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Author Topic: Star Wars 9 : The Rise of Skywalker  (Read 122064 times)
jgsugden
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Reply #875 on: September 15, 2020, 10:34:51 AM

Continuity, handled well, is not necessary, but additive. 

Filoni has executed that well with Rebels, Clone Wars and the Mandalorian.  If you know the lore, it adds a step.  If you don't, you won't emiss anything, but may be curious enough to go back and look at it.. 

When Ahsoka, Sabine, Bridger, Jar Jar's corpse, K-2S0, Luke, Rey, Rex, or Thrawn appear, I think it will be done in a meaningful way, a respectful way, and a way that does not require any prior knowledge of the character or their stories. 

2020 will be the year I gave up all hope.
Draegan
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Reply #876 on: September 16, 2020, 03:16:30 PM

I'm just waiting for Disney to just say the Sequel Trilogy has been classified as Legends and should just be ignored.

Then you can have real writers take over and make an interesting story the brings Star Wars back to the big screen (if we still have those).
jgsugden
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Reply #877 on: September 16, 2020, 08:40:12 PM

I'm just waiting for Disney to just say the Sequel Trilogy has been classified as Legends and should just be ignored.

Then you can have real writers take over and make an interesting story the brings Star Wars back to the big screen (if we still have those).
It seems more likely that they 'd use the Time Travel options in Star Wars to undue the final trilogy... JJ it and keep it official, but just now changed.

2020 will be the year I gave up all hope.
MediumHigh
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Reply #878 on: September 16, 2020, 10:07:59 PM

I mean they'd win over half the fanbase if they did though.

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SurfD
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Reply #879 on: September 16, 2020, 11:12:35 PM

I'm just waiting for Disney to just say the Sequel Trilogy has been classified as Legends and should just be ignored.

Then you can have real writers take over and make an interesting story the brings Star Wars back to the big screen (if we still have those).
It seems more likely that they 'd use the Time Travel options in Star Wars to undue the final trilogy... JJ it and keep it official, but just now changed.
Or maybe just start the next movie off with middle aged Luke waking screaming from his bed with a Yoda Force Ghost slowly dissipating in the background while the words "one possibility, of many it is" float through his head.

Darwinism is the Gateway Science.
Velorath
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Reply #880 on: September 17, 2020, 12:02:57 AM

I'm just waiting for Disney to just say the Sequel Trilogy has been classified as Legends and should just be ignored.

Then you can have real writers take over and make an interesting story the brings Star Wars back to the big screen (if we still have those).

Can they get rid of the prequel trilogy while they're at it?

Anyhow there's no reason that a good writer couldn't come up with an interesting story, even with the sequel trilogy in place. They just need to get someone who isn't going to tread the same ground in the same general timeline, with the same conflicts and character templates.  Clone Wars tie-ins aside, Mandalorian showed that you can carve out a niche in the setting and do something interesting.
Teleku
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Reply #881 on: September 17, 2020, 03:12:21 AM

I mean, realistically at this point, you have two lore options for shows.  More random series/movies that cover everything between the prequel and the sequel trilogies, or a new trilogy set significantly after or before this time frame.  Like, at least a hundred years or more.  Next Generation this shit and start fresh.  While I'm fine with stuff like Mandalorian, if they intended to keep squeezing this IP for money, I'd rather they do that as the next big trilogy or whatever.  They are not going to magic away and redo this latest trilogy, just like HBO is not going to magic away and redo season 8 of Game of Thrones.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2020, 03:14:40 AM by Teleku »

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eldaec
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Reply #882 on: September 17, 2020, 05:14:16 AM

In the Republic, the Clone Wars, the empire, and the GCW they already have 4 incredibly solid and distinct settings.

They don't need to go forward or back in time. They don't need to do anything to sequel canon. Just pick one of the good settings and make some stories about people in that setting.

If I were Disney I'd say we're doing 5 years of products focussed on one of these time periods. Realistically the best one to do is the 30 year period of the empire. It is the least well explored and the easiest one to keep focussed on characters and to avoid galaxy shattering events.

Rebels for instance, could easily have been 3 or 4 films about the story of Lothal. Done as films it would have been different, but it would have been fine.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2020, 05:23:24 AM by eldaec »

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Draegan
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Reply #883 on: September 17, 2020, 09:30:41 AM

I don't mind the Mando stories. Their pretty great tucked into their own storyline. But that doesn't move the needle of the IP at all. Picking out a small space within the exisitng, and terrible, storyline to expand the franchise is  stupid. You have all sorts of problems with characters, timelines, ages etc. that just make that all awful.

They need to start fresh. Drop some characters super in to the past or future and start up again with a new story.

The timeline from Prequel to OT is awful. You've got a young queen marrying anakin where their age difference is quite large. You've got Obiwan an old man in the OT but a young vibrant man in the PT. People have already brought up Asohka never being mentioned anywhere and she's apparently a major character (I never watched any of the animated stuff). You've got the fucking mess of the ST that just shits on everything and doesn't make sense in any way (Do we need to get into all that shit?)

In Rogue 1 it makes the Empire look established and old but yet it's really not even 20 years old yet right? Or close to that anyway.

I dunno, bring all the pew pew and lightsaber sounds and ancient sorcerers to another time and place and start fresh. The well is polluted with awful writing.

Or you can just do like comics do and just reset the whole fucking thing and start over.
jgsugden
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Reply #884 on: September 17, 2020, 09:51:30 AM

While you can start fresh in another time period, there is no need, and you give up a lot of good when you throw out the bad. 

Rather than make some wholesale dictum about where they should set things, I'd rather they take it on a case by case basis.  If they have a great KotOR story?  Great!  If someone has a good young Yoda story?  OK!  Someone says they have a way to close out Jar-Jar and make him respectable?  I'll give Filoni/Favreau a shot, but nobody else on this one.

2020 will be the year I gave up all hope.
Draegan
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Reply #885 on: September 17, 2020, 10:06:35 AM

While you can start fresh in another time period, there is no need, and you give up a lot of good when you throw out the bad.  

Rather than make some wholesale dictum about where they should set things, I'd rather they take it on a case by case basis.  If they have a great KotOR story?  Great!  If someone has a good young Yoda story?  OK!  Someone says they have a way to close out Jar-Jar and make him respectable?  I'll give Filoni/Favreau a shot, but nobody else on this one.

That's a good idea if you just want to limp along with zero direction to the franchise and kill it after a few years.

Star Wars fans want the MCU treatment and there is no saving the current IP using the timeline in the 9 movie arc. You can keep the prequels if you really want, but you need to erase the sequels if you want to move forward with the franchise in this specific timeline.

edit:
The most brainless thing you could do to improve SW is to delete the sequals and just drop the Thrawn trilogy in to place and use the Mandalorian to introduce the storyline and bridge everything.
BobtheSomething
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Reply #886 on: September 17, 2020, 10:25:56 AM

While you can start fresh in another time period, there is no need, and you give up a lot of good when you throw out the bad. 

Rather than make some wholesale dictum about where they should set things, I'd rather they take it on a case by case basis.  If they have a great KotOR story?  Great!  If someone has a good young Yoda story?  OK!  Someone says they have a way to close out Jar-Jar and make him respectable?  I'll give Filoni/Favreau a shot, but nobody else on this one.

You have to start fresh.  You can’t move forward in a significant way if everyone knows the universe effectively ends in Rise of Skywalker.
eldaec
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Reply #887 on: September 17, 2020, 10:50:08 AM

People didn't stop making WWII films when the ending was spoiled.

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jgsugden
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Reply #888 on: September 17, 2020, 11:47:25 AM

Bob and Draegan: Mandalorian. 

It is the best Star Wars we've ever had, IMHO, and is Star Wars to the core.  It takes place after the EWOK dance and before the crap trilogy. 

You can absolutely add in amazing stories set around the steaming heaps that are the first and last trilogies of the Star Wars series without letting the crap fest get in the way.  Hell, despite how awful the last three films are collectively, I think you could still tell stories about Poe, Rey, Finn or Kylo stories that are good. 

There have been horrendously bad Spider-man comics, pretty darn bad Spider-man movies, and just ridiculously horrible Spider-man cartoons.  Is Spider-man ruined?

2020 will be the year I gave up all hope.
Draegan
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Reply #889 on: September 17, 2020, 09:26:01 PM

No one is saying that you can't have good Star Wars like Mandalorian and a few other shows tucked into their own little corner for the galaxy. But Star Wars has always been about sweeping battles of good vs. evil. Where will Star Wars be in 6-8 years with a bunch of eight 30 minute episode stories? It'll get boring after a while. You need an anchor in the franchise like MCU had Avengers.

Somehow Star Wars needs it's Tony Stark. Good fucking luck.
jgsugden
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Reply #890 on: September 17, 2020, 09:59:10 PM

No one is saying that you can't have good Star Wars like Mandalorian and a few other shows tucked into their own little corner for the galaxy. But Star Wars has always been about sweeping battles of good vs. evil.
The best movie in the series is also the only one without a massive space battle … where the climatic battle is a father and son. 
Quote
Where will Star Wars be in 6-8 years with a bunch of eight 30 minute episode stories? It'll get boring after a while. You need an anchor in the franchise like MCU had Avengers.

Somehow Star Wars needs it's Tony Stark. Good fucking luck.
Let's ask Jon Favreau.  The guy that gave us MCU Tony Stark has given us Din Djarin.  My respect for what was done in the Mandalorian and what was done in Iron Man 1 are not far off.

And you know there are incredibly shitty Tony Stark stories, right?  Any character could be written insanely good or horribly bad.  Batman was once seen as a lost cause, prior to the resurgence in the 1980s. 

They're looking to make a new and iconic story in the Star Wars universe with highly marketable characters.  I'm saying that excellent writing, casting and direction is going to be a far bigger element of the success of that attempt than whether they set it in the Old Republic, the Empire, the Republic, the New Republic, or the New Edition. 

2020 will be the year I gave up all hope.
eldaec
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Reply #891 on: September 18, 2020, 03:47:57 AM

No one is saying that you can't have good Star Wars like Mandalorian and a few other shows tucked into their own little corner for the galaxy. But Star Wars has always been about sweeping battles of good vs. evil. Where will Star Wars be in 6-8 years with a bunch of eight 30 minute episode stories? It'll get boring after a while. You need an anchor in the franchise like MCU had Avengers.

Somehow Star Wars needs it's Tony Stark. Good fucking luck.

The three original trilogy movies are epic battles of good and evil.

But the story of epic conflict isn't what star wars 'always is'. Rogue 1 isn't about the epic conflict, it is just set within it. Clone Wars is the same really. Even the OT is at least as much the specific story of Luke Han Leia and Vader as it is the story of a war.

Firefly, but star wars, would work fine.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2020, 03:51:24 AM by eldaec »

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Khaldun
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Reply #892 on: September 18, 2020, 10:49:42 AM

Look at it this way: we're all watching a show featuring a dude who is loyal to a spiritual code derived from a society of extreme warriors who continuously fought the Jedi. Who were bigger enemies to the Jedi than the Sith for most of the previous three or four centuries before The Phantom Menace.

During that entire time period, the Sith were in fact irrelevant to the galaxy for a thousand years--just two of them, off being esoteric, for centuries upon centuries. What else was going on? Jedi v. Mandalore and what else? What kept the Jedi and the Republic in check? Why by the time of TPM are there major portions of the galaxy independent of the Republic? Why are there Hutts etc.? The Nightsisters are canon now via The Clone Wars, so what other shit was going down on other planets, Force-involved or otherwise?

There's lots of room for good v. evil stories that are smaller in scale; there's lots of room to mix it up or complicate good v. evil. I think the harder problem for Star Wars that The Mandalorian is helping with is to use it as a platform for telling a wider variety of genre stories. The MCU strategy of using the variety of superhero comics to do thrillers, comic capers, teenage rom-com adventures, huge epics, etc. is going to be harder for Star Wars to do--the tonal range of SW as a property has been smaller. The Mandalorian is bringing in the feel of a western or samurai story. Solo SHOULD have been a caper film but it really wasn't anything that clear in terms of mood or tone. Rogue One was kind of a Dirty Dozen/Guns of Navarone/Eagles Dare war movie, and that worked. But it will take more effort to cram other genre templates into Star Wars, I think.
Velorath
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Reply #893 on: September 18, 2020, 11:00:20 AM

The Mandalorian is bringing in the feel of a western or samurai story.

Not exactly new since (as I'm sure has been discussed here at some point) ANH "borrowed" heavily from Hidden Fortress and Rogue One is just a remake of all the movies that have remade Seven Samurai. Wanting to be Kurosawa isn't something the Mandalorian brought in.
jgsugden
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Reply #894 on: September 18, 2020, 03:41:23 PM

The Mandalorian is bringing in the feel of a western or samurai story.
Not exactly new since (as I'm sure has been discussed here at some point) ANH "borrowed" heavily from Hidden Fortress and Rogue One is just a remake of all the movies that have remade Seven Samurai. Wanting to be Kurosawa isn't something the Mandalorian brought in.
… but it is fucking nailing it. 

2020 will be the year I gave up all hope.
Khaldun
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Reply #895 on: September 18, 2020, 05:34:05 PM

Look, the point being that The Hidden Fortress is a template for Lucas, but by ESB he's not quoting from that source material any longer. ESB and RotJ are kind of their own thing. Phantom Menace is almost a kind of weird kabuki variant. Clones and Sith I dunno what the fuck they are--they don't really have genre referents. TFA to Rise, the only referent is really "how do you make money from the IP you just bought by hiring a cynical corporate stooge director etc. (TLJ excluded, something else going on there)". It's not a genre referent.

Then Mandalorian is like "oh yeah Westerns and samurai flicks, right."
MahrinSkel
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Reply #896 on: September 18, 2020, 10:13:05 PM


Then Mandalorian is like "oh yeah Westerns and samurai flicks, right."

I think the moral here is "Dance with the one that brung ya."

--Dave

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Draegan
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Reply #897 on: September 20, 2020, 10:27:30 AM

No one is saying that you can't have good Star Wars like Mandalorian and a few other shows tucked into their own little corner for the galaxy. But Star Wars has always been about sweeping battles of good vs. evil.
The best movie in the series is also the only one without a massive space battle … where the climatic battle is a father and son. 
Quote
Where will Star Wars be in 6-8 years with a bunch of eight 30 minute episode stories? It'll get boring after a while. You need an anchor in the franchise like MCU had Avengers.

Somehow Star Wars needs it's Tony Stark. Good fucking luck.
Let's ask Jon Favreau.  The guy that gave us MCU Tony Stark has given us Din Djarin.  My respect for what was done in the Mandalorian and what was done in Iron Man 1 are not far off.

And you know there are incredibly shitty Tony Stark stories, right?  Any character could be written insanely good or horribly bad.  Batman was once seen as a lost cause, prior to the resurgence in the 1980s. 

They're looking to make a new and iconic story in the Star Wars universe with highly marketable characters.  I'm saying that excellent writing, casting and direction is going to be a far bigger element of the success of that attempt than whether they set it in the Old Republic, the Empire, the Republic, the New Republic, or the New Edition. 

When I say Tony Stark I mean Robert Downey Jr's performance he brought to the character. He fucking nailed it and anchored the whole thing. Star Wars needs that. Tough to find.

Writing and casting is always essential to a brand new story in an existing IP. The OT got away with some bad writing and story telling because of the technology and story was so new to the genre. I don't think you can create epic stories within the existing timeframe of the the skywalker saga even if you had the best writers. Setting will gi e great writers the freedom to create a good story rather than having to shove the terrible details of existing lore into their ideas.
Draegan
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Reply #898 on: September 20, 2020, 10:30:47 AM

No one is saying that you can't have good Star Wars like Mandalorian and a few other shows tucked into their own little corner for the galaxy. But Star Wars has always been about sweeping battles of good vs. evil. Where will Star Wars be in 6-8 years with a bunch of eight 30 minute episode stories? It'll get boring after a while. You need an anchor in the franchise like MCU had Avengers.

Somehow Star Wars needs it's Tony Stark. Good fucking luck.

The three original trilogy movies are epic battles of good and evil.

But the story of epic conflict isn't what star wars 'always is'. Rogue 1 isn't about the epic conflict, it is just set within it. Clone Wars is the same really. Even the OT is at least as much the specific story of Luke Han Leia and Vader as it is the story of a war.

Firefly, but star wars, would work fine.

Firefly is a cancelled TV show. Star Wars firefly is great for Disney+ and not for the big screen. Star Wars is a billion dollar franchise it needs an epic setting to house smaller scale stories.
Draegan
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Reply #899 on: September 20, 2020, 10:39:25 AM

Look at it this way: we're all watching a show featuring a dude who is loyal to a spiritual code derived from a society of extreme warriors who continuously fought the Jedi. Who were bigger enemies to the Jedi than the Sith for most of the previous three or four centuries before The Phantom Menace.

During that entire time period, the Sith were in fact irrelevant to the galaxy for a thousand years--just two of them, off being esoteric, for centuries upon centuries. What else was going on? Jedi v. Mandalore and what else? What kept the Jedi and the Republic in check? Why by the time of TPM are there major portions of the galaxy independent of the Republic? Why are there Hutts etc.? The Nightsisters are canon now via The Clone Wars, so what other shit was going down on other planets, Force-involved or otherwise?

There's lots of room for good v. evil stories that are smaller in scale; there's lots of room to mix it up or complicate good v. evil. I think the harder problem for Star Wars that The Mandalorian is helping with is to use it as a platform for telling a wider variety of genre stories. The MCU strategy of using the variety of superhero comics to do thrillers, comic capers, teenage rom-com adventures, huge epics, etc. is going to be harder for Star Wars to do--the tonal range of SW as a property has been smaller. The Mandalorian is bringing in the feel of a western or samurai story. Solo SHOULD have been a caper film but it really wasn't anything that clear in terms of mood or tone. Rogue One was kind of a Dirty Dozen/Guns of Navarone/Eagles Dare war movie, and that worked. But it will take more effort to cram other genre templates into Star Wars, I think.


Any large movie arc you place inside the skywalker saga is going to have the ghosts of vader, like and the rest hanging all over it. Can you make a bunch of one off films about random shit? Yes. Could you make a bunch of one off films come together in a larger story, sure. But you know where 3verything is going .. a few death stars being blown up, order 66 and palatine building a thousand star destroyers on a secret planet and ponies riding down the side of them.

It's like making iron man 2 five years after endgame.
Draegan
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Reply #900 on: September 20, 2020, 10:43:27 AM

I'm on my phone so excuse the format.

You can't do super hero movies like the MCU but you can make sub stories or sub "trilogies" where they are maybe 2 movies long that weave different stories across the Galaxy which ultimately lead to a epic story as they all converge.

You can have a western, a sci fi heroes journey, a fantasy jedi story a military action story all be put together into something bigger.
Velorath
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Reply #901 on: September 20, 2020, 12:51:19 PM

Of course there would still be the issue that as a whole, the Star Wars fanbase is the worst, largely because it's coasting on an aging group of people still nostalgic for the 40+ year old OT while getting tossed an occasionally good scrap like KOTOR or The Mandalorian.
Khaldun
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Reply #902 on: September 20, 2020, 02:36:22 PM

There is also that. Anybody like me who felt like they were having an unexpected spiritual experience as a teenager in the summer of 1977 has a hard time shaking that off and allowing some other thing to happen in the same setting or contest. But I think the LOTR films showed that you can move around some plot elements and characterizations and have that be accepted even by most devotees when they can see the reasons why or see how that's better (or at least comparable). But more importantly, you also have to learn how to make people move on if you want an IP to last and grow. The only essential element is quality, period.
eldaec
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Reply #903 on: September 20, 2020, 03:55:40 PM


It's like making iron man 2 five years after endgame.

It is exactly like this.

And it is exactly what the MCU is doing now, and what Star Wars needs to do.


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"Hyperbole is a cancer" - Lakov Sanite
MahrinSkel
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When she crossed over, she was just a ship. But when she came back... she was bullshit!


Reply #904 on: September 20, 2020, 05:25:47 PM


It's like making iron man 2 five years after endgame.

It is exactly like this.

And it is exactly what the MCU is doing now, and what Star Wars needs to do.
Except that the MCU stuck the landing, and has a lot of goodwill to trade on, where Star Wars...didn't and doesn't.

--Dave

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Khaldun
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Reply #905 on: September 20, 2020, 06:38:44 PM

Yeah, not any more. It's hovering slightly above "Game of Thrones" goodwill (basically zero), largely due to The Mandalorian.

Actually it's really kind of amazing--there isn't a GOT fandom any longer of any kind--not a nerdcore or a mainstream or anything. Star Wars is kind of close to that sarlacc pit.

SurfD
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Reply #906 on: September 20, 2020, 07:44:20 PM

Well, to be fair, GOT basically had ONE chance to get it right as far as a fandom "breakout" was concerned, and they completely cratered on the landing which basically blew the whole thing.   Add to that that the book side fandom is basically stalling slowly to death as they wait for GRRM to finish the thing and it results in a very slow death.    Assuming Martin ever actually finishes the full body of works and we get some kind of closure on the entire saga, maybe it will have a chance to pick back up as a finished product at that time, but as it stands, who knows?

Starwars at least had the "luxury" (if you want to call it that) of having a nicely self contained trilogy released in a reasonable timeframe to form its core around.  GOT Really has none of that.

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Velorath
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Reply #907 on: September 21, 2020, 12:48:34 AM

I'm just waiting for Disney to just say the Sequel Trilogy has been classified as Legends and should just be ignored.

Then you can have real writers take over and make an interesting story the brings Star Wars back to the big screen (if we still have those).

The other thing I've been meaning to say about this is that there's no doubt that the Sequel Trilogy is bad. However there's nothing inherently bad about the state it leaves the setting in. Most of the characters have been written out at this point, or the actors portraying them don't seem to be interested in coming back. It's very unlikely Rey or Finn would be involved in any story going forward. It can be argued that the First Order is wiped out and while the Resistance ultimately won, a case could be made that they don't have the numbers, resources, or even a shared vision of how to run things that would allow them to form any sort of galactic government. This would leave each system to their own laws, control, etc..., which isn't a terrible state to build something new off of.
Draegan
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Reply #908 on: September 21, 2020, 04:41:08 AM

Sure but you still need to skip ahead a generation ornso worth of time.
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Reply #909 on: September 21, 2020, 07:45:09 AM

Well, to be fair, GOT basically had ONE chance to get it right as far as a fandom "breakout" was concerned, and they completely cratered on the landing which basically blew the whole thing.   Add to that that the book side fandom is basically stalling slowly to death as they wait for GRRM to finish the thing and it results in a very slow death.    Assuming Martin ever actually finishes the full body of works and we get some kind of closure on the entire saga, maybe it will have a chance to pick back up as a finished product at that time, but as it stands, who knows?

Starwars at least had the "luxury" (if you want to call it that) of having a nicely self contained trilogy released in a reasonable timeframe to form its core around.  GOT Really has none of that.
Yea, pretty much. Any kind of fandom needs a solid core to coalesce around. The Harry Potter franchise remains popular because the main series was good, despite JK being a pretty shit human being and the Fantastic Beasts movies being a hot mess. The closest GoT has to that core is the first 3 books or the first ~5 seasons of the show, but that's not a discreet, complete story. The awful ending highlighted the mediocrity of the final few seasons, which basically invalidates any desire to rewatch the show at all. Combine that with no new books in nine years, and there's nothing for a fandom to even glom onto. Best case scenario is it becomes something like Wheel of Time or Dragonlance, that nerds talk about but which completely fades from the mainstream.

Star Wars has the OT, KotoR, and Rogue One as a reasonable baseline of quality content. The latter, along with Mandalorian, shows that it is still possible to tell good Star Wars stories in the Disney era. I suspect they'll probably wait a few years and then start a New Trilogy, likely focusing on the descendant of one or more characters from the OT or the ST. Kenobi's (great?) grand kid maybe, Rey as the Luke figure, etc. There's no way they're going to retcon out the ST, nor do I suspect they're going to jump ahead more than a generation.

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