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Author Topic: DC Universe (Gods and Monsters)  (Read 1613 times)
Khaldun
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Posts: 15157


on: January 31, 2023, 10:41:11 AM

Gunn and Safran have announced their initial "phase" for DC films and TV shows.

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/movies/movie-features/james-gunn-unveils-dc-slate-batman-superman-1235314176

Upshot:

1. New Superman movie, summer 2025 release. "Not an origin story". Described as the linchpin of their new version of the DC Universe.
2. Film version of The Authority.
3. New DCU Batman (film?), based on Grant Morrison's introduction of Damian Wayne as the new Robin. (A son Batman didn't know he had, raised by assassins)
4. New Matt Reeves Batman film with Pattinson, not part of the DCU. 2025 release.
5. Supergirl movie, based on Tom King's recent more grimdark take on Supergirl.
6. Swamp Thing, described as the end of this first "phase"

TV:

Creature Commandos animated series
Waller TV series, basically a sequel to Peacemaker
Lanterns, a Green Lantern TV series that's being described as a superhero police procedural in space. They're talking this one up as central to the new DCU
Paradise Lost, a "Game of Thrones" political intrigue series set on Paradise Island before Wonder Woman is a thing
Booster Gold, HBO Max series.
HaemishM
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Reply #1 on: January 31, 2023, 05:08:03 PM

I'm down for about half of those things. Matt Reeves Batman, sure (wouldn't have minded this being a DCU thing but whatever). Superman movie, sure. New take on Supergirl, Swamp Thing? I'll bite. Lanterns, Waller TV show, Booster Gold, I'll take all of those. Creature Commandos? Yeah, why not?

The Authority as part of a DC Universe is going to be weird to me, since it would be pretty much a direct rival to the Justice League. Paradise Island without Wonder Woman? Why?

And I realize I'm in the minority on this, most likely, but I absolutely fucking hated the Grant Morrison run on Batman, mostly because I could not stand Damian Wayne as a character or as a Robin.

Velorath
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Posts: 8980


Reply #2 on: January 31, 2023, 06:38:15 PM

I'm down for about half of those things.

Sounds like you're closer to about 80-90%.
Hoax
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Reply #3 on: February 01, 2023, 07:06:40 AM

im not entirely sure i know what all of that means and DC hasn't even earned me reading the link at this point.

Things I would sign up to watch at this time, a hot supergirl or sick animation of whatever the fuck Creature Commandos might pull me in as well:
Quote
Upshot:

6. Swamp Thing, described as the end of this first "phase"

TV:

Lanterns, a Green Lantern TV series that's being described as a superhero police procedural in space. They're talking this one up as central to the new DCU
Booster Gold, HBO Max series.


A nation consists of its laws. A nation does not consist of its situation at a given time. If an individual's morals are situational, then that individual is without morals. If a nation's laws are situational, that nation has no laws, and soon isn't a nation.
-William Gibson
Khaldun
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Reply #4 on: February 01, 2023, 07:42:36 AM

A lot of this is very very Gunn, which is to be expected. It kind of illuminates how different Kevin Feige's choices were just because of the difference between DC's IP and Marvel's IP--Feige could encourage his directors to take classic storylines/creative arcs and adapt them. (Notably, some of the worst MCU films have been ones that don't really call back to any particular story or character treatment.)

Whereas Gunn (and Safran) not only has to decide what story arcs, but which era of the company's incredibly unevenly developed 'universe' to try and pull from in order to create a mood. I think it's encouraging that they're thinking in terms of "phases" that are thematic rather than sequential ("Gods and Monsters" for this one)--it's less a matter of telling one gigantic metastory and more a matter of picking which chocolates to take from the big tray.

I get why Gunn likes The Authority; but I'm with Haemish, I don't see how you fit that in world that not only has a Justice League but also a world that has the Suicide Squad. (Because one way to do The Authority would be to have them be the secret super-rulers of the planet rather than openly dictating commands to governments from their giant living spaceship or whatever.)

I certainly want a *different* Superman than the Man of Steel Superman so I'm ok with that. I don't think there's ever been a truly great Superman movie (the second Christopher Reeve movie gets closest, but it's pretty tonally weird).

I liked the Pattinson Batman, and there's a good character arc going by the end of the first film, so by all means continue.

Damian Wayne w/Batman might be easier to stomach if he's not the first Robin and the rest of the Bat-Family are around somewhere in the wings. Like, if we could have a regular old comic-booky Batman where we see him with all of his background intact, in the middle of an ongoing career, that would be nice. I'm not all that fond of Damian, but maybe if they tone down the bratty "I am the best ninja-assassin the world" stuff it will work.

I blow hot and cold on Tom King's stuff generally but I guess making Supergirl the angry, sad, conflicted Super-Family character isn't a bad idea--Supergirl as the EVEN MORE optimistic Super-Person is usually just too saccharine.

Swamp Thing will really turn on whether they can do the crazy-ass visuals of the Alan Moore Swamp Thing in a way that feels compelling. I have no interest in a Swamp Thing that's just a dude in a rubber suit running around a swamp, even if it's a James Gunn-played-for-laughs thing.

The TV stuff is very plainly where it's Gunn's take shining through except maybe the Lanterns series. I can easily see what a Gunn-influenced Booster Gold series looks like.

I hope they rethink the Paradise Lost series, though. Honestly, if you wanted to take a DC property and do "Game of Thrones" on it, Gorilla City would be way more fun. Or maybe pit two characters who have organizations against each other against a backdrop of geopolitical intrigue.  Ra's al-Ghul vs. Vandal Savage. Or for that matter Hippolyta vs. Vandal Savage--have the Amazons doing the same schtick as the Wakandans where they have a big espionage/dirty tricks squad aimed at controlling "the world of men" come up against Vandal Savage's organization during the era of the French Revolution, do a kind of Assassin's Creed take on it. There's just something about the idea of intrigue within the Amazons that just feels dull.
Khaldun
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Posts: 15157


Reply #5 on: February 01, 2023, 11:14:04 AM

Ah, this is interesting: James Mangold (director of Logan)  is presently in talks to direct the proposed Swamp Thing movie.
Johny Cee
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Reply #6 on: February 01, 2023, 12:21:25 PM

A lot of this is very very Gunn, which is to be expected. It kind of illuminates how different Kevin Feige's choices were just because of the difference between DC's IP and Marvel's IP--Feige could encourage his directors to take classic storylines/creative arcs and adapt them. (Notably, some of the worst MCU films have been ones that don't really call back to any particular story or character treatment.)

Whereas Gunn (and Safran) not only has to decide what story arcs, but which era of the company's incredibly unevenly developed 'universe' to try and pull from in order to create a mood. I think it's encouraging that they're thinking in terms of "phases" that are thematic rather than sequential ("Gods and Monsters" for this one)--it's less a matter of telling one gigantic metastory and more a matter of picking which chocolates to take from the big tray.

I get why Gunn likes The Authority; but I'm with Haemish, I don't see how you fit that in world that not only has a Justice League but also a world that has the Suicide Squad. (Because one way to do The Authority would be to have them be the secret super-rulers of the planet rather than openly dictating commands to governments from their giant living spaceship or whatever.)

Back in the day, I read the first few collected batches of The Authority, and my god the fascism just leaps out at you.  I don't understand how you can put that into your "regular" universe without tainting the rest of it.

Quote
I certainly want a *different* Superman than the Man of Steel Superman so I'm ok with that. I don't think there's ever been a truly great Superman movie (the second Christopher Reeve movie gets closest, but it's pretty tonally weird).

Timm/Dini Superman.  Not a "movie" but that Superman had god knows how many episodes between his show and the followup show and the Justice League cartoons...  and he is pretty much perfect Superman.  I just don't get how someone hasn't done the homework and straight up adapted that Superman. 

Khaldun
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Reply #7 on: February 01, 2023, 12:54:42 PM

The Authority has one glorious opening arc where they take everything that was in the previous Stormwatch comic and just rip it up beautifully. Not surprisingly, because Warren Ellis wrote both of them and he decided that since nobody liked Stormwatch commercially but lots of comics insiders did, the right answer was to blow shit up in every way but keep some of the characters. So that first story where The Authority go after the Yellow Peril bad guy Kaizen Gamorra when he starts sending superpowered terrorist clones to attack major cities is fun because it just subverts so much of the way that kind of story normally goes in comics. The Authority just flat-out slaughter most of the clones and protect civilians effectively (in part because they don't have any limitations on what they can do) and then when Gamorra raises an impenetrable force field around his Evil Cloning Island City, The Authority take their giant living interdimensional ship and crash through his not-so-impenetrable force field and then through his Evil Base. (Gamorra's last words: "I only wanted to have some fun".) (And yes, I know they brought him back to life way later. Comics Everybody!)

After that The Authority is pretty nasty shit, and it's REALLY nasty when Mark Millar takes over. (One early storyline: an all-powerful villain facing off against one female member of The Authority goes back in time and molests her as her pediatrician.) 

The basic concept is just the same thing they were peddling in the Black Adam film: oh! superheroes without moral codes! EXTREME superheroes! I can't see how it works. I sort of hope that somehow this drops out of the plans.

Completely agree that Timm/Dini Superman is the best, but that kind of goes for the entire DCAU, really. Pretty much the best that most DC characters have ever been on film or TV.
Velorath
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Posts: 8980


Reply #8 on: February 01, 2023, 01:03:45 PM

The Authority is one of the least interesting things Ellis has written and was carried largely by Hitch's art. Hitch also noted on Twitter that Gunn posting this announcement was the first he'd heard of the project.
Johny Cee
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Posts: 3454


Reply #9 on: February 01, 2023, 01:25:16 PM

The Authority has one glorious opening arc where they take everything that was in the previous Stormwatch comic and just rip it up beautifully. Not surprisingly, because Warren Ellis wrote both of them and he decided that since nobody liked Stormwatch commercially but lots of comics insiders did, the right answer was to blow shit up in every way but keep some of the characters. So that first story where The Authority go after the Yellow Peril bad guy Kaizen Gamorra when he starts sending superpowered terrorist clones to attack major cities is fun because it just subverts so much of the way that kind of story normally goes in comics. The Authority just flat-out slaughter most of the clones and protect civilians effectively (in part because they don't have any limitations on what they can do) and then when Gamorra raises an impenetrable force field around his Evil Cloning Island City, The Authority take their giant living interdimensional ship and crash through his not-so-impenetrable force field and then through his Evil Base. (Gamorra's last words: "I only wanted to have some fun".) (And yes, I know they brought him back to life way later. Comics Everybody!)

After that The Authority is pretty nasty shit, and it's REALLY nasty when Mark Millar takes over. (One early storyline: an all-powerful villain facing off against one female member of The Authority goes back in time and molests her as her pediatrician.) 

The basic concept is just the same thing they were peddling in the Black Adam film: oh! superheroes without moral codes! EXTREME superheroes! I can't see how it works. I sort of hope that somehow this drops out of the plans.

Completely agree that Timm/Dini Superman is the best, but that kind of goes for the entire DCAU, really. Pretty much the best that most DC characters have ever been on film or TV.


I think The Authority started with some subtle nods towards our heroes being actually wrong...  but in the same way The Punisher always flirts with that line.  Like, someone comes up with a thoughtful storyline about how damaged and self-defeating the "Hard Men" cliches are but done in a cool way with cool characters and you blink a couple times and all of a sudden you have your characters doing awful things non-stop and the narrative is unabashedly supporting them.  They go pretty hard Left-Fash pretty quick....  Western Democracies are corrupt and shitty.  Developing Countries having unrest/civil war?  Send our Superman-expy down and he'll murder a bunch of people and wrap it up no problem.  The villains are right out of the Gray-Black moral view of they have to be wretchedly, disgustingly awful because our heroes will do shit like pull fingers off of prisoner for information, or cause collateral damage in the tens of thousands.


At least they didn't start a fascist Ethnostate like the Xmen though.   Ohhhhh, I see.
Khaldun
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Reply #10 on: February 02, 2023, 08:10:40 AM

More from Gunn on what they're aiming to do, with some pretty clear swipes at the formula that the MCU uses:

https://variety.com/2023/film/news/dc-james-gunn-peter-safran-creative-vision-screenwriting-1235507276/
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