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Author Topic: Old and busted: 666, New Hotness: 616  (Read 3372 times)
Shockeye
Staff Emeritus
Posts: 6668

Skinny-dippin' in a sea of Lee, I'd propose on bended knee...


WWW
on: May 05, 2005, 12:20:12 PM

Quote from: National Post
Beast's real mark devalued to '616'
Revelation fragment
 
Chris Wattie
National Post

Wednesday, May 04, 2005

Satanists, apocalypse watchers and heavy metal guitarists may have to adjust their demonic numerology after a recently deciphered ancient biblical text revealed that 666 is not the fabled Number of the Beast after all.

A fragment from the oldest surviving copy of the New Testament, dating to the Third century, gives the more mundane 616 as the mark of the Antichrist.

Ellen Aitken, a professor of early Christian history at McGill University, said the discovery appears to spell the end of 666 as the devil's prime number.

"This is a very nice piece to find," Dr. Aitken said. "Scholars have argued for a long time over this, and it now seems that 616 was the original number of the beast."

The tiny fragment of 1,500-year-old papyrus is written in Greek, the original language of the New Testament, and contains a key passage from the Book of Revelation.

Where more conventional versions of the Bible give 666 as the "number of the beast," or the sign of the anti-Christ whose coming is predicted in the book's apocalyptic verses, the older version uses the Greek letters signifying 616.

"This is very early confirmation of that number, earlier than any other text we've found of that passage," Dr. Aitken said. "It's probably about 100 years before any other version."

The fragment was part of a hoard of previously illegible manuscripts discovered in an ancient garbage dump outside the Egyptian city of Oxyrhynchus. Although the papyrus was first excavated in 1895, it was badly discoloured and damaged. Classics scholars at Oxford University were only recently able to read it using new advanced imaging techniques.

Elijah Dann, a professor of philosophy and religion at the University of Toronto, said the new number is unlikely to make a dent in the popularity of 666.

"Otherwise, a lot of sermons would have to be changed and a lot of movies rewritten," he said with a laugh. "There's always someone with an active imagination who can put another interpretation on it.

"It just shows you that when you study something as cryptic and mystic as the Book of Revelation there's an almost unlimited number of interpretations."

The book is thought to have been written by the disciple John and according to the King James Bible, the traditional translation of the passage reads: "Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six."

But Dr. Aitken said that translation was drawn from much later versions of the New Testament than the fragment found in Oxyrhynchus. "When we're talking about the early biblical texts, we're always talking about copies and they are copies made, at best, 150 to 200 years after [the original] was written," she said.

"They can have mistakes in the copying, changes for political or theological reasons ... it's like a detective story piecing it all together."

Dr. Aitken said, however, that scholars now believe the number in question has very little to do the devil. It was actually a complicated numerical riddle in Greek, meant to represent someone's name, she said.

"It's a number puzzle -- the majority opinion seems to be that it refers to [the Roman emperor] Nero."

Revelation was actually a thinly disguised political tract, with the names of those being criticized changed to numbers to protect the authors and early Christians from reprisals. "It's a very political document," Dr. Aitken said. "It's a critique of the politics and society of the Roman empire, but it's written in coded language and riddles."
WayAbvPar
Moderator
Posts: 19270


Reply #1 on: May 05, 2005, 12:22:07 PM

Boy is Bruce Dickinson's face ever red!  embarassed

When speaking of the MMOG industry, the glass may be half full, but it's full of urine. HaemishM

Always wear clean underwear because you never know when a Tory Government is going to fuck you.- Ironwood

Libertarians make fun of everyone because they can't see beyond the event horizons of their own assholes Surlyboi
HaemishM
Staff Emeritus
Posts: 42666

the Confederate flag underneath the stone in my class ring


WWW
Reply #2 on: May 05, 2005, 12:23:45 PM

But... the Bible is God's literal word, and its authors divinely inspired! One of the authors would NEVER have written a book to espouse a current political climate or situation.

Viin
Terracotta Army
Posts: 6159


Reply #3 on: May 05, 2005, 12:32:00 PM

But... the Bible is God's literal word, and its authors divinely inspired! One of the authors would NEVER have written a book to espouse a current political climate or situation.

You mean he's really trying to remove the 666 number from collective memory so that when the Antichrist does appear (with 666 tattooed on his forehead) we'll all say "Nah that *can't* be him, someone said it's really suppose to be 616!!"?

- Viin
Strazos
Greetings from the Slave Coast
Posts: 15542

The World's Worst Game: Curry or Covid


Reply #4 on: May 06, 2005, 01:59:19 PM

A lot of "tough guys" with 666 tattoos might be pretty miffed.

Fear the Backstab!
"Plato said the virtuous man is at all times ready for a grammar snake attack." - we are lesion
"Hell is other people." -Sartre
Pococurante
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Posts: 2060


Reply #5 on: May 06, 2005, 04:03:29 PM

I forwarded the link to my pastor - his response cracked me up: "It will take the fundies twenty years to discover this, and less than five minutes to explain it away or dismiss it."
stray
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Posts: 16818

has an iMac.


Reply #6 on: May 06, 2005, 05:28:08 PM

616 has always been a variation in scripture texts. It's nothing new. This is just sensationalism. Most newer bible texts and translations have kept the 616 number in a footnote for years now. Only those translations based on the Textus Receptus (i.e. King James, Latin Vulgate) make no mention of it.

The reason for the variation in is because 616 and 666 are both codes for the same individual, but one number is for Greek readers, the other number for Aramaic. Now that the Aramaic texts do not exist, all we have now is it's translation to Greek...Which adds a bit to the confusion.

Look up: Postmillenialism. The idea that it was largely a political tract, and a coded warning to then current events, is also nothing new. The Beast, the "end of times", etc were in the past. The millennial reign of Christ signifies the age of the church (i.e. the present).
« Last Edit: May 06, 2005, 05:32:10 PM by Stray »
Pococurante
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Posts: 2060


Reply #7 on: May 06, 2005, 05:52:32 PM

616 has always been a variation in scripture texts. It's nothing new.

It's common for footnotes to include antiquarian references to non-extant texts (hiya Flavius Josephus!) and qualify them as such.  The difference now seems the source is no longer non-extant.

/insert standard gnashing of teeth re: the loss of the Alexandrian libraries.
stray
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Posts: 16818

has an iMac.


Reply #8 on: May 06, 2005, 05:54:00 PM

/insert standard gnashing of teeth re: the loss of the Alexandrian libraries.

Mind if I join?  undecided
Krakrok
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Reply #9 on: May 06, 2005, 06:11:02 PM


Are you sure it isn't 661? Because that's my zip code.
stray
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Posts: 16818

has an iMac.


Reply #10 on: May 06, 2005, 06:36:43 PM


Are you sure it isn't 661? Because that's my zip code.

Can you play a zither? If so, then you just might be the spawn of satan.
TheWalrus
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Reply #11 on: May 06, 2005, 06:37:04 PM

Good Lord! It adds up to 13! The devil is unlucky!

vanilla folders - MediumHigh
Pococurante
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Posts: 2060


Reply #12 on: May 06, 2005, 06:39:58 PM

Only if he's a Templar/Freemason... ;-)
Strazos
Greetings from the Slave Coast
Posts: 15542

The World's Worst Game: Curry or Covid


Reply #13 on: May 07, 2005, 02:20:43 AM

/insert standard gnashing of teeth re: the loss of the Alexandrian libraries.

Mind if I join?  undecided

Seconded.

Fear the Backstab!
"Plato said the virtuous man is at all times ready for a grammar snake attack." - we are lesion
"Hell is other people." -Sartre
WayAbvPar
Moderator
Posts: 19270


Reply #14 on: May 07, 2005, 10:46:50 AM


Are you sure it isn't 661? Because that's my zip code.

What country do you live in with a 3 digit zip?  :-D

When speaking of the MMOG industry, the glass may be half full, but it's full of urine. HaemishM

Always wear clean underwear because you never know when a Tory Government is going to fuck you.- Ironwood

Libertarians make fun of everyone because they can't see beyond the event horizons of their own assholes Surlyboi
Stephen Zepp
Developers
Posts: 1635

InstantAction


WWW
Reply #15 on: May 08, 2005, 01:25:22 PM

Only if he's a Templar/Freemason... ;-)

Heh...most people don't know about that reference!

Rumors of War
Pococurante
Terracotta Army
Posts: 2060


Reply #16 on: May 08, 2005, 09:31:13 PM

Only if he's a Templar/Freemason... ;-)

Heh...most people don't know about that reference!

Nope - the entire reason 13 is considered unlucky...
Ironwood
Terracotta Army
Posts: 28240


Reply #17 on: May 09, 2005, 02:11:06 AM

Anyone born in the Kilmarnock/Ayrshire area has, on their birth certificate, the permanant area code of 666.

It always made me smile some.

For those of you that don't know, if they wanted to give Scotland an Enema, they'd stick the hose in Kilmarnock.


"Mr Soft Owl has Seen Some Shit." - Sun Tzu
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