Hitchhiker's Guide Trailer

[Ironwood]

I'm convinced Lynch can't tell anything resembling a story. It's all oohs and aahs, and various WTF moments.

Twin Peaks was pretty much completely straightfoward and brilliant.

?

[MaceVanHoffen]

And Lynch's film is BRILLIANT.  You have to watch it many, many times (preferrably while drunk) to fully realize the greatness.

Dune is a brilliant series of books and a concept, but Lynch's film was just ... bad.  That film is a great example of why you must change key elements of a book when adapting it to film.  Lynch spent way too much time with those whispering thoughts instead of in dialogue, and too much drug-inspired imagery that was confusing even if you were very familiar with the story.  All of the actor's performances were great, however.  Just the script itself was horrid.  I think Lynch's Dune is tied with 2001 for the title of Worst Sci Fi Adaptation by an Overrated Director.

The Sci Fi channel's version was much better.  There, I said it.  Better casting, better adaptation.  Some of the acting was a bit cheesy, but that was the only thing I saw to fault it.

[Abagadro]

2001 for the title of Worst Sci Fi Adaptation by an Overrated Director.

You blew all your credibility right there. 2001 is actually a pretty lame novel and the movie is great. Kubrick is overrated?  Please.

[schild]

You blew all your credibility right there. 2001 is actually a pretty lame novel and the movie is great. Kubrick is overrated?  Please.

You're all about people blowing their credibility, aren't you? I love Kubrick. Most people hate him. He is, by far, one of the most proficient love him or hate him type of celebrities. Now, there's no denying his brilliance, I'd understand that, but some of his shit drags and I'm fine with admitting that. That said, 2001? Couldn't Mace have at least pointed to say, Eyes Wide Shut for crap?

[stray]

2001 for the title of Worst Sci Fi Adaptation by an Overrated Director.

Kubrick is overrated?  Please.

Haha. I don't think an "imo" is even necessary in this case. That's just crazy.

[Hoax]

I really enjoyed Dr. Strangelove, but 2001 is just too fucking slow for the internet generation.


Attempt at re-railing:

I liked the trailer I saw, it was funny and the right type of humor also it was great that almost every trailer I saw after it followed the rules (montage of explosions, stupid deep voice guy, ect).

[TripleDES]

The fact that the books have sold over 15 million copies and inspired a radio play, television mini-series, video game and now big-budget motion picture should give some indication.

I thought the radioplay was first, then the books?

[MaceVanHoffen]

Couldn't Mace have at least pointed to say, Eyes Wide Shut for crap?

Nope.  Any movie with a 17-minute drug hallucination that is supposed to "visualize" what's going on in the main character's mind is utter crap.  The movie isn't too slow for me.  I read Jane Austen and Mark Twain, so that isn't my objection.

Eyes Wide Shut? Yeah, crap.  A Clockwork Orange?  Crap, but at least artsy crap with a good political statement.  A Full Metal Jacket, Dr. Strangelove, and Spartacus?  I'll give you those, brilliant movies.  The Shining?  Only Jack Nicholson saved that from being a completely unwatchable pile of cow dung.

Kubrick is one of those directors that has some sort of avant garde following that feeds on itself and thinks the man shits out solid gold with every film.  He has talent, he's just overrated, much like our dear Mr. Lynch.  Kubrick is also dead, and that tends to amp up anyone's perceived talent.

As for credibility, I never had any.  I'm just a well-read software engineering nerd who likes movies and who spends too much time critiquing overrated directors :o

[schild]

A Clockwork Orange?  Crap...etc etc

You take that back, swine.

[Paelos]

A Clockwork Orange?  Crap...etc etc

You take that back, swine.

I don't go as far to say Clockwork Orange is crap, but I certainly have a distaste for the movie. It's slightly ahead of Eyes Wide Shut as my least favorite of Kubrik's films.

[AOFanboi]

Dune is a brilliant series of books and a concept, but Lynch's film was just ... bad.

It's unclear how much of the badness (read: central scenes from the books left out) is the fault of Lynch and which are the fault of the producers, the De Laurentiis family. I've read an essay by Frank Herbert where he lists some scenes filmed by Lynch that were cut, like Paul crying after the Fremen duel (giving water to the dead). Herbert accepted the changes were necessary to take the story to a different medium.

The scene I missed the most was when Dr Kynes has been thrown out by Harkonnen (in the movie they cut away after his stillsuit is ruined), and he discovers the relationship between the sandworms and the spice as he dies in a spice blow. However, that relationship is more important for the later books than for the movie, so *shrug* really.

But Lynch's film was visually near perfect, apart from the sandworm-riding scenes. The cultural differences between the houses was well done for instance.

[HaemishM]

I'm convinced Lynch can't tell anything resembling a story. It's all oohs and aahs, and various WTF moments.

Twin Peaks was pretty much completely straightfoward and brilliant.

Yes. It was inspired brilliance, as was the movie, and his earlier work, especially Wild at Heart. But after the TP movie? Total suckage. I couldn't finish watching The Straight Story, it was that boring. It's the kind of story you read on the web and go "HUH, ain't that something," then get on with your life. It's not something you make a movie about. Lost Highway? Mullholland Drive? STOP SMOKING CRACK, DAVID. At least Mullholland Drive had Naomi Watts in the lesbian buff, and Lost Highway had a killer soundtrack. But fuck, they are awful movies.

His Dune? Not so much. It was a project doomed to failure, because 3 hours is not nearly enough time to tell the story.

EDIT: As for Kubrick, he's most certainly not overrated, but not everything he does was worth doing his way. Barry Lyndon had some great Seven Years War battle scenes, but the story was just LONG, drawn out and not really very interesting. It needed much quicker pacing, which Kubrick refused to do. Eyes Wide Shut? Total fucking boring crap. His name shouldn't even have been on it. It was much ado about nothing, yes, in all lower case, because it really was useless.

But Clockwork Orange? Brilliant. Dr. Strangelove and 2001? Brilliant. Full Metal Jacket? Super brilliant. The only difference between those 4 movies is that Clockwork and 2001 are not nearly as approachable as Strangelove and FMJ. They take a lot more patience from the viewer.

The Shining? That movie was creepier and better than the book ever was.

[MaceVanHoffen]

But Clockwork Orange? Brilliant. Dr. Strangelove and 2001? Brilliant. Full Metal Jacket? Super brilliant. The only difference between those 4 movies is that Clockwork and 2001 are not nearly as approachable as Strangelove and FMJ. They take a lot more patience from the viewer.

If by "not nearly as approachable", you mean "sucked in ways that mankind has yet to discover it is possible to suck", then yes I agree.  God, I will never understand why people think 2001 was such a good flick.  Clockwork at least had an interesting take on a dystopian society.  2001 wasn't even interesting.

What's really odd is that some of Kubrick's films are in my favorites list.  Spartacus is simply divine.  It's like, a perfect movie.  As are Strangelove and FMJ.  Just beautiful pieces of cinema that prove Kubrick does have talent.  But no more talent than any other hot-and-cold director, like Lynch or even Lucas.  When I say he's overrated, that's what I mean:  when you factor out his hype, he doesn't stand out in a crowd of his peers.  I'll even pick a fight and say that Coppola is far and away the better director.

The Shining? That movie was creepier and better than the book ever was.

I have to give you that.  It was creepier and better, because the book was so horrible there wasn't anyplace else to go but up.  Stephen King is/was capable of so much better.  Nicholson and Duvall turned in stellar performances in the film, which was just goldplating the festering dungheap of the script.

[HaemishM]

King was drunk most of the time he wrote The Shining. I still liked it.

Coppola is a goddamn hack, and a much better winemaker than a filmmaker. I have grown to fucking hate the Godfather movies not because they are terrible movies, but because they are mediocre movies everyone fellates to death. Nothing in those movies other than Brando's performance in the first stands out to me at all.

Both 2001 and Clockwork Orange are very distance-inducing films. They put the audience either in an uncomfortable position or they are hard to decipher. Clockwork Orange puts the audience in the uncomfortable position of having to watch this complete bastard as the main character do completely horrible things. The rape scene in particular stands out. You don't want to see this shit, and yet the director puts it out there in as stark and naturalistic a way as possible. It makes the ultraviolence of this world so startling because it is so matter-of-factly filmed. He attempted to do the same thing with the orgy scenes in Eyes Wide Shut, except that the scenes were instead drained of all eroticism, and thus all emotion. Maybe that's what he was trying to do. 2001 was off-putting in that it really required patience and attention on the part of the audience to dechiper. It told you almost nothing in dialogue, and everything in visual symbols. It was also dangerously slow, but that is a hallmark of all of his work.

Whereas, Strangelove was less distancing because the characters were somewhat more understandable, as well as having some humorous lines. "Buncha pre-verts" is still one of my favorite lines. Peter Sellers amazing performances didn't hurt either. FMJ got you involved from the very get-go with the fantastic performance of the Sergeant, whose dialogue you can't help but laugh at. Both those movies had outstanding performances that made them much more approachable than the Clockwork or 2001.

[MaceVanHoffen]

Both Clockwork and 2001 are distance-inducing films, but I like those kind of films.  That isn't my objection, though it may be others'.  I simply thought the storytelling was bad, and I didn't like Kubrick's use of the camera in either flick at all.  They didn't flow well, and the imagery in 2001 was all wrong when compared with the books.

In short, I didn't like those films for the same reason I didn't like The Fifth Element, Dungeons & Dragons, or any other crappy sci fi/fantasy:  I just thought they were bad films.  With the caveat, however, that I liked the subject matter in Clockwork immensely, and was disappointed that a better director hadn't got a hold of that project.

And I baited you with Coppola.  You may fishslap me for that.  So I will let that drop :)

[Shockeye]

Let's not even get into the shitfest that is The Fifth Element.

[Abagadro]

Random Kubrick thoughts:

The dude wrote and directred Paths of Glory at age 29.  He was no hack.

Even if you can find fault with a couple of his movies, hit batting average was pretty dang high.

Remember that 2001 was made in 1968. It was far ahead of its time technically and has been a part of our collective conceince on a number of levels. 

And I have no idea why you mythologize 2001 the novel which is marginal at best.

[HaemishM]

Let's not even get into the shitfest that is The Fifth Element.

Do not diss the genuis that is The Fifth Element. I love that fucking flick, warts and all.

[Shockeye]

Let's not even get into the shitfest that is The Fifth Element.

Do not diss the genuis that is The Fifth Element. I love that fucking flick, warts and all.

What the fuck is wrong with you?

[Rasix]

Leeloo Dallas, moooltipass.

Love that movie.  Don't know why.  Just love it though.

[Bunk]

I'm glad Haemish stepped up, so I don't have to try defending 5th Element myself. I will give a couple reasons I like it though:

Gorgeous to look at. Loved the vibrant color schemes and sets.
Gary Oldman  - far from his best role (which was Romeo is Bleeding), but its still Oldman
Milla's bod in skimpy clothing (probably why I liked Resident Evil as well)
Brion James - he actually gets lines! Probably more than in Bladerunner and Cabinboy combined!

There, that stuff above should give people plenty of stuff to use to derail this thread even further.

[Hoax]

Put me in the enjoyed 5th Element catagory as well.

That and the Tom Cruise movie about the time cops are the only things resembling sci fi my gf will even sort of tolerate.  But frankly I watch movies just because I've got 2hours to kill and I want to be entertained.  I really couldn't give much of a fuck beyond that, when I want to learn about a facet of the human condition I'll read a book thanks.

[Shockeye]

I can't continue to be around you people. I have no respect for any of you.

[stray]

I can't continue to be around you people. I have no respect for any of you.

What he said...

[HaemishM]

5th Element had big guns, spolsions, Milla in almost all her beauty, Chris Tucker before I ever knew who he was, Gary Oldman with a bad toupee, Tiny as President, Ian Holm as a monk, and was a living, breathing Moebius drawing. How could you not love it, in all its cheesy, Heavy Metal glory?

I didn't try to go too deep with that one. I just enjoyed it for the grimy, greasy, visceral thrill ride it was.

[MaceVanHoffen]

I can't continue to be around you people. I have no respect for any of you.

What he said...

Ditto.  And I had such respect for Haemish after his Cat Woman review, despite his odd love for certain Kubrick flicks.

But seriously, the reason I hated The Fifth Elephant is the director's very French style.  That cultural sensibility played very well in other films like Amelie and even La Femme Nikita, but not well in a film that purportedly dealt with the human view of gods and demons.  There were so many silly, quirky moments that just broke the fiction for me.  Also, Chris Tucker made me want to strangle puppies.  His voice was on par with Fran Drescher's.

By the by, do we get some kind of award for Most Derailed Thread?

[Arnold]

Since you said I make Bruce look sane:

Show me where the _rest_of_the_planet_ says Douglas is the shit. Or by planet do you mean nostalgia-stained geeks?

I gotta go with Schild on this one.  I recently re-read the book and it got a big "meh" from me.  I also skipped most of his digressions, because they were more boring and stupid than ST:TNG technobabble.

[Margalis]

And pretending Margaret Weis and Tracy Hickman are bad writers is just lame.

Go back and re-read some of their stuff, then say that.

Edit: Full Metal Jacket is one of the most overrated movies of all time. I am not a big fan of Kubrick but some of his stuff is quite good, and Clockwork Orange is certainly up there.

FMJ has a bunch of quotable lines but the characters are stupidly over the top, to the point of sabotaging any satire or greater meaning, and the second half on the movie is almost totally divorced from the first. By the time you reach the end what should be horrifying is just silly given what transpired in the first half of the movie.

One of my pet peeves are movies and books that try to have their cake and eat it too. (A common example of that is a movie that is supposed to have a strong female lead but also includes needless nudity to please the fellows) At some point having an amusing drill sargeant got in the way of having a good movie. FMJ is amusing but really very low-brow and uninspired. The entire thing can be distilled into a half-dozen one-liners. There's no substance. It's not even shocking, it's just silly.

Edit 2: I read Interview with the Vampire and thought it was really cool, then I read Vampire Lestat and thought it was awful. I think part of it was that I could tell Rice was entering the dreaded never-ending series mode of writing. Tune in next time! Maybe my tastes also changed. It's hard for me to think of another time I've read consecutive books in a series and had almost exact opposite opinions of them.

[Shockeye]

And pretending Margaret Weis and Tracy Hickman are bad writers is just lame.

Go back and re-read some of their stuff, then say that.

"Death Gate Cycle" started out very well but it fell flat in the last two books.

[stray]

I'd rather read Anne Rice. And that isn't sayin' much.

[MaceVanHoffen]

And pretending Margaret Weis and Tracy Hickman are bad writers is just lame.

Go back and re-read some of their stuff, then say that.

I gotta go with schild on this one.  Weis and Hickman are good writers.  Dragonlance was "meh", but then every writer I can think of that I enjoy has also done "meh" books.  However, Dragonlance wasn't a bad series of books, merely simplistic and one-dimensional.  You know, for kids.  I can think of far worse books.

[SirBruce]

The Fifth Elements is perfectly enjoyable if you watch it with the idea in mind that it is essentially live-action anime.

Oh, and Margalis is right -- Weis and Hickman are terrible.  The sf and fantasy circles are very lenient on female authors, and allow them to produce schlock at far lower quality than their male counterparts, and all the while praise them for it.  Anyone who has heard Harlan Elliison's rant on this topic knows how I feel.

Bruce

[Murgos]

Tracy Hickman is a man, man.

[stray]

The Fifth Elements is perfectly enjoyable if you watch it with the idea in mind that it is essentially live-action anime.

Hmm...I'd have to say that's even more of a reason to hate it.

edit: Haemish almost had me with the Milla love...But you just turned me back in the right direction.

Thanks!

[MaceVanHoffen]

Anyone who has heard Harlan Elliison's rant on this topic knows how I feel.

Oh god, you did not ... !

I have read his rant(s), and I think he's full of it.  Harlan Ellison is an arrogant prick and an inferior writer who believes himself to be some sort of Sci Fi Shakespeare.  If the sci fi circles are lenient on anyone, it's this kind of effete snob whose won way too many awards he didn't deserve.  He's involved in more ridiculous copyright litigation than any writer I've ever heard of, as if anyone would bother copying his writing for anything other than a parody.  I could write better stories using my cat's fecal matter and a blowtorch than Ellison could.