Shinichiro Watanabe is my God

[Daydreamer]

So I just got a hold of the complete Samurai Champloo series, the spiritual successor to Cowboy Bebop, by Shinichrio Watanabe, and I'm digging it.  Instead of classic rock/western space opera, its your standard Meji era wandering swordsmen story with a sort of an early 90s DJ/hip-hop vibe.  And the action sequences have his trademake originality and fluidity.  However its too early to tell if the series can work the music, themes, and art into a cohesive whole like Cowboy Bebop did, but here is hoping.

Reccomended Shinichiro Viewing:
Kid's Story (Animatrix)
A Detective Story (Animatrix)
Cowboy Bebop
Macross Plus

[schild]

It ain't Cowboy Bebop. That's for sure. I watched it a while ago, and well, I liked Kenshin more. particularly due to the OVA and Kyoto Arc (of course). Maybe though, since Fabricated went on and on about it last night, I'll pick it up.

[angry.bob]

Eh, it was pretty good, but the drastic changes in the quality of animation really annoyed me. If the fight between Mugen and Sara had been animated with the same quality and standards as the stuff in the first couple of episodes it would have been great. But instead it looked piss poor and was relatively boring. I also had a nagging feeling in the back of my head that a lot of things in the show were borrowed from Blade of the Immortal - which really, really deserves to be animated.

But then again I like Naruto. Reminds me of Harry Potter, except with ninjas instead of wizards.

[Fabricated]

It almost tries too hard to be stylish IMO, but it's really fun to watch. The Kenshin OVA was pretty cool, but the TV series sucked when it got to the Kyoto Arc and got worse and worse afterwards (Shishiyo is one of the lamest villains in anime history. "HI, MY POWER IS BEING BURNED REALLY BAD.")

Where the hell did you get the whole series unless you got maybe Japanese DVDs or fansubs? There's only 2 DVDs out in America right now.

[Alkiera]

It almost tries too hard to be stylish IMO, but it's really fun to watch. The Kenshin OVA was pretty cool, but the TV series sucked when it got to the Kyoto Arc and got worse and worse afterwards (Shishiyo is one of the lamest villains in anime history. "HI, MY POWER IS BEING BURNED REALLY BAD.")

Where the hell did you get the whole series unless you got maybe Japanese DVDs or fansubs? There's only 2 DVDs out in America right now.

Most of the Kenshin I watched was fansubs, well before it came to US as Samarai X.  I've heard the Samarai X sub voices are really odd...  but that's pretty typical of anime subs.  I enjoyed the Kenshin I saw... which was quite a bit, but in no particular order.  I just can't sit down and watch stuff like most people seem to.  Passive == boring after an hour.

Haven't seen this new series, tho Bebop was enjoyable.

Alkiera

[Daydreamer]

Where the hell did you get the whole series unless you got maybe Japanese DVDs or fansubs? There's only 2 DVDs out in America right now.

Digisubs - AnimeForever.  Champloo is harder to find now that its licensed but its out there.

[schild]

Where the hell did you get the whole series unless you got maybe Japanese DVDs or fansubs? There's only 2 DVDs out in America right now.

Remember that store that got raided by the FBI a few months back? I worked there. They sold imports bootlegs.

[Hoax]

Champloo is fun but it is not the second incarnation of bebop, the only purpose the hip-hop serves are scene changes and Mugen's fighting style.  You get to ep14-15 when a serious storyline kicks in and all of a sudden its your typical anime fare with a slow female japanese vocalist..

I like it, but dont love it.

@Kenshin:  OVA = good (Samurai X, although why he wore pink I'll never know), series = shit on a stick..

I'm going to have to check out some of that other stuff, esp Macross Plus I'd already heard good things about it and I love the combat (mecha + transformers + top gun = WIN) just wish the stories weren't always so stupid and often very dated.

[Margalis]

Macross Plus is great. The overall use of sound is fantastic. It's pretty different from other Macross things as well, I don't think the story is stupid or dated at all.

[Teleku]

I've watched the whole series (fan subs) and absolulty loved it.  Its serioulsy (in my opinion) one of the best animes to come out in a long time (I haven't really liked much of anything the last few years).  It doesn't take itself seriously, and has some of the most fucking hilarious moments I have ever seen on screen.  Some episodes had me laughing through the entire thing.  Pure comedy gold.  Its also done very stylishly, and I really liked the animation overall.  I would recommend to anybody.  I think its unfair to compare this to Kenshin though, as that was primarily a serious wondering-samurai-mejii-era series, while this is more of a comedy spoof of those.  I agree about the Kenshin OAV though, was very excellent (Trust & Betrayal, the first one.  The second about Kenshins later years sucked ass).

I didn't really know what to make of it at first, as it took me a bit to get use to the jarring switchs between dark serious moments and slap stick monty python-ish comedy.  But its just really damn good.  Probably one of the more original animes to come out recently as well.  Give it a try.

By the way, anybody know how the English Dubs are for the American release?  The dubs have gotten a little better in recent years, and I actually prefered the English dubs to the original for Cowboy Bebop, which gives me some hope these will be well done also.

[schild]

By the way, anybody know how the English Dubs are for the American release?  The dubs have gotten a little better in recent years, and I actually prefered the English dubs to the original for Cowboy Bebop, which gives me some hope these will be well done also.

*cough, retch*

The english dubbing on Cowboy Bebop were absolute shit. Unbearable, and I'm not even a dub snob. I have a real issue getting immersed when no characters sound like I'd imagine them to. The only anime I've seen that had truly good dubbing was Colorful (which was absolutely brilliant). Those people at least sounded like they had fun - and you found out they actually did have fun on a behind the scenes/making of doc on the dvd. I don't even like the Studio Ghibli dubs filled with famous people. Basically if I can't look on screen and imagine that voice coming out of a characters mouth, I have issues with the anime/live action/video game from beginning to end. Claire Danes as San in Princess Mononoke nearly made me choke on my own vomit - which I was lying in after watching the english dub.

Edit: I feel that I should point out that I've found the dubs of stuff that gets put on TV are generally the worst. Fullmetal Alchemist, Cowboy Bebop, etc - they just turned out positively awful. FMA was particularly a rushjob. Fucking hacks. But I imagine in most cases, the stuff that gets put on TV are the ones handled with the least amount of care because a celebrity isn't going to sit around and record a 13-26-xx episode long season when they could be doing actual movies. So they get Joe Average Dickhead. I fear for what's going to happen to Jungle Wa. The voice acting for Guu is going to need to be the best ever chosen.

[angry.bob]

I fear for what's going to happen to Jungle Wa

WHo has the license? Better hope it's not 4kids. Everything they've touched has been horrible. What they did to One Piece is an abomination.

[schild]

I fear for what's going to happen to Jungle Wa

WHo has the license? Better hope it's not 4kids. Everything they've touched has been horrible. What they did to One Piece is an abomination.

Animenation (yes, the store). All they've done is Miami Guns and Risky Safety. Neither of which I've seen. Neither of which is probably anywhere near the craziness of Hale Guu. I don't imagine they're up to the task. Casting Guu will be damn near impossible. They have to find a young girl with the most emotionless voice possible. And they ain't buying Dakota Fanning (who could probably pull it off).

Fuck, it makes me angry just thinking about it.

[Strazos]

I had no problem with the Cowboy Bebop dubs. /shrug

FMA is shit before you even consider the dubs.

[Margalis]

I thought Cowboy Bebop dub was ok, and Princess Mononoke was pretty good. How can you not like Keith David and Gillian Anderson?

[Soln]

yup -- loved Bebop (got em all), loved Champloo (got subs of em all).  Prefer to read subs anyday than voiceover estimates.  Watanabe indeed rox my world as well.

BTW: I think I heard correctly that Adult Swim is being spun off by TWX as its own channel. 

[Hoax]

God you know I haven't asked for much...

[Fabricated]

Edit: I feel that I should point out that I've found the dubs of stuff that gets put on TV are generally the worst. Fullmetal Alchemist, Cowboy Bebop, etc - they just turned out positively awful. FMA was particularly a rushjob. Fucking hacks. But I imagine in most cases, the stuff that gets put on TV are the ones handled with the least amount of care because a celebrity isn't going to sit around and record a 13-26-xx episode long season when they could be doing actual movies. So they get Joe Average Dickhead. I fear for what's going to happen to Jungle Wa. The voice acting for Guu is going to need to be the best ever chosen.

Uh, you do realise that Bebop was designed to be dubbed first and foremost right?

As for FMA, it's perfectly fine. The fucking Japanese voices suck IMO.

[schild]

Uh, you do realise that Bebop was designed to be dubbed first and foremost right?

The voices were utter ass. I don't care what it was designed for.

[Fabricated]

Uh, you do realise that Bebop was designed to be dubbed first and foremost right?

The voices were utter ass. I don't care what it was designed for.

There's no accounting for bad taste I guess.

[schild]

You're right. I can't imagine why you would admit to liking that abortion of a dub.

[Fabricated]

I dunno what to say really, there's just no accounting for that much bad taste.

ZOOOMMM

[Hoax]

Sub > Dub.

Dubs are only ok for comedy shows (I found the dub of Full Metal Panic worked fine -great fucking show imo) but watching the dub of Bebop on Adult Swim just makes me want to go to my comp and watch the real version.

[Stormwaltz]

There are relatively few dubs that I enjoy, but Bebop was one of them. After a rocky start, I thought Melissa Charles made a more surreal Ed than the original Japanese voice actress.

[Fabricated]

Sub > Dub.

Dubs are only ok for comedy shows (I found the dub of Full Metal Panic worked fine -great fucking show imo) but watching the dub of Bebop on Adult Swim just makes me want to go to my comp and watch the real version.

...the dub IS the real version.

Also, wierd fact: Ed's character was designed to be similar to Yoko Kanno in attitude/personality. Yoko Kanno is probably VERY STRANGE.

[Viin]

The Cowboy Bebop english voice-overs are some of the best I've heard for anime. However, we all know that once someone makes up an opinion for themselves (after hearing the english voices for 10 seconds after watching most of the series dubbed ) there is never any going back.

I do normally watch anime with the original soundtrack and subtitles, - even with Berserk the english voice acting sucked ass but you could tell they had a little fun with it from watching the english voice-over outtakes. I still prefer subtitles though and find that I generally don't even give new anime series a chance at the dubs: it's switched to original soundtrack before it even starts playing.

[Hoax]

Its pretty much a moot point now though, because most good fansubs are dual audio right? 

[Samprimary]

Cowboy Bebop was one of .. uh, two features I liked better dubbed.

[SurfD]

Its pretty much a moot point now though, because most good fansubs are dual audio right? 

If it is dual audio, then it sure as hell isnt a fan sub.  Anything Dual Audio is likely to be a DVD rip.  In which case, the subtitle track will most likely be the corporate labels subs, and not any Fan Groups subs.

In my opinion, Subs > Dubs, no exceptions.  First, because listening to them talk in Japanese is part of the presentation (vocal inflections, all that jaz) which is a key element of what gets lost in an English Adaption, and second, because unless you speak Japanese fairly well, 9 times out of 10, if the Jap voice actor actually sucks, you cant tell anyhow (the same can not be said for a bad Dub in your native tongue....OnePiece......stabbing sharp objects in ears...make the hurting stop.....)

As someone I know once said: Watching Dubbed Anime is like making Sushi with Hotdogs.  If you arent going to bother appreciating the item the way it was ment to be, why bother in the first place?

[Strazos]

I'm not an anime art fag, so I really don't give a damn.

I'll take my English VO's so i can watch and not read, kthx.

[Fabricated]

In my opinion, Subs > Dubs, no exceptions. First, because listening to them talk in Japanese is part of the presentation (vocal inflections, all that jaz) which is a key element of what gets lost in an English Adaption, and second, because unless you speak Japanese fairly well, 9 times out of 10, if the Jap voice actor actually sucks, you cant tell anyhow (the same can not be said for a bad Dub in your native tongue....OnePiece......stabbing sharp objects in ears...make the hurting stop.....)

And if you don't speak or understand Japanese, you just stupidly assume the subtitles are more correct than the dub when they are usually just as "wrong". Also, if you don't understand Japanese, you're not going to get any of the plays on words or most of the cultural references anyway. Unless 4Kids got the job, the dub more often than not is perfectly fine for people who don't like to pretend they somehow understand a foreign language they don't speak better than their native tongue.

As someone I know once said: Watching Dubbed Anime is like making Sushi with Hotdogs. If you arent going to bother appreciating the item the way it was ment to be, why bother in the first place?

Which is why the King James version of the Bible doesn't exist anymore, along with the original book of the Seven Rings, or The Art of War, or uh...ANY foreign language book or movie that greatly influenced culture through being translated into several different languages? You realise how fucking stupid that sounds?

[SurfD]

And if you don't speak or understand Japanese, you just stupidly assume the subtitles are more correct than the dub when they are usually just as "wrong". Also, if you don't understand Japanese, you're not going to get any of the plays on words or most of the cultural references anyway. Unless 4Kids got the job, the dub more often than not is perfectly fine for people who don't like to pretend they somehow understand a foreign language they don't speak better than their native tongue.

I never intended to infer that a sub would have a vastly superior translation then a Dub, however, I still stand by the fact that I would rather watch the show with origional Japanese dialogue and english subs, then with English Dialogue. (hell, in some cases, a corporate DVD simply has a word for word sub of their own dub, witch is in many cases blatantly wrong).

One of my best friends is currently living in japan studying the language, and he is ALWAYS bitching about how sub-par many sub groups translations are.

Still, the sub groups that actually care (and arent engaged in a big battle of e-peens to see who can get a particular ep of a partular show out first) usually put a phenominal amount of effort into their subs to ensure accuracy, and in many cases, also highlight many of those cultural references and the signifigance behind them.

Which is why the King James version of the Bible doesn't exist anymore, along with the original book of the Seven Rings, or The Art of War, or uh...ANY foreign language book or movie that greatly influenced culture through being translated into several different languages? You realise how fucking stupid that sounds?

And how many of those works have been fucked up and edited (King James Bible eh?) by people with a vested interest in seeing said work translated with their personal view?  Sure, they had some great influence on our culture and society after translation, but how many people are still interested in checking out the origional work, with a slightly less hammerfisted level of translation (sub vs dub preserves more of the origional presentation).

I mean, which would actually be a more relevant study of a particular work?  A look at Beowulf, as completely translated into modern english, with none of the origional work present, or beowulf, as origionally written, with english translations occompanying?

[Strazos]

If you can't understand the work in its original form, then it's presence is moot.

[Viin]

If you can't understand the work in its original form, then it's presence is moot.

IE: college is a waste of time

[Fabricated]

I never intended to infer that a sub would have a vastly superior translation then a Dub, however, I still stand by the fact that I would rather watch the show with origional Japanese dialogue and english subs, then with English Dialogue. (hell, in some cases, a corporate DVD simply has a word for word sub of their own dub, witch is in many cases blatantly wrong).

A lot of my DVDs have two sets of subtitles. One is the dub word-for-word and the other is the relatively more precise translation. Odd that they'd bother doing both.

One of my best friends is currently living in japan studying the language, and he is ALWAYS bitching about how sub-par many sub groups translations are.

I took 4 years of it in High School with a very good teacher. He had us watch a lot of stuff without subtitles since he thought the translation job on a lot of them were "shit". I vividly remember a good friend of mine bringing in some of his fansub DVDs to watch. He laughed and said they were so poorly done we'd be better off just trying to listen ourselves.

Still, the sub groups that actually care (and arent engaged in a big battle of e-peens to see who can get a particular ep of a partular show out first) usually put a phenominal amount of effort into their subs to ensure accuracy, and in many cases, also highlight many of those cultural references and the signifigance behind them.

That's about the same as someone telling you why a joke is funny when you don't get it.

And how many of those works have been fucked up and edited (King James Bible eh?) by people with a vested interest in seeing said work translated with their personal view?

And yet Christianity wouldn't be anywhere near as widespread today without it.

Sure, they had some great influence on our culture and society after translation, but how many people are still interested in checking out the origional work, with a slightly less hammerfisted level of translation (sub vs dub preserves more of the origional presentation).

I mean, which would actually be a more relevant study of a particular work? A look at Beowulf, as completely translated into modern english, with none of the origional work present, or beowulf, as origionally written, with english translations occompanying?

They'd both be exactly the same to you if you didn't understand the original language.