DDO Alpha Signups

[Calandryll]

Figured ya'll might be interested in this. We opened up registrations for the DDO Alpha today.

http://www.ddo.com/index.php?page_id=66&pagebuilder[module]=article&pagebuilder[display_item]=43

[SirBruce]

Thanks, Cal; sign-up completed. :)

Bruce

[kaid]

Ah cool. I am such a old school d&d geek I just have to sign up for this. I am very curious how this game will play out because it sounds like they are trying some really different things. It will be interesting to see how they really play out in game.


kaid

[Alkiera]

Also signed up.  I like the direction they are taking the genre with DDO... no xp from kills, etc.  D&D 3/3.5 allows for a decent amount of tactics when fighting, I'm hoping these are translated at least somewhat to the MMO environment... but I'm not holding my breath.

Alkiera

[kaid]

If clerics in DDO are like clerics in 3rd or 3.5 edition I am SOOOOO going to make a cleric. I really enjoyed the last 3rd edition cleric I made. Very tough decent melee and some fun spells to play with and I didn't have to worry so much about filling all my spell slots with heals.

kaid

[Alkiera]

If clerics in DDO are like clerics in 3rd or 3.5 edition I am SOOOOO going to make a cleric. I really enjoyed the last 3rd edition cleric I made. Very tough decent melee and some fun spells to play with and I didn't have to worry so much about filling all my spell slots with heals.

kaid

Aye, 3.5 clerics rock.  The new domain abilities are pretty cool too... Magic domain gives you a nice group of typical wizzy spells, and the ability to use wands and scrolls as if you were a wizard 1/2 your cleric level.  Sweetness.

And then there's Divine Power... a.k.a. Warrior in a bottle.

Alkiera

[kaid]

My priest was a cleric of a strenght deity so I got access to bulls strenght as one of my special powers. That buff I think lasted for something like 2 or 4 HOURS. During that time my clerics already high strenght was augmented up very nicely so I was hitting about as much as the warriors were and my damage was not much less.

I will be VERY curious to see what kind of deity choices you get in DDO or if you just get a generic cleric and don't get to choose your god.


kaid

[Samwise]

3.5 nerfed all the stat buff spells down to reasonable levels - they're measured in minutes now, not hours.  At high levels they get ridiculous - my 3.0 D&D campaign has an average character level of 17, so the spellcasters can cast stat buffs on the rest of the party at the beginning of the day and have them last until bedtime.  Pretty ridiculous for a 2nd-level spell.

[Riggswolfe]

I like 3.5 because it made fighters truly useful. The ability to have 15 feats or so to any other classes 7 or so is awesome.

I still wish they'd gone with another setting, but then again, steampunk could be a nice change in an MMO. I may have to go pick up the setting and read it, just in case.

And yes, I signed up. And yes, this could be the game I will drop either COH or WoW for.

[Fabricated]

I'm very interested in seeing the combat/magic system. If the magic system is anything remotely close to DnD there's going to be a lot of pissed off kids who want instant gratification.

"WTF Y DONT I HAV MP? WHRE MY SPELS GO?"

[HRose]

Signing for betas is so retro'.

[schild]

Signing for betas is so retro'.

You're right. We and every other gaming related site should just IP Ban italy.

Trolling leech.

[Calandryll]

I'm very interested in seeing the combat/magic system. If the magic system is anything remotely close to DnD there's going to be a lot of pissed off kids who want instant gratification.

"WTF Y DONT I HAV MP? WHRE MY SPELS GO?"

Our senior game designer actually wrote a dev. diary about the spell system back in early March.

http://www.ddo.com/index.php?page_id=84

[SirBruce]

Wow.  All I can say is -- disappointing decision.  Don't get me wrong; it might work for the game.  But it won't be D&D.

The problem of limited spellcasting at early levels should be addressed by the dungeon design, not by changing the character system.  To wit:

1. The standard system suggests resting every 4-5 fights and you have it every 20.  So, change it.  Make it every 4-5.  You claim that'll be a ridiculous amount of rest, but so long as resting *times* are short, it won't be a big deal.  Heck, in most MMOGs people spend some time "resting" (even if it's just catching their breath) after every fight.

2. If you're worried about too many rest periods, then make the dungeons shorter.  Make the dungeon 10 encounters instead of 20.

3. Spell-casters in general need several low-level encounters they can take out with their staff and robe, rather than their spells.  Later on, they'll have a variety of magic items to assist them.  But you can't go into your design thinking, "Okay, a fighter can swing his sword every battle, so the wizard should be casting spells every battle."  That's not D&D.

Hopefully, these points were argued in those same design meetings, and there were reasons you came up with why you couldn't do things that way.  I fear your solution has essentially made high-level wizards completely unbalanced, since they'll be able to cast way more spells than the rulebooks every envisioned.

Bruce

[Fabricated]

Hopefully, these points were argued in those same design meetings, and there were reasons you came up with why you couldn't do things that way. I fear your solution has essentially made high-level wizards completely unbalanced, since they'll be able to cast way more spells than the rulebooks every envisioned.

If the spells are very close to their PnP counterparts, they'll be overpowered anyway, especially if there's PvP.

Imagine a high level wizard bumping into a large party of lower level characters. If there's open PvP, that party is one Wail of The Banshee away from a corpse run.

[Shockeye]

I can't say spell points is a bad decision based on the direction things were going.

I guess we'll see how it plays out.

[Xerapis]

It sounds like it could be a viable spellcasting solution...

Hopefully I will make it into the alpha or eventually beta and find out if DDO is crunchy fluffy goodness...

Or if I just became one of those people who slows down to stare at the traffic accident.

BTW, thanks for the notification, Calandryll. Much appreciated.

[Xilren's Twin]

Wow.  All I can say is -- disappointing decision.  Don't get me wrong; it might work for the game.  But it won't be D&D.

The problem of limited spellcasting at early levels should be addressed by the dungeon design, not by changing the character system.  To wit.

Thing is, they already recognized the problem with any computerized version of D&D, the game pacing.  They flat out said it; combat it too fast for classic D&D magic systems (i.e. with the comp handling all the number crunching, combat takes seconds to resolve instead of minutes of intricate decisions and tactics).  This is the exact same problem NWN has with their magic system and game pace; the damn thing plays way too fast for magic users to truly shine in combat.   

If there goal was to make just another combat heavy, fantasy based mmorpg with the D&D name stuck on it, this is sadly the right way to go.  If the goal was to try and recapture the feel of pen and paper D&D, they had already blown that when they decided to make it combat centered and fast paced anyway...

Signed up, so we shall see.

Xilren

[Margalis]

Wow.  All I can say is -- disappointing decision.  Don't get me wrong; it might work for the game.  But it won't be D&D.

That's why you aren't a game designer.

What works for PnP won't work on the computer, especially not in a MMORPG. (It may work in a slow paced tactical game like the old AD&D PC games)

In a PnP session you can say "we rest for 5 hours." In a MMORPG you actually have to do the resting, and you aren't eating pizza and clowning around during that time. A system where Wizards had to re-memorize spells every 4 or 5 fights would be utterly retarded.

The time in D&D has always been completely off with regards to turn lengths, battle lengths, etc. That would show up in a MMORPG. In one of the old D&D PC games an encounter might take 20 minutes to work out, in a MMORPG it will take 1-2 minutes. Nobody wants to rememorize spells every 10 minutes.

In a PnP game, 5 encounters might take of the entire playing time. In a MMORPG that's 15 minutes.

[Samwise]

To be fair, the D&D spellcasting system was used pretty much as-is in NWN, and it worked pretty well there.  It doesn't seem like it would be that much of a stretch to do the same thing in a MMORPG.

Tangential question: has anyone done a MMORPG with turn-based combat?  (Other than Puzzle Pirates.)

[stray]

Tangential question: has anyone done a MMORPG with turn-based combat?  (Other than Puzzle Pirates.)

MxO.....Sort of.

[SirBruce]

Wow.  All I can say is -- disappointing decision.  Don't get me wrong; it might work for the game.  But it won't be D&D.

That's why you aren't a game designer.

Hmm, I think you're confused.  I *am* a game designer, and you're the one who isn't.  However, this means little; there are lots of ideas by both designers and non-designers, and certainly no universal agreement.

What works for PnP won't work on the computer, especially not in a MMORPG. (It may work in a slow paced tactical game like the old AD&D PC games)

That's true, but somewhat irrelevant here.  There have been plenty of AD&D PC games made (Gold Box, NWN, RoMD, TToE, etc.), both slow and fast-paced.  Fast-paced really doesn't require any alteration to the spell system unless by fast-paced you mean, say, casting magic missile or fireball 10-20 times in a combat.  If that's your idea of fast paced, then you're not really making a D&D game... which I already pointed out.  It may be fine for WoW, or UO, but...

In a PnP session you can say "we rest for 5 hours." In a MMORPG you actually have to do the resting, and you aren't eating pizza and clowning around during that time. A system where Wizards had to re-memorize spells every 4 or 5 fights would be utterly retarded.

This is why I'm a game designer, and you're not.  In a MMORPG, we can use what is called "dramatic compression" and the 5 hours doesn't really take five hours.  DDO already does this, most notably in the travel system.  It's far less of a big deal to change the rest time than it is to change the game mechanics.

The time in D&D has always been completely off with regards to turn lengths, battle lengths, etc. That would show up in a MMORPG. In one of the old D&D PC games an encounter might take 20 minutes to work out, in a MMORPG it will take 1-2 minutes. Nobody wants to rememorize spells every 10 minutes.

This is largely irrelevant.  Appropriate times of things were already covered in my previous post.

In a PnP game, 5 encounters might take of the entire playing time. In a MMORPG that's 15 minutes.

Again, largely irrelevant to the topic at hand.  We're talking specifically about rest times as it relates to numbers of encounters, not length of play session.

Bruce

[MrHat]

Signed up.  I put 5 on my familiarity ratings, but what I meant was 0.

I don't know anything about D&D, but DDO looks interesting.

[tar]

Signed up too. Of DDO and MEO, DDO has always seemed the more interesting due to not being hampered by the setting.

[AOFanboi]

To be fair, the D&D spellcasting system was used pretty much as-is in NWN, and it worked pretty well there.

Cannot be directly compared: In NWN you can rest at any time for eight speeded-up "hours" to restore spells and regain HP. While you do this, nothing at all happens elsewhere in the game: You're the centerpoint, the rest is triggered events.

This "rest when convenient" mechanism would not work in a MMORPG where there are a lot of players who are active during those eight hours.

[Murgos]

4 or 5 fights in a PnP session is a WHOLE session.  So it should be no surprise that the game over time settled into the point where your average caster had enough magic for 4 or 5 fights.  4 or 5 fights doesn't even get you started in most MMOG's so it's pretty obvious something had to give.

I'd like to think that I wouldn't mind a slower paced more tactical/strategic game but who am I kidding, I rearely get more than 2 hours together to actually play a game anymore and it would have to be one hell of a rewarding combat system if I felt like I accomplished something worth while in 1 or 2 fights during my play time.  Last night I logged into WoW for the first time in a week and I finished 4 quests and got a whole levels worth of exp in just a touch more than 2 hours.  DDO is going have to compete with that for the big bucks and I am sure they are aware of it.

[Trippy]

To be fair, the D&D spellcasting system was used pretty much as-is in NWN, and it worked pretty well there.

Cannot be directly compared: In NWN you can rest at any time for eight speeded-up "hours" to restore spells and regain HP. While you do this, nothing at all happens elsewhere in the game: You're the centerpoint, the rest is triggered events.

Things are happening around you when you are playing multiplayer. In that situation rest basically acts like an EQ-style meditate (without the spellbook staring).

[kaid]

Hell just look at Never winter nights to find out the issues for casters. MMRPG tend to be ALOT more combat oriented than most P&P games. Hell in a campaign that lasted my group about 2 years we got into two maybe three fights in any given session.  The reason for this was if we tried much more the casters would be useless.

Now I have seen some modified D&D varient spell systems work pretty good in DIKU muds so there are ways of doing it that give you the planning and strategy of the pen and paper games with enough spells to actually be useful with.

We shall see how their spell point system plays out frankly it is probably for the best as default numbers of spells in a faster paced combat of mmrpg just wont work.


kaid

[Furiously]

Look forward to seeing how it works. Thanks Cal.

[HaemishM]

I'm very interested in seeing the combat/magic system. If the magic system is anything remotely close to DnD there's going to be a lot of pissed off kids who want instant gratification.

"WTF Y DONT I HAV MP? WHRE MY SPELS GO?"

Our senior game designer actually wrote a dev. diary about the spell system back in early March.

http://www.ddo.com/index.php?page_id=84

I don't think it was a bad decision. It was merely a realization and a admission that CRPG != PNP RPG. They are just paced differently, handle differently, and have to work off of different rules. The problem with most spellcasters in MMOG's is that people play a spellcaster because they usually have much more interesting things to do in combat than melee characters, and are more powerful. Taking away the ability of a spellcaster to cast something every fight in an MMOG would make them totally worthless. I can see the change as being that the instanced dungeons of DDO are going to be much more time-compressed than a PNP adventure would be. You probably won't have the random encounter issues of the travel to the dungeon, so you can do away with that time. Since the focus will be on the dungeon part of it, you can say "This takes a lot of days, so you get a lot of spells" and it makes sense.

[Calandryll]

I'm very interested in seeing the combat/magic system. If the magic system is anything remotely close to DnD there's going to be a lot of pissed off kids who want instant gratification.

"WTF Y DONT I HAV MP? WHRE MY SPELS GO?"

Our senior game designer actually wrote a dev. diary about the spell system back in early March.

http://www.ddo.com/index.php?page_id=84

I don't think it was a bad decision. It was merely a realization and a admission that CRPG != PNP RPG. They are just paced differently, handle differently, and have to work off of different rules. The problem with most spellcasters in MMOG's is that people play a spellcaster because they usually have much more interesting things to do in combat than melee characters, and are more powerful. Taking away the ability of a spellcaster to cast something every fight in an MMOG would make them totally worthless. I can see the change as being that the instanced dungeons of DDO are going to be much more time-compressed than a PNP adventure would be. You probably won't have the random encounter issues of the travel to the dungeon, so you can do away with that time. Since the focus will be on the dungeon part of it, you can say "This takes a lot of days, so you get a lot of spells" and it makes sense.

Right.

Also keep in mind that we didn't make this system up out of thin air. It's taken from a D&D rulebook. I think it's very good example of finding a way to make something work within the license, rather than having the license straightjacket us into making a bad decision for the game.

[Signe]

It looks like I already signed up for this, although I have no memory of it.  I was surprised!

[kaid]

The D&D liscense at least contains so many rule books that there are a lot of "official by the book" ways to handle a number of different systems some of which may work better for the pacing of a MMRPG than the default rules. Also with all the material out there it is pretty ripe for expanding into all sorts of different directions as needed/wanted.


kaid

[Furiously]

Was glad to see the first message I saw on the boards was from 
Raistlin_Majere
Community Member
        
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Nashville Tn, USA
New Population since Beta announcement
Beta Announcement made: 12 Noon CST
Current Time: 2pm CST
Registered Member: 11,645


Be interesting to see how fast it climbs. I was only 10k last week.

For some reason it didn't stop me from registering.

[Hoax]

Bruce your an idiot if you think your avg player is going to put up with his wizard or mage running out of spells with any regularity.  We all know how much everyone in EQ loved playing Wizards with the whole nuke 3 mobs go afk for 20min fucking medition in early levels when you weren't gaurenteed to have crack at all times.

As long as your not really doing anything different (EQ clone) you have to compete with WoW, if you want to stand a chance the game better look great, have good atmosphere and move quickly.  Fast paced combat will make bad combat systems seem more skill-based and interesting for your avg gamer who doesn't look too deep beneath the surface and see he's still only using 4 skills just he has to hit the buttons faster.