Alternatives to DKP

[Slayerik]

Anyone in a guild that uses DKP or a variation of it? My guild uses it and it seems pretty good, but there are some complaints. Im looking for something besides random 100 and plain jane DKP to help with loot distribution. Here is our DKP site if anyone is interested in helpin out...

http://dkp.m-n-m.net/viewnews.php

Thanks,

Slayerik 60 Priest, Leader of Morituri Nolumus Mori (Shadow Moon Horde)

[Rasix]

DKP Loot Rules

DKP Raid Definition:

1. A raid posted on this board by an officer under Raids and Events. Normal raid times are 7pm-12am PST weekdays and anytime weekends.
-. A target of opportunity raid announced by an officer over guild channel and posted in guild MOTD.
-. Friendly raids organized by a member, or pick-up raids, are not DKP raids, and thus subject only to the raid leaders loot rules.
-. Loot process for Joint raid will be determined at the time of the raid based on discussions with the other guild(s). Points will be earned for the raid, however.


Earning Points

- DKP points will be awarded for raids attended based on time. Each person showing up for a raid will have his main credited with 1 point for the first hour, and 1 point for every hour afterward. On particularly long raids(those that last longer than 5 hours) 2 points will be awarded to those who finish the raid when the raid leader / guild leader calls the raid finished.
- A DKP point may be awarded at any time for special deeds by the Guild Leader / Raid Leader. This may be a reward for good deeds, long term loyalty, certain two-box requests, desired activity, etc. In general, however, this will be rare.
- Probationary raids count as points, however probationary members are not eligible to loot.
- Bots attending raids will be awarded 1 point per raid, total. Only those bots approved by the officers will be allowed to accumulate points.


Bidding Process

- Only mains, bots, or characters requested for a raid may bid. Bids are /tells to an officer assigned to auction the loot (assigned at raid). Once bids are received, the officer will tell the raid the current bid for the item. All present will have a chance to increase the bid on the item, up to the maximum current DKP they have earned, which is the amount posted on the guild's website roster. Characters requested for the raid may bid for either the requested character or for the main.
- Officers will call current bids over the raid channel as soon as recieved, as quickly as possible. Tying bids will not be accepted once a current bid is announced unless it is your maximum DKP earned.
- Minimum bid is 2 points on all loot, even if only one person can use the item. Officers reserve the right to increase the minimum bid should the situation warrant. Bids will be rejected where misuse is apparent.
- A 30 Second warning will be given before bid is official and over. We will try to make total time from bid to award 90 seconds.
- If a tie remains after the bidding ends, the drop will be lotto'd to the high bidders. The winner will be charged the DKP amount bid plus 1 point. This may make his total negative if the bid was his maximum DKP total.
- You may only bid on one item per bidding situation. You may also be asked to loot only one piece of uber loot per raid. Situations may arise where multiple pieces are acceptable, such as class specific items.
- We take overbidding very seriously. Officers attempt to check for overbids during the bidding process, but it is ultimately a member's responsibility to know his DKP and to check it for correctness before each raid. Abuse of this system can lead to discipline at the officers' discretion.
Also any overbidding by a person will result in a penalty of 5 dkp for that person. This is a strict penalty for a reason,when someone overbids, they will know that they basicly wont get credit for the next raid.

Spell Loot
-Spells and high end schematics will be refferred to as spells in this section, since both are scribed in a similiar fassion.
- Highly sought and rare spells will be bid as normal.
- Highest priority will be given to a character who can scribe the spell immediately; officer judgement will apply.
- A spell may be awarded to a character within 2 levels of scribing if the player has better participation than more appropriately leveled characters, or if the higher-level characters have recently won something.
- If no casters present at the event are within 2 levels of scribing the spell, it will be banked and awarded to the first caster who needs it and obtains the required level.
- A spell will not be awarded to a character more than 2 levels lower than that required for a spell except in the most extreme situations.
-Spells are also not subject to a one loot per target restriction.


Special Case Loot

- Generic quest items may be lotto'd if not of a sufficient value to auction.
* The raid leader / guild leader reserves the right to OAL special items for a specific need within the guild. We are here to succeed as a team. In order to further the team, sometimes it is necessary to assign an item to make the guild stronger. When possible, this will be called ahead of time.


Hand-me-downs and the Guild Bank

- The guild bank will hold all green/spell drops that arent bid on or wanted by those currently raiding
- The contents of the guild bank in refferrence to green items will be offered to members at meetings, the items not wanted will then be dissenchanted.
-Spell and recipes in the bank may only be given to those who can scribe it at that time. Spells will be bid on normally in the raid and will


DKP Notes

* Have fun bidding! Encourage others to do the same.
* Raid Points will be posted here. You are responsible to check for accuracy and notify an officer within 1 week if a mistake has been made.
* Deguilding, by the player or by an officer, will result in the player's DKP being set to 0.
* The selling of droppable items within 90 days of the raid earned is prohibited without officer permission.
* An officer interested in bidding on an item will not be asked to auction that item.
* Wherever possible, if an item is to be looted to be destroyed (i.e. enchanter loot), it will be done so by a class that cannot use
* These rules may be modified at any time in the future to improve the system.


Cash Loot

- Cash loot will go to the guild bank to fund events and character upgrades , repairs for the wariors who attend the raids, and ankhs for shaman.


Guests

- When guests (non-Broken) are on a raid with us, in almost all cases they will not be eligible to roll on loot and will be informed of this at the beginning of the raid. Exceptions to this rule might include when a specific person has been asked to attend and is deemed critical to the success of the raid or when a large proportion of the raid force
is non-Broken. Guests will naturally be considered when an item is going to go to the enchanters. If eligible guests are in attendance, loot will be handled as follows:

- When an item drops and everyone asks to be considered for it, eligible guests will have a fair proportional chance at the item. This gives eligible guests a fair shot at loot while still considering that it is a Broken event.

I don't know if that sounds too complicated, but it really isn't. 

-You get 1 DKP point per hour of the raid you attend. 
-Most set items start at 2 points.  Interested parties bid from there.   
-Members bid first, then applicants and guests.   Alts bid as applicants (initiates).  This part does piss me off as my rogue is STILL considered my alt.

Only thing that may be a little problematic is that under-represented classes get stuff for dirt cheap (my shaman has spent only 2 points more than my rogue (6 items v. 1 for rogue)).  Shaman and druids often get stuff for a lot less than normal folk do.  Hunter gear can go for over 70 at times where druids get their stuff for bare minimum (rarely 2 per raid).

[SurfD]

Our guild uses a Semi DKP in equals DKP out system based mostly on loot drops.  (why award dkp for killing a particular boss, when no one cares about the bosses, but rather the loot that they drop) (of course, this has the negative effect that we always have WAYY too many people turn out for Onyxia because she is a fast encounter with a high number of valuable loot drops)

For example, if a boss always drops 3 pieces of loot worth a total of 200 dkp, then the raid gets 200/40 = 5 dkp per attendee.

DKP is accumulated, and used to roll on a tiered scale of incriments of 50 (roll your dkp, rounded up to the nearest 50, max of 300).  If you have 105 stored dkp, then when you roll on that piece of gear, you roll out of 150, if you have 200, you roll 200)

Inflation is sort of covered by the fact that we currently do not grant DKP for epics dropped by the MC trash mobs.  If a molten  giant drops a belt of Wrath, dkp is lost, but none is gained when it is rewarded.

[ajax34i]

If I remember correctly, our old EQ guild used a DKP system which awarded points per hour, to encourage people to stay longer, but the bidding was done without bidding.  If you wanted an item, you indicated you were in, and your full DKP total was used as your bidding number. 

The loot items were priced so that getting one would put the average raid participant at 0 DKpoints left in the bank.   Obviously, catasses would accumulate more points than the average weekend raider, and would thus win more (as they'd have the highest totals) or even be able to bid on two items (go from 400 to 200 on the first bid and then still be the highest bidder with 200 in the bank for the second item) but that was ok because they were supposedly participating more.

You could go negative (item costs 200, I only have 50, but because everyone bid already I'm the highest even with just 50, so I'm in, and I'm getting the item, taking my bank down to -150).  But then you were excluded from bids until you accumulated a positive balance, to prevent the whole guild from just going negative infinity.  And also to give invitees and tag-alongs a chance at loot (they'd have 0 balance, higher than your -150).  Obviously they'd have to /random, since their totals were tied at 0.

The advantage was that there was very little rolling, you just decided if you wanted to blow your points or keep them.  Before going into the raid, anyone could see the totals of everyone, and thus figure out their chance at an item, thus there'd be little bickering.  Officers would do the calculations and keep the totals.

[Trippy]

Anyone in a guild that uses DKP or a variation of it? My guild uses it and it seems pretty good, but there are some complaints. Im looking for something besides random 100 and plain jane DKP to help with loot distribution. Here is our DKP site if anyone is interested in helpin out...

What are the complaints?

[Paelos]

I've always thought DPK should add on points to your rolls. That's all.

[chinslim]

What are the complaints?

Probably that the casual gamers who only go every once in a blue moon are not allowed the chance to complete their purple set in 1 raid.

[Sogrinaugh]

What are the complaints?

Probably that the casual gamers who only go every once in a blue moon are not allowed the chance to complete their purple set in 1 raid.

Might also have something to do with the fact that no one pays a monthly fee to be a fucking secretary/accountant.  Who the fuck wants to bother with keeping track of running tallies, who's keeping track of the guy who's keeping track (i sure as hell wouldn't trust such a system sans checks n balances).

My guild loot policy goes thus:  When an epic drops, if it specifally says YOUR CLASS on the item, you may roll if you do not already have an epic for that item slot.  Once you have an epic for a given slot, you can't roll on another untill everyone else (in your class) has an epic for that slot.  Once you have a class-specific epic of a given set, you may not roll on epics from the other class-specific set for your class.

For items that do not specifally say a given class (example:  Brutality Blade), we take a poll of who wants and will use it as thier end-game, main-hand weapon.  In our case, no warrior, hunter, or rogue wanted it for thier main-hand end-game weapon.  So we polled who would want it for off-hand, most of the rogues rolled.  The guy that won it can no longer roll on epic weapon off-hands.

If an epic drops, and  no one wants it for thier "end-game" epic piece (this happend when Arcanists Robe dropped and also with amberseal keeper) a "free" roll is permitted, meaning anyone who would use the item is permitted to roll, with the difference being in this case that it doesn't count against the item slot, meaning the person who won the robe or the staff would still be allowed to roll on another (better) epic, for those slots.

This system works pretty well for us.

[Paelos]

I've always hated DKP because a straight system doesn't encourage attendance. Rather, it discourages people from coming along by smashing all chance of them getting a single thing out of the raid. That is why I advocate the roll enhancement system. You still roll on items, but high attendance and/or guild member roll with a higher cap.

[schild]

After reading about this nonsense, I can only say this:

If you're playing with such a non-friendly guild (or raid group) that you all can't just distribute items without bickering, you're taking the game too seriously.

If you're playing with a group of people that needs some sort of mechanical device to decide who gets what and why, you should just stay away from the game.

This is all far too serious and far too lame. It's the kind of thing I see and think that the game has become too much like a job. I'd rank taking a game this seriously just under Larping and writing fanfiction with furries dressed as Captain Kirk.

This has nothing to do with World of Warcraft, but rather any game in which people use this system.

Edit: (and let me just say, I'm an admitted loot whore, but I can't think of a time I took something that I couldn't SOMEHOW use to further whatever toon I was playing.)

[Paelos]

Put 40 people in a room and make a decision Schild. Any decision. It's not freaking easy with no guidelines. Your comments don't work on any level, gaming or otherwise. People need some system in place when you add that many variables into anything.

[schild]

Put 40 people in a room and make a decision Schild. Any decision. It's not freaking easy with no guidelines. Your comments don't work on any level, gaming or otherwise. People need some system in place when you add that many variables into anything.

If I were designing a raid endgame style thing that took hours and the combined effort of 40 people, you can be damn sure that every single person would get an item they could use, possibly a choice of an item from 3 different sets so they could really get what they want. You reward this sort of effort, not make it a fucking pain in the ass.

I don't want to go on 100 raids to get the set of 8 items I want. Hell, I don't want to go on more than 8 raids to get the set of items I want. It's just bad design. I mean, it makes sense on the surface, but if more of this shit binds on pickup, who gives a fuck. Give the players what they deserve. Including that Leroy fellow over there.

[El Gallo]

Well, you don't use DKP to keep people from taking things they won't use (the shit is for the most part bind on pickup anyway), just to figure out to whom it goes of the many people who want it and will use it.  If you farm things a lot, it really just determines the order in which you get things.

Just getting along and having everything go where it goes works well if you are a very tight group of players who play the game similarly (Fires of Heaven, for example, does not use DKP).

It's a bit different when you have a guild of 100 people, some of whom play all the time, some of whom play once a week.  40 of them are on a raid and uber item x drops.  Does it go to A, who is always on but for whom it would be a small but noticeable upgrade? B, who went through wipe after wipe learning the zone but hasn't been on in a while, for whom it would be a moderate upgrade?  C, who shows up about once a month but is funny and popular, for whom it would be a big upgrade?  To D, the promising new member who has only been around a couple weeks but for whom it would be a huge upgrade?  To E, the moderate playing, moderate contributing guy who hasn't gotten shit in a month?  To F, the shaman who wants this item and thinks it suits his build even though the non-shaman players and some of the other shamans think it sucks for his class?  To F, G, or H....  

At that point, people say "fuck it" and go with dkp.  Having someone spend 2 minutes updating your guild's dkp site after a raid is faster and fairer than all that shit.

[Rasix]

Some thoughts:

1.  Yes, some people actually enjoy playing accountant in these games.  Just like some people enjoy spending hours of their own personal time insuring that OTHERS are having fun and are happy.  Most DKP systems take very little time to update.  And if you've got an easy way to calculate the points, it's barely an issue at all.   Most hassles come from members not understanding the system or if you put in special out of raid incentives (ie, get this quest done, it helps the guild, we'll give you points).

2.  Like Mr. Rooster said, if you don't use DKP, you'll get differing viewpoints on need/use/priority.  Some people don't know shit about this game.  Some rogues want sub 2 speed mainhand swords so they can do jack shit damage with their specials.  Some hunters want to roll on end game rogue mainhanders or warrior two handers because we all know they're going to be meleeing a whole ton in the end game.  Some rogues want ENDGAMEGUN-ALPHA for the stats.   Not often enough a guild leader knows enough about the game or feels comfortable enough drawing lines about who can get what.

DKP solves this.  Hunter wants some spiffy sword that's basically decoration? Guess what, be ready to kiss the last 20 raids worth of points goodbye.   

Now shouldn't the guild leader be able to restrict that sword to rogue/warrior only? Yes, but you're going to build resentment.  You're going have people claiming you're playing favorites.  Best to cut the bullshit, cut the ambiguity and rely on the DKP system.  Some cut and dry judgement calls still need to be made though.  The second a warlock wins a perdition blade, someone's going to fucking quit the guild.  You have to cut this sort of thing off before it happens.  You're going to have some prereqs, but it's a lot less misinterpretable than a large decision tree.

We've had some injustices through this system, but the people involved have paid out their asses for it.  Two hunters with complete Dal Rend sets tends to piss off the rogue population, but they'll (the rogues) deal if the hunter spent his last 2 months worth of raids on it. 

3.  Yes, how loot in these games is distrubted is just plain ridiculous and unfair.  40 people to accomplish an objective and under the most ideal circumstances less than half will get something in something that takes more than 3 days for the top end guilds to accomplish.  People are going to put in 12 hours plus and can and will walk away with nothing. Outrage at this does not change reality.  You have to have a system that lets the people that are putting in the time, that are contributing the most to the guild, get their rewards.  Piggy-backing on success will get you less than if you've fought for the guild to get to the point where they're at.   People experiencing the wipes, the setbacks, the frustration will reap more rewards once that area becomes a trivial phat loot faucet.

Some guilds have systems that work for them well.  DKP has worked remarkably well for us.  I like it a lot better than the crap that happened in my EQ guild.  "Hey Rasix, you've been with us since the start, but this monk is 2 levels higher and just joined last week.   So, sorry but he's going to get the weapon. "  "Shit, you rolled low again, guess new monk #2 is going to get some increased ebay value."

[Jayce]

Might also have something to do with the fact that no one pays a monthly fee to be a fucking secretary/accountant.

The flaw in you guys' thinking is that you seem to think that everyone plays the game like you.  In addition to the good points made above, some people DO play to be a secretary or accountant.  Just because you don't enjoy that playstyle doesn't mean that no one does.

If you don't enjoy the kinds of games where you have to make 100 epic runs to complete your set, let me try to think of a solution for you.

....
...
.. still thinking...
....
..
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It's coming to me....
....
....
...
... I got it!

Play something else!

[HaemishM]

If you're playing with a group of people that needs some sort of mechanical device to decide who gets what and why, you should just stay away from the game.

It's called a guild.

One of the main reasons I finally gave up being a guild leader was that the single largest amount of time I ever spent on the game was in either adjudicating loot disputes or trying to craft a "who gets what loot" policy without turning the entire guild into a screaming shit fit of selfish bitching. I'm serious. I started out with a pretty simple loot policy, which was esentially "need before greed and no farming shit for sales" stuff. Then people brought up alts. Then epic drops. Then it became who went to how many raids. And it just spiraled upwards into absolute lewt whorishness from there. And this was from people who were otherwise friends and rational people. But wave da uber loot in front of their noses and it became a contest to see who could be the biggest raging douchebag.

And this was a CASUAL guild, that supposedly enjoyed role-playing and wanted a guild with a "family" atmosphere.

And people wonder why I bitch about the idiocy of end-game raiding.

[schild]

\The flaw in you guys' thinking is that you seem to think that everyone plays the game like you.  In addition to the good points made above, some people DO play to be a secretary or accountant.  Just because you don't enjoy that playstyle doesn't mean that no one does.

If you don't enjoy the kinds of games where you have to make 100 epic runs to complete your set, let me try to think of a solution for you.

....
...
.. still thinking...
....
..
...
It's coming to me....
....
....
...
... I got it!

Play something else!

I never mentioned an accountant. I am playing something else. This applies to all MMORPGs. It's a shitty system and has nothing to do with how *I* play. Don't be a dickhead.

[Jayce]

I never mentioned an accountant.

I was replying to both you and Sougrinaughabcefg.

This applies to all MMORPGs. It's a shitty system and has nothing to do with how *I* play.

I disagree.  I like the system.  Both the DKP and the endgame raid typical MMOG grind blah blah.

Don't be a dickhead.

I'll try.

[Paelos]

I don't like endgame raids for two pieces of loot either, but as long as they exist people have to make distribution systems. And they will always exist because devs know that keeps subscription rates coming in. So, were you to design a MMO, Schild, where everyone was rewarded for a raid, you would be smacked down by the money men.

[schild]

So, were you to design a MMO, Schild, where everyone was rewarded for a raid, you would be smacked down by the money men.

If I were to design an MMOG with raids as an endgame, I'd smack myself down before it even got to the moneymen. Raids should be part of the game throughout all levels, not just the endgame. It's simply a copout to use it as the ultimate culmination of gameplay after tens to hundreds of hours of gameplay.

[ajax34i]

I think that DKP systems are usually put in place by the officers of a guild, because they're sick and tired of manually dealing with the loot distribution bullshit, and the rules and regulations of it will make their job easier.  

You don't like "playing accountant," but realize that as a guild leader, you'd be "playing diplomat" and writing pages upon pages of prose in /tell conversations with 5-10 people at the same time as you try to placate them and explain why decisions about loot were fair and how they're still valued members of the guild and your friends.  Frankly, it's less work to play accountant, spend an hour keeping up a spreadsheet at the end of the day, and just look it up during the raid, than to play diplomat, with all that typing to placate people.

[Paelos]

This is why class rolling just makes sense to me. Fuck the elitism.

[chinslim]

Does it go to A, who is always on but for whom it would be a small but noticeable upgrade? B, who went through wipe after wipe learning the zone but hasn't been on in a while, for whom it would be a moderate upgrade?  C, who shows up about once a month but is funny and popular, for whom it would be a big upgrade?  To D, the promising new member who has only been around a couple weeks but for whom it would be a huge upgrade?  To E, the moderate playing, moderate contributing guy who hasn't gotten shit in a month?  To F, the shaman who wants this item and thinks it suits his build even though the non-shaman players and some of the other shamans think it sucks for his class?  To F, G, or H....

You forgot 'I'...the guy who 5 manned DM with some other guild member last week and was invited and summoned in the last minute as a replacement on the 3rd boss attempt.  Wouldn't the regular raiders be pissed off if the new guy won some rare item for his 10 minutes of effort?  Even our DKP system has rules for handling new raiders.

Like any other social hobby(poker, bowling, softball), there's going to be someone who puts in the effort of organization and accounting for the rest of the group.  It's no different in WoW or any other MMO. 

And DKP is supposed to encourage regular raid attendance and screw the casual gamer.  Having to re-explain tactics and re-train a new set of people every week sucks.  Come to think of it, belonging to a regularly-scheduled raid group rocks, as I've been able to actually cut down my hours because I don't need to look around for something to do when I log in.  The "casual gamers" who're trying to advance via the pvp rewards system are getting their time sucked into constant SS/TM zerging.

[Trippy]

And this was from people who were otherwise friends and rational people. But wave da uber loot in front of their noses and it became a contest to see who could be the biggest raging douchebag.

And this was a CASUAL guild, that supposedly enjoyed role-playing and wanted a guild with a "family" atmosphere.

Indeed. I knew my EQ-catassing was getting bad when loot decisions were affecting me physically (one time I literally started shaking in anger when I was passed up for a drop I thought I deserved) and mentally even when I wasn't playing the game. It made quitting cold-turkey that much easier knowing I didn't have to put up with that stuff anymore.

[chinslim]

Who's looking for a "family" atmosphere anyways?  You're telling me your family never has constant bickering?  You're telling me nobody in your family embarrasses the shit out of you?

But no matter what, family is family, and you learn to put up with the fights and arguments and move forward.  If you can't put up with it in a video game, good luck doing it in a real family.

"Casual gamers" are just skilled at making excuses.

[SurfD]

So, were you to design a MMO, Schild, where everyone was rewarded for a raid, you would be smacked down by the money men.

If I were to design an MMOG with raids as an endgame, I'd smack myself down before it even got to the moneymen. Raids should be part of the game throughout all levels, not just the endgame. It's simply a copout to use it as the ultimate culmination of gameplay after tens to hundreds of hours of gameplay.

There seems to be a problem with mixing "raids throughout all levels" and "raids for loot" paradigms.  I mean, who would actually WANT to participate in a raid 1/3 of the way through the level curve, if every reward you could possibly get for it will be outdated in your next month of gameplay.
There is a good reason why you almost never see appropriate level Druids with a full set of the Vambrace of the Viper in WoW.  Its cause no druid in their right mind would actually want to grind Wailing Caverns the 15 or so times needed to get the full 5 piece set, not to mention that by time they DID get the full 5 piece set, they would have already started getting quest items or regular old green drops with better stats.
Raids are there to give people shit to do when you hit the level cap.  Sure, they are usually poorly implimented (our guild seems to have a Molten Core loot table that consists of  40% Warlock Set drops, 40% Druid Set drops, and 20% everything else) and overly time consuming, but if you participate often enough you do come away with something.  I already have 3 pieces of my tier 1 mage set, and i have only been raiding with them for around 1 and a half months.  And that is with the abominably low drop on mage gear.

[Hoax]

"Casual gamers" are just skilled at making excuses.

ahh...

I already have 3 pieces of my tier 1 mage set, and i have only been raiding with them for around 1 and a half months.  And that is with the abominably low drop on mage gear.

I think thats his point?

*starts making popcorn*

[Malathor]

But wave da uber loot in front of their noses and it became a contest to see who could be the biggest raging douchebag.

And this was a CASUAL guild, that supposedly enjoyed role-playing and wanted a guild with a "family" atmosphere.

And people wonder why I bitch about the idiocy of end-game raiding.

Actually you'll see a lot more of that in the purportedly casual guilds than you will in the top raiding guilds. The single most important characteristic that gets a guild to the top is the willingness of its players to sacrifice their own character's interests for the interests of the guild. Generally speaking, top raiding guilds simply don't tolerate lootwhoring bullshit.

[Hoax]

What the fuck is a top raiding guild, seriously it disgusts me that we have a hierarchy for beating up on NPC's.

God I think I need to go back to fps games and stay there for another decade.

[schild]

God I think I need to go back to fps games and stay there for another decade.

What bothers me is despite how much I hate MMORPGs and everything about them, they're the best genre right now. Well, other than farming simulators. Have to wait for the new Harvest Moon though. Unfortunately you're a girl trying to get a guy. So maybe this one will be more...awkward than the last.

Hm. I guess I really am just a bitch for virtual worlds.

[WayAbvPar]

Hm. I guess I really am just a bitch for virtual worlds.

Sandbox slut!

[Rasix]

What the fuck is a top raiding guild, seriously it disgusts me that we have a hierarchy for beating up on NPC's.

Where have you been for the past 6 years? In WoW though, the destinction means  less than it did in EQ.  There's very little direct competition between guilds for spawns (the outdoor ones number 2 and it's just usually zergy alliance that gets them).

It pretty just means what you can do on your own merit in WoW. I'm not really sure how that would disgust someone, it's just a distinction that only means something if you give a shit about it.   Some guilds can tackle the high end stuff, some can't. Ooooh the outrage!

[HaemishM]

Who's looking for a "family" atmosphere anyways?  You're telling me your family never has constant bickering?  You're telling me nobody in your family embarrasses the shit out of you?

But no matter what, family is family, and you learn to put up with the fights and arguments and move forward.  If you can't put up with it in a video game, good luck doing it in a real family.

"Casual gamers" are just skilled at making excuses.

I inherited the "family" atmosphere, but I tried to maintain it. It meant we could discuss and argue things, but out and out fucking each other in the ass over numbers in a database wasn't part of the equation. It was supposed to be more important that we all stayed friends and had FUN in the game than whether or not we could take out the "top tier" targets or get all the shineys. It was supposed to be about roleplaying and carousing and genuine friendship, where how much fun wasn't measured by our success or failure, but by the enjoyment of the activity.

But all that went out the window once we were able to do raids, because no one wanted to do anything that didn't involve raiding or improving our chances at raiding anymore, unless of course, you weren't of the level to actually raid yet. And despite all my attempts, the ship never righted itself. I believe that I was entirely too nice in that time period, trying to appease as many as possible, when I would have been better off just bitchslapping a lot of those people to the curb.

And as for casual gamers and excuses, catasses are really skilled at sounding like stuck-up cockholsters.

[Hoax]

What the fuck is a top raiding guild, seriously it disgusts me that we have a hierarchy for beating up on NPC's.

Where have you been for the past 6 years? In WoW though, the destinction means  less than it did in EQ.  There's very little direct competition between guilds for spawns (the outdoor ones number 2 and it's just usually zergy alliance that gets them).

It pretty just means what you can do on your own merit in WoW. I'm not really sure how that would disgust someone, it's just a distinction that only means something if you give a shit about it.   Some guilds can tackle the high end stuff, some can't. Ooooh the outrage!

Sorry for the lack of green type, I figured it was not needed.  My point was that its a fucking joke to rank anybody on their ability to beat up npc's.  Its disgusting because THERE IS NO SKILL INVOLVED.  There was more skill involved in beating a megaman X game then in learning the "strat" for MoltenCore.  I spit on your fucking raid encounters, I have no problem having them in a game allot of people enjoy them.  But when they are the measuring stick for player-ability I get disgusted. 

Am I still not making sense?

@Schild:  Agreed, I dont know that I can go back to fps games because I need my little virtual character and the promise of interacting with 1,000's of other people from around the world.  But god damn I really can't take much more of these auto attack combat systems and everything else that adds up to one simple fact:

/played > skill

Guildwars should be the remedy, but so far it hasn't really grabbed me.  I dont blame the game though as much as I just dont think I'm in the mood for rpg combat without a true online world.  Put GuildWars thinking man's combat system into any mmog world and I'd stfu and play.

[Rasix]

Sorry for the lack of green type, I figured it was not needed.  My point was that its a fucking joke to rank anybody on their ability to beat up npc's.  Its disgusting because THERE IS NO SKILL INVOLVED.  There was more skill involved in beating a megaman X game then in learning the "strat" for MoltenCore.  I spit on your fucking raid encounters, I have no problem having them in a game allot of people enjoy them.  But when they are the measuring stick for player-ability I get disgusted. 

I've seen you say stupider so I took it at face value.  I don't think anyone's saying that being in an upper-tier raid guild or being a raid-guild player denotes any sort of advanced skill or inherent superiority.  Mostly it's a greater time invested, involvement in said guild, and a willingness to contribute and learn.   

But yes, I suppose it carries a measure of rank.  Yes, it really means nothing and most people in said guilds know this. It's going to mean even less and battlegrounds and less in PVP since it uses a built-in visible rank.  The rank calculated STILL isn't a good measure of player skill, but it's a start.  But really, who fucking cares?  Play the game and have fun in the manner you want to.  Why care what others think of you and your place in the insignificant social hierarchy of a goddamn videogame?