MEO Update

[Murgos]

So I was chatting up a 'nice girl' on the phone and she asked me what books I had read recently, Well other than a biography of a recent general, CINC SOCOM during gulf I, (Which I didn't think she would want to hear about) I reread LoTR a few months ago.  So I said Lord of the Rings and she responds without missing a beat.

"So you're into witchcraft?"

It's nice to find the whackos early in the relationship.  Funny thing is that I am sure she felt the same way.

[kaid]

That is almost as good as the guy who saw me reading my new shiny 3rd edition players handbook back in the day who asked if I could cast spells in real life. I said yes and stared at him until he backed away.


kaid

[Paelos]

That is almost as good as the guy who saw me reading my new shiny 3rd edition players handbook back in the day who asked if I could cast spells in real life. I said yes and stared at him until he backed away.

LIGHTNING BOLT LIGHTNING BOLT LIGHTNING BOLT!

[Roac]

Looks like the veil of silence on MEO's redesign is partially lifted.  Of note:

...let this be the first bold statement as to what we now are: player versus player conflict as it is known in massively multiplayer games will not be a part of Middle-earth. Player characters, the things we as game designers ask you to invest hours of your life into, will never attack or be attacked by another player character.

Never?  No race wars, no GvG, not even consentual dueling.  They mention a caveat about a hole being left in the statement, which I presume to be some sort of indirect PvP.  Maybe by beating down the other side's NPC army?

[schild]

To follow up on Roac's post - here's a mess more stuff from Teos:

Linkie.

The note at the end is...interesting to me.

This is my pledge to you: I promise that we are not taking these things lightly. Anything can be done badly, but we care at least as much as all of you about the integrity of the license and the fun of the game. There is no question about that. The applicable point here is that we did not remove Alignment to save ourselves work (believe me, approaching this in content is much more work than relying on a system to do it). We did it to create the environment in which we felt we could deliver you the best possible play experience.

Perhaps the MMOG Industry actually does realize what a terrible cesspit it's turned out to be.

[Mesozoic]

Perhaps the MMOG Industry actually does realize what a terrible cesspit it's turned out to be.

Popquiz!

In the following picture, I am:

a) Holding a ball.
b) Airborne.

[schild]

Heh, ok, you win.

[HaemishM]

No PVP. Consider my interest level pretty goddamn low about this point, and in need of convincing otherwise.

[Der Helm]

No PvP ?

So no way to slaughter the hundreds of LEEtgolasses that will be crawling all over this game ?

My interest level just dropped from sea level to this spot



 Thank you very much ...

[Mesozoic]

No PVP. Consider my interest level pretty goddamn low about this point, and in need of convincing otherwise.

Well I'm sure they'll compensate with "innovative gameplay" in an "exciting, dynamic world" that "dry-rapes you in the eye."

[Der Helm]

Well I'm sure they'll compensate with "innovative gameplay" in an "exciting, dynamic world" that "dry-rapes you in the eye."

I thought  "exciting, dynamic world"  was what public relations people called PvP  ?

[shiznitz]

You chose to highlight "exciting, dynamic world" over "dry-rapes you in the eye"? Priorities, sir! I don't even know what a dry-rape is, but it just rolls off the tongue.

[Paelos]

You chose to highlight "exciting, dynamic world" over "dry-rapes you in the eye"? Priorities, sir! I don't even know what a dry-rape is, but it just rolls off the tongue.

It's like regular rape but with more rug burn.

[Der Helm]

One has to take precautions

[Toast]

The game is better off without PvP.

So, your interest level would be greater with high level players ganking newbie hobbits in The Shire?

[shiznitz]

So, your interest level would be greater with high level players ganking newbie hobbits in The Shire?

Because that is all PvP entails, of course. No reason to set the barn on fire to prove there are horses inside.

[Hoax]

Yawntastic!

What exactly are players supposed to be doing in this game?

[HaemishM]

The game is better off without PvP.

So, your interest level would be greater with high level players ganking newbie hobbits in The Shire?

No, but as was said, that's not the only definition of PVP, and that sort of shit isn't even required to have PVP. It just means that either all the characters will have to be "good" alignment characters, or lots of possible roleplaying tension is going to be removed in favor of game mechanics.

See Everquest.

[Paelos]

Yawntastic!

What exactly are players supposed to be doing in this game?

Engaging in epics battles between good and evil for control of Middle Earth, obviously.

But only if they other side signs a waiver and agrees to the battle set forth in the EULA.

[Hoax]

But at least those evil fucking pk'ers wont rape me because they are all social degenerates with a hard-on for destroying happiness!!  w00t

I really do not need to get into this stupid debate again.

[El Gallo]

I am strongly in favor of flushing continuity and roleplaying considerations down the toilet when faced with the decision to flush them or make shitty game mechanics in an attempt to accomodate them.  The latter path leads to a very bad place [SWG].

[MaceVanHoffen]

No, but as was said, that's not the only definition of PVP, and that sort of shit isn't even required to have PVP. It just means that either all the characters will have to be "good" alignment characters, or lots of possible roleplaying tension is going to be removed in favor of game mechanics.

See Everquest.

Yeah, exactly.  EQ did have open, nonconsensual PvP.  It's just that the "PvP flag" preventing nonconsensual combat fooled people into believing that it didn't.  Camping uberspawns and cockblocking trials aren't that much different than ganking newbies in the Shire.  Both negatively impact another player's gameplay and are just as open to abuse.  Both pit players against each other without mutual consent.

I like the idea of PvP in MEO, but I'm not so sure I'd like it in practice.  MEO is taking the cowards way out, though.  They could at least have a PvP server and try the concept out, working through the gameplay issues in beta or even after launch.

[Hoax]

1.  Imagine all the faggotry that will come from the names of most pc's alone (XLeggopwnz, Frudo, GrandALF, ect ect ect)

2.  Imagine all the fucktard elves running around (you know they will be a playable race)

3.  Imagine not being able to kill any of them...

Tell me thats NOT griefing.

[Roac]

But at least those evil fucking pk'ers wont rape me because they are all social degenerates with a hard-on for destroying happiness!!

That concept of PvP was shown to be stupid from UO, and which anyone who has ever MUD'd knew was stupid.  Shadowbane showed that PvP was entirely possible, with a few tweaks to how the system works (problem SB had/has is with zerg NvN city warfare, not solitary PKs).  WoW is doing well with their PvP servers, and even Everquest has hostile servers.  Hell, the only MMOG more carebear than Everquest is Fluffy Bunny Parade.  Puzzle Pirates even has PvP (is really all about PvP, in its own way).

And MEO thinks that taking that feature off the table entirely is a good idea?  Huh?  Making that kind of statement without a real serious explanation why, as well as some other systems they intend to include to replace it, was a big mistake IMO.  Maybe they have some whizbang ideas that they don't want to talk about, but no way should they have made that kind of statement without being ready to talk about them.

[Khaldun]

I already had my say about MEO Online a while back:

http://www.swarthmore.edu/SocSci/tburke1/perma32404.html : Middle Earth Online: A Prediction

I see no reason (yet) to change my expectations. Not unless Turbine is vastly more specific at a much earlier date that they're going to do something incredibly innovative with this license. The thing that Star Wars: Galaxies taught us is that a popular license is more of a liability than an aid in developing a more-or-less traditional MMOG, even one that is more a "virtual world" than a whack-a-mole the way SWG is. It's a liability (not even counting a busybody like George Lucas) because it raises expectations about being a part of a beloved fiction that a standard MMOG design not only can't satisfy but actively shits on. In fact, SWG is worse off being a "virtual world" design because its virtual world is nothing like the fiction that it sets out to represent.

In this case, as just about everyone here notes, that's even more likely to be true.

The time frame is wrong. I'd set the game well into the Fourth Age, after the death of Aragorn. Then you can still use the setting--hobbits, various kinds of humans, dwarves. You can introduce new elements without turning everyone's stomach. There's still plenty of stories to tell: the reclaiming of Moria, battles to take back other underground regions like the Misty Mountains or the mountains of the far North; Dol Guldur could still be a scary place; Mordor could still serve as the endgame location--in the books, unlike the movies, the place itself doesn't fall into a chasm, and it's not as if Gondor was going to be able to clean it all out in a week or two. There would still be spiders in Mirkwood. The players could travel to Far Harad--maybe Gondor tries to extend its power there. The players could travel into the East, about which we know little, though Saruman once mentions "Five Wizards', of whom we know only of three--maybe the other two are in the far East, up to something?  In the books, the Mouth of Sauron doesn't get his head cut off--who knows what happens to him? Sauron was somebody's flunky once, too--maybe the Mouth moves up to the big leagues.

If you want to set the game during the LOTR time frame, or between the Hobbit and LOTR, then the design will just have to be flatly very very different than the norm. Like others, I'll puke if I log in and there's a bunch of elves running around, or if everybody's casting fireballs right and left.

[Mesozoic]

Yeah, exactly.  EQ did have open, nonconsensual PvP.  It's just that the "PvP flag" preventing nonconsensual combat fooled people into believing that it didn't.  Camping uberspawns and cockblocking trials aren't that much different than ganking newbies in the Shire.  Both negatively impact another player's gameplay and are just as open to abuse.  Both pit players against each other without mutual consent.

Thats a re-definition of the term that makes almost any player interaction potentially "PvP."  When we use the term here, we are talking about combat between players.  Watering the term down will only force us to make up a new term. 

And that would negatively impact me.

[Sky]

I can't play an orc and kill players with mispeeled elf names?

Too bad I can do that in WoW.

Why would I play MEO again? The limitations of the license (seen in SWG) mean the only fun thing would be pvp between factions, since you're not going to be any kind of 'hero'. SWG leads by example in fucking that up, MEO isn't even go to make the attempt.

S. T. U. P. I. D. Your setting is a WAR. If you don't want players fighting each other, why not make your setting a basket weaving class? "I want to fight things, but other players are way too smart. Let me fight a rock, or perhaps a small stream." PvP != ganking != unconsentual (even via zoning or whatnot) != grief play. 2 are player-driven bad behaviour and one is bad coding. So go ahead and remove the whole system.

I'll feel bad when this dev team gets the axe, too.

[Hoax]

Thusly our predictions of too much magic and everyone being stupidly named hobbits and elves has come to pass...

But fear not!  At least you'll be able to group with orcs and have them tank!

Toss another one on the "dont remind me about it" pile...

"Will there be assholes who name themselves ROFLgolas?  Absolutely.  Would ganking them in PvP stop them from playing?  No"

Would it make the game worth playing? Definately, I would play just to grief the shit out of those dickheads...

[Mesozoic]

Having no PvP does not mean that there is no conflict, or that the players have to fight rocks and streams.  It means that The Bad Guys are AI.  Which to me is completely consistent with the abject, de-humanized evil of the license.  What role would an orc play in MEO?  Fodder. 

Will there be assholes who name themselves ROFLgolas?  Absolutely.  Would ganking them in PvP stop them from playing?  No.