DDO Alpha Signups

[SirBruce]

Wow, that's just... wrong.  There is a LOT more different between a Sorc and a Wizard than just that.  But getting to your point, it doesn't matter how long the rest period is... Wizards won't be able to do it in the middle of combat to switch spells, whereas Sorcs will.  That's the main benefit of the Sorc.

As for your NWN problem with your friend mocking you for taking so long to finish the dungeon, hey, that's the price you pay for eventually being able to cast megaspells that far outstrip the abilities of meleers in later levels.  Given that this is hardly "real time", any downside is 99% psychological.  (The 1% is if they actually are going to make character aging an issue.)

And I think you answer your own question regarding the "limited ability" phase of a low-level character.  Since they give out experience for doing the quest, they can easily make the early quests give out lots of experience to level you quickly during that stretch.   And you won't have to waste boring stretches of time wacking foozles.

Finally, I agree that at low levels having 1-2 spells would be seriously boring to play... that's why in 3.5E Wizards start with all 0-level spells and 3 1st-level spells, plus bonus spells.

Bruce

[El Gallo]

As for your NWN problem with your friend mocking you for taking so long to finish the dungeon, hey, that's the price you pay for eventually being able to cast megaspells that far outstrip the abilities of meleers in later levels. 

"Some classes start out shitty and end up uber, while other classes start out uber and end up shitty" is an awful idea for a game like this, where everyone ends up a high level.  Like several other awful ideas in classic D&D, it was workable only because good DMs worked around it.  In a MMOG (or Diablo2/Guildwars game, whatever the hell DDO is going to be) it is a one way ticket to pain.

[SirBruce]

Well, I think you've presented a straw man.  It's not such a simple dichotomy.  I'd put it more like "Some classes start weaker and end stronger; other classes start good and remain good."  Keep in mind, too, that different classes are good at different things.

I agree that isn't necessarily the best paradigm for an MMOG, but that's the price you have to pay to have a D&D license.  The good news here is that 3E and 3.5E did a lot to make meleers rock at higher levels via feats and such, so there's no longer the big disparity that there used to be.  Still, yes, there are going to be times when you're tired of casting magic missile and fireball over and over.  Guess what?  I'm tired of swinging my sword over and over, too.

Bruce

[Riggswolfe]

Here is my worry:

We've all seen a game that has a license, and ends up having so little to do with that license in the end that we all disliked it. SWG anyone? (Though admittedly, it has alot of mechanics problems, alot of people also felt it wasn't Star Wars either.)

I think this is why Bruce is so against the wizard spell change. Me too. That, and I'm so sick and tired of devs thinkings spell slingers need to totally dominate an MMO.

[HaemishM]

Of course, people have different opinion on what constitutes the integrity of the game.

Gameplay first, licensing bullshit second. Yes, it's Dungeons and Dragons Online, but that should not mean they are stuck so slavishly to the written ruleset that the gameplay suffers. Pen and paper mechanics do not translate to online, massively multiplayer play. NWN proved that, and it wasn't even massively multiplayer. I could just as easily argue that by making combat real-time or quasi-real-time instead of turn-based, they have taken it far enough away from Dungeons and Dragons mechanics as to render it an entirely different game. And yes, they have done just that. Why would you shackle the game developers with a license that doesn't allow them to make the best kind of game they want to make?

The dynamics of pen and paper D&D, or any other style of PNP RPG, are completely suited to that style of play. The time compression works in reverse too. In MMOG's, who use quasi-real-time combat, a combat can take a few minutes; fights lasting longer than 10 minutes are rare, usually relegated to raid-style encounters. In a PNP RPG, those same fights, whether trivial or not, will often take no less than 20-30 minutes, often more, because of all the calcuating, hemming and hawing, chart-looking, dice-rolling and movement tracking that such a thing requires. MMOG's handle it differently, even when they emulate exactly the turn-based mechanics of the PNP games, such as in the Gold Box series of D&D games.

If Turbine wanted to piss away $10-20 million on a literal translation of D&D, they'd seriously be limiting their audience to only people who like D&D. Considering how much the license probably costs them, I'd imagine they'd want to make a more broadly appealing game than just to D&D geektards. Ergo, ditch the shit that won't translate well, such as the rest system.

[Furiously]

 

If Turbine wanted to piss away $10-20 million on a literal translation of D&D, they'd seriously be limiting their audience to only people who like D&D. Considering how much the license probably costs them, I'd imagine they'd want to make a more broadly appealing game than just to D&D geektards. Ergo, ditch the shit that won't translate well, such as the rest system.

If you name your product D&D online, I would think your primary target would be people who like D&D. The further you get from the D&D rules the more I would think you would risk losing your target audience. Then again - as long as they make it fun it probably doesnt matter.

[Roac]

If you name your product D&D online, I would think your primary target would be people who like D&D.

The specific lore, rulesets, and so forth for any IP are purchased for MMOG (movie, etc) development *because* people who are fans of that IP will look favorably on the new version of their old favorite.  Predictably, it is useful to come pretty close to the IP or else you get piss reviews written by irate fans, which defeated the point.  It's seen as misadvertisement.However, if you computerized the rulebook, you would hit on a revelation:

as long as they make it fun it probably doesnt matter.

That one.  Have to have priorities in order; when fun and IP come into conflict, fun must win.  You don't get the public to spend hundreds of millions on a boring duplicate.  If it's a break from tradition, but fun, they'll forgive you (well enough).  If it's a break and boring, you'll be flayed alive.  If it's boring, but technically correct, you'll still be flayed alive, because only the most stern fanbois can tolerate it, and the five of them won't pay your rent.

[Bunk]

Why would you shackle the game developers with a license that doesn't allow them to make the best kind of game they want to make?

Well, because without a license or IP to start - you end up with Asheron's Call. An absolutely f'in wonderful game, that almost no one played.

Honestly, i fully agree with you Haemish, but you know the answer to your own questions. Insert Penny-Arcade link to comic of guy in money hat here:_____

[El Gallo]

Or Everquest, which was close enough to the familiar D&D archetype to resonate with players yet not shackled by a license that leads people to scream bloody murder when you make obvious MMO design decisions like using a time/mana spell system rather than a rest/charges spell system.

AC had a lot of charm and I will always have a soft spot in my heart for it, but its relative lack of success had nothing to do with its lack of a license and everything to do with the fact that it just was not as good as its competitors in the eyes of most potential customers.

[Margalis]

I would argue that Star Wars has a lot more identifiable elements than D&D. What about D&D is all that distinctive? It has fairly generic classes, fairly generic enemies, and a fairly generic feel. I think it's a weak license to begin with because it doesn't convey a whole lot. I mean, D&D is fighting Trolls and Dragons and shit, same as every other fantasy game out there. I mean I don't think you're going to see a Troll and say to yourself "wow, now this is really D&D!"

I would also say there is a LOT of danger in trying to port a PnP rule system to the computer. In a PnP game you have 4-8 guys playing once a week. In a MMORPG you have thousands of players spending thousands of hours banging away on every available spell, every available class, special item, etc, with no DM to police things. I'm sure using the D&D ruleset as is people would quickly discover game-breaking elements that really don't matter in the PnP version. Within days some classes will fall by the wayside and some will be considered super-powered, due to the incredible increase in available data.

I would put it like this: If you play poker once a week casually, the difference between AA and AK probably isn't too noticeable. If you have thousands of hand histories to look at it's plain as day that AA is way better. I would expect the same in any PnP to MMORPG conversion.

[Murgos]

In a MMORPG you have thousands of players spending thousands of hours banging away on every available spell, every available class, special item, etc, with no DM to police things. I'm sure using the D&D ruleset as is people would quickly discover game-breaking elements that really don't matter in the PnP version.

Heh, trust me every concievable weakness in the D&D ruleset has been exploited to an infinite degree by some watery-eyed munchkin in some basement somewhere while DM'ing his own solo campaign.  The exploiters in MMOG's are like grade-schoolers when it comes to the number crunching D&D geeks will do to get an advantage.

I'm not even going to chime in on your D&D is generic fantasy thing other than to say you've got your chickens and eggs confused.

[Margalis]

Heh, trust me every concievable weakness in the D&D ruleset has been exploited to an infinite degree by some watery-eyed munchkin in some basement somewhere while DM'ing his own solo campaign.  The exploiters in MMOG's are like grade-schoolers when it comes to the number crunching D&D geeks will do to get an advantage.

I'm not even going to chime in on your D&D is generic fantasy thing other than to say you've got your chickens and eggs confused.

Yes, but in a basement the brokeness *doesn't matter.* People roleplay. People have fun with lesser characters. Playing a dim-witted sloth can be a good time, and it isn't really a competitive environment. And the DM always has discretion. MMORPGs are competitions, even if they don't have PvP they are still competitions of the passive-aggressive variety. And don't forget people will play a MMORPG for hours a day, and an hour of MMORPG time is going to equal a day of PnP time. In one day you might take place in 50 different encounters. With that many people banging away trends are going to emerge, and they are going to be shared using the power of the internets.

That's not a knock on D&D rules. It's a knock on trying to translate them directly to another environment and expecting it to work seemlessly. There will be problems, and hopefully adherence to the rules won't superscede solving them.

As far as the chickens and eggs, it doesn't matter. D&D may have gotten a lot of those balls rolling, but at this point it's not very distinguishable from a bunch of other things. A dragon is a dragon is a dragon, it doesn't matter that D&D had the first dragon or whatever, the point is now everybody has it. There have been enough knockoffs that at this point there isn't much to distinguish a knockoff from the original. Again that's not a knock on D&D, in some ways they are victims of their own success. But the fact remains there aren't a lot of classes or spells or monsters in D&D that say "wow, now THAT'S D&D!" (Rock on!) Whereas Star Wars has the glow sticks and AT-ATs.

When I think of D&D I think of Wizards and Clerics and such bonking Owlbears and Displacer Beasts or whatever. Which is almost exactly the same thing I think of when I think of any other fantasy game. What are the major distinguishing characteristics?

Again I'm not trying to be a dick. But I don't see a huge difference between the world of EQ, the World of D&D, and the old King of the Dragons arcade game.

[SirBruce]

The fact YOU don't see a difference doesn't mean there ISN'T a difference.  And when we try to point out the stuff that is D&D, you complain that it isn't compatible with your idea of what a MMOG should be.  I submit that DDO simply may not be the game for you.

Bruce

[Shockeye]

The fact YOU don't see a difference doesn't mean there ISN'T a difference.

The fact YOU think there's a difference doesn't mean there IS a difference.

Move on.

[SirBruce]

The fact YOU don't see a difference doesn't mean there ISN'T a difference.

The fact YOU think there's a difference doesn't mean there IS a difference.

Actually, it pretty much does - it means it makes a difference TO ME.  That's part of the beauty that underlies personal taste -- someone else can disagree with it, but they can't invalidate your perception, because in this case the perception is what's at stake.

But that's beside the point.  What matters is whether or not enough other people see a difference for it to matter in the marketplace.  Well, I've actually provided some facts that explain what the differences are.  The other side has basically said those particulars are not important to them, but that doesn't mean they are not important to others.

Move on.

Nothing to see here.

Bruce

[AOFanboi]

The big problem is probably the setting: When D&D fans think of the IP associated with it, they think Dragonlance, Forgotten Realms, Ravenloft, Planescape. Hell, even Dark Sun or the world described in the old Gazeteer publications. Any of those and people will be willing to accept the ruleset.

They do not think of a steampunk world created for the 3.5 edition.

It smells like SW:G all over again: A license strip-mined for names and looks, applied to a game that will not satisfy the licensed property's fan base.

[Hoax]

Bruce you are so wrong on this one...

He's absolutely right there is almost nothing special about a DnD mmog at this point.  Yes it should feel a little more DnD and things should be very familiar to PnP players (feat names, spell names, ect) but the look/feel/effects of the spells and abilities are not going to be outside the box.  The character development system wont take us anywhere new, nor will the item system really.

The monsters?  Well as others have pointed out they are using this "new" world but yeah I would expecet certain monsters to be more familiar to DnD players but its still mostly going to be the same old fantasy lineup.  Just because they invented it, doesn't make it NOT the same old same old.

[Signe]

Will there be crafting in this game? 

[Jamiko]

Every PnP session of D&D I have been involved in had the DM changing rules on the fly to make the session more fun. Not every fan of D&D is a hardcore rulemonger. We played to get together and have fun. The same goes for DDO, if it is fun we will play. I don't give a crap if it follows the PnP rules to the letter or not. We changed the rules to make it more fun, I would expect them to do the same.

Besides, they claim the change is even in the rules so why the bitching? And Bruce said they did not appear to have tested the original system, but of course they did: "Still, our first implementation with any system for DDO has been to be as loyal as possible to the D&D rules, and so we started out using the exact numbers from the PHB for spells per day. And while we predicted the problem of spell shortage, our playtesting showed that we had underestimated its severity. Clearly, something needed to be done."

http://www.ddo.com/index.php?page_id=84

[Margalis]

So what is the major difference between D&D and any other fantasy thing, setting and flavor wise? Owlbears? It's a serious question. You can say the same about MEO to some degree, although MEO allows for some more plot and name-dropping.

[Jamiko]

So what is the major difference between D&D and any other fantasy thing, setting and flavor wise? Owlbears? It's a serious question. You can say the same about MEO to some degree, although MEO allows for some more plot and name-dropping.

For me, there isn't anything unique and special about D&D setting and flavor wise. When I think of D&D, I think of getting together at someone's house eating pizza and staying up all night. Oftentimes spending 30 minutes debating on whether we should open the locked door or perhaps go down the stairs. Having a person as a DM, was a big part of it for me. D&D was merely a set of rules and guidelines that helped us have a fun time. I fail to see how this can translate well into an MMO in any way shape or form.

Most every MMO I have played has felt like what I imagined D&D online would feel like.

[MaceVanHoffen]

So what is the major difference between D&D and any other fantasy thing, setting and flavor wise?

That was the whole point of D&D:  it was generic, so that you could put any milieu on top of the game mechanics.  It was a skeleton on which you hung the flesh of a story, be it Middle Earth, a store-bought module, or something the DM came up with.  All the books I remember had Greek, Persian, Chinese, Japanese, etc mythologies mixed together in a melange that you could pick and choose from for your particular campaign.

D&D was never a fantasy setting at all; rather, it was a fantasy ruleset.

[SirBruce]

Exactly.  The point of D&D is not the setting, it's the game design and mechanics.

Bruce

[Signe]

I never played D&D so I have little idea what anyone's talking about. 

Is there phat loot?

[Margalis]

The problem is a lot of the design and mechanics are going to change in the translation. That's why I think it's a weal license, and why Star Wars is a strong one. (Ignoring SWG suckage)

[Bunk]

I never played D&D so I have little idea what anyone's talking about. 

Is there phat loot?

phat lewts - check
crafting - check
level treadmill - check

See, everything you need for the perfect MMoG.

Honestly though, I just hope the instancing will give it more of an NWN type of feel. I'll likely give it a chance, but I don't expect much. I loved the Baldur's Gate stuff because of the strong stories and the interesting NPCs. I have yet to see an MMoG convey a good story in an interesting or engaging way. Who knows though.

[Signe]

phat lewts - check
crafting - check
level treadmill - check

See, everything you need for the perfect MMoG.

Woo hoo!  I'm in, baby!

[Der Helm]

Just signed in, but they won't let germans (europeans) non americans in, right ?

[Cheddar]

Not sure if this is the place, and please do not think this a flame/troll post, but is there a way to completely block Bruce from my internet?  Can I block his posts from appearing as I read?  Thanks!

[Signe]

I know someone who knows someone.  I'll ask if they can send Bruce to a different internet. 

[Trippy]

Can I block his posts from appearing as I read?  Thanks!

The lack of Usenet newsreader-style killfiles is something I definitely miss in these newfangled Web boards.

[Velorath]

Exactly.  The point of D&D is not the setting, it's the game design and mechanics.

Even the mechanics have changed a lot over the years though.  If most PnP players can accept editions 2, 3, and 3.5, do you think they'd really object to a handful of changes to the rules for DDO?  Speaking for myself, 3 and 3.5 don't really have the same D&D feel to me that 1st and 2nd edition have.  I can't really get too worked up if DDO doesn't come out as an exact translation of 3.5

[Murgos]

It probably wouldn't take a lot of effort to put a 'kill Bruce' button on the bottom of the page that sets a variable to 1 when clicked then you could put a little bit of code in the part where it spits out the db field for the post to something like if user==384 and killbruce==1 then print nothing.  His posts would still be there, people who want to see them still could but those who didn't would just have a nice black box.  If the page is properly formatted it probably wouldn't break any of the layout.

There is obviously more to think about, like preserving state and what do you do about quoted text?  But it would work in a half assed way.

[Calandryll]

I think the issue with the setting would be true if the setting for DDO was Forgotten Realms, Dragon Lance, etc. But the fact that it's Eberron really sets it apart. The Eberron setting is really different than any other fantasy MMO I've ever played. It's very apparent when you walk around Stormreach and explore the dungeons that you aren't in a vanilla fantasy MMO at all while still maintaining the feel for what one would expect in a D&D based game.

[Zane0]

Well, I myself would drop my WoW character for a forgotten realms MMO- I'm stupidly addicted to that setting from all the Baldur's Gate and IWD.

The posters who maintain that the setting and tone is more important than the ruleset when it comes to attracting initial MMO interest are likely correct.  This doesn't mean that D&D is doomed per se, but a random MMO would probably have about the same chances as this would.  I doubt there are many PnP players who have been holding out from the online RPG market in hopes for a true online interpretation of their ruleset.  Those PnP fans who have been playing online obviously aren't too attached to the license.