Star Wars 9 : The Rise of Skywalker

[Goumindong]

Maybe he just did that out of personal distaste for Johnson's film. Who knows.

Or maybe Abrams did it cause Johnson did it to his film.

Uhh no? TLJ picked up right where TFA left off.

Mad about Sad Luke?(SLuke from now on). Han Solo tells the main characters in TFA that Sad Luke was a thing. Straight up said he was in self exile

Mad about the duration of the film with Rey being trained in short amount of time? TFA both said that the first order would attack their base right after they finished the attack on the starkiller base(this done to give the attack stakes) and also ended with Rey on SLukes planet!

Mad about casino planet? Well too bad casino planet is a necessary arc for Finn. Because he doesnt get one in the first movie (he starts having wanted to run away from the FO and only goes back to help Rey run away from the FO)

Mad about Holdo? Well fuck you female resistance generals wear dresses since fucking Star Wars.

Almost certainly things were planned all the way till RoS until jj and corporate listened to the hate mob. TLJ continued from the threads TFA left. The movies had a clear thematic construction with each one focusing on one of the big three (Hans movie is TFA, Lukes movie was TLJ, leia would have gotten RoS) as a send off to both the character and actors. (Ford getting his one movie deal was a nice touch)

TLJ didnt even do badly (more or less every second film in a trilogy does worse ESB made roughly the same ratio from Star Wars (1.4x ESB) as TLJ did from TFA(1.54x TLJ) and Star Wars was a far superior movie in a far less competition for the successor in an era of far higher inflation. (Similar ballyhoos have been made about home sales when second parters also see huge drop offs as people wait for the box set and also there has been a full halving of the physical media sales over the last 5 years because streaming won)

TLJ is great. Best star wars in a long damn time. Could have done without the prank call though.

[Riggswolfe]

I can't take anyone seriously who says TLJ was great especially when combined with the casino was necessary for Finn's arc. I really don't know what happened to Rian Johnson when he made this movie but something clearly did. Maybe he didn't have enough time to work on it or something. But what he wrote was mostly pretty damn bad. Prequel level bad. Attack of the Clones bad.

[IainC]

<words>

How are you so consistently wrong on so many topics? I really am struggling to think of anyone who's calibrated to magnetic wrong as precisely as you.

[Goumindong]

I can't take anyone seriously who says TLJ was great especially when combined with the casino was necessary for Finn's arc. I really don't know what happened to Rian Johnson when he made this movie but something clearly did. Maybe he didn't have enough time to work on it or something. But what he wrote was mostly pretty damn bad. Prequel level bad. Attack of the Clones bad.

Finn ends TFA not being a rebel and still wanting to run away. He needs an impetus to both push him off the fence (hence the casino where we meet the people who are living it up on the fence and the pain they bring others) and then to make sure that he onows that hate leads to the dark side. They could have done something else sure. But it cant be with the resistace or first order else we have the same situation as he has had before that doesnt get him off the fence. This doesnt have to be a casino planet fine but it does have to be something. (There is also some intentional force discussion going on where both escapes are a result of following the animals)

If there is a fault there is the pacing, not the writing. The sequence doesnt need to end with an action scene. But it does need to end with them having picked up DJ so they can reject him later.

[Jeff Kelly]

<words>

How are you so consistently wrong on so many topics? I really am struggling to think of anyone who's calibrated to magnetic wrong as precisely as you.

You called?

[Jeff Kelly]

Die Hard Star Wars fans are a more rabid fan base than any group of pre teen WB drama shippers or Frozen fan girls could ever be.

[Threash]

I only see "rabid" come from one side of this discussion and it certainly doesn't seem to be from the ones that liked it.

[Jeff Kelly]

Is there any other fan base where people get annoyed and outright angry with someone for liking something?

“You’re wrong for liking TFA and here’s why, assface!”

[Goumindong]

Does anyone think TFA was particularly bad? Its got some JJisms but they dont overwhelm the film. Solidly medicore. Well better than medicore, it just doesnt do anything particularly interesting and so its kinda forgettable

[BobtheSomething]

Does anyone think TFA was particularly bad? Its got some JJisms but they dont overwhelm the film. Solidly medicore. Well better than medicore, it just doesnt do anything particularly interesting and so its kinda forgettable

Yes.  It was as bad as any of the prequels, just in a different way.  As much as TLJ was a terrible Star Wars movie, it was at least competent in some basics, whereas TFA felt like some one who had seen a movie once trying to make a movie without understanding what makes a movie work.  If not for the talented cast and crew working around Abrams rather than with him, it would be a total disaster.  TFA is basically a showcase for production value rather than a movie.  TLJ at least works as some non-SW sci fi movie on the same level as Chronicles of Riddick or Flash Gordon.

[Rendakor]

Does anyone think TFA was particularly bad? Its got some JJisms but they dont overwhelm the film. Solidly medicore. Well better than medicore, it just doesnt do anything particularly interesting and so its kinda forgettable

Yes.  It was as bad as any of the prequels, just in a different way.  As much as TLJ was a terrible Star Wars movie, it was at least competent in some basics, whereas TFA felt like some one who had seen a movie once trying to make a movie without understanding what makes a movie work.  If not for the talented cast and crew working around Abrams rather than with him, it would be a total disaster.  TFA is basically a showcase for production value rather than a movie.  TLJ at least works as some non-SW sci fi movie on the same level as Chronicles of Riddick or Flash Gordon.

I feel the complete opposite of this. TFA was fine as a popcorn movie, TLJ actively undermined TFA and had no place existing in the middle of a trilogy.

[eldaec]

Does anyone think TFA was particularly bad? Its got some JJisms but they dont overwhelm the film. Solidly medicore. Well better than medicore, it just doesnt do anything particularly interesting and so its kinda forgettable

On a rewatch, everything after Jakku is boring with the exception of Kylo and Han Solo on the bridge.

Jakku is good though.

On a first watch only the green planet in the middle was properly boring.

TLJ I have no issues with as a film on its own.

Where all three films have real issues, is as part of a world building canon, because all of them see their own story as bigger than the world they are in. In that sense they are more operatic than the other star wars films. The only thing that matters to these films or is visible in them is the four main characters and the spectacle of their plot. My favourite single example of this is the Finn - Phasma relationship, Phasma is an unremarkable infantry captain who just keeps showing up everywhere and apparently in charge of almost everything. There is no sense in which we take our first steps into a wider world.

This is arguably unfair on TLJ which tries to do more, but isn't very successful in doing so.

But what they definitely do not do is leave a sequel era open to the imagination and to further works the way that both the original and prequel trilogies do.

JJA star wars is a bit like the late GoT seasons, I still enjoyed them as a spectacle but only when I go in knowing the limitations of the directors and writers involved.

[Khaldun]

TFA is fine as an attempt to continue onto the end zone after two fumbles and lost yardage in the previous play series. It didn't really move the ball forward but it got everybody's heads clear and out of a panic mode after the previous disaster.

I don't deny that the narrative line of TLJ is an overlabored mess but the work it's doing with world-building, with character building, and with setting a new course forward out of this last trilogy is fantastic and what Star Wars absolutely needed. Luke's last act is one of the great attempts to tell the story of a hero after his labors (the others being Dark Knight Returns and Robin and Marian). It's really smart and interesting and so very right. TLJ tried to give Poe an actual character arc (whereas Rise of Skywalker decides to just tell us 'oh he had a past life as Han Solo, that's what he is, the new Han Solo, really". It tried to figure out who Finn actually is--and take seriously that he was a person who just wanted to get away from it all. It tried to think about whether the struggle against fascism takes more than just having plucky heroes and desperate plans. It tried to think of a new thing to do with the bad guy and the good guy.

It would have been better frankly for that to be the idea from the first movie, but in some sense I get why you want to clear the field first and then make some new moves. That's why I loathe Rise of Skywalker so very much. It fatally combines cowardice with narrative incompetence and then pisses cynicism over the mix. Rise of Skywalker isn't trying to move the ball downfield: it's the coaches deciding the season is over and they're going to throw the game and hope to get a good draft pick next season. It's a gutless piece of trash. At least TLJ was trying to think its way towards some new storytelling beats.

[Riggswolfe]

I can't take anyone seriously who says TLJ was great especially when combined with the casino was necessary for Finn's arc. I really don't know what happened to Rian Johnson when he made this movie but something clearly did. Maybe he didn't have enough time to work on it or something. But what he wrote was mostly pretty damn bad. Prequel level bad. Attack of the Clones bad.

Finn ends TFA not being a rebel and still wanting to run away. He needs an impetus to both push him off the fence (hence the casino where we meet the people who are living it up on the fence and the pain they bring others) and then to make sure that he onows that hate leads to the dark side. They could have done something else sure. But it cant be with the resistace or first order else we have the same situation as he has had before that doesnt get him off the fence. This doesnt have to be a casino planet fine but it does have to be something. (There is also some intentional force discussion going on where both escapes are a result of following the animals)

If there is a fault there is the pacing, not the writing. The sequence doesnt need to end with an action scene. But it does need to end with them having picked up DJ so they can reject him later.

The writing is just plain bad. I understood Finn's arc. I understood Poe's arc. But neither was handled competently. Finn's arc just sort of meanders around and all he really learns is the galaxy has some terrible people in it and you shouldn't trust anyone. Oh, and also you should do whatever it takes to support the Resistance, except put yourself in danger. It's better to let everyone in that base die and the Resistance get wiped out as opposed to you doing whatever it takes to stop it. Because...uhh...love or something? Poe's arc is just as problematic because he is supposed to be taught what it means to lead and put others first. But the person left to teach him while Leah is in a coma is the worst kind of leader imaginable. It causes me pain to type that because I love Laura Dern but her character was just horribly written. Holdo is only tolerable because Laura Dern rose above the writing when she could.

Ironically, for as much shit as TFA gets for being A New Hope rehash, TLJ is a rehash of ESB by someone who only read the summary on the back of an old VHS tape and didn't really understand how any of it works. "Ok, so split the heroes up. Check. Make one hero learn some lessons. Check. Go to a casino in the clouds? OOOOOO. I'll put it on a planet. Check! At-AT fight on a planet covered in white stuff. OOOOO I'll have it have red stuff underneath and put it at the end of the movie after I've killed off most of the good guys and the supposed threat of the bad guys and let them be led by the tortured man-child whose arc was clearly never intended to go here!"

[HaemishM]

To me, TFA was fine as an homage to the original Star Wars with some decent hooks for future stories to build on, but as a standalone piece was mostly forgettable. It fits right in JJA's ouevre as technically competent, visually interesting and with enough bare bones of a plot to sequelize. TLJ was a mess - it tried to ignore many of the interesting hooks from TFA but take them in directions no one would expect (admirable) but it wasn't executed particularly well. The best parts of TLJ were also the best parts of ROS - the Force conversations between Ren and Rey. Again, TLJ had some visually interesting moments, particularly the salt planet and the hyperspace ramming. It's story ideas might have been interesting but they didn't feel particularly cohesive with the rest of the Star Wars movies, almost as if they were trying to stake out a new trilogy in the middle of another one. The casino planet and war profiteering subplots might of themselves have made an interesting exploration of a different part of the Star Wars universe but they didn't feel like a good fit for a pointless subplot in the middle movie of a trilogy, nor was there enough time or meat for them to be an actual interesting plot. The overarching theme of TLJ seemed one of constant failure - every one from the villains to the heroes failed at what they were trying to do. The other plot theme, that of the Force being a random, universal blessing that didn't restrict itself to heredity was also an interesting theme that was immediately ignored by JJA in ROS.

ROS was just spectacle wrapped around fan wank and fetch quests, a movie of bullet points on a Powerpoint presentation, each bullet point representing an audience type that either needed to be re-wooed or a new audience to be marketed to. It was a terrible movie as a result, pretty but ultimately stupid and pointless.

[Khaldun]

Let me say that I have special hatred reserved for Abrams (and here I think the suits') insistence on reverting the Force to being something that only a special lineage can inherit in strength. It is 1000% against the pseudo-Buddhist stuff Lucas was cribbing from in ANH and it is really gross in its implications. The galaxy SHOULD overthrow the fucking Jedi AND Sith: they're essentially two lines of hereditary nobility/X-Men mutants who keep blowing up planets, lopping off arms, appointing themselves police. If on the other hand the Force connects all living things and all living things can learn to feel it or be appreciative of it--and its favors are not bestowed by heredity--then hating people who wield the Force is like hating life itself. It plays to the absolute worse "fans are slans" tendencies among SF/fantasy fans, the nurturing of a secret feeling that the fan is the destined one, the noble in waiting, etc.--it's the intersection point between Randian libertarianism and SF fandom.

[Surlyboi]

Can we just take a second to appreciate the fact that
As much of a fan service, 'let's not upset the inches any more than we already have" shitshow this flick is, I do like the little bit of headcanon that's happening there for me.

[Goumindong]

I can't take anyone seriously who says TLJ was great especially when combined with the casino was necessary for Finn's arc. I really don't know what happened to Rian Johnson when he made this movie but something clearly did. Maybe he didn't have enough time to work on it or something. But what he wrote was mostly pretty damn bad. Prequel level bad. Attack of the Clones bad.

Finn ends TFA not being a rebel and still wanting to run away. He needs an impetus to both push him off the fence (hence the casino where we meet the people who are living it up on the fence and the pain they bring others) and then to make sure that he onows that hate leads to the dark side. They could have done something else sure. But it cant be with the resistace or first order else we have the same situation as he has had before that doesnt get him off the fence. This doesnt have to be a casino planet fine but it does have to be something. (There is also some intentional force discussion going on where both escapes are a result of following the animals)

If there is a fault there is the pacing, not the writing. The sequence doesnt need to end with an action scene. But it does need to end with them having picked up DJ so they can reject him later.

The writing is just plain bad. I understood Finn's arc. I understood Poe's arc. But neither was handled competently. Finn's arc just sort of meanders around and all he really learns is the galaxy has some terrible people in it and you shouldn't trust anyone. Oh, and also you should do whatever it takes to support the Resistance, except put yourself in danger. It's better to let everyone in that base die and the Resistance get wiped out as opposed to you doing whatever it takes to stop it. Because...uhh...love or something? Poe's arc is just as problematic because he is supposed to be taught what it means to lead and put others first. But the person left to teach him while Leah is in a coma is the worst kind of leader imaginable. It causes me pain to type that because I love Laura Dern but her character was just horribly written. Holdo is only tolerable because Laura Dern rose above the writing when she could.

Ironically, for as much shit as TFA gets for being A New Hope rehash, TLJ is a rehash of ESB by someone who only read the summary on the back of an old VHS tape and didn't really understand how any of it works. "Ok, so split the heroes up. Check. Make one hero learn some lessons. Check. Go to a casino in the clouds? OOOOOO. I'll put it on a planet. Check! At-AT fight on a planet covered in white stuff. OOOOO I'll have it have red stuff underneath and put it at the end of the movie after I've killed off most of the good guys and the supposed threat of the bad guys and let them be led by the tortured man-child whose arc was clearly never intended to go here!"

I dont think you understand the arcs involved. The point of the casino planet is not that some people are evil. Its that inaction causes pain as well. That running away may fix things for you but it will still hurt people and still be wrong. The point of rose saving him is that  hating makes you a villain just as much as the first order is. Rose doesnt just save him from death she saves him from the dark side. You know. Like Luke throws down his lightsaber after finishing his emotional rage out moment wherein he tries to kill his dad because he sees the darkness in him threaten his sister. Luke does this even though doing so would certainly come at the cost of his fleet and his own life. Just like he reacts with similar (but far more restrained emotion) when he learns of Bens evil.

And poes lesson isnt that “you need to learn to like lead people and put others first” but that there are alternatives to fighting. That going full violence on a problem doss not always work and can cause more pain than it solves. The second thing he learns is to trust in his friends and allies.

I think that maybe you understand the star wars less than you think.

[Velorath]

<words>

How are you so consistently wrong on so many topics? I really am struggling to think of anyone who's calibrated to magnetic wrong as precisely as you.

[HaemishM]

And poes lesson isnt that “you need to learn to like lead people and put others first” but that there are alternatives to fighting. That going full violence on a problem doss not always work and can cause more pain than it solves. The second thing he learns is to trust in his friends and allies.

Which she proves by literally killing herself and an entire goddamn star destroyer? Also to trust your allies so much that you don't let them in on your plans until it's too late to do anything to make the plan work?

Please to be sending me whatever the fuck you are smoking.

[Goumindong]

And poes lesson isnt that “you need to learn to like lead people and put others first” but that there are alternatives to fighting. That going full violence on a problem doss not always work and can cause more pain than it solves. The second thing he learns is to trust in his friends and allies.

Which she proves by literally killing herself and an entire goddamn star destroyer? Also to trust your allies so much that you don't let them in on your plans until it's too late to do anything to make the plan work?

Please to be sending me whatever the fuck you are smoking.

Why does Holdo need to trust poe?

What does Holdo prove when she jumps into the fleet? Kinda confused here.

[HaemishM]

Because Poe was the top pilot in the fleet? Also, Holdo proved the exact opposite of what you said she proved to Poe by her stunt.

[Goumindong]

Because Poe was the top pilot in the fleet? Also, Holdo proved the exact opposite of what you said she proved to Poe by her stunt.

Poe was no longer the top pilot in the fleet. He had just been demoted. And either way, Holdo isn't the example character for Poe(and also why should Holdo have to be perfect?). Holdo is the person Poe needs to trust. Leia is Poe's mentor.  

Also i am not sure what it was Holdo was supposed to prove to Poe by her stunt? I dont recall saying she proved anything to Poe with her stunt...  

Edit: well she was proving something to him but not in that sense. When poe finds out the plan he exclaims “youre a coward, youre running away!”. And her actions show that she was not running away. Made explicit in this realization by the dialog that explains it

[Riggswolfe]

I dont think you understand the arcs involved. The point of the casino planet is not that some people are evil. Its that inaction causes pain as well. That running away may fix things for you but it will still hurt people and still be wrong. The point of rose saving him is that  hating makes you a villain just as much as the first order is. Rose doesnt just save him from death she saves him from the dark side. You know. Like Luke throws down his lightsaber after finishing his emotional rage out moment wherein he tries to kill his dad because he sees the darkness in him threaten his sister. Luke does this even though doing so would certainly come at the cost of his fleet and his own life. Just like he reacts with similar (but far more restrained emotion) when he learns of Bens evil.

And poes lesson isnt that “you need to learn to like lead people and put others first” but that there are alternatives to fighting. That going full violence on a problem doss not always work and can cause more pain than it solves. The second thing he learns is to trust in his friends and allies.

I think that maybe you understand the star wars less than you think.

I do understand the arcs they were just handled incompetently. I know exactly what he was going for he just chose the most clumsy and terrible way to accomplish it.

Yes, the casino was intended to show him some stuff. Unfortunately, it mostly consisted of Rose telling him (and the audience) stuff. It was handled in the most hamfisted way possible. As for Rose saving him from the Darkside and stuff. Uh...what? He was about to ram into that giant cannon. That's not Luke striking his dad down. That's a suicide attack, the Darkside is irrelevant at that point. It also undermines everything his arc was about. "Learn to care about others and join the resistance, help us fight. WAIT! NO! NOT THAT WAY! You're more important than anyone else, wtf are you doing preparing to sacrifice yourself for them?!?! "

As for Holdo. I've heard the arguments before. She had no reason to trust Poe is the most common one. It's also asinine. A big chunk of her bridge crew rebelled because she told no one that she had a plan. Why the hell would any rational person put blind faith in a person in that scenario? You know you will all literally die and she won't tell you if she has any way out of it. That's not teaching Poe a damned thing except that the leader is always right and people need to trust them blindly, without that trust being earned in any way. It's awful writing. If your argument is that Leah is the person Poe needs to learn from there are two big problems. She didn't share the plan either, so, again, blind faith. And she spent a big chunk of the movie in a coma.

[Goumindong]

I for one definitely remember when Yoda said to Luke “Hate leads to the dark side... unless youre going to die then hate is totally OK and the dark side is totally rad” in Empire. Or when Vader was redeemed after dying consumed in hate screaming about how much he hates the emperor as he throws him down the shaft.

Or... maybe you do not understand the star wars. Finn was not sacrificing himself for others in that scene. He was doing it to cause pain to people he hated. The movie wasnt exactly subtle about it. There are five sacrifices presented in the movie, and the two that have their executors focus on destroying things rather than saving them are frowned upon.

And maybe Holdo didn't share the details of the plan because loose lips might get the information to the first order causing it to fall apart... like Poe does...(he informs DJ of the plan while on comms to rose and finn). But even if she was wrong to not share with Poe your parents should have tought you that two wrongs dont make a right.

There is also a decent enough discussion that Holdo had indeed earned it. Poe himself is impressed when she first is introduced remarking on her exploits positively.

[eldaec]

Watching Lego 2 last night it occurred to me that the JJA films are in fact live action Lego Star Wars movies taken a little too seriously.

[Riggswolfe]

I for one definitely remember when Yoda said to Luke “Hate leads to the dark side... unless youre going to die then hate is totally OK and the dark side is totally rad” in Empire. Or when Vader was redeemed after dying consumed in hate screaming about how much he hates the emperor as he throws him down the shaft.

Or... maybe you do not understand the star wars. Finn was not sacrificing himself for others in that scene. He was doing it to cause pain to people he hated. The movie wasnt exactly subtle about it. There are five sacrifices presented in the movie, and the two that have their executors focus on destroying things rather than saving them are frowned upon.

And maybe Holdo didn't share the details of the plan because loose lips might get the information to the first order causing it to fall apart... like Poe does...(he informs DJ of the plan while on comms to rose and finn). But even if she was wrong to not share with Poe your parents should have tought you that two wrongs dont make a right.

There is also a decent enough discussion that Holdo had indeed earned it. Poe himself is impressed when she first is introduced remarking on her exploits positively.

Luke is in Jedi training. Finn is not. Even if he is Force sensitive which the last movie hints very strongly at, Rose has no way of knowing it. And she didn't do what she did to save him from the Dark side. She did it so she could kiss him and tell him love is the most powerful force in the universe or something. A fine message but one that flies in the face of what the movie had been trying to teach him. Sure, Finn is super pissed in that moment, but he's also trying to save the resistance because he knows once that cannon fires it is all over.

Poe's actions are wrong sure. But they were born of desperation because as far as he and everyone he talked to knew, the plan was just to keep flying until they ran out of gas and all died. No one except maybe Leah, knew what the plan was. Speaking of lessons, when Leah finally does wake up and Poe steps out of cover to tell her why he is doing what he is doing does she explain things? Does she tell him he's wrong to mutiny and there is a plan? Nope. She shoots him. Another lesson learned. Don't trust anyone.

I'm sorry you have to contort yourself into a pretzel to make excuses for bad writing. But don't act patronizing and tell me I don't understand Star Wars. I do. I just acknowledge when the movies are bad. This is beat only by Attack of the Clones in the bad writing department and that's mostly because that godawful line about sand is so horrible.

[Goumindong]

The force is in all things, not just jedi. And guides all creatures, not just jedi. Finn isnt safe from the dark side because he isnt a jedi and Rose doesnt need to think he might be in order to save him from the it.  Did you watch any of the OT?

And Leia shooting first and explaining later? Why that would never happen.

[TheWalrus]

Poe's actions are wrong sure. But they were born of desperation because as far as he and everyone he talked to knew, the plan was just to keep flying until they ran out of gas and all died. No one except maybe Leah, knew what the plan was. Speaking of lessons, when Leah finally does wake up and Poe steps out of cover to tell her why he is doing what he is doing does she explain things? Does she tell him he's wrong to mutiny and there is a plan? Nope. She shoots him. Another lesson learned. Don't trust anyone.

I remember that time in the Corps when all my NCOs and officers were super impressed with my questions about what we were doing and why we were doing it.

[HaemishM]

It's pretty pointless to try to relitigate the shitshow that was TLJ. I will just say that while I think it was a bad movie, with a lot of really bad ideas and bad writing, at least it was trying to do SOMETHING. It was actually a better movie than ROS because ROS had no plan, no cohesive narrative, no themes, and it's best scenes were what it essentially cribbed out of TLJ (the Rey/Ren conversations).

It was still shit, though.

[Riggswolfe]

Poe's actions are wrong sure. But they were born of desperation because as far as he and everyone he talked to knew, the plan was just to keep flying until they ran out of gas and all died. No one except maybe Leah, knew what the plan was. Speaking of lessons, when Leah finally does wake up and Poe steps out of cover to tell her why he is doing what he is doing does she explain things? Does she tell him he's wrong to mutiny and there is a plan? Nope. She shoots him. Another lesson learned. Don't trust anyone.

I remember that time in the Corps when all my NCOs and officers were super impressed with my questions about what we were doing and why we were doing it.

To put it into a slightly different perspective. Let's say the Captain of a ship is sailing his ship right towards an iceberg. If the ship is not turned everyone on the ship dies. The bridge crew asks him what his plan is and he refuses to tell them. He doesn't even give them any indication he even has a plan. Should the crew blindly trust the captain or should they do the unthinkable? Poe chose the 2nd option because this is essentially the situation he is in, except worse. The entire fleet, the entire remaining members of the Resistance would die if something wasn't done and the person in command tells no one what, if anything, she will do about it. Keep in mind, a lot of the mutineers are her own bridge crew. They have no idea what the plan is and from what they can tell the plan is "we're all just going to run out of gas and die."

The force is in all things, not just jedi. And guides all creatures, not just jedi. Finn isnt safe from the dark side because he isnt a jedi and Rose doesnt need to think he might be in order to save him from the it.  Did you watch any of the OT?

And Leia shooting first and explaining later? Why that would never happen.

I did watch the OT. I remember all those times someone was about to do something and was warned "Be careful, you'll fall to the Darkside." Why, no one even goes to Kashyyyk because those wookiees are angry all the time and all of them have fallen to the darkside. Remember when Cassian Andor shot that other rebel in cold blood and immediately fell to the dark side for it? OH! Remember when that Rebel pilot almost rams his snowspeeder into the AtAt on Hoth but is warned away so he doesn't fall to the Dark side? Or when Han Solo gunned down Greedo and immediately fell to the Dark side?

In your version of Star Wars, any act of anger or rage or fear or hate would lead to the Dark side. The galaxy would be overrun with the Dark side.

[TheWalrus]

To put it into a slightly different perspective. Let's say the Captain of a ship is sailing his ship right towards an iceberg. If the ship is not turned everyone on the ship dies. The bridge crew asks him what his plan is and he refuses to tell them. He doesn't even give them any indication he even has a plan. Should the crew blindly trust the captain or should they do the unthinkable? Poe chose the 2nd option because this is essentially the situation he is in, except worse. The entire fleet, the entire remaining members of the Resistance would die if something wasn't done and the person in command tells no one what, if anything, she will do about it. Keep in mind, a lot of the mutineers are her own bridge crew. They have no idea what the plan is and from what they can tell the plan is "we're all just going to run out of gas and die."

Except in your case, you're talking about a bosun yelling about open mutiny on the deck and that shitbird would have been shot and tossed overboard. Poe wasn't part of the plan. He didn't need to know it. His only need to know was because he wanted to. He was not in the chain. He was not even a fucking pilot for the escape ships. He was going to simply be a passenger. Holdo did absolutely the right thing to keep good order and discipline, whether you like it or not. As has already been pointed out, if Dipshit McFuckstick had kept his cockholster shut and trusted that the leadership knew more than him, things would have gone swimmingly. It's only after his dumbass pride and bravado fuck absolutely everything up that he figures that out. Again, you may not like it, but that scene depicted exactly what would happen in similar circumstances.

[Riggswolfe]

To put it into a slightly different perspective. Let's say the Captain of a ship is sailing his ship right towards an iceberg. If the ship is not turned everyone on the ship dies. The bridge crew asks him what his plan is and he refuses to tell them. He doesn't even give them any indication he even has a plan. Should the crew blindly trust the captain or should they do the unthinkable? Poe chose the 2nd option because this is essentially the situation he is in, except worse. The entire fleet, the entire remaining members of the Resistance would die if something wasn't done and the person in command tells no one what, if anything, she will do about it. Keep in mind, a lot of the mutineers are her own bridge crew. They have no idea what the plan is and from what they can tell the plan is "we're all just going to run out of gas and die."

Except in your case, you're talking about a bosun yelling about open mutiny on the deck and that shitbird would have been shot and tossed overboard. Poe wasn't part of the plan. He didn't need to know it. His only need to know was because he wanted to. He was not in the chain. He was not even a fucking pilot for the escape ships. He was going to simply be a passenger. Holdo did absolutely the right thing to keep good order and discipline, whether you like it or not. As has already been pointed out, if Dipshit McFuckstick had kept his cockholster shut and trusted that the leadership knew more than him, things would have gone swimmingly. It's only after his dumbass pride and bravado fuck absolutely everything up that he figures that out. Again, you may not like it, but that scene depicted exactly what would happen in similar circumstances.

I may be remembering wrong but I think his little mutiny was joined by a big chunk of the bridge crew. IE, the people who absolutely should have known.

[IainC]

Arguing about any individual plot point in TLJ is like having a debate over whether the slightly firmer part of a turd used to be chicken or pork. It's a garbage movie that fails to pass even casual scrutiny of the plot, structure or story beats. Like, there is no part of the movie that you can apply any amount of critique to, that doesn't immediately collapse into a singualrity of shit. It's the shitception. The deeper you look, the more shit there is. Mandelbrot shit.

The movie constantly sets up situations then proceeds to utterly fuck the landing each and every time. It asks you to hold contradictory feelings about main characters. It's the 8th film in a 9 film arc and it deliberately throws away all continuity with the previous episodes.

Anyone defending this turd salad needs to have their brain put through a blender.

[Goumindong]

I did watch the OT. I remember all those times someone was about to do something and was warned "Be careful, you'll fall to the Darkside." Why, no one even goes to Kashyyyk because those wookiees are angry all the time and all of them have fallen to the darkside. Remember when Cassian Andor shot that other rebel in cold blood and immediately fell to the dark side for it? OH! Remember when that Rebel pilot almost rams his snowspeeder into the AtAt on Hoth but is warned away so he doesn't fall to the Dark side? Or when Han Solo gunned down Greedo and immediately fell to the Dark side?

In your version of Star Wars, any act of anger or rage or fear or hate would lead to the Dark side. The galaxy would be overrun with the Dark side.

Cassian Andor is both A: not in the OT. and B: did not shoot another rebel in anger.
A random rebel pilot does not suicide into an ATAT on Hoth. One gets shot and loses control of his ship.
Han Solo did not hate Greedo.

But like... its Star Wars... the world is so controlled by the dark side that it needs rebels to fight it.

I am only more convinced you don't understand what is happening in these movies. You have fundamental misunderstandings about the things that happen in them. Not even like, sub-textual misunderstandings. Flat out textual misunderstandings.