Mmmm... Porn...

[schild]

Interesting thing is that the only biological loser in the polygyny equation is the man who's paying the bills... and the man who's paying the bills is the one with the most power in his society, and therefore potentially the most influential when laws and codes of conduct are being established for that society (e.g. the one most able to bribe congressmen or the ancient equivalent thereof).  Hmm...

Just like the game publisher!

[voodoolily]

It's my mission in life (so to speak) to "try correcting" the mistakes perpetrated by the Fred Phelps and Jerry Falwells of the world. It has nothing to do with lashing out at you. You're comments are simply the result of their bullshit.

The only people I'm offended by in this matter are Christians.

Well, at least we see eye to eye on something. I had the realization that I was no longer a Christian when I was about 13 or 14. I had the realization that Christianity had been ruined for me by my father just a few years ago. And I do believe that Christians like yourself and Paelos are exceedingly uncommon. I used to consider myself a Christ Philosophist (I made this up when I used to be a hippie). That is, that one should follow the only thing that Christ really said in the way of a "sermon": love thy neighbor as thyself and love god above all things. The notion of god, or the meaning of it/him/her, can be rather loosely defined. But the Golden Rule is still the only tenet I try to live by.

The fact that most people who call themselves Christians either aren't aware of Christ's philosophy or choose to ignore it (hate is WAY easier than love) is appalling. Furthermore, the vast majority of Christians I know (and not just wackos) do not live anything that resembles a Christian lifestyle. The Flanders on the Simpsons is how I visualize the ideal Christian family. Am I right? The new fire-and-brimstone movement out of Colorado is terrifying. Since when are judgement, hate and violence Christian values?

My beef with most Christians is that they're not behaving like Christians. Which is what, I believe, puts you and me on the same page.

[voodoolily]

Interesting thing is that the only biological loser in the polygyny equation is the man who's paying the bills... and the man who's paying the bills is the one with the most power in his society, and therefore potentially the most influential when laws and codes of conduct are being established for that society (e.g. the one most able to bribe congressmen or the ancient equivalent thereof).  Hmm...

The trick is obviously to have the cuckold unawares, lest the female lose her offspring's meal ticket. Males have an even bigger advantage to polygamy, in that they can have many, many baby momma and have all these different women raising his progeny. The baby momma, unfortunately, has the least amount of power in society. I'd say single moms end up the bigger losers.

[stray]

It's my mission in life (so to speak) to "try correcting" the mistakes perpetrated by the Fred Phelps and Jerry Falwells of the world. It has nothing to do with lashing out at you. You're comments are simply the result of their bullshit.

The only people I'm offended by in this matter are Christians.

Well, at least we see eye to eye on something.

I was going say something kinky at this moment, but I'll just leave it at that. 

[HaemishM]

Before organized (e.g., Judeo-Christian and Middle-Eastern) religions, sex wasn't a taboo subject. Now it's dirty and wrong and WAY better.

Actually, sex wasn't really a taboo in Judeo-Christian beliefs until Puritans in America and Victorian England. At which point, culture apparently turned inward on itself and tried to convince people that being human was bad. We in America are still suffering for the kinds of bullshit repressions that both of these culture movements inflicted on us.

Now fornication? That was always bad. But many religions, which were organized long before the Christian churches, even had temple prostitutes.

[voodoolily]

Victorians were never as prim as they want you to believe, either. It's funny, but when a little ankle is hot and tawdry, the sky's the limit, really.

[HaemishM]

Yeah, Victorians really were about the dirtieist birds you can find, it's just that they covered it all up with lots of social bullshit. For good examples, watch Wilde, about Oscar Wilde. Fantastic movie, especially if you are an Oscar Wilde fan.

I just find it amazing that most of the real stupid bullshit that the Bible Belt Holy Rollers who spend most of their lives tormenting someone who actually thinks about religion as opposed to blindly following what their pastor said really don't have any idea where their wrongheaded philosophy comes from.

[stray]

Yeah, Victorians really were about the dirtieist birds you can find, it's just that they covered it all up with lots of social bullshit. For good examples, watch Wilde, about Oscar Wilde. Fantastic movie, especially if you are an Oscar Wilde fan.

Johnny Depp just finished the Libertine (which should be out soon) about John Wilmot, depraved 17 c. Earl of Rochester. Should be quite entertaining as well.

[Pococurante]

I wasn't questioning the origin of sexual taboos, I was simply stating that they existed. I implore the Christians to cite a verse in the Bible that says it's okay to have premarital sex that isn't sinful.

I hate to open this can of worms, especially if JPII's ghost is gonna clock me upside the head, but a careful reading of how Joseph comes to wed Mary is the ultimate example you are looking for to take on dear old Dad.  The only real claim that Mary was divinely impregnated comes from Luke and that's because he was working with a third-off translation that confuses "virgin" with a woman who simply has never given birth.  The original versions use a Hebrew word that was just as accurately used to describe prostitutes as it was young women who had yet to hit the hay with that special someone.

So there you have it - the leading spiritual figure in the Western world really is a bastard and the First Christians had zero issue with it.  This offends a lot of people now, but it is complete nonsense that these old Jews were sexual prudes.  This was a pastoral culture.  Farmers and ranchers have no problem with the strange paradox that an eager young bride can do in six months what takes a cow nine months.

Reality is ever so much more interesting than dogma...  :mrgreen:

[stray]

So there you have it - the leading spiritual figure in the Western world really is a bastard and the First Christians had zero issue with it.  This offends a lot of people now, but it is complete nonsense that these old Jews were sexual prudes.  This was a pastoral culture.  Farmers and ranchers have no problem with the strange paradox that an eager young bride can do in six months what takes a cow nine months.

Good try, but revising the Hebrew word "alma" for it to not mean "virgin" is a post-Christian invention. It was ALWAYS meant to be "virgin" or "maiden" until Jesus came along. Take a look at pre-1st century rabbinic commentaries and apocryphal books and they intrepret Isaiah 7 the same way as Christians did.

[Pococurante]

Partly correct but fatally so... enjoy:

http://www.outreachjudaism.org/matthew.html

Hence why the NRSV refers to her as "young woman".

[MaceVanHoffen]

Yeah, Victorians really were about the dirtieist birds you can find, it's just that they covered it all up with lots of social bullshit. For good examples, watch Wilde, about Oscar Wilde. Fantastic movie, especially if you are an Oscar Wilde fan.

And they had an interesting caste system with regard to sex.  If you were a gentleperson, titled, and what not, you could not [publicly] engage in extramarital sex without losing your social standing, which back then was viewed as akin to death.  Banks could foreclose on your business ventures and you could even lose title and property if caught doing the deed without a marriage vow attached.  But those lower classes could be as filthy and wanton as they wanted.  It's amazing that such a double standard was tolerated for so long.  Jane Austen's books do a good job depicting it, though most of her life predated the Victorian era.