The Pope has been given last rites

[Paelos]

Story here

It's a matter of time now 

[WayAbvPar]

I am utterly amazed he has lasted this long. By all rights he should have died somewhere in the late 90s.

Hopefully the Church will ratify (is that the right word?) a more liberal, progressive Pope in 15-16 days. The world would be a better place without the Catholic Church still being in the Dark Ages.

[Shockeye]

Hopefully the Church will ratify (is that the right word?) a more liberal, progressive Pope in 15-16 days. The world would be a better place without the Catholic Church still being in the Dark Ages.

Dude, the Pope hasn't been running things for a long time. The Carndinals are not going to be elevating anyone "progressive" or "liberal" to anything.

[voodoolily]

Again, would Yuna just send that guy already?

[Shockeye]

Again, would Yuna just send that guy already?

Did you say Yuna?

I hope when it's my time Chocolate Yuna comes for me.

[tazelbain]

I thought this is the liberal Pope

[SuperPopTart]

Well god bless him for the work he has done, and historically, he -is- the most progressive of our time.

[Samwise]

He's definitely more liberal than some.  I think it was him that helped push more dioceses to allow female altar servers (I remember it being a big deal when I was in grade school).  Still a pretty far cry from allowing female ordination, but it was about the biggest step he could possibly have taken toward it in his lifetime.

[El Gallo]

Hard to say that he was liberal compared to John XIII or Pius XII or Leo XIII (though the last is probably not from our time).  There's also JPI, who tends to be seen as all things to all people because his papacy was so short, but thought of as liberal by lots of folks.

Popes are hard to pin down as "liberal" or "conservative" by US standards because the Church's official position on most economic issues is way, way, way to the left of the most left-leaning class warfare guy you could imagine getting elected to the San Francisco City Council while its stance on most biology-related issues is way, way, way to the right of the most right-leaning culture of life guy you could imagine getting elected to the Montgomery Alabama city council.  Add to that their stances on the death penalty, just war theory, consumerism, international trade, etc. and the Church defies characterization in US political terms.

I'd say he was pretty conservative overall.  On the biology front, he did not change much, but did come down against dying people refusing food and water, which was a contested position in the Church for at least a few hundred years, with a lot of people saying it was OK when there was no hope of recovery.  On the economic front, he really stifled Oscar Romero and his liberation theology bretheren.  I'd say conservative overall.  He certainly knew his politics, creating a bunch of new cardinalships and populating them with people who agreed with him, so I would not expect the next Pope to be much different.  Certainly a great man if for no other reason than the enormous role he played in the cold war.

I was educated by lefty Jesuits, so take my views with a grain or two :)

Edit: on the issue of the ordination of women, JP2 stated that the church had no power to ordain women.  IIRC, is was debatable whether this should be taken as an infallible statement of doctrine, but I am pretty sure that JP2's henchman [cue the Imperial March now] Grand Inquisitor Cardinal Ratzinger [/cut music] later said that it was.  Text here http://www.cin.org/users/james/files/w-ordination.htm

[voodoolily]

Again, would Yuna just send that guy already?

Did you say Yuna?

I hope when it's my time Chocolate Yuna comes for me.

It's always wikipedia with you people, isn't it?

[Shockeye]

It's always wikipedia with you people, isn't it?

Ignore the words. They get in the way of the visual... goodness...

[voodoolily]

Aughh! My eyes! They are bleeding!

God, you guys. I am so sorry that this really is the pool of gaming chicks from which you must skim. A pool that desperately needs some chlorine. No wonder none of you date gamers.

It's really funny - I always thought that Rikku was way easier to fetishize than little miss innocent Yuna (oh, I get it...). But please don't find pictures of girthsome ladies in daisy dukes and goggles. For the love of god, please don't.

[stray]

For the love of god, please don't.

Did Chocolate Yuna change your viewpoints on religion that easily? 

[Ironwood]

Hang on, wasn't this the same guy that went on a tour of Aids ridden, starving and populated Africa and said 'You don't need contraception, what you need is more breeding and babies' ?

Someone please switch him off, or at least tell Jim Henson's Workshop to stop operating him from underneath.

[stray]

Hang on, wasn't this the same guy that went on a tour of Aids ridden, starving and populated Africa and said 'You don't need contraception, what you need is more breeding and babies' ?

Someone please switch him off, or at least tell Jim Henson's Workshop to stop operating him from underneath.

Get a grip.

[SirBruce]

The latest news is that the Pope's urinary tract infection, despite being treated with antibiotics, has spread through his body, causing septic shock.  In addition, he had some sort of heart failure, but the exact nature of that failure is unspecified (I suspect his heart didn't stop completely).  Today he appointed 17 new bishops and arch-bishops, which is heavily indicative of the sort of "house-cleaning" a dying Pope would try to take care of.  It seems clear now that he's very sick and few expect him to recover.

Bruce

[HaemishM]

I'm going to say this one time, and one fucking time only.

BE FUCKING RESPECTFUL.

I am not Catholic, but my wife is. So as a result, I have some sympathy towards a Catholic's reverence for the Pope. Also, I RESPECT HIM. As someone who does not respect organized religion, that's saying an awful lot. I respect him if for nothing else than his statement about tolerance for other religions and cultures. There are preachers I've known with a lot less riding on their words that wouldn't go so far as to say things like that.

Respect the man in this thread, or any memorial thread when he finally passes away. We have other threads where you can unload your invective on the Catholic Church.

I have one standing rule for memorial threads these days. Try to be respectful, unless the dead was such a complete cockmunching assfucker that you can't say anything nice about him (Yassar Arafat, for instance).

[Paelos]

Good call. I like the Pope as well, and I grew up Southern Baptist. That probably has something to do with it.

[schild]

I like the pope if only because the Vatican is awesome. So whoever the pope is, he gets my respect. Oh, and I was in an audience at the Vatican. That was awesome. he went around in his little pope mobile. He was like a Popemon.

Does anyone know who the next pope is? I mean, that's my big question.

[Lum]

Speculation is between Cdl Ratzinger (conservative, old thus short papacy) and Cdl Arinze (third world thus dramatic, some think the Vatican will avoid drama).

[SirBruce]

There are three leading candidates that are quite popular.  One would be the first American Pope, which many believe would help maintain the Church's high profile.  But recent scandals regarding child molestation may have nixed any chances of that happening.  The second choice would be the first African (black) Pope, which would emphasize and represent the growing majority of Catholics in third world countries and in Africa especially.  However, this choice is very controversial, and there is a contingent who believes the last Pope was "liberal" enough; to embrace a black Pope would seem to continue to push a liberalizing agenda in the Church which many think has gone far enough.  The third choice, and what I believe is the most likely one, is an Italian Pope.  This would be a conservative, consensus choice, and help bring the Church back to its roots, reminding everyone that the center of the Church is still in Rome, not in Africa or North America.

Bruce

[Johny Cee]

I like the pope if only because the Vatican is awesome. So whoever the pope is, he gets my respect. Oh, and I was in an audience at the Vatican. That was awesome. he went around in his little pope mobile. He was like a Popemon.

Does anyone know who the next pope is? I mean, that's my big question.

Leading contenders?  No idea beyond googling a headline.

Most likely, it's going to be an Italian,  since I believe they have a controlling minority of Cardinals.  Popes tend to be Italian, anyway.

Latin America and Africa are the real growth areas now though,  and I believe there has been a fair amount of rumor supporting an African Pope.  (Would be the first in quite a few centuries).

The present Pope was also pretty big on China.  Been alot of growth there,  since the government has relented a bit on the repression thing.  There are a few "secret" Cardinals there right now.  (Secret,  because their names aren't released.  They tend to die/end up occupying a cell too often if the Vatican releases their names).

A North American Pope is probably out of the running for the conceivable future.

EDIT:  Bah, tried to post this and SirBruce and Lum beat me to the punch.

[voodoolily]

For the love of god, please don't.

Did Chocolate Yuna change your viewpoints on religion that easily? 

It's for his love of god. But I am starting to believe there is a hell...

I have a hard time understanding why an American pope would be appointed, since Americans have brought all of the decades of pedophilia and rape inflicted by priests to light. Wouldn't they rather have someone from a nice, submissive country? Or at least a country that isn't so litigious?

[Lum]

Actually, it's not so much the pedophilia scandal as the fact that America saw fit to publicize a pedophilia scandal. An important distinction. Most of the higher-ups in the Catholic hiearchy view American culture as inherently sinful and the pedophilia scandal was the result of a "sex-obsessed media". Also, the Vatican sees itself as a counterweight moral voice to American global dominance. Thus the chance of an American cardinal being named Pope is nil.

Honestly, though, no one knows who'll come out of the conclave until it happens. No one thought Karol Wojtyla would be a pope, either.

[WayAbvPar]

And here I thought the pedophilia scandal was brought on by priests fucking kids. Shows what I know. Damned sex obsessed media!

[voodoolily]

And here I thought the pedophilia scandal was brought on by priests fucking kids. Shows what I know. Damned sex obsessed media!

Thank you!  :-D
I didn't really want to take any more hits for not sympathizing with the Vatican on this one.

[blackotter]

Does anyone know who the next pope is? I mean, that's my big question.

Somebody call Mark Burnett...this question is just asking to be our next Reality Show smash hit!

[SirBruce]

He's dead.

Bruce

[Mesozoic]

And here I thought the pedophilia scandal was brought on by priests fucking kids. Shows what I know. Damned sex obsessed media!

Yes, that was the cause.  But I think that their point is that the constant media attention to it betrayed the population's tendency towards sexual sensationalism.  I disagree myself, I think its about a nation of religious  independents feeling superior to organized religion. 

[Mesozoic]

And CNN now says:

DEVELOPING STORY The Vatican denies reports in Italian media that Pope John Paul II has died. 

[voodoolily]

Do they have April Fool's Day in Italy?

[El Gallo]

Vatican is denying that, Bruce.

If anyone wants to get in to the HOV lane to Hell, there are sites laying odds and taking bets on who will be the next Pope:

http://www.readabet.com/index.php/other/article/7237
http://www.oddschecker.com/betting/mode/o/card/specials-politics/odds/124960x/sid/240720

[Big Gulp]

As a lapsed (okay, not really so much "lapsed" as never really hardcore to begin with) Catholic this is really affecting me more than I thought it would.  This guy became pope when I was 4 years old, so really he's all I've ever known as far as popes go.  And as much as I have problems with the church, I really can't bear any ill will towards JPII.  Watching the news I'm fairly bummed out right now.

I felt much the same when Reagan finally died.  He was what I thought a president was meant to be when I was growing up, and for better or worse he's who I've measured subsequent presidents against ever since.

[Hoax]

There is nothing I can say that wouldn't violate Haem's rules...  So where's the tube lady thread?  :-D

[kaid]

It will be sad to see him go but he is quite elderly now and he has lived a long full life and stuck to his beliefs. Thats about all any of us can ask for when it comes our time to pass on to whatever lays beyond.

Kaid