Warrior spec talk

[Jayce]

OK, I got envious of the rogue's spec talk thread and decided to make one for us.  I know there are a few other warriors who frequent this board.

The conventional wisdom seems to be (leaving aside the cookie-cutter 31 arms/20 fury, which I'm sure is the pwnzor) that arms/fury is for leveling and PvP and protection spec is for instances etc.

I'm trying to come up with something remotely innovative, so I respecced to the following last night:  31 arms including 5 mace specialization (~10% chance to stun for 3 seconds) and 4 axe spec.  That gives me around (I think) 9% chance to crit with my axe given my current agi and items.  The rest is in protection since I'm still only 51 and will need to instance my way to 60 I think, given the current climate (PvP server).  That is in toughness (+10% to armor from items) and sheild spec. I got all enamored of shield spec after hearing one guy say he sometimes took 5-10 damage with shield block up from 60 elite mobs.

Am I insane?  What are your favorite specs?  Is there room for innovation in the system at all?  Discuss?

[El Gallo]

31 arms/ 15 protection/5 fury builds and minor variations thereof are very popular and flexible.  You get Mortal Strike (which is pretty much a must have, sadly enough) and the +5% to crit in fury.  You have 15 points to play with in Protection.  For example, you can get improved block 1, improved bloodrage 2, last stand, toughness 3 and defiance 3.  Or grab som eimproved revenge, or max toughness & defiance or whatever.  I am of two minds on defiance (every bit of aggro helps vs almost none of my aggro comes from the damage I do and 1.15 times zero is still zero--I have speced in and out of it a few times and am not sure I've seen anything more than a placebo effect).

The main problem is that the protection tree is not very good.  Not very good at protecting (the best defensive skill bar none is deflection, at the base of teh Arms tree), and not very good at much else.  The last patch made protection even weaker by castrating the one testicle shield block had left.

I am not so sure that spending points on 2 weapon specializations is a good idea, especially if you skip Cruelty (which gives you +5% to crit with every weapon) to do so.  I am not a fan of mace specialization, because of diminishing returns on stuns.  But beating things with maces is cool.  Cruelty + axe/pole spec + using an axe/pole gives you  +10% crits, which has nice synergy with deep wounds and impale.  Axe is better because its placement (at 20 rather than 25) lets you get improved hamstring without spending more than 31 in Arms and because there are 1 handed axes and no 1 handed poles.  This is why the arcanite reaper costs eleven jillion gold pieces.

Improved hamstring is much better than it seems for PvP.  As is piercing howl, but then you are in 31/20 territory.

[Paelos]

I'm 31/20. It sucks in instances when I have to use my shield, but frankly when I was full protection specced, the pallys still drew more aggro than me. It's a borked line IMO. The problem with the warrior is that the talent lines are horribly useless outside of the cookie cutter, plus going without mortal strike is a death warrant.

[Jayce]

I am not so sure that spending points on 2 weapon specializations is a good idea, especially if you skip Cruelty (which gives you +5% to crit with every weapon) to do so.

I really only got the axe spec because I needed the points to get to MS.  I didn't think much of improved hamstring, but next time I respec I will definitely look at that.

The main reason I went with maces as my primary weapon spec is that it seemed like a good compromise between arms and protection.  A stunned mob is not doing any damage, and that can save quite a bit of DPS depending on how hard and fast it hits.  The stun effect in PvP is just gravy (but not very yummy gravy, I'll admit).

I do really want cruelty, but I hadn't found room in the build.  I could shoehorn it in but I would shortchange my protection tree, which I'm starting to think wouldn't be that bad.  With Cruelty I'd be at about 14% crit, which isn't bad for someone not really building for crit.

[Lantien]

Oooooh, Warrior.  Now you're in my wheelhouse:

31/20 arms/fury is indeed the most popular build.  I hesitate to call it cookie cutter because it's effectiveness isn't an accident.  Most people base their "effectiveness" of a build by how well they do in duels, and that sort of build gives you high crit chances (with axe/polearm spec and cruelty) as well as high burst damage from stacking Deep Woulds, Impale, and Mortal Strike altogether with a crit.  The fact that it halves healing effectiveness is great vs Healer classes too.

However, I'd argue that dueling really teaches you aspects of how to be better at PvP. For instance, dueling is a purely one on one exercise, with pre-set rules.  The opponent on the other side may have a friend hanging out with him, or may choose to use whatever potions he wishes. In those situations, some of your dueling strategies may not work so well. It also allows you to be a bit "lazier" with your spec.  I don't have a 31/20 spec, and I seem to do fairly well in PVP.  Not dominant, but enough to feel credible.

Jayce: the main concern with your initial build is that generally speaking, going mace and going axe is considered inefficient, because you're generally only using one weapon at a time; those 4 or 5 points you're giving up could of been plowed back into something else, like improved hamstring (more of a pvp skill, but has some PvE applications, if you're willing to stance twist), Sweeping Strikes, or more Two handed weapon specialization. One generally accepted way to do things is to take stock of what your best weapon is, and build your weapon spec points towards that weapon.  If you find a better weapon, respec as necessary.  This is costly, but as you get deeper into the high level territory, you're less likely to test and play with various weapons, and will eventually stick with the one big weapon you like the most.  As for one handed weapons, one could argue that aggro control isn't totally based on damage dealt, but let's talk about that later on. I would take Axe over Mace specialization, all things being equal, for these reasons:

1. Stuns have diminishing returns; after about your 3rd, 4th stun, you should start seeing "immune" messages popping up. When you couple this with skills like the stun chance with improved revenge, and you may hit the cap very early in the fight, meaning subsequent stuns won't apply.  Whereas there's no diminishing returns on criticals. In addition, may end game bosses are immune to stun.

2. The Arms tree arguably is build around burst damage.  Overpower, Mortal Strike, and Impale all are build on weapon damage done instantly.  This means that you want the highest maximum damage value possible on the weapon.  And with two weapons with comparable DPS, this usually means that you want the slowest weapon possible.  This tends to play well into Axes.  The Mace Specialization however, is built around getting more hits in, to get more chances to land a stun.  This plays better towards faster weapons, which get in more swings over time.

- The knock on shield spec is that when you reach the high level bosses and enemies in the hardest of instances, the amount blocked is negliable compared to the damage that the enemy actually deals, because it's a flat value, not a %. That being said, I took Shield specialization, and for the instances I do, it works just fine.

Here's one way to do the Arms/Cruelty/Protection build (not in any order):

5 points Cruelty.
2 points Deflection, 3 points Improved Rend
5 points Tactical Mastery
2 points Overpower, 3 points Deep Wounds
3 points 2 Handed weapon spec, 2 points Impale
5 points Axe Specialization
1 point Sweeping strike, 4 points free (suggested places include Improved Hamstring for heavy PVP use, Deflection for better defense, Anger Management for a boost to rage, 2 Handed weapon specialization for even more damage)
1 point in Mortal Strike
5 points Shield Specialization
5 points Toughness
1 point Improved Shield block
3 points Improved Revenge
1 point goes into whatever.

Where this build shines is that you're able to do fairly big damage.  You're looking at +10% base crit ability with just Axe spec and Cruelty.  In addition, you have 6% extra damage whenever you're using a 2h weapon. Deep Wounds and Overpower will serve you well versus Rogues, and if you have Hamstring, you can slow down many classes, especially those without blink. Toughness should help you vs melee classes, and Tactical Mastery is very useful.  Here are a few situations where I'm glad I have tactical mastery:

1. Start in battle stance, swap to defensive stance to disarm an opponent.
2. Swapping from Battle stance to Berzerker stance to use pummel to stop a mage from casting a spell.
3. Charge a flee opponent.  Opponent takes a hit or two, starts running. Change stance to berzerker, use Intercept to stun again, and finish your opponent off.

With regards to aggro control, I like the shield blocking because it automatically leads us to Revenge, which can't be triggered unless you block, dodge, or parry an attack.  With the extra 5% block chance that improved shield spec gives you, that gives you an 80% chance to block an attack, driving up the chances that you're able to block an attack to 4 out of 5, pretty good odds. Revenge, plus the revenge stun do wonders for tanking, and with the stun, give you some free damage mitigation. If you don't really see the value in stunning things, I'd instead go with anticipation, toughness, and probably defiance.

As for aggro control, I've found that a few skills really seem to help.  Shield Block/Revenge combo as a base ability to work with, Taunt in emergencies, and Sunder Armor. Those three skills tend to do a fairly solid of pulling aggro off most players in emergencies.  If things are really dire, I'll swap stances and use Mocking Blow, but that's very rare.  For the sake of brevity, I'm going to post my build in a future post.

Edit: Or hey, I can just post this link instead: http://wow.allakhazam.com/profile.html?102483 and click the Talents tab. If you have any questions about the build, just ask.  And yes, that's on a PvE server.  I don't know if it does enough front-loaded damage to be a safe build on a ganktastic PvP server.

[jpark]

Protection tank here level 34 (10 points in fury balance in protection).

I've taken Defiance to increase the threat of my attacks (pve) but I am wondering about how aggro is elicited in wow (outside taunt):

1.  Attack rate?
2.  Attack power? (damage)
3.  Same attack power, but dual wield or go for 2 hander?

Views on any of these variables in affecting threat level? 

#3 I mean if the attack power is the same, which might be better 1 or 2 handed?

Thanks in advance.

[Fabricated]

I was going to talk about my spec, but heh, I guess it's the cookie cutter.

5 points in cruelty, some points in protection for improved blocking/iron will/toughness, and everything else in arms. I'm going sword spec though.

[jpark]

With regards to aggro control, I like the shield blocking because it automatically leads us to Revenge, which can't be triggered unless you block, dodge, or parry an attack.  With the extra 5% block chance that improved shield spec gives you, that gives you an 80% chance to block an attack, driving up the chances that you're able to block an attack to 4 out of 5, pretty good odds. Revenge, plus the revenge stun do wonders for tanking, and with the stun, give you some free damage mitigation. If you don't really see the value in stunning things, I'd instead go with anticipation, toughness, and probably defiance.

I missed how the block rate can be 80%.  At the start of the protection tree you can increase your block rate by 5% - what am I missing - where does 80% come from?

Also, I understand strength affects the amount of damage you block with - but how does this work mechanically? e.g.  shield has a block rating, but how much is that really modified by strength?

[Lantien]

Jpark: My general understanding on Aggro is that it's generally based off pure damage.  This would explain mages overpulling with their spells, I suppose. Healing also can draw attention (note: apparently Paladin healing doesn't have aggro though). Because of the notion that damage builds aggro, you may be tempted to use either 2 weapons or a large 2H weapon to maximize damage. However, keep in mind that it's not just damage that gets warriors aggro. Here are some basic tools that will also help:

1.Sunder Armor: tends to build a decent amount of aggro. It's effectiveness has gone down a bit because of the redone block/miss/parry rates, since recalculations have improved everyone's to-hit, and by extention, damage rates.

2. Shield Block/Revenge: Probably the best way to get aggro if you have some points in the defensive tree, and it's not bad even if you don't. Revenge generates a lot more aggro than the raw damage it deals.

3. Taunt: Taunt's the easiest one to use, and also one of the weirdest. Keep in mind that Taunt only focuses the attention of the monster on you temporarily; it doesn't actually give you any "aggro points". So you will have to work to build aggro on you while the enemy is still hitting you (this is where shield block/revenge comes in handy). In much smaller, casual encounters, usually getting the attention of the monster on you is enough, because the enemy will fall fast to concentrated combat.  However in higher level instances/boss fights, this probably won't cut it.

4. Mocking Blow: See Taunt, same idea.  It comes in handy for Defensive Spec Warriors who are in emergency mode, or as a comfortable skill to use for Warriors who desire to stay in the Battle Stance.

The main problem with Dual Wield is the built in miss rate with using 2 weapons.  It's somewhere on the order of 25%. However, it's probably the most consistant, smooth gain of rage out of the 2H/Dual Wield/1h and Shield mentality. 2 Handed weapon is quasi-viable.  Basically you're using high damage with normal attacks, Sweeping Strikes/Cleave (does that still work now, or did that get nerfed?), and Mortal Strike, coupled with sunder armor to build aggro. Use Mocking Blow if things get dicey.  Healers aren't crazy about this setup generally because you're forsaking a fair chunk of armor in your shield, coupled with the chance of a block rate, which means on paper more healing required.  On the other hand, with the extra damage you're dealing, proponents of this style of tanking say that stuff dies fast enough that it mitigates the need for more healing.  Your Mileage May Vary, I didn't explore the Arms/Fury path all that much, to be honest. You probably will get funny looks or yelled at if you tank with a 2H weapon in pickup/public instance runs though.

And on a side note, Shield Block increases chance to block by 75% for 5 sec, but will only block 1 attack. Toss in Shield Specialization, and you're looking at around 80% block rate, minimum. Shield Specialization also comes in handy because 5 points are the pre-req to improved shield block, which can block an extra attack. As to the amount that shield block actually mitigates, it appears to be some flat integer value.  As a result, it scales very poorly when you're fighting something that deals insane melee damage.

Fabricated: Actually, I'm pretty interested in how Arms/Protection works in the field. I went Hybrid because I thought it would give me just enough damage dealing options to be fun, with a heavy listing of points in protection to be marginally more effective in Instances. I've promised myself that if I ever got one uber 2 handed weapon, I would consider respeccing and moving towards a more offensive build, like probably Arms/Protection, with Cruelty for damage. I'm curious if in instances, how things would run if I didn't have the ability to spam sunders quicker, or without the shorter cooldown for Taunt.  To be honest, I think those are the most useful skills in the Protection Tree when you get that far in. You end up taking the rest because you've dumped in so many points, that the top end Arms/Fury stuff is out of reach anyways.

[NinjaSteve]

For level 1-60 I was Arms/Fury (31/20) which was defintely the best spec for PvP and for doing damage.  However once I started going into MC/Onyxia I've went 31/5/15 and now I'm 13/5/33 Protection now since I'm the main tank in most of the raids.  Basically being full protection blows ass except for MC/Onxyia because you don't need it for anything else and I hate it for PvP cause it nerfs any real burst dmg I have (I miss Mortal Strike).  I know that some people will say you don't need to be full protection spec for MC or Onyxia but I find that having shield discipline + defiance helps a lot with the aggro.  But if you're not MT in MC or Onyxia I'd probably go the typical Arms/Fury build although I've never tried a full fury build...

[Fabricated]

So far this is what I have at level 44.

Fury:
Cruelty - 5 Points

There's some cool looking stuff in the Fury line, but I just didn't feel like investing the points for Piercing Howl or Improved Intercept.

Arms:
Deflection - 5 Points
Improved Rend - 3 Points
Deep Wounds - 3 Points
Impale - 2 Points
Improved Overpower - 2 Points
Improved Charge - 2 Points
Anger Management - 4 Points (I had an irrational desire to put a point in Sword Specialization instead of maxing this out)
Sword Specialization - 1 Point (Should've waited, but again, irrational desire)
Sweeping Strikes - 1 Point

Protection:
Shield Specialization - 5 Points
Toughness - 2 Points

Note that I didn't sit down and carefully plan this out before starting my character.

It's worked pretty well for me so far. I can tank pretty well and do decent damage. As for PvP, I dunno, and I don't really care since I couldn't give 3/5ths of a shit about PvP.

[Jayce]

That's similar to what I'm doing.  My philosophy is to be a worthy tank in instances (but I may never see MC or Onyxia, so not the really top-end instances), but as I'm on a PvP server, I regard 31 arms as pretty much non-negotiable.

I have my 31 and the rest in protection. I'm now at the point where I have to decide whether to take cruelty for 5% more crit, or just dump it into shield spec.  I used to have Iron Will, but I specced away from it because as far as I can tell, I never resisted any fears, so I think it's broken.  So I put it into toughness and I will probably just go with shield spec and maybe improved revenge.  I had IR but I dropped it, and now I'm starting to miss it a little, but I may still not take it since my mace spec gives me a stun from time to time anyway.

[Fabricated]

That's similar to what I'm doing. My philosophy is to be a worthy tank in instances (but I may never see MC or Onyxia, so not the really top-end instances), but as I'm on a PvP server, I regard 31 arms as pretty much non-negotiable.

I have my 31 and the rest in protection. I'm now at the point where I have to decide whether to take cruelty for 5% more crit, or just dump it into shield spec. I used to have Iron Will, but I specced away from it because as far as I can tell, I never resisted any fears, so I think it's broken. So I put it into toughness and I will probably just go with shield spec and maybe improved revenge. I had IR but I dropped it, and now I'm starting to miss it a little, but I may still not take it since my mace spec gives me a stun from time to time anyway.

I find the extra 5% to crit insanely useful. Against monsters my level and slightly below, I've gotten as many as 5 critical hits in a row, combine that with impale and deep wounds and it rocks. I dueled a mage yesterday and kicked his ass because I critted him 4 times in a row.

[Lantien]

Fabricated: I only went up to Overpower/Anger Management on the Arms side, so I'm Theorycrafting here. I'd suggest getting Protection Tree stuff around the mid-50s, really. It's around the mid-50s that the demand for a warrior who can hold aggro really starts to shine through in instances like Scholomance, and Stratholme, and Blackrock Depths. Generally speaking, you will be soloing with a 2H weapon anyways unless you're in a situation where you're facing a lot of enemies at once. I used to solo in 1h/Shield for a very long time in my 30s, 40s, until I got a Whirlwind Hammer pretty late and realized with a big enough 2h weapon, it's usually better to solo with for the way I grind. Maybe fill out the Sword Spec tree, then you'll have to figure out what to do with your last 3 points.  You could go with one final point in Tactical Mastery and then Anger Management.

It turns out that Anger Management actually gives warriors free rage during combat, on top of just increasing the time required for rage to decay while out of combat. For instance, there's a bug in Zul'Farrak that keeps characters in combat; warriors actually like that to happen, because with Anger Management one can max out their rage waiting for the next fight. Some people consider that free rage gain a must have skill to pick up.  With the easier rage gain after the last major warrior facelift patch, that's a bit debatable now.

I'd go with Cruelty on a PvP server Jayce. To beat a dead horse, that 5% extra crit, when coupled with something like an Axe specialization, as well as berserker stance, then you're talking about some real crit power. With a human's +5 to maces, a 2% crit trinket, and around 100 agility, I'm looking at around 14% criticals in battle stance. With a pretty protection-heavy build. I figure if I was in Berserker stance (+3% crit chance), and was wielding axes with the right spec, I'd be looking at around a 22% critical rate. When you start building around a crit build, 25% crit rates aren't unheard of. When you start taking it to extremes, you get characters like this: http://www.wowrankings.com/viewb.htm?id=18664 Of course, if you're running around in Berserker stance, having a wingman with healing is virtually required. The lack of a stun hurts, but I find mitigating that with hamstring and other movement speed decrease tricks helps if your main concern is having them not run away. And yeah, Iron Will seems broken. Orcs are complaining that their orcish racial stun resistance is broken too, so it makes sense. If/when I respec, I'll probably move the points I put in Iron Will, and drop them into Toughness.

[jpark]

Lantien - thanks for your comments.  I use revenge all the time and had no idea that generated aggro.

[Driakos]

I went with 11 Fury; 5 Arms, and 35 Protection

Arms

Deflection 5/5 [5% Parry]

Fury

Cruelty 5/5 - I think these points are invaluable.

Improved Demoralizing Shout 5/5

Piercing Howl 1/1 - 6 second daze.  Great for runners, great for running away.

Protection

Shield Specialization 5/5 [5% Block]

Anticipation 5/5 [+10 Defence]

Toughness 5/5 [10% more armor from items/equipment]

Improved Revenge 3/3

Improved Shield Block 3/3

Improved Disarm 3/3

Improved Shield Wall 2/2

Improved Shield Bash 2/2 [3 second complete silence]

Concussion Blow 1/1 [Weapon damage + 5 second stun]

One-Handed Weapon Spec 5/5 [10% more damage with 1-handers]

Shield Discipline 1/1 - Great skill, 50% more damage absorbed on blocks, 20 seconds, 45 second cooldown though.  With Thorium shield spikes, I nail casters for 200-300 with a Shield Bash, and silence them as well. 

I do end up chugging a lot of Rage potions, because I dropped Tactical Mastery.  But I am a stunning, aggro holding, damage absorbing juggernaut.  Piercing Howl and Hamstring make sure things don't get far.  When a mob is running, and you hit Piercing Howl, usually it will change directions and come back at you (still in fleeing mode) as well.  Revenge goes off very often.  I do miss Mortal Strike for its instant damage, but I think the stuns tradeoff was worth it.

[jpark]

I am toying with taking my level 34 warrior down the agility path.  When I can, rather than choose gear for Stamina or Strength, I am considering agility.

Agility factors into Armor value, which is most unusual in a game from my experience.  Increasing AG seems to:

Increase Armor
Increase Dodge
Increase critical rate.

I have a DW attack mode with fast attack weapons as a warrior.

I realize the standard logic here is to boost stamina and then strength.  Stamina seems less relevant to me in the game since there are no complete heals - so maximal hitpoints is not as critical as it was in EQ compared to increased Armor.  Strength increases the block damage value of a shield - how much I am unsure, and it also contributes to melee damage. 

Still toying with the build - but for now I am considering focusing on agility.  Don't crazy on me here guys - the gear in the game is not that flexible e.g. any gear acquired for a warrior will still make Stamina or strength my best stat - it is just a matter of how much.

I realize Amor provides no protection against spells.  But I don't see this as a basis for focusing on stamina but rather swapping the "swappable" gear that confers agility for resist gear.

I am 10 points Fury (criticals, 40% rage generation) and balance into Protection.  I dual wield 2 fast attack daggers to get aggro then switch to shield + dagger to tank.  To perform cleave I swap to a 2 hander when possible.

[jpark]

I went with 11 Fury; 5 Arms, and 35 Protection

Arms

Deflection 5/5 [5% Parry]

Protection

Anticipation 5/5 [+10 Defence]

Concussion Blow 1/1 [Weapon damage + 5 second stun]

One-Handed Weapon Spec 5/5 [10% more damage with 1-handers]

Shield Discipline 1/1 - Great skill, 50% more damage absorbed on blocks, 20 seconds, 45 second cooldown though.  With Thorium shield spikes, I nail casters for 200-300 with a Shield Bash, and silence them as well. 

I do end up chugging a lot of Rage potions, because I dropped Tactical Mastery. 

We have a lot that is similar.  Can you comment on:

1.  Defence.  At first I frowned on this but recently I see the +10 points as making a warrior have the DEF of a warrior 2 levels higher which is significant.  Do you notice this ability?  How significant do you find it?

2.  Parry.  Recently started to consider this as well - how limited is it? e.g. does it have a chance of working against all melee attack types?  what about ranged attacks (arrow) or elemental (melee) attacks?

[Driakos]

We have a lot that is similar.  Can you comment on:

1.  Defence.  At first I frowned on this but recently I see the +10 points as making a warrior have the DEF of a warrior 2 levels higher which is significant.  Do you notice this ability?  How significant do you find it?

2.  Parry.  Recently started to consider this as well - how limited is it? e.g. does it have a chance of working against all melee attack types?  what about ranged attacks (arrow) or elemental (melee) attacks?

I like defense because it raises my chance to Block, Dodge and Parry.  .2% per Defense point I think.  So Anticipation gives me 2% more damage avoidance, per type.  I could be wrong on the numbers, but it does directly influence you avoiding damage completely.  The 5% Parry I did simply to complement the +Defense items I've been collecting.  I'd rather avoid the damage than soak it, and getting to use Revenge pretty much as soon as it cools down is nice.

As far as what I can parry, pretty much every melee attack.  If a mob is swinging on you, it seems like you can parry it.  I will have to pay attention and see if I can parry non-magic ranged attacks.  I have deflected shots before, but I am not sure what deflection is.  Is it the attacker missing, or is it something my character did?  I dunno.

We've been trying to figure out a good Dual Wield build too.  The main advantage of it, seems to be massive rage generation.  But what's the best way to dump it all?  A lot of warriors, once they get their hands on an Arcanite Reaper or some other massive two-hand weapon, create Agility set-ups as well.  You can end up with massive 600-900 point criticals on Whirlwinds and Overpowers, and godly Executes.  Downside is who has time to get an Arcanite Reaper or its clones?  I would think you'd also be a healers nightmare in PVE.

[El Gallo]

Each point of defense increases your dodge, parry and block by .04%, so maxing out anticipation will increase your avoidance by a smidge under 0.8% and your mitigation by .4*[shield block value]%. 

However, +defense also reduces the chance of a mob to crit you by an undetermined amount.  Well-equipped warriors can sport +100 defense or more, and report suffering very, very few crits even in MC.  Defense does not appear to reduce PvP crits and some have suggested that defense has no effect at all in pvp.  In any event, if you have the resources or time, it behooves you to have a different set of gear for PvP (I don't, but I don't mind not being great in PvP, and I have a MS/Axe/Reaper build, so I am passable even with armor that is not great for pvp).

Considering that a lot of individual pieces of gear have +15 defense (some have more), anticipation used to be seen as a not-so-great investment.  That was back when shield block would mitigate 100% of a special attack, though, and everyone who spent 6+ points in protection wanted improved sheild block for the extra block.  That makes anticipation more attractive, as does the fact that dodges and parries now generate rage. 

Looking into my crystal ball, I see them seriously nerfing the crit-reduction aspect of +defense (they have already suggested they are looking at it) because I believe the WoW team wants semi-chaotic raids where damage spikes happen often and unpredictably, making healing more fun and getting tanks killed on a semi-regular basis to challenge the raid to react.

I also see them changing the way +attack power damage is calculated so that it no longer benefits slow weapons so much.  This will be a solid nerf to MS/reaper guys but will make many more weapons useful.

They may just go nuclear and change instant attack specials to base on weapon DPS rather than weapon damage, but there would be much howling and gnashing of teeth from warriors and rogues that I have trouble seeing them do this.
   

[Righ]

Warrior builds really aren't too difficult. NinjaSteve is on the money when he says that the only real gain for protection++ is MC/Onyxia MT. Keep that for somebody who is bored playing their warrior and who will log it on when you do those raids.

MS is vital, and nothing in any talent tree can undo its godliness. +crit is also a no brainer. PvP works best 31/20, and instance tank works best 31/5/15 pretty much as Lantien described. Iron will is worthless, just as the Orc racial ability is. Until somebody fixes the % improvement to make it additive instead of a multiplier of the base percentage, it isn't worth five talent points for 0.75% improvement.

There really is no alternative to a slow axe. Arcanite Reaper is the holy grail for good reason, but if you are prepared to do the maths and can live with a proc instead of +attack, The Nicker actually averages out at fractionally more damage per hit than the Reaper. You can get this from a rare spawn by the name of Blackstone Battle Lord in Blackrock Spire. Until then, Dreadforge Retaliator is very farmable if you have a competant mage to deal with the Lyceum. Rivenspike and Serathil are two of the better tanking axes. You can get >20% critical on a 2H axe without zerk stance and without sacrificing much +Str and +Sta if you are careful about what you pick armor wise - however, this gear will take some cash or collecting. Some +def stuff and revenge will let an MS warrior be a perfectly good main tank for everything barring the uber raids.

[jpark]

I also see them changing the way +attack power damage is calculated so that it no longer benefits slow weapons so much.  This will be a solid nerf to MS/reaper guys but will make many more weapons useful.

Thanks.

I missed your point in this part of your post.  hehe obviously I am missing something - if two weapons have the same dps - and assuming your are not swapping weapons for a single attack - the power of all weapons with the same dps should be the same, regardless their attack speed?  Correct?

[Righ]

Currently, it works like this:

Attack DPS = Attack / 14

Damage = ( DPS from weapon +  Attack DPS ) * Weapon Delay

Assume a warrior with 700 Attack, simply because it makes for easy math. 700/14 = 50, so we add that to the base DPS and multiply by the speed.

Arcanite Reaper: (53.8 + 50) * 3.8 = 394.44

The Nicker: (49.8 + 50) * 4 = 399.2

The AR has +62 Attack as a passive benefit, so it adds (62/14) * 3.8 = 16.83 damage for a total of 411.27. The Nicker adds a 5% proc of 50-150 damage, for 5 damage per swing average, plus a DoT of 6 damage per second for 25s, which equates to a further average of 7.5 (based on the standard proc being 5%). Therefore the average from The Nicker becomes 399.2 + 12.5 = 411.7.

These two weapons are at the extreme. Lets look at a higher DPS 2H axe with faster swing:

Brain Hacker: (56.7 + 50) * 2.1 = 224.07

Add in its proc of average 250 damage (250/20) = 224.07 + 12.5 = 236.57

Ever six seconds you should be able to use the instant "mortal strike": 411.27 - 236.57 = 174.7. The AR is doing that much more damage on each hit. From the mortal strike alone, that's another 29.12 DPS, so the Brain Hacker, despite its neat purple color and impressive DPS, doesn't come close to the AR.

What will change in the future if anything to make faster weapons more palatable for warriors (and rogues) is anybody's guess.

[El Gallo]

It took me a while to understand too, because it is counterintuitive.  Attack power adds +dps.  When auto-attacking, + attack power increases the damage of fast weapons and slow weapons equally (so a 10 dps 2.0 speed sword and a 10 dps 4.0 speed sword gain the same amount of damage from autoattacks over time from, say, your battle shout).

However, instant attacks with slow weapons gain more increased damage from attack power than instant attacks with faster weapons.  This is because + attack adds dps rather than damage.  With the 4.0 speed weapon, your MS (or overpower, or sinister strike, or whatever) gets 4.0 seconds worth of + attack power bonus added to the MS.  With the fast weapon, you only get 2.0 seconds worth of + attack power bonus added to the MS.

e.g.: you have +100 damage per second from attack power.  With a 2.0 speed weapon you get +200 damage bonus per swing from that.  With a 4.0 speed weapon you get a + 400 damage bonus per swing from that.

So, considering a MS warrior will use instants as well as autoattacks, attack power adds more to their total damage with a slow weapon than a fast weapon, even if dps is the same (indeed, even if the fast weapon has a somewhat higher listed dps).

(This is in addition to the fact that the slow weapon does twice the damage on every swing as the twice-as-fast weapon with the same dps, which obviously benefits slow weapons with instant attacks.  Deep wounds favors slow weapons for the same reason.  But the + attack power issue makes this disparity even greater, and most people don't realize it exists.  In fact, the Arc Reaper, which does 153-256 base damage per hit (53.8 dps/3.8 speed) would actually do more damage PER HIT than the Spinal Reaper, which does base 203-305 damage per hit (74.7 dps, 3.4 speed), if you had 1500 attack power just because of the attack power bonus--of course that won't make the arcanite reaper a better weapon unless you almost never use autoattack, but it is a pretty striking example.)

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-warrior&t=236847&p=1&tmp=1#post236847

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-warrior&t=236544&p=1&tmp=1#post236544

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-warrior&t=233011&p=1&tmp=1#post233011

edit: beaten like a rented mule

[Lantien]

Scrolling Up, Righ and Gallo in a few lines of text explain what I've been struggling to say for multiple posts now.  Thank you for explaining it in simple terms and examples. This is why the Axe/slow weapon Builds are so dominant on the warrior(combat with respect to instant attacks, really) landscape, and why there's been some talk about modifying things.

jpark, The traditional argument against the pure agility build is that while damage is fine, a warrior in an instance's two primary duties are to hold aggro, and stay alive. Holding aggro via pure damage is doable, but it's hardly required.  Competant weapons and those aggro tricks discussed earlier go a long way towards holding aggro in an acceptable manner, I've found. Staying alive is primarily done through Stamina.  I've found in limited PVP that having a gross amount of stamina tends to help even against magical attacks which bypass armor, better than going with a boatload of resistance gear.  The argument goes that with stamina loaded up, you can take melee hits really well with armor mitigation, and you'll have enough HP to survive difficult magical attacks well enough to run away. I'll look up the Crit rate with respect to agi points later; as I recall it's not really pretty, when you realize how much Stamina you'd have to forsake. It's doable, just probably more difficult.

Righ pretty much nails it with respect to warrior builds. I have a moderately heavy protection build precisely because I instance more than I can expect to PvP on an PvE server. On the other hand, The big things I like about the protection build that I can really justify are Improved Taunt, the silence associated with Improved Shield Bash, and Improved Revenge/Shield Block.  The rest are pretty much gravy, or because I put in so many points in the tree anyways, that the marginally useful skills become worth it.

I'm pretty much one legit 2 handed weapon away from going 31/5/15. Currently, I have a Green Hammer that's around 47 DPS, and a Truesilver Champion, around 45 DPS.  Probably a bit too low to honestly muck around with Mortal Strike for my tastes.  However, I will say that I'll be missing Piercing Howl the most, with that setup.  Piercing Howl in Group vs Group combat is insanely useful; it also does a good job of helping others run away from NPC guards far enough to where the guards stop chasing, or decide to chase someone else. If you manage to break the opponent's morale, Piercing Howl does a great job of slowing guys down enough for Paladins to catch up and stun them, or other sort of root attacks to kick in.

As for fearless predictions...

1) The Community Managers have gone on record saying they are going to re-evaluate the other trees besides Arms, basically signaling that they've botched them.

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-warrior&t=218885&p=1&tmp=1#post218885

2) Rumors are around that weapon speeds will be rebalanced. The cynic in me says they'll do it by nerfing slow speed weapons, not by giving fast weapon speed abilities a leg up.

http://n3rfed.blogs.com/n3rfed/2005/05/no_wow_patch_no.html

[Jayce]

In general I wish just one major MMOG dev house would not worry about fine-point balancing their game, because usually they end up breaking it.  Having slow weapons as king might be an unintended effect, it's the way the game is.  Everyone knows it and everyone is playing the same game.

Mucking around is SO much more likely to cause damage to the class than to make it better.  I hope they just leave well enough alone.

[Pococurante]

In most games the point of a faster wep speed is to disrupt the finger wagglers and to even out the dps to a more predictable rate.  Bringing down damage on slower weps seems a safer bet to avoid unintended consequences than enhancing the faster ones.

[jpark]

Okay there is a lot for me to think about there.  Thanks for the detailed examples Righ and El Gallo.

Lantien -  I bring up agility not just for damage - as I am well aware that the function of a warrior is to survive - but to also increase his armor and dodge.

That's my thinking - but maybe stamina over rules this.

[Strazos]

In most games the point of a faster wep speed is to disrupt the finger wagglers and to even out the dps to a more predictable rate.  Bringing down damage on slower weps seems a safer bet to avoid unintended consequences than enhancing the faster ones.

Does weapon damage even interrupt in WoW? As I remember, it will Delay the spell a bit, but not truly interrupt it (burning the mana cost, forcing the skill to recharge).

[jpark]

In most games the point of a faster wep speed is to disrupt the finger wagglers and to even out the dps to a more predictable rate.  Bringing down damage on slower weps seems a safer bet to avoid unintended consequences than enhancing the faster ones.

Does weapon damage even interrupt in WoW? As I remember, it will Delay the spell a bit, but not truly interrupt it (burning the mana cost, forcing the skill to recharge).

Yes it does based on my 29 Priest.  However, there are talents the priest can take to address this problem (focused casting - 8 second uniterruptable cast), in addition to some casts that will prevent interruption for a period of time (e.g. power word shield).

So .... melee interruption of casting is more of an issue for lower level casters - and less of an issue once they gain some abilities on a timer and slot some talents.  This same phoneomona played out in EQ.

[Phred]

In most games the point of a faster wep speed is to disrupt the finger wagglers and to even out the dps to a more predictable rate.  Bringing down damage on slower weps seems a safer bet to avoid unintended consequences than enhancing the faster ones.

Does weapon damage even interrupt in WoW? As I remember, it will Delay the spell a bit, but not truly interrupt it (burning the mana cost, forcing the skill to recharge).

Yes it does based on my 29 Priest.  However, there are talents the priest can take to address this problem (focused casting - 8 second uniterruptable cast), in addition to some casts that will prevent interruption for a period of time (e.g. power word shield).

So .... melee interruption of casting is more of an issue for lower level casters - and less of an issue once they gain some abilities on a timer and slot some talents.  This same phoneomona played out in EQ.

I'm afraid you are wrong. Normal melee attacks never fully interrupt a spell, only cause it to be delayed by knocking the timer bar back a fraction. The only way to have a spell fully interrupted is by a special attack that specifically does an interrupt, like sheild bash, rogue kick, etc. Mobs, even low level mobs, have a lot of special attacks not available to players to do this. Maybe you're missing them in the combat spam if you think normal melee attacks are completely interrupting your casting.

[jpark]

In most games the point of a faster wep speed is to disrupt the finger wagglers and to even out the dps to a more predictable rate.  Bringing down damage on slower weps seems a safer bet to avoid unintended consequences than enhancing the faster ones.

Does weapon damage even interrupt in WoW? As I remember, it will Delay the spell a bit, but not truly interrupt it (burning the mana cost, forcing the skill to recharge).

Yes it does based on my 29 Priest.  However, there are talents the priest can take to address this problem (focused casting - 8 second uniterruptable cast), in addition to some casts that will prevent interruption for a period of time (e.g. power word shield).

So .... melee interruption of casting is more of an issue for lower level casters - and less of an issue once they gain some abilities on a timer and slot some talents.  This same phoneomona played out in EQ.

I'm afraid you are wrong. Normal melee attacks never fully interrupt a spell, only cause it to be delayed by knocking the timer bar back a fraction.

True.  That's what I meant - thanks for the correction.

Question about strength.  How important is this attribute?  It helps block for more damage and does add to melee damage.  Anyone have any idea how numerically meaningful these effects are?

[Kageru]

I'm 11/5/rest. I would happily dump shield specialization but it's a pre-requisite for putting a point in shield block. I'd love to have anticipation but I'm short on talent points as it is so would rather leave that for gear to add. I can also say that protection spec reduces in effectiveness in MC. Your only ever tanking one mob there and they are all stun / silence immune. Shield block also becomes meaningless (even with shield discipline) but avoidance becomes more powerful the harder the mobs hit for. As for gear you need to balance out AC, HP and +defence for tanking. Resists would be nice too but you can only really get that on raid gear without crippling yourself.

I'm resigned to sucking in PvP =)

[jpark]

I am coming to the conclusion that stamina is over rated for warriors.

I was a 62 warrior in EQ - which was not bad - so take my comments in context.

1.  There are no complete heals in WoW.  Max hp were key in games like EQ due to the Complete heal.

2.  Stamina does not scale with multiple attackers.  With each extra mob high stamina diminishes quickly.  However, Def, Armor, Agility benefits are fully applied to each extra attacker for dodge/mitigation.

3.  Gear choices for WoW warriors are limited.  You are going to have a lot of Str and Stam regardless which warrior gear you choose.  This is based on what I have been told - I am only level 34. So... when you do have a "choice" going for gear other than stamina in my mind makes sense.

My current thinking:  Armor, Defense and Agility.   All of these either contribute to damage mitigation or dodge.

[Rasix]

High stamina helps to avoid the "OHH FUCK THE BOSS MOB JUST CRITTED ME FOR 3K THEN CLEAVED FOR ANOTHER 2k".  In essence, the more wiggle room you have, the more chance your raid isn't going to die because of bad luck and timing.   In PVP, I can't count how many times I've healed a warrior from the point of near death to keep them alive.  Heh, 1000 less max HP and they'd be licking dirt. 

There are no diminishing returns on HP.