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Author Topic: Baldur's Gate 3  (Read 20543 times)
Sky
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Reply #35 on: June 02, 2020, 03:39:37 PM

We used to run early levels are more of an rp theme with very light combat (town is haunted by a single skeleton, for instance). Most of the xp was from exploration and dialogue/story stuff.

I've only ever played 1st edition, though I did use a lot of 2nd ed stuff adapted back. My first D&D was the original basic set.

For the guys that liked combat only (self-proclaimed macho men aka fragile egos), we would run higher level stuff (and usually stick to modules so nobody had to get offended by thinking too much).

jgsugden
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Reply #36 on: June 02, 2020, 05:41:39 PM

Is it truly round by round turn-based combat, or is it 'spam spacebar every 4 seconds' pause bullshit?
It is real time until you elect to enter round combat.  Then, everyone on your side goes, then everyone on the monster side goes.  You can choose to enter this 'round combat' whenever you want, which will make navigating certain types of traps easier.

2020 will be the year I gave up all hope.
Khaldun
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Reply #37 on: June 02, 2020, 08:53:33 PM

I think that's the big thing--you have to run the early levels like a Scooby-Doo adventure, whereas I think most people have in mind Bilbo Baggins dealing with trolls without remembering that he's a level 1 burglar in a party of high-level dwarven fighters and a super-high level wizard. It's got to be story-forward and the situations where characters are going turn-by-turn doing stuff have to be really minimal.

That said, the imbalance in basic D&D between early-level fighters (utterly necessary as damage absorbers) and late-level everything else is a basic design flaw and a lot of Western rpgs (computer and pnp) got stuck on it.
Reg
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Reply #38 on: June 02, 2020, 09:38:26 PM

Whoa, I guess it's AD@D First Edition I've been playing all these years.
jgsugden
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Reply #39 on: June 02, 2020, 10:29:20 PM

I think that's the big thing--you have to run the early levels like a Scooby-Doo adventure, whereas I think most people have in mind Bilbo Baggins dealing with trolls without remembering that he's a level 1 burglar in a party of high-level dwarven fighters and a super-high level wizard. It's got to be story-forward and the situations where characters are going turn-by-turn doing stuff have to be really minimal.

That said, the imbalance in basic D&D between early-level fighters (utterly necessary as damage absorbers) and late-level everything else is a basic design flaw and a lot of Western rpgs (computer and pnp) got stuck on it.
Yeah - have you played 5th edition?

The balance between the classes is a lot closer than you describe, and in many ways is reversed.  A 20th level wizard can cast meteor swarm and deal about 140 damage to anything in a large area. A 20th level fighter may deal 250 hit points of damage to a single target.  There are a lot of mechanics that make it harder and harder for powerful wizards to impact their foes (legendary resistance, the prevalence of damage type resistance) while they buffed the weapon classes a lot.  The wizard is a master of a breadth of abilities at high levels, but the fighters, paladins and their ilk are the heavy hitters. 

And your comment about Scooby Doo adventures seems to imply that low level play can't have in-depth storylines or broad power dynamics present.  Frankly, if that is a problem, the DM needs to learn a bit more about how to run a great game.  Go listen to Season 2 of Critical Role for an example where they is not the case.  And before you toss around the cliché that it is not real D&D - D&D takes a variety of forms.  That game is being run substantially how it was before the streaming, and is not too far off of what I've tried to do for decades. 

If you do not want turn by turn, picking a game that attempts to implement a version of D&D is perhaps not the right game for you - but a lot of people will like it. 

2020 will be the year I gave up all hope.
Mosesandstick
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Reply #40 on: June 03, 2020, 02:19:37 AM

It's interesting that they've gone the real-time by default route, considering that 5e combat doesn't usually last many turns. Combat can be an issue at lower levels, maybe the ideal thing to do is handwave it and just level characters very quickly initially, especially to level 2.
jgsugden
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Reply #41 on: June 03, 2020, 12:02:27 PM

I believe the assumption is that you'll switch to round by round for every combat.  Trying to control multiple PCs with different abilities in real time may be unreasonable.  However, in a multiplayer game, a PC in one map might be real time while a PC on another map might be in round by round.

2020 will be the year I gave up all hope.
Sky
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Reply #42 on: June 03, 2020, 01:32:15 PM

Is it truly round by round turn-based combat, or is it 'spam spacebar every 4 seconds' pause bullshit?
It is real time until you elect to enter round combat.  Then, everyone on your side goes, then everyone on the monster side goes.  You can choose to enter this 'round combat' whenever you want, which will make navigating certain types of traps easier.
Really? No roll for initiative or turn queues? Lazy.

Mosesandstick
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Reply #43 on: June 03, 2020, 03:03:41 PM

I believe the assumption is that you'll switch to round by round for every combat.  Trying to control multiple PCs with different abilities in real time may be unreasonable.  However, in a multiplayer game, a PC in one map might be real time while a PC on another map might be in round by round.

That's interesting about the MP functionality (though I'm only interested in SP).
jgsugden
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Reply #44 on: June 03, 2020, 06:21:33 PM

Is it truly round by round turn-based combat, or is it 'spam spacebar every 4 seconds' pause bullshit?
It is real time until you elect to enter round combat.  Then, everyone on your side goes, then everyone on the monster side goes.  You can choose to enter this 'round combat' whenever you want, which will make navigating certain types of traps easier.
Really? No roll for initiative or turn queues? Lazy.
There is an initiative roll, but it is side initiative.  Not lazy.  Intentional.

They talk about why they do it - to speed up the game compared to OS2 (allowing you to move everything then the enemy to move everything takes less total thinking time for the human side - and apparently, in multiplayer the humans can all go simultaneously), and to allow PCs to coordinate (fighter pushed the enemy into position for the wizard to fireball).  

A discussion on how this upgrades on DOS and incorporates D&D core mechanics.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2020, 10:14:00 AM by jgsugden »

2020 will be the year I gave up all hope.
Sky
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Reply #45 on: June 04, 2020, 01:26:48 PM

Yes, thinking is bad.

DevilsAdvocate25
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Reply #46 on: June 04, 2020, 01:55:14 PM

It's interesting that they've gone the real-time by default route, considering that 5e combat doesn't usually last many turns. Combat can be an issue at lower levels, maybe the ideal thing to do is handwave it and just level characters very quickly initially, especially to level 2.

BG2 combat was real time. You could select an option to pause the game when combat started and then choose to play turn by turn, but if you didn't, your characters all ran around and did their attacks without your assistance.
Mosesandstick
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Reply #47 on: June 04, 2020, 03:39:05 PM

Mmm, I know, but I was wondering considering the low number of turns common in 5E why turn-based wouldn't be a better option, apart from historical consistency or audience expectations. And turn based is supposed to be Larian's bread and butter? I've not played D:OS2 (or 1) yet.
jgsugden
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Reply #48 on: June 04, 2020, 04:37:55 PM

Yes, thinking is bad.
I was not disappointed watching it in the preview gameplay.

You always have the option of walking away now and never playing it.  Not much point coming here is you've already decided it is crap.

2020 will be the year I gave up all hope.
Ruvaldt
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Reply #49 on: June 04, 2020, 06:20:46 PM

Not much point coming here is you've already decided it is crap.

You've been on f13 long enough to know that's not how it works around here.

"For a long time now I have tried simply to write the best I can. Sometimes I have good luck and write better than I can." - Ernest Hemingway
Sky
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Reply #50 on: June 05, 2020, 09:18:59 AM

Not much point coming here is you've already decided it is crap.

You've been on f13 long enough to know that's not how it works around here.
No, it's a fair point. I give people shit for sticking around in threads for games I enjoy just to rag on them. Sorry!

jgsugden
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Reply #51 on: June 05, 2020, 08:36:34 PM

Not much point coming here is you've already decided it is crap.

You've been on f13 long enough to know that's not how it works around here.
Look, I've given feedback on the upper left hand corner enough.

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2020 will be the year I gave up all hope.
Cyrrex
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Reply #52 on: June 06, 2020, 04:35:47 AM

Not much point coming here is you've already decided it is crap.

You've been on f13 long enough to know that's not how it works around here.
No, it's a fair point. I give people shit for sticking around in threads for games I enjoy just to rag on them. Sorry!

It is all fair game and expected to a point, but yeah, at some point just ragging on a game for no reason becomes dickish.  That’s what the Star Wars threads are for!

"...maybe if you cleaned the piss out of the sunny d bottles under your desks and returned em, you could upgrade you vid cards, fucken lusers.." - Grunk
jgsugden
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Reply #53 on: June 06, 2020, 12:45:03 PM

For those that care - whatever announcement was planned for this weekend has been pushed a week in honor of BLM.  The event where it was going to be released is pushed that one week and being replaced by a livestream on June 7 highlighting Black contributions in the game industry. 

2020 will be the year I gave up all hope.
jgsugden
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Reply #54 on: October 06, 2020, 11:52:28 AM

Early Access is today, for anyone interested.  Starting at 1 PM Eastern / 10 AM Pacific.

2020 will be the year I gave up all hope.
Korachia
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Reply #55 on: October 06, 2020, 12:02:51 PM

So much of my coming free time will be spend on this!
Cyrrex
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Reply #56 on: October 06, 2020, 12:21:04 PM

Yeah, I am definitely buying this.  I think Steam is getting slammed, my transaction is stuck.

"...maybe if you cleaned the piss out of the sunny d bottles under your desks and returned em, you could upgrade you vid cards, fucken lusers.." - Grunk
jgsugden
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Reply #57 on: October 06, 2020, 12:48:55 PM

Yeah, I am definitely buying this.  I think Steam is getting slammed, my transaction is stuck.
I got the dreaded "you've tried to purchase too many times, so sit on your thumbs for a few hours" message.  I'll have to wait until this evening.  It may clear in the next 30 to 120 minutes, but I'm going to be tied up.

2020 will be the year I gave up all hope.
Cyrrex
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Reply #58 on: October 06, 2020, 01:10:48 PM

Mine was listed as Pending, but then it disappeared.  Re-attempted and the transaction when through no problem.

"...maybe if you cleaned the piss out of the sunny d bottles under your desks and returned em, you could upgrade you vid cards, fucken lusers.." - Grunk
Mosesandstick
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Reply #59 on: October 06, 2020, 01:55:48 PM

I'm really interested to see what you folks think of this. After playing Divinity:OS 2 I'm not sure that Larian is the best fit.
jgsugden
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Reply #60 on: October 06, 2020, 02:23:35 PM

I'm really interested to see what you folks think of this. After playing Divinity:OS 2 I'm not sure that Larian is the best fit.
D:OS was their attempt to do D&D without the license, so I get the hesitation.  However, this time around they not only had the license, but they also had WotC working with them to make a fairly authentic 5E translation.  From the preview videos I have seen, I am excited to give it a try … in a few hours when I get a chance and the download is finished.

2020 will be the year I gave up all hope.
koro
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Reply #61 on: October 06, 2020, 06:47:44 PM

Impressions so far:

1. It is extremely buggy and crash-prone. That is to be expected.
2. The UI is vastly improved from the PAX gameplay demo earlier in the year. It's a bit on the cluttered side, but it's better than looking exactly like D:OS2.
3. Graphically it looks fantastic. A big step up from their previous titles, and the in-game cinematics are solid.
4. It still has more emphasis on Original Sin-style environmental shenanigans than I'd prefer, but at least I haven't seen any conspicuously-placed explosive barrels in the middle of the wilderness yet.
5. The companions seem fun from the little I've played so far. I want to see some of the non-asshole ones soon though.
6. The camera is a nightmare that I am having to consciously fight at all times. This is the third Larian game in a row I've had this problem with, so I don't foresee it being fixed.

Early Access has satisfied all but one of my concerns, but that concern is a big one:

Based on the intro and the interactions I've had with companions so far, it is looking increasingly likely that the game's story is going to be in the same vein as D:OS2: your player character has little to no personal story or stakes beyond Immediate Problem That Must Be Addressed unless you choose one of the companions to be your protagonist (that is not an option at this stage of Early Access, but the UI elements for it are there). If this is the case throughout the whole game, I will be monumentally disappointed almost to the point of it being a total deal-breaker. I don't want my character to be a complete blank slate who sprung forth from the head of Zeus the moment I hit New Game - even BG1 gives you just enough vague details to establish you as a person with a history prior to the start of the game - and I certainly don't want to be some passive vehicle who is only there to see the stories of my companions through.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2020, 06:49:50 PM by koro »
jgsugden
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Reply #62 on: October 06, 2020, 07:02:34 PM

Yeah, this is definitely a pretty early beta test version.  Lots of graphics issues and control issues, and the storyline options are pretty weak so far for the 'build your own' PC.  You'll likely be best off running the prebuilds for the first time you really play the game.


2020 will be the year I gave up all hope.
Phildo
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Reply #63 on: October 06, 2020, 07:43:56 PM

That's how I remember DOS II, you definitely got more story by playing the pre-built characters.
Count Nerfedalot
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Reply #64 on: October 06, 2020, 09:02:17 PM

Unlike most sites, a reviewer on Ars Technica really rips this one apart. Some of his beef is nitpicky complaints about it basically being too faithful to 5e mechanics, but the vast majority of his points are about style and substance. According to him, unless you are interested in playing an evil (or at best amoral) and despised asshole in a grimdark world with an asshat/incompetent DM and a lot of really ugly grimdark no-win situations, this incarnation of Baldur's Gate might not be for you.

I'm really jonesing for a good classic-style fantasy RPG with modern production standards so had high hopes for this one, but it's not looking so good.  Possibly this is a slanted and largely inaccurate portrayal due to Early Access limitations and/or reviewer ignorance or bias, but my hopes are fading.

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koro
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Reply #65 on: October 06, 2020, 09:12:05 PM

Larian have said they frontloaded the Early Access with some of the jerkass companions to get them some visibility, and likely encourage the players to try out the more amoral/evil stuff to get it tested. I imagine that's what's causing a lot of the bad vibes at the moment.

That Ars review is silly.
Khaldun
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Reply #66 on: October 06, 2020, 09:40:55 PM

I gotta say that sounds a bit like "there's a magic patch coming later" logic. I cannot imagine why any RPG designer would frontload jerkass/evil characters and grim/evil plots in a game that wasn't built around that (like Tyranny, etc). Would any of you have kept playing a Bioware game where your first playthrough required you to play Evil Shep etc? In most western RPGs, the evil playthrough is what you do on replay, unless it's an especially well-implemented branching system with a more subtle idea of evil/jerkass than the usual.
koro
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Reply #67 on: October 06, 2020, 11:11:23 PM

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I dunno how much Larian adds/changes during their early access stuff, all I know is what Larian have said and that I've acquired all the party members on the title screen and they're all pretty evil, except for the Wizard who is just as jackass.
Velorath
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Reply #68 on: October 06, 2020, 11:18:00 PM

Larian have said they frontloaded the Early Access with some of the jerkass companions to get them some visibility, and likely encourage the players to try out the more amoral/evil stuff to get it tested. I imagine that's what's causing a lot of the bad vibes at the moment.

That Ars review is silly.

Dude can only “review” what’s there. Not what might be coming.
Goumindong
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Reply #69 on: October 07, 2020, 02:16:30 AM

Is it truly round by round turn-based combat, or is it 'spam spacebar every 4 seconds' pause bullshit?
It is real time until you elect to enter round combat.  Then, everyone on your side goes, then everyone on the monster side goes.  You can choose to enter this 'round combat' whenever you want, which will make navigating certain types of traps easier.
Really? No roll for initiative or turn queues? Lazy.
this is kind of late but we have new information.

One of the biggest pains in modern turn based RPG is how long turns take. Playing (and replaying) when you have interspersed turns can take absolutely forever.

Wasteland 3 did the same thing BGIII is doing and it made playing it compared to wasteland 2, on functionally the same system/mechanics, far far better. Side based initiative let’s players move/plan/select as animations are being done and lets the enemies movement/attack phase occur simultaneously in animation.

There are definitely downsides (combat is swingy, it’s hard to balance for ideal difficulty) but the upsides are turns that take half the time as normal
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