for it in the end was 6 runecloth and a 2g repair bill, heh. Sure my guild won't do MC or BWL, but we'll do Gurubashi when it comes out...


-- Z.

[Rasix]

Sucks you can't trust people enough to run a straight NBG freeroll.  But then, I'm one of those casual gamers with excuses.

God, it has to be said at least once anytime someone drags uber guild loot distribution out for discussion, doesn't it?

This is the fucking internet.  I don't trust a goddamn soul here.  Hell, it's not even a question of trust for most people in that situation. It's effort, time, and right.  If I ever jump back into the whole uber guild shebang, it'll be DKP or nothing at all. Dice suck almost worse than people.   

And stop it with the "unfrozen caveman lawyer" bit, just because you're casual, doesn't mean you can't see the use of putting a system in place to curb the baser instincts of 40-60 complete strangers all fighting for the last tater tot.

edit: Yes, not having a computer right now makes me cranky.  I could all scare you and post my rant I wrote for doucebag week but never finished.  Vile it was.

[Calantus]

If I played only with close friends and family there's no way in hell we'd roll for MC loot. It's not about trust, it's about not letting random distribution randomly fuck people over. It's not fun to have put in the same amount of work as someone and not have any epics to your name when they have 5-6 just because of the dice. It's already random enough with class loot drops. Right now there are hunters with no loot at all (I think we've had 3 hunter loots drop) whereas the only shaman with less than 4 epics is me and only because I missed a 6-epic-haul last run (1 BoP off each of the first 3 bosses, also 3 bracers dropping).

I'd also have to say I don't like bidding, it seems like a system that is just begging to cause conflict. You can't NOT ride up a price because then someone just needs to get up to an unassailable DKP total and just win and win and win because everyone knows they can't outbid them. So you get situations where everyone knows it is going to a certain person, but they are having to bid against someone who is riding the bid up just to blow your points. Some people don't understand that this is how it's supposed to work and get butthurt. It also wastes alot of time and quite frankly, I want my non-boss-fight-time kept to a minimum because while they are enjoyable enough, the rest of Molten Core makes me want to slash my wrists.

I think that a DKP-like system with set prices for each item is my personal favourite. Take everyone that wants the item, compare their DKP earned to their DKP spent and then award it to whoever has the highest number. Our guild uses something similar, only all epics count exactly the same which means alot of people don't want to call need on the lesser epics. What this does mean is you can pickup the lesser items real easy, but it doesn't sit completely right to me.

[HaemishM]

Sucks you can't trust people enough to run a straight NBG freeroll.  But then, I'm one of those casual gamers with excuses.

When it comes to loot, you can't trust a goddam soul unless you have the physical ability to choke the living shit out of them. People with no business doing so will step over their grandmother's grave if it meant they got a new shiney. I've never been so disgusted with people than when I was trying to set up a fair NBG loot policy for my EQ guild back in the day.

[Bunk]

Most of my guild works in the same building, so yes, we can choke the ever loving shit out of one another if neccessary.

[TheWalrus]

  Well, for my group NBG works just fine. We aren't the leet fellas that the uber guys are, but we've been gamin together for almost seven years. Yeah I trust em. Anyone else that jumps on the horse will take quite a while for me to get used to, but even then, I don't really care that much.

 As far as the unfrozen caveman lawyer. Ooga booga. I never advocated a complete void of a system. Wait...nope didn't. I totally understand the use for one. My statement stands. It does suck you can't count on the next guy to turn into the Cookie Crisp Crook when something of even minor value drops, whether he can use it or not.

And while I like tater tots, I have the vision to steal the fucking ketchup, so it doesn't do them any good to take the last one. :P

[SurfD]

I think the general idea of DKP is that it only gets used in specific instances.  Of course we dont use DKP for EVERYTHING, we NBG or whatever in regular 5/10 man instance runs (Scholo, Strath, DM, etc) Its only when you are running the Major, 40 man, 6 +hour raid instances like Ony, MC and BWL that a system like DKP becomes somewhat required.

[chinslim]

Jesus, what sort of fucking catass bullshit is this?  My "endgame" is making a new character.

I currently spend ~9 hours total per week playing WoW doing a full MC clear including Rag, and Onyxia.  I don't think that falls within the definitions of catassing.

Thanks to DKP, I've been in a stable raiding group that's lasted for 6 months now.  Raids leave and end as scheduled and I don't need to waste hours LFG.

Granted, the DKP ssytem is dependent on one catass to lead and account for the whole raid group...but that's 1 guy out of 50.

[El Gallo]

I currently spend ~9 hours total per week playing WoW doing a full MC clear including Rag, and Onyxia.  I don't think that falls within the definitions of catassing.

Thanks to DKP, I've been in a stable raiding group that's lasted for 6 months now.  Raids leave and end as scheduled and I don't need to waste hours LFG.

Granted, the DKP ssytem is dependent on one catass to lead and account for the whole raid group...but that's 1 guy out of 50.

You will never get through to your casual gamer board warrior.  Right now, their minds are going "but...but....but....you have shinier loot than I...that must mean you live in the game and shit in a sock...it must, it must mean that... entire...worldview... shattered...must...repress...and post another "WAHHH BLIZZ ONLY LOVES CATASSES" thread."

[HaemishM]

The casual player rarely has anything in common with a well-organized group of people.