The Marvels

[Trippy]

Teaser: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iuk77TjvfmE

In theaters November 10.

[Threash]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iuk77TjvfmE

Man I really liked Ms Marvel and thought Captain Marvel was mostly ok... but this premise is just fan fiction level bad.

[Rendakor]

Isn't this a movie?

[Threash]

Is it? shit, I thought it was a tv show. That's even worse.

[Khaldun]

It's a movie.

I will wait to see re: premise. It might be fine. It's actually invoking something that was part of the old Captain Marvel comic for a while--he had two wrist bands that let him swap places with Rick Jones where the swapped-out person went to the Negative Zone. (I don't know if they ever explained what the Negative Zoned-person was doing while there--it can't have been the dangerous parts of the Zone or Jones would have died.) Even though Captain Marvel was a mostly serious character, especially written by Starlin, the swap-out was usually done for laughs (say, Rick is about to get it on with his girlfriend, only a bad guy attacks and he has to swap out and sit with blue balls off in the Zone for a while.)

On the other hand, I sure as hell hope they're going to do more post-production work because it looks fucking cheap.

[Velorath]

I don't know if Mar-Vell had a bit more freedom when it was his turn to be in the Negative Zone, but Rick generally was generally stuck floating in space with some energy surrounding him when he was there.

[Sky]

They had me at litter of flerkins.

[Threash]

I take it back, movie was fun and good.

[Velorath]

It was an absolute mess. It was also quite a bit of fun.

[Threash]

I think Iman Vellani's excitement is so contagious it just convinces you everything is awesome.

[Velorath]

Yeah, she's entertaining to watch. We also get fun Nick Fury instead of sad sack Secret Invasion Nick Fury. In fact Secret Invasion is pretty much ignored entirely (so the Skrulls have an Emperor and a planet they're currently living on now? ). I mean it's probably for the best that SI isn't mentioned at all but it just another sign of the MCU's lack of cohesiveness as of late. If it was going to have an impact on anything in the MCU this would have been it.

[eldaec]

I think Iman Vellani's excitement is so contagious it just convinces you everything is awesome.

I stopping going to the cinema for the MCU after they tricked me into sitting through winter soldier. But she's the reason I'm looking forward to this being on TV.

The biggest problem with post endgame MCU is that most of it isn't fun, but I don't think it's possible to make something that isn't fun with Iman Vellani (or for that matter the actors playing her parents).

[Rendakor]

I think Iman Vellani's excitement is so contagious it just convinces you everything is awesome.

I stopping going to the cinema for the MCU after they tricked me into sitting through winter soldier. But she's the reason I'm looking forward to this being on TV.

The biggest problem with post endgame MCU is that most of it isn't fun, but I don't think it's possible to make something that isn't fun with Iman Vellani (or for that matter the actors playing her parents).

When you say Winter Soldier, do you mean the movie or the TV show? Because I thought the movie was good.

[Threash]

He means the movie, he's not a fan. I believe we've had this talk before, most people think its one of the best MCU movies.

[Riggswolfe]

I haven't seen this yet but I'm seeing positive feedback on it along with "it's the lowest earning MCU movie ever."

Obviously, conservatives are saying it's because it's a "girl movie" and everyone hates Brie Larson. I think people are just very wary of MCU movies after a string of disappointments and the Marvels is paying the price for it.

[Rendakor]

He means the movie, he's not a fan. I believe we've had this talk before, most people think its one of the best MCU movies.

I sort of remember that, yea. That's what I get for not keeping up to date .txt files...

[eldaec]

I think of winter soldier as the moment MCU films started to dial down the fun.

It comes back in gotg or Spiderman and some others.

But for me winter soldier was the one where 'the template' became super visible and they sometimes seemed to decide the continuity was more important than the story they were actually telling. See also: antman quantumthingy, civil war, avengers 2.

I want to see this one but tbh I do worry it might be too much about bangles and shoehorning TV characters into movie goers consciousness.

At the end of this do you end up thinking 'oh yes, Ms Marvel and the wandavision lady were the right characters to tell this story with - and also were fun people to spend 2 hours watching' or is it more 'oh Bucky is alive now and shooting people because reasons'?

I'm optimistic about ms marvel based on the show.

[Threash]

I mean, the two movies directly preceding Winter Soldier were Thor: the dark world and Iron Man 3, so it's kinda weird to pick that as the spot where they lost the plot.

[Khaldun]

I'm kind of at a loss about what the fun was in that reading.

[eldaec]

I mean, the two movies directly preceding Winter Soldier were Thor: the dark world and Iron Man 3, so it's kinda weird to pick that as the spot where they lost the plot.

Dark world and and iron man 3 were badly executed. Dark world in particular is definitely worse than winter soldier.

But Winter soldier seemed to me like a bad idea.

I mean, I get that others like it and that is fine - I think I can see what some people like about it. I just think of it as the first time I saw the MCU doing the specific things not well, that it now often does not do well.

I see a lot of the WS problems in Captain Marvel, ant man 3, or Dr strange 2 fwiw.

[Riggswolfe]

But Winter soldier seemed to me like a bad idea.

I mean, I get that others like it and that is fine - I think I can see what some people like about it. I just think of it as the first time I saw the MCU doing the specific things not well, that it now often does not do well.

I see a lot of the WS problems in Captain Marvel, ant man 3, or Dr strange 2 fwiw.

This is such a fascinating take for me. The only issue I had with WS was it had a bit too much shaky cam in some scenes but the script was tight and the idea of a spy thriller in Marvel was pretty cool. I just can't see, at all, what it has in common with those other movies you mentioned. I think, if anything, Marvel desperately needs another movie as well made as Winter Soldier.

[Rendakor]

We've certainly had this conversation before, and I'm with basically everyone else. Winter Soldier was good, one of the better MCU movies honestly.

[Samwise]

We've certainly had this conversation before

just necro the thread already, you cowards

 

[eldaec]

Fwiw, looks like younger and even more good looking me agrees with you guys more than I remember, and liked it more than grumpy older me does on a rewatch.

[Threash]

Yeah, I don't think we really talked about it on the original thread, the one i was thinking off was a lot more recent.

[eldaec]

I want to see this one but tbh I do worry it might be too much about bangles and shoehorning TV characters into movie goers consciousness.

I finally saw it and this is still the problem.

The first 45 minutes, the big switchy fight was ok, but too long.

I think they had a real problem with the 'Annihilator' thing. They never exactly resolved Capt Marvel's thing. She just sort of started doing better.

But I like the Ms Marvel / Capt Marvel double act a lot. And from the water planet on, they make it fun. Which is more than can be said for some other recent MCU entries.

[Typhon]

Slow work day, putting way too much thought into this because I'm bored.

I watched this.  Even though some parts are really good, I really disliked the movie as a whole.  I like Thor 2 more than this one, because at least I know what Thor 2 was trying to be (a war movie) and it had good action sequences.  I'm not sure what this movie was trying to be and I was not impressed with it's action scenes.  The MCU needs new writers.  Or maybe fewer writers?  I don't know, lately the stories just leave me flat.  Maybe I have super-hero burnout.  I agree with eldaec, the part where they are getting used to working together was good, but I found the actual fights lacking. 

I found Bri Larson's performance... off.  Mostly, just wooden, but even when she was trying to be effusive, I just didn't believe it.  I think she's better at roles where her character is edgy.  I found it especially obvious when on screen with Iman Vellani.  :) shout out to her again, she's just a joy to watch (and her family).  Monica Rambo and Dar-Ben (the villain) are just cut outs (writer issue).  I would have really liked for Monica to have a reason to be in this movie, but being sad that Capt Marvel didn't come back like she said she would... I just didn't find compelling.  I think there was a missed opportunity for Monica to be the bridge between a naive and idealistic Ms Marvel and worn-out Capn Marvel.  Based upon Wanda Vision I think the actress can do something if they would just give her something worth doing.

Given the setup of the story, the antagonist should not have been a villain. She has a valid point.  How can you argue against someone fighting for their world?
Dar-Ben: You fucked over my planet and all my people are dying and I'm fighting for survival.  I have no reason to trust you and my people depend on me not fucking this up, I have no more chances. 
Captain Marvel: Your AI was fucking over the galaxy!

It's kind of telling that Capt Marvel doesn't actually give a shit about Hala until it becomes a her/Skrull problem.  I kind of feel like Capt Marvel is the villain in this story.  Like, you can rejuvenate stars but you don't bother to until everyone knows how badly you fucked up?

They need to stop combining world or universe-level existential threats with light-hearted romps.  Or stop using the existential backdrop as a way to get me to care only to follow it immediately with an all singing and dancing romp.  As much as I loved Ragnarök, I think it should have been a one-off, not a framework.  If you'll stop with the world-destroying events, I think I can appreciate the singing/dancing/hijinks more.  If the characters themselves don't give a fuck about the world ending, why should I?

Capn Marvel character has a power-level problem.  Two planets got fucked up, but somehow she fixes all that and revitalizes a star.  I mean, come on, it's ok that a movie ends with shit fucked up.  Not everything is fixable, how are planets that had their water and air stolen, "getting better"?  So someone came up with the skeleton of a good story, but lacked the guts to see it through.

Stupid Nitpick: Writers, in general, need to be punched in the crotch whenever they mention, "revitalizing a star".  It's just not a thing in this universe or any universe that has stars.  Just so much less energy to move people to a new planet rather than breaking a star's iron back down into protons.  I mean they literally have portals already in the movie.  Also, because Dar Ben is a moron, let's open the portal above the water and have it siphon it via a water spout (versus opening the portal at the bottom of the ocean).

[Threash]

Given the setup of the story, the antagonist should not have been a villain. She has a valid point.  How can you argue against someone fighting for their world?

This is something the MCU does a lot, make the villains have good points or just outright be completely correct but then have them do a buncha evil shit so you still think of them as bad guys. Killmonger, Baron Zemo, the flag smashers.

[Velorath]

Given the setup of the story, the antagonist should not have been a villain. She has a valid point.  How can you argue against someone fighting for their world?

If you and your family get into an argument and burn your house down, it doesn't give you the right to kill the neighbors and take their house.

[eldaec]

Given the setup of the story, the antagonist should not have been a villain. She has a valid point.  How can you argue against someone fighting for their world?

This is something the MCU does a lot, make the villains have good points or just outright be completely correct but then have them do a buncha evil shit so you still think of them as bad guys. Killmonger, Baron Zemo, the flag smashers.

I mean, not just the MCU, almost all good fiction does this.

[Typhon]

Given the setup of the story, the antagonist should not have been a villain. She has a valid point.  How can you argue against someone fighting for their world?

If you and your family get into an argument and burn your house down, it doesn't give you the right to kill the neighbors and take their house.

False equivalence.

[Velorath]

Not really. Captain Marvel destroyed the Supreme Intelligence, and with good reason. All the damage done to the Kree homeworld was done by the Kree itself in the Civil War that followed. The planets that had their resources stolen to fix Hala had fuck all to do with the conflict aside from having connections to Captain Marvel, with the Skrull having already been on the receiving end of Kree violence long before anything from either of the Captain Marvel movies went down.

If anything the biggest issue with The Marvels is that Carol's sense of guilt seems incredibly forced considering the Kree provoked her actions and were considered to be an aggressive and genocidal cultural in general.

So no, regarding Dar-Benn. you do not, under any circumstances, "gotta hand it to her"

[Typhon]

All the stuff I typed is just based upon the movie, btw, I never read any of these comics.  And it assumes that the movie doesn't have any false narrative stuff going on.  Also, I'm entirely dispassionate about this conversation.  Pretty sure you are as well, just amusing myself while work is so slow.  I'm as baffled as anyone that I'm putting any thought into this, given that I thought the movie was, sadly, not even 'meh'.  I just happen to pick Dar-Ben's side because I think the only thing that might have saved this movie is if it 1) leaned in on these tough questions, 2) stayed away from these existential-level shit and have fun with a modest-level threat.

Back to my defense of Dar-Ben.

So Cap Marvel destroys the supreme leader of the Kree race, leaving a massive power vacuum, and then fucks off to where ever leaving them to their own devices?  Unlike a family in a house (just horrible false equivalence, I feel like that was a gift from you to me), this is an actual civilization where the "civil" part is as fragile as any civilization and the power vacuum that follows the assassination of the leader of course leads to strife.  Carol is up to her elbows in culpability for the civil war.  To which she is tragically neutral/impassive, allowing the destruction and suffering to spin wildly out of control because... fuck those guys? That seems pretty evil.  At best, maybe she just doesn't give a fuck.  What about the SNAP!  That could be the... no.  I think realistically the snap would have defused the civil war, so by then the damage is done, so Carol dealing with the SNAP aftermath is a non-defense.

What makes Dar-Ben a villain is everything she does after Captain Marvel fucks up the (forced) deal with the Skrulls.  After that, Dar-Ben makes it personal and is just doing the same thing to other folks that was done to her, i.e., fucking up their planets.  Complete villain at that point.  Prior to that, it seems to me that she's fighting for the lives of all the people on that planet.  So yeah, I absolutely up to that point I have to hand it to her, especially if she's like a mid-level Kree just trying to piece things back together.  I'm not arguing that she's a hero, she is forcibly displacing the Skrull.  But I wouldn't paint her a villain, just desperate.

All that ignores that the whole "let's steal air from somewhere else" plan just being pants on head level stupid.  There are no planets with life, but no sentience?  You couldn't open a portal from Hala to one of those (solving the sun, water and air problems simultaneously)?  You couldn't open multiple portals to different Kree worlds?  It's just bad writing.

I think you missed a major opportunity to defend Carol given the whole wiping of memories and mental manipulation the Kree inflicted upon her.  She's definitely got the PTSD defense going for her as a reason for just being completely checked out for what happened on Hala.   I would argue that not continuing to beat the fuck out of Hala/Kree was an act of incredible restraint.  She's the victim here, and I'm outraged at my assertion that the time that she spent healing from the atrocities that the Kree inflicted upon my cilent are viewed as some derliction of duty... a duty, I'm might remind this court, that Ms Danvers takes upon herself voluntarily.  If she's not a hero, I don't know who is.

I'm starting to feel like a got some entertainment out of this movie. 

[Velorath]

All the stuff I typed is just based upon the movie, btw, I never read any of these comics.  And it assumes that the movie doesn't have any false narrative stuff going on.  Also, I'm entirely dispassionate about this conversation.  Pretty sure you are as well, just amusing myself while work is so slow.  I'm as baffled as anyone that I'm putting any thought into this, given that I thought the movie was, sadly, not even 'meh'.  I just happen to pick Dar-Ben's side because I think the only thing that might have saved this movie is if it 1) leaned in on these tough questions, 2) stayed away from these existential-level shit and have fun with a modest-level threat.

Back to my defense of Dar-Ben.

So Cap Marvel destroys the supreme leader of the Kree race, leaving a massive power vacuum, and then fucks off to where ever leaving them to their own devices?  Unlike a family in a house (just horrible false equivalence, I feel like that was a gift from you to me), this is an actual civilization where the "civil" part is as fragile as any civilization and the power vacuum that follows the assassination of the leader of course leads to strife.  Carol is up to her elbows in culpability for the civil war.  To which she is tragically neutral/impassive, allowing the destruction and suffering to spin wildly out of control because... fuck those guys? That seems pretty evil.  At best, maybe she just doesn't give a fuck.  What about the SNAP!  That could be the... no.  I think realistically the snap would have defused the civil war, so by then the damage is done, so Carol dealing with the SNAP aftermath is a non-defense.

What makes Dar-Ben a villain is everything she does after Captain Marvel fucks up the (forced) deal with the Skrulls.  After that, Dar-Ben makes it personal and is just doing the same thing to other folks that was done to her, i.e., fucking up their planets.  Complete villain at that point.  Prior to that, it seems to me that she's fighting for the lives of all the people on that planet.  So yeah, I absolutely up to that point I have to hand it to her, especially if she's like a mid-level Kree just trying to piece things back together.  I'm not arguing that she's a hero, she is forcibly displacing the Skrull.  But I wouldn't paint her a villain, just desperate.

All that ignores that the whole "let's steal air from somewhere else" plan just being pants on head level stupid.  There are no planets with life, but no sentience?  You couldn't open a portal from Hala to one of those (solving the sun, water and air problems simultaneously)?  You couldn't open multiple portals to different Kree worlds?  It's just bad writing.

I think you missed a major opportunity to defend Carol given the whole wiping of memories and mental manipulation the Kree inflicted upon her.  She's definitely got the PTSD defense going for her as a reason for just being completely checked out for what happened on Hala.   I would argue that not continuing to beat the fuck out of Hala/Kree was an act of incredible restraint.  She's the victim here, and I'm outraged at my assertion that the time that she spent healing from the atrocities that the Kree inflicted upon my cilent are viewed as some derliction of duty... a duty, I'm might remind this court, that Ms Danvers takes upon herself voluntarily.  If she's not a hero, I don't know who is.

I'm starting to feel like a got some entertainment out of this movie. 

The family in the house analogy is because the what happened to Hala is entirely due to the Kree's own Civil War. You can say that Captain Marvel left a power vacuum when she destroyed the Supreme Intelligence, but: a) Carol's conflict with the Supreme Intelligence is caused directly as a result of brainwashing Carol to use as a weapon, thus still being entirely self-inflicted, b) the Kree were in the process of committing genocide on the Skrulls, and were also ready to attack Earth at the end of Captain Marvel when Carol upped her power level and beat them back, and c) were you expecting Carol to somehow organize free and fair democratic elections on Hala after taking out the SI? "Carol didn't stick around and completely reform Kree civilization" seems like a crazy argument to make.

Also you make it sound like Dar-Benn didn't have the plan to steal the resources of other planets until after Carol gets involved again (since you say she becomes a villain after the Skrull peace talks break down), even though she's looking for the quantum bands at the start of the movie. Her plan all along is to do exactly what she ends up doing: kill three other planets to restore the one her own people fucked up. There's never a single point in the movie where this wasn't her plan and she wasn't the villain. And yeah, she probably could have stolen resources from non-inhabited planets, although the fact that it's been so hard to find the Skrulls a new world suggests that maybe there aren't that many. She picked the worlds she went after specifically as revenge against Carol.

So yeah, I stand by my assessment that the fate the befell the Kree was entirely self-inflicted. They torched their own house, put the blame on the most convenient option available, and the used that to justify further atrocities.

[Typhon]

The family in the house analogy is because the what happened to Hala is entirely due to the Kree's own Civil War. You can say that Captain Marvel left a power vacuum when she destroyed the Supreme Intelligence, but: a) Carol's conflict with the Supreme Intelligence is caused directly as a result of brainwashing Carol to use as a weapon, thus still being entirely self-inflicted, b) the Kree were in the process of committing genocide on the Skrulls, and were also ready to attack Earth at the end of Captain Marvel when Carol upped her power level and beat them back, and c) were you expecting Carol to somehow organize free and fair democratic elections on Hala after taking out the SI? "Carol didn't stick around and completely reform Kree civilization" seems like a crazy argument to make.

Also you make it sound like Dar-Benn didn't have the plan to steal the resources of other planets until after Carol gets involved again (since you say she becomes a villain after the Skrull peace talks break down), even though she's looking for the quantum bands at the start of the movie. Her plan all along is to do exactly what she ends up doing: kill three other planets to restore the one her own people fucked up. There's never a single point in the movie where this wasn't her plan and she wasn't the villain. And yeah, she probably could have stolen resources from non-inhabited planets, although the fact that it's been so hard to find the Skrulls a new world suggests that maybe there aren't that many. She picked the worlds she went after specifically as revenge against Carol.

So yeah, I stand by my assessment that the fate the befell the Kree was entirely self-inflicted. They torched their own house, put the blame on the most convenient option available, and the used that to justify further atrocities.

The family analogy implies that the Kree civilization is as cohesive as a family is expected to be (you, not burning down their own house) and, given how similar/selfish the Kree seem to be to humans, that's pure fantasy (ref: Poland, Hungry, Turkey, USA, Russia and now, apparently, Germany (? maybe I have that wrong, maybe the far-right in Germany aren't a significant percentage of the population).  It's not a family, it's a civilization.  At least 99% of Kree society had no idea what the SI (i'm lazy) was up to, and were told exactly what the SI had figured they needed to be told to keep them docile and productive.  After that, it was the surviving 1% in the know/near the levers of power hoping to grab it all.  I don't think it was that unreasonable to hope that Carol would show up to stop the most destructive parts of the civil war that she put in motion to keep the 99% of innocent civilians from horrible death.  And it seems like Carol, at least, agrees with me.

Not my intention to imply that stealing air and water weren't the plan.  Dar-Benn's plan was to steal air from that Skrull world.  I feel I need to say again, it's a stupid plan.  Also, there wasn't an ongoing negotiation, or any negotiation.  She flat-out told the Skrull that it was happening, and if they didn't resist, they would be spared (I don't remember any details on how they'd be spared, so she could have been lying about that, but the Skrull seemed to believe her).  That implies to me that at this point of the story, she's just desperate, not evil*.



*went off on a tangent here.  I'm not arguing that she's universally good or good in some abstract way, I'm arguing that she is 'good' in the context of the hapless Kree on Hala.  But also, in a universe where gods actually exist, but they never show up to help mortals... what is good?  It's my biggest struggle with these comics, you've written in gods, but they are pretty uniformly horrible/uncaring, so really what do good and evil really mean?  The comics are written to appeal to our judeo/christian morality that don't make any sense even a thousand years ago.