Science is the Devil!

[voodoolily]

it's the bones of gay reptiles or something.

ba ba da ding! *does air-drum* get it? bones of gay reptiles? Oh, never mind.

[WayAbvPar]

Buy the DVD

I almost couldn't finish typing this post with my eyes rolling back in my head this far. Owwie!

[voodoolily]

Oh, The Jesus. It's your fault for starting this thread! Do you mind if I call you The Jesus?

[Fargull]

Didn't I hear once that some fundy wackos claim dinosaur bones are a hoax perpetrated by scientists?

They should have more vision and claim it's the bones of gay reptiles or something.

Yepper.  Here is the Linkage

Which of course adds in this nice bit of spice. Which by the way, Pensacola is my high school home town, so unfortunately I have first hand knowledge that the gene/creationist pool is that shallow....

But fortunately this was my weekend distraction from the fundie nuts... The Beach

[HaemishM]

Which of course adds in this nice bit of spice. Which by the way, Pensacola is my high school home town, so unfortunately I have first hand knowledge that the gene/creationist pool is that shallow...

Jay-sus.

Not only does the former public-school science teacher claim the Earth was literally created in six days about 6,000 years ago, he also asserts that the first humans grew as tall as 14 feet and could live until age 900.

Super giants 4tehwinz? WTF?

I mean, I can understand not wanting evolution to be true, despite lots of evidence that is indeed, very scientifically plausible. But isn't this akin to saying the fucking Earth is flat?

[WayAbvPar]

Double post demons! Get me a priest, stat!

[WayAbvPar]

From the link about the theme park-

"Some people," the guide says, "don't believe until they come and see the evidence for themselves."

And then they believe that the purveyors of this nonsense are bugfucking crazy.  I can seriously see the Flanders family whiling away carefree afternoons there.

[SirBruce]

Super giants 4tehwinz? WTF?

I mean, I can understand not wanting evolution to be true, despite lots of evidence that is indeed, very scientifically plausible. But isn't this akin to saying the fucking Earth is flat?

Dude, haven't you ever read the Bible?  It's right there in black and white:

1 When men began to increase in number on the earth and daughters were born to them, 2 the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were beautiful, and they married any of them they chose. 3 Then the LORD said, "My Spirit will not contend with man forever, for he is mortal ; his days will be a hundred and twenty years." 4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those days-and also afterward-when the sons of God went to the daughters of men and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown.

Nephilim is Hebrew for "giant" which you will find in the KJV.  Not to mention, you know, Goliath.

For a further examination of the subject:
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=42637

Bruce

[stray]

Super giants 4tehwinz? WTF?

I mean, I can understand not wanting evolution to be true, despite lots of evidence that is indeed, very scientifically plausible. But isn't this akin to saying the fucking Earth is flat?

Dude, haven't you ever read the Bible?  It's right there in black and white:

1 When men began to increase in number on the earth and daughters were born to them, 2 the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were beautiful, and they married any of them they chose. 3 Then the LORD said, "My Spirit will not contend with man forever, for he is mortal ; his days will be a hundred and twenty years." 4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those days-and also afterward-when the sons of God went to the daughters of men and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown.

Nephilim is Hebrew for "giant" which you will find in the KJV.  Not to mention, you know, Goliath.

For a further examination of the subject:
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=42637

Bruce

I don't think that teacher is talking about the Nephillim though (which have nothing to do with "creationism"). Some creationists believe that with a "fresh" earth (less contaminants, purer oxygen, etc.., etc.), human beings were bigger, stronger, and lived 10x as long as the humans of today.

Although "14 feet" is a new one to me. I've never heard any of them throw out that number before. My guess is that this guy is an all new and improved, doubly retarded form of creationist than the ones we are familiar with. He's mixed up the Nephillims along with the Adam and Eve story....They're completely different things.

Even God is laughing at this one.

[SirBruce]

A little googling dug up this link which includes the following near the bottom:

Perhaps I shouldn't be so hard on Baugh's search for "human giants" in Glen Rose, Texas. He's merely picked up where earlier, less astute, creationists left off. It was those earlier creationists in Texas who imagined that some of the dinosaur trails were made by giant human beings. According to Cecil Dougherty, author of Valley of the Giants (Valley of the Giants Publishers, first edition, 1971), Adam (the first man) was 16 feet tall! King Og (whose bed according to the Bible was 14 ft. by 6 ft.) was 14 feet tall! Noah was 12 feet tall, Goliath was over 9 feet tall, and modern man is 6 feet tall.

Please note that the mere mention in the Bible that "King Og's bed" was "14 ft. long and 6 feet wide," even if the story is true, is not the same as saying that King Og was exactly that tall and that wide! It only says that his bed was. (Maybe he had a lot of wives, like Solomon!?)

As for Noah's height of "12 ft. tall, and Adam's height of "16 ft. tall," I know of no references to either Noah's or Adam's "height" in the Bible.

Perhaps Dougherty, like many Bible believing creationists before him, obtained the idea of "giants in those days" from Genesis 6:4, which reads: "The Nephilim (which many Bibles translate as 'giants' or cite in a footnote at the bottom of the page as 'giants') were on the earth in those days ...

The trouble is that the Bible does not depict Adam as one of the "Nephilim" (or giants). It just depicts Adam as an average-sized human for his day and age. So if Adam and his descendants were "on average" "16 foot tall" as Dougherty believes, then how tall was a "Nephilim/giant" back then? Whew! "Giant " must have been unbelievably tall if the first average-sized human was created 16 feet tall!

Of course, the 'Book of Enoch, verses, 7:1-4 (in a section of the Book of Enoch dated to about 250 B.C.B.) explains that the "giants" mentioned in Genesis 6:4 were 300 cubits (or about 450 feet) tall! So I guess the ancient authors of the Book of Enoch answered my question regarding how tall a giant" must have been back then!

Of course, Bible believers have believed in the existence of "giants" for a long time, since the Bible tells them so.

In 1663 a French Academy paper by, a noted scholar of the Ancient Near East argued that Adam was 140 feet tall, Noah was 50 feet tall, Abraham was 40 feet tall, and Moses was 25 feet tall! (from The Best Worst & Most Unusual by Felton & Fowler, Gallahad Books, 1994)

And, Cotton Mather (1663-1728), an early American clergyman and writer, seems to have been enamoured of the idea. See the article, "Giants in the Earth: Science and the Occult in Cotton Mather's Letters to the Royal Society" by David Levin (William and Mary Quarterly, Vol. 45, Oct. 1988, p. 751-770).

Bruce

[stray]

A little googling dug up this link which includes the following near the bottom:

The trouble is that the Bible does not depict Adam as one of the "Nephilim" (or giants). It just depicts Adam as an average-sized human for his day and age. So if Adam and his descendants were "on average" "16 foot tall" as Dougherty believes, then how tall was a "Nephilim/giant" back then? Whew! "Giant " must have been unbelievably tall if the first average-sized human was created 16 feet tall!

And that would be the main point against it. Plus, there's just all kinds of little verses scattered across Genesis that give you a sense of the scale and size that the humans were back then. They were no different than modern human beings. They ate "grapes", tended to "sheep", hunted with "arrows", rode on "horseback", etc., etc.. Were all these things "giant" too? 

Geez, sometimes I think that the people who spout this kind of crap actually have some other motive. They're so idiotic that I think it may just be an elaborate act. Like it's some scheme to make the subject material look as stupid as possible.

edit: I mean, what's this guy's story anyway? How did he get to that state of mind? How is it even possible to be that stupid?

The only thing I ever lose faith in is humanity. Not God.

[HaemishM]

You know, I've read some of the Bible. I've certainly read Genesis, King James Version. Granted, it was when I was younger, say around 10 or so, and I sure as fuck don't ever remember the word GIANT in them anywhere (or Nephilim either but that's an easy one to forget). I'm pretty sure that had I read that there were OMGZ GIANTZ in the Bible, at 10 years old, loving comics and fantasy stuff, I'd have remembered.

What fucking Bible are you guys reading from?

[stray]

You know, I've read some of the Bible. I've certainly read Genesis, King James Version. Granted, it was when I was younger, say around 10 or so, and I sure as fuck don't ever remember the word GIANT in them anywhere (or Nephilim either but that's an easy one to forget). I'm pretty sure that had I read that there were OMGZ GIANTZ in the Bible, at 10 years old, loving comics and fantasy stuff, I'd have remembered.

What fucking Bible are you guys reading from?

Any one of them. It's tied in with the Noah story (Gen 6:4).

It mentions that a group of angels (Not the one lead by Lucifer. This would be a second, smaller group.) came down to earth, mated with human females, and had offspring that were described as "the mighty men of old, the men of renown". They're referred to as the "Nephilim" (the word itself means "those who have fallen"). The Bible itself only mentions this part of the Noah story once, in one small verse, so it's understandable if people haven't heard of it.

As for the "giant" thing: In some verses scattered throughout the rest of the Bible, and in non-biblical literature from the region and times, they're described as "giants".

Some scholars believe "giant" is a misnomer though, and that the words used in the all of these texts can also be translated as "mighty" (which makes sense, since the Genesis verse describes them only in that way). Either way, these Nephilim aren't "normal" human beings either. They're supposed to be some kind of angel/human crossbreed race. In various texts they're always described as legendary warriors as well. Giant or not, apparently, they kicked an extreme amount of ass.

Anyways, there's more in the Book of Enoch (which is an apocryphal book and not in the Bible). The story begins with 200 angels, led by the angel Semjaza, who were originally sent to earth by God to "instruct men in rightousness". When they got here however, they fell in lust with women. After that, they...umm...decided to "extend" their stay.

They had offspring, the Nephilim, who along with them, dominated the earth. The angels were worshipped as gods by the human race, and their offspring were appointed as rulers and kings. The book also briefly describes what they were teaching and revealing to mankind (everything from magic, "secret" sciences, weaponry, and the like). The book ends with them being taken into captivity to await their final judgement at the end of time.

After Semjaza and the rest of the group were banished, the story of Noah picks up from there. The very reason why the God of the Bible was going to destroy the world with a flood was to undo the work of the angels and the Nephilim. Because of them, the human race had been corrupted like never before or since. And because of that, the only option God considered was that he had to destroy the entire human race.

Except for one man: Noah....And of course, we all know how the story goes from there (Yet, later on, there is a interesting thing involving one of his sons, but I won't get into that).

edit: Added a bit more. Hope that helps.

[SirBruce]

From a religious standpoint it makes a lot of sense.  Every culture had legends of heroic and God-like men in their past, if not in their present, and the Jews had to have an explanation for who these people actually were and where they came from

Bruce

[Jeff Kelly]

Try and remember that these people are on the fringe and they are just loud. The rest of us don't care enough about an IMAX movie to stop them.

You may deem them fringe, but they aren't. They have the power to stop fucking movies from being shown, they have the power to stop schoolbooks mentioning evolution from being used in schools. They have the power to lobby the president to spend several hundred millions on sexual abstinence campaigns while cutting down spending on sex education. They show up on every fucking discussion programme if the topics are religion, religious related or if they have an agenda about it. If they are fringe then they have a very excellent PR department.

I don't get the attitude by the way. "Well they just dealt a blow to free speech but I don't care cause its just an IMAX movie". They have just gained slightly more power and have moved even farther mainstream in the public view by achieving this ban. They will use their leverage next time to attack a bigger target.

By "not caring" you just agree with the outcome whatever it might be just like by not voting you agree with the outcome of an election whatever it might be. It puzzles me that everybody here says these people are fringe and basically loonies but that on the other hand they have shaped your countries views and values to a certain extend in the last few years and there seems to be virtually no opposition to it.

Jeff

[Paelos]

Try and remember that these people are on the fringe and they are just loud. The rest of us don't care enough about an IMAX movie to stop them.

You may deem them fringe, but they aren't. They have the power to stop fucking movies from being shown, they have the power to stop schoolbooks mentioning evolution from being used in schools. They have the power to lobby the president to spend several hundred millions on sexual abstinence campaigns while cutting down spending on sex education. They show up on every fucking discussion programme if the topics are religion, religious related or if they have an agenda about it. If they are fringe then they have a very excellent PR department.

I don't get the attitude by the way. "Well they just dealt a blow to free speech but I don't care cause its just an IMAX movie". They have just gained slightly more power and have moved even farther mainstream in the public view by achieving this ban. They will use their leverage next time to attack a bigger target.

By "not caring" you just agree with the outcome whatever it might be just like by not voting you agree with the outcome of an election whatever it might be. It puzzles me that everybody here says these people are fringe and basically loonies but that on the other hand they have shaped your countries views and values to a certain extend in the last few years and there seems to be virtually no opposition to it.

Jeff

That was a nice little speech, muffled only by the sound of your head up your ass. First, they ARE the fringe, but the squeaky wheels get the grease. They bitch and bitch and bitch until people try to shut them up. That's the way EVERY SINGLE INTEREST GROUP in our country operates. For everytime I see on fundy whacko on a news show, I see another black whacko, hippy whacko, and hitler youth whacko to beat the band. Blame the system if you want.

Second, as far as, they've dealt a blow to free speech, blah blah blah. Again, it's an IMAX movie. This made absolutely no press waves anywhere in my major city. ZERO. They aren't mainstream, and if they tried anything of consequence, they'd get a hearty smackdown. There is no slippery slope here of them leveraging whatever to get their way.

As far as them shaping our countries values, um, not exactly. Last time I checked there is still a pretty vehement struggle over anything and everything directly related to government and religion. The Ten Commandments aren't sitting in courthouses as one example. They aren't winning the major blows that they claim or that people want to believe. Roe vs. Wade still exists, there is no school prayer, and the FCC is a bigger problem right now than the fundy right on free speech. Quit claiming they've won some massive war on society or something over a movie most people wouldn't even see on a bet.

[Sky]

Every culture had legends of heroic and God-like men in their past, if not in their present, and the Jews had to have an explanation for who these people actually were and where they came from

That was the most accurate description of the Bible I've ever heard, Bruce. Excellent.

But I'm sticking with the Stargate. About the same amount of evidence all the way around.

[SirBruce]

Artist: The New Main Street Singers
Song: The Good Book Song

Oh yeah, yeah yeah
Now God said to Noah
"I don't want no sinnin'"
Oh yeah, yeah yeah
"I've been telling you this since 'In the beginnin'"
Oh yeah, yeah yeah
"You gotta round up your sons and all of their women"
Oh yeah, yeah yeah
"Because you're going on a big boat ride

Now gather all the animals by the pair
Build a big ship about a million square
And put all the animals right in there
And sail away on the tide"

But what if Noah
Had just said "No sir"
Well we'd all have fins and scaly skins
We'd breathe through gills instead of nostrils
And we'd eat fish food instead of vitamin pills

It's scary but it's true,
So do what the good book,
Do what the good book,
Do what the good book tells you to
Oh yeah, yeah yeah

Oh yeah, yeah yeah
Now God said to David, "Do you hear that drummin'?"
Oh yeah, yeah yeah
"You gotta great big Philistine army comin'"
Oh yeah, yeah yeah
"You wanna oil up your sling and really get it hummin'"
Oh yeah, yeah yeah
"Because you're gunna take the big guy down"

Well David got a dose of frights
But he wanted to be King of the Isrealites
So he put old Goliath right in his sights
And he bounced one off of his crown

But what if David, had whined and waited
We'd live like slaves to Philistine naves,
Our bosses would all be 30 feet tall
We'd wash their clothes with a fire hose
And we'd sleep in the cracks between their toes

It's scary but it's true,
And if I were you,
I'd do what the good book,
Do what the good book,
Do what the good book tells me to
Oh yeah, yeah yeah
Do what the good book tells me to
Oh yeah, yeah yeah
Do what the good book tells me to!

Bruce

[Johny Cee]

The seventeenth century called. Giving clergy the power to decide over science doesn't work. I heard Galileo Galilei is spinning in his grave right now.

Galileo got into trouble for politics more than science.  Science was just the technicality the Church used to shut him down. 

[Fargull]

Hmm...

Jim Morrison : About as good a religious base as anyone else...

I will never treat you mean
Never start no kind of scene
I'll tell you every place and person that I've been.
Always a playground instructor, never a killer
Always a bridesmaid on the verge of fame or over
He manouvered two girls into his hotel room
One a friend, the other, the young one, a newer stranger
Vaguely Mexican or Puerto Rican
Poor boys thighs and buttock scarred by a father's belt
She's trying to rie
Story of her boyfriend, of teenage stoned death games
Handsome lad, dead in a car
Confusion
No connections
Come here
I love you
Peace on earth
Will you die for me?
Eat me
This way
The end
I'll always be true
Never go out, sneaking out on you, babe
If you'll only show me Far Arden again.
I'm surprised you could get it up He whips her lightly, sardonically, with belt. Haven't I been through enough? she asks Now dressed and leaving The Spanish girl begins to bleed She says her period It's Catholic heaven I have an ancient Indian crucifix around my neck My chest is hard and brown Lying on stained, wretched sheets with a bleeding virgin We could plan a murder Or start a religion.

[Johny Cee]

Try and remember that these people are on the fringe and they are just loud. The rest of us don't care enough about an IMAX movie to stop them.

You may deem them fringe, but they aren't. They have the power to stop fucking movies from being shown, they have the power to stop schoolbooks mentioning evolution from being used in schools. They have the power to lobby the president to spend several hundred millions on sexual abstinence campaigns while cutting down spending on sex education. They show up on every fucking discussion programme if the topics are religion, religious related or if they have an agenda about it. If they are fringe then they have a very excellent PR department.

I don't get the attitude by the way. "Well they just dealt a blow to free speech but I don't care cause its just an IMAX movie". They have just gained slightly more power and have moved even farther mainstream in the public view by achieving this ban. They will use their leverage next time to attack a bigger target.

By "not caring" you just agree with the outcome whatever it might be just like by not voting you agree with the outcome of an election whatever it might be. It puzzles me that everybody here says these people are fringe and basically loonies but that on the other hand they have shaped your countries views and values to a certain extend in the last few years and there seems to be virtually no opposition to it.

Jeff

They didn't stop shit.  Theaters pulled it because they didn't think the increased costs of a slightly controversial film by local standards was greater than revenue.  As Paelos said, capitalism at work.

For this same reason, you won't see lauding biopics of Sherman in the South,  Pro-life films in Manhattan, negative portrayals of the Irish in Boston, etc. etc. etc.

It pays for private businesses to cater to the local populaces' prejudices and predilections.  Pure and simple.

[Shockeye]

The Bible

I read the bible
I highlight what's important
I highlight the whole thing
It really is a good book

I think there's more truth in here
than a phone book
I think all of it is true
except the part that says God exists

(he loves that great old book)

It's funnier than
a far side cartoon

Like religion
it gives dumb people something to do (something to do)
that isn't scratching lottery tickets
It's sorta the same thing

(he likes religion)

Whenever I walk into a church
all I ever tend to think is
what a great apartment this would make!

(wow)

In case you want to read it
I won't tell you how it ends

[tazelbain]

A good creationist shouldn't be watching a movie on volcanoes, even if there was no mention of evolution.  It still preaches Techtonic Plate Theory and the Princple of Uniformity among other crack-pot ideas.

[WayAbvPar]

A good creationist shouldn't be watching a movie on volcanoes, even if there was no mention of evolution.  It still preaches Techtonic Plate Theory and the Princple of Uniformity among other crack-pot ideas.

That is crazy talk, heathen!

[Stephen Zepp]

There is a really interesting science fiction story called "Calculating God" (Snyopsis Here by Robert J. Sawyer that is themed around Intelligent Design, but approaches it from an absolutely agnostic point of view. I've read it about 5 times and I still haven't been able to decide if it was a religious, scientific, or none of the above argument...very interesting story!

[AOFanboi]

A good creationist shouldn't be watching a movie on volcanoes, even if there was no mention of evolution.  It still preaches Techtonic Plate Theory and the Princple of Uniformity among other crack-pot ideas.

They're too busy reading this book anyway.

[schild]

They're too busy reading this book anyway.

Chapter 5 - Vestigial Organs, Evolution's Leftovers?
                    Downhill Evolution
                    The Appendix
                    Scalp and Ear Muscles
                    Where Did New Organs Come From?
                    New Animals and Endangered Species

I'd kill to read "Where did new organs come from?" It might be funnier than Carlin's Brain Droppings. But probably not. Extreme religious people continue to freak me out.

[Abagadro]

Ahhh Chick.  His Dungeons and Dragons tracts gives me a chuckle every time I read it.

NO, NOT BLACKLEAF!!!!!!

[WayAbvPar]

More Church insanity.

Eat the wafer and suffer like a good Catholic.

I hate to offend, but how can anyone take the Catholic church seriously any more? Their practices and dogma were keen 1000 years ago, but they just aren't keeping up with modern times so well.

[Shockeye]

In a statement released to ABC News, the Diocese of Trenton, said, "Bread, to be valid matter for the eucharist, must be made solely of wheat."

The Roman Catholic Church is outdated, out of touch, and out of their minds.

It isn't about what it's made out of. It could be made out of pig shit for all that matters. Once it becomes the body of Christ, it no longer is anything but the body of Christ. To think that God would prevent the transformation due to the fact it isn't wheat because wheat would kill this girl, is to believe in a God that doesn't believe in mercy. But then, the Church isn't about mercy. It's about money and power.

Fuck the Catholic Church.

[SirBruce]

This isn't new.  Catholics have been dealing with the issue of gluten-free and wheat-free wafers for years:

http://www.livingwithout.com/feature_WheatFreeWorship.htm

Bruce

[Sky]

If the wheat content of a wafer decides the fate of your eternal soul....you might be a catholic.

Hey, Foxworthy's got a whole new bag!

[voodoolily]

God, has anyone seen the Pope lately? Would Yuna just send that guy already?

[Daeven]

See, the problem I have with this attitude is not so much the creationism vs. evolutionism debate itself; rather, it's people who are closeminded and have no interest in hearing another point of view.  Even further, they seem interested in stopping the other point of view from having a voice, though that's really a larger issue.  People on both sides of the creationism/evolutionism debate have the problem.  In fact, it's really a general problem with almost any polarizing debate humans ever take part in.

That's nice. You see, there is this concept knows as ‘non-falsifiable’. In other words, a hypothesis should be discarded if no test case that would disprove it can be formulated. In order to rationally discuss the issue one must be able to frame it in a disprovable manner.

Creationism is non-falsifiable. It literally cannot be disproved.

Come up with a hypothesis that has actual negative test cases and I’ll as open minded as you can possibly imagine. But come at me with something about how Zeus shat out a camel and thus begat photosynthesis, and I’ll back away. Verrrry slowly.

[voodoolily]

Yeah, I hafta agree. Most atheists I know (including myself) aren't just nihilists, they're materialists. The vast majority (all?) of evidence points to no leprechauns, no unicorns, and no god. I know, some may counter with the question of what is acceptable evidence, but I think most would agree that hearsay and a 2000-year old document don't really make for very concrete evidence.

I'd like to add that the Bible has gone through several translations which, btw, were called for by persons with political agendas. I don't think that most people who call themselves Christians can read Hebrew.