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Author Topic: Star Wars 9 : The Rise of Skywalker  (Read 79086 times)
MahrinSkel
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When she crossed over, she was just a ship. But when she came back... she was bullshit!


Reply #805 on: May 07, 2020, 10:45:56 PM

Give the infinite monkeys enough typewriters, they produce all of the good stories.

--Dave

Edit: I would totally love the movie where the whole saga was just R2-D2 manipulating everyone to weaken the galaxy enough for the droid uprising.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2020, 10:47:40 PM by MahrinSkel »

--Jello Biafra: "If evolution is outlawed, only outlaws will evolve."
Khaldun
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Reply #806 on: May 08, 2020, 08:21:30 AM

I was kind of stunned that Abrams didn't at least try to do something with R2 that recognized that Lucas wanted R2 to be the one figure who appeared in the entire saga. Lucas even said once in 2016 that the whole saga is being told in the future of the SW universe by R2D2 to a librarian or researcher.

Like, maybe at the least, reproduce C-3PO's telling the story to the Ewoks, only this time, have it be R2 replaying everything he's seen and done for some audience. There was a Reddit thread that had a great idea that the last scene should have been R2-D2 talking with an amnesiac C3P0 and offering to show him the entire story that the two of them have been through so he can re-remember it.

So many missed opportunities for narrative cleverness and closure.
jgsugden
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Reply #807 on: May 08, 2020, 09:43:04 PM

We do not have time to recount everything they fucked up.  This plague will be over before 2022 and we woud barely scratch the surface by then.

2020 will be the year I gave up all hope.
Khaldun
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Reply #808 on: May 09, 2020, 09:29:00 AM

Now that I think on it, maybe that's a way to someday remake the prequels. R2 was in hibernation when they started, after all, and he never was very central to what was going on comparatively, so maybe the prequels we saw are an addled, failing R2 in the future just making shit up because he really doesn't know what happened after Luke went into exile and he didn't really witness much of what went on after he woke up. There, that's the ticket.
Sir T
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Reply #809 on: May 10, 2020, 01:36:43 PM

Ya, the nonsensical, dense, convoluted plot and stupid amounts of everything flying around, and Trade Negotiations were actually his memory cells melting down.

Sometimes irony is pretty ironic.
MediumHigh
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Reply #810 on: May 11, 2020, 04:45:30 PM

Abrams is one of a couple of people where I simply don't understand why franchise holders go to him and to the cloud of frequent collaborators he works with. I think it's got to be a case of:

a) suits who own a franchise that they neither really understand nor care much about beyond its financial potential
b) suits prefer a director who can deliver on-time, on-budget and talks their language--and is reasonably obedient to corporate dictate and friendly to plans for ancillary profit from toys, merchandise, etc

I think he accommodates the unfamiliarity and he knows how to pitch to the suits. I think his scriptwriting collaborators bring scripts in on time and make changes without fussing or ego. I think this is why people like Akiva Goldsman keep getting similar gigs despite having written turd after turd--efficiency, obedience to corporate dictate, an ability to pitch to what the suits think the market opportunity is, and probably a good sense of how to blame someone else when a particular franchise adaptation doesn't work out.

For a long time, this all worked because there wasn't something to point to and say: you can do better. The few improbable franchise hits like the first Pirates of the Caribbean ended up looking like lightning in a bottle because the people who made the first hit had trouble reprising their success. But now Feige and the MCU have shown that you can in fact do better. I mean, Abrams was given an appealing cast for his Star Trek reboot, he made a first film that a lot of people at least enjoyed despite its unnecessary fucking around with time travel and its adjustments to Kirk's character. But his basic laziness as a storyteller and his basic disinterest in the best elements of a given franchise means that he can't sustain anything--it's all misbegotten set pieces, narrative misfires, bad fanfic twists, unsustainable gimmicks and a kind of lethal contempt for all parts of his audience that can't help but leak through into the finished product. (Another thing that probably endears him to the suits, who hate all this shit anyway.)


A thousand times this.

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Sir T
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Reply #811 on: May 11, 2020, 06:21:11 PM

I think that moment that he went "Yes, we are planing to use a figure from the past and you are NEVER going to guess who it is oooOOOOooOOOooo..." and the entire internet went "It's Khan, isn't it," should have clued people into how much of a hack the guy is. He thinks he is far cleverer than he is and loves trying to fuck with the audience in stupid ways to prove it.

Sometimes irony is pretty ironic.
Threash
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Reply #812 on: May 13, 2020, 08:55:35 AM

Quote
a) suits who own a franchise that they neither really understand nor care much about beyond its financial potential

It's literally this, and frankly that's exactly the only way it should be. They run a business and their goal is to make money, not make all our childhood dreams come true (thank you Feige). You can luck out and do both, but the only important goal is to make money. The Force Awakens is the #4 highest grossing film of all time, that's why he gets and will continue to get jobs.

I am the .00000001428%
jgsugden
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Reply #813 on: May 13, 2020, 09:50:10 AM

Quote
a) suits who own a franchise that they neither really understand nor care much about beyond its financial potential
It's literally this, and frankly that's exactly the only way it should be. They run a business and their goal is to make money, not make all our childhood dreams come true (thank you Feige). You can luck out and do both, but the only important goal is to make money. The Force Awakens is the #4 highest grossing film of all time, that's why he gets and will continue to get jobs.
They look at fan response in addition to revenue for one category of movies - ones with sequel potential.  The Spider-man series of films (both the TM and AG versions) had a lot of discussion from the studio at investor meetings that dealt with the fan response of a film as an indicator of the expected success of a sequel.  Marvel's empire is based upon confidence.  Even their eggs were pretty good films. 

The reason Andrew Garfield's Spider-man ended was that they expected the next films to be far less lucrative than what they could do with Marvel guiding Spider-man.  The reason Spider-man stayed in the MCU was the fan reaction to the news he was leaving and their expectations about revenue on a Spider-man that was not connected.  These were decisions based on how people felt about the franchises based upon what they'd seen.

2020 will be the year I gave up all hope.
Threash
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Reply #814 on: May 13, 2020, 09:52:34 AM

The reason Andrew Garfield's Spider-man ended was that they expected the next films to be far less lucrative than what they could do with Marvel guiding Spider-man.  The reason Spider-man stayed in the MCU was the fan reaction to the news he was leaving and their expectations about revenue on a Spider-man that was not connected.  These were decisions based on how people felt about the franchises based upon what they'd seen.

I agree with the first part but the second doesn't follow. We can make more money with Marvel than with another Garfield movie is purely a financial decision based on the success of the MCU compared to theirs without them.

I am the .00000001428%
eldaec
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Reply #815 on: May 15, 2020, 03:53:17 AM

Quote
a) suits who own a franchise that they neither really understand nor care much about beyond its financial potential

It's literally this, and frankly that's exactly the only way it should be. They run a business and their goal is to make money, not make all our childhood dreams come true (thank you Feige). You can luck out and do both, but the only important goal is to make money. The Force Awakens is the #4 highest grossing film of all time, that's why he gets and will continue to get jobs.

Also worth noting he got the star wars job after the first trek film to which the reaction was 'OK that is fun if a little insubstantial, let's see where this goes' and before the second one to which the reaction was 'OK it is going nowhere holy shit you burned this out quick'.

TFA and ROS follow the same pattern.

Though I'd still much rather rewatch ROS than Into Darkness.

"People will not assume that what they read on the internet is trustworthy or that it carries any particular ­assurance or accuracy" - Lord Leveson
"Hyperbole is a cancer" - Lakov Sanite
Riggswolfe
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Reply #816 on: May 15, 2020, 06:51:49 AM

Quote
a) suits who own a franchise that they neither really understand nor care much about beyond its financial potential

It's literally this, and frankly that's exactly the only way it should be. They run a business and their goal is to make money, not make all our childhood dreams come true (thank you Feige). You can luck out and do both, but the only important goal is to make money. The Force Awakens is the #4 highest grossing film of all time, that's why he gets and will continue to get jobs.

Also worth noting he got the star wars job after the first trek film to which the reaction was 'OK that is fun if a little insubstantial, let's see where this goes' and before the second one to which the reaction was 'OK it is going nowhere holy shit you burned this out quick'.

TFA and ROS follow the same pattern.

Though I'd still much rather rewatch ROS than Into Darkness.

I'm more than happy to lay Into Darkness at his feet. The entire point of Star Trek 2009 was they could tell all new stories with these characters. Sooo...he chose to do an unearned remake of the best Trek movie ever. RoS is a different situation though. One of the stars was dead and the 2nd movie didn't build on TFA. He was in a no-win scenario and didn't have Kirk to help him.

"We live in a country, where John Lennon takes six bullets in the chest, Yoko Ono was standing right next to him and not one fucking bullet! Explain that to me! Explain that to me, God! Explain it to me, God!" - Denis Leary summing up my feelings about the nature of the universe.
Khaldun
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Reply #817 on: May 15, 2020, 07:21:32 AM

There were a lot of win scenarios possible following the 2nd movie. He chose to avoid all of them, in part because of his own manifest weaknesses as a filmmaker.
eldaec
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Reply #818 on: May 15, 2020, 08:17:50 AM

There were a lot of win scenarios possible following the 2nd movie. He chose to avoid all of them, in part because of his own manifest weaknesses as a filmmaker.


To be fair, I'm not sure there were. If ROS had been as good as tLJ and followed it logically it still would have had people up in arms.

For instance had Rose been a character in ROS, he'd have been accused of pandering just as much, but to different people.

"People will not assume that what they read on the internet is trustworthy or that it carries any particular ­assurance or accuracy" - Lord Leveson
"Hyperbole is a cancer" - Lakov Sanite
Khaldun
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Reply #819 on: May 15, 2020, 08:57:20 AM

Look, just erase Palpatine from the film, first off.

Here's one plot structure where you stay away from TLJ's specific narrative beats but still use the table it set:

Kylo Ren is getting desperate. Having almost destroyed the last of the Rebellion and set the First Order up to reclaim galactic dominion, he is now facing spontaneous rebellions on every planet the First Order wants to control. A new huge fleet is gathering somewhere in deep space to challenge the First Order: the quarrelling, disparate cultures of the galaxy are tired of being threatened by weapons that can blow up planets. The First Order's military is restive under his rule, questioning his power and his right to rule. But the Knights of Ren have returned to him, having been sent looking for information on the history of the Sith. They tell him there's an ancient Sith battlefleet hidden somewhere in the Unknown Regions that can be his and his alone--that only a Sith Lord can command them. But they also tell him that he'll have to have an apprentice, because the Rule of Two still applies.

Rey is training and fretting: how can she possibly counter Kylo Ren without help? But she's learned from Luke that it's not a good idea to restart the Jedi as they used to be. Poe, Finn, Leia and the rest of the gang (brief shot of Rose) are working with the hidden fleet commanders and their political allies. It's a delicate alliance--the Hutts have joined, even the Nightsisters have sent a representative--and they need it to hold together. Rey has a sudden vision from Yoda: Kylo Ren is searching for Exodar and he must not find it, even if she has to kill him. Luke appears and says "no, I saved my father and you can save Ben--he thinks he needs an apprentice but what he really needs is a reason to come back to us--now that I'm dead, he can't be afraid of me and my mistakes any longer". Yoda and Luke give each other a look and vanish.

Rey says: I gotta go guys. Poe, Finn, Chewie and the droids say they'll come to help. Some more intelligent and better-plotted shenangians and fights later, Rey agrees to go with Kylo to Exodar, each of them uncertain of their own loyalties--is she his apprentice? his savior? As insurance, she tells Poe and Co. to go back and get the fleet and palms the locator beacon to one of them so they know where they're going.

Rey and Kylo get there. There's a Sith test. He fails it. Rey isn't his apprentice. To both of their surprise, there's a Jedi test. Both of them fail that too: Rey isn't really a Jedi and Kylo is too conflicted. The Sith fleet rumbles into activity but it's uncontrolled now: it's going to robotically go from planet to planet destroying everything now--it's a doomsday weapon. The galactic fleet shows up and it's a desperate battle that the alliance is losing--they have warp interdiction but the Sith fleet will take it out soon. The First Order's fleet shows up--now under control of the military-- and joins the battle against the Sith fleet--you can't rule a galaxy scoured clean of life. But it's awkward--even if they win, will a new battle break out? Leia is on board a ship that gets destroyed. Kylo has a vision of her and his father and he wants to make amends and stop the fleet--nobody wants everything destroyed. Kylo and Rey find a very very ancient holocron explaining why the Sith first left the Jedi--because the Jedi were too cut off from life, but the Sith were too consumed by passion. Yoda, Luke and Anakin force-ghost in and say that they realize now what all that Chosen One hoo-haw was about: the Force needs not only to be awakened but to be free of Jedi and Sith, of efforts to control it or dam it up. Kylo and Rey embrace the new understanding, the new balance--and the holocron activates a self-destruct on the fleet.

The alliance and First Order fleets are badly damaged and both limp away, uncertain of where they stand. Will the new galactic alliance hold? Will the First Order military be able to hold on to power? Our stalwart friends mourn Leia while they watch Ben Solo uneasily. Poe, Finn and Chewbacca vow to try to hold the alliance together and to keep the First Order a minor power. C3P0 notes that he knows a lot of languages and R2D2 can tell the story of the wars from the fall of the Republic to now so that people can see the value in connection and unity.

Rey says she'll try to help if she can, but that people will have to come to the Force however they can--that the galaxy will do without Jedi or Sith now.  Rey gives Ben one of Luke's lightsabers and she keeps the other and they go their separate, uncertain ways. She heads to Tatooine to try and connect with Luke's history and take inspiration from his story, while Luke and Obi-Wan's force ghosts watch her approvingly. Ben goes to Corellia to try and connect with his father's past--and is watched by Anakin and Leia's force ghosts. Who knows what happens next? FIN.

--------------

I mean, I think there's a bunch of other ways to do it, but Abrams could have both moved for narrative closure, worked with what Johnson put on the table, *and* built an ongoing storytelling engine.
Draegan
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Reply #820 on: May 15, 2020, 10:40:39 AM

That would have been worse. Sorry.
Khaldun
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Reply #821 on: May 15, 2020, 02:45:36 PM

Eh, anything that would have gotten rid of the fetch quests as such to me would have been an improvement. But I think something that actually was clever about the whole saga would have been possible.
jgsugden
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Reply #822 on: May 15, 2020, 05:02:00 PM

To get good marks from me it would need to have been:

* Hopeful.
* Featuring, not just containing, the original trio.
* Addressing the Legacy of Vader/Skywalker at the core of the films.
* Having good dialogue and acting.

2020 will be the year I gave up all hope.
Sir T
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Reply #823 on: May 15, 2020, 05:18:16 PM

I like to give the example that Khan quoted whole Passages of Moby Dick during the Wrath of Khan and it was awesome. Picard did the same in that Borg movie and it sucked ass.

So ya, they could have implemented something combining 7 and 8. But Abrams couldn't do it because he is interested in constructing his own magic mystery boxes, not in having anyone open them. Frankly, giving Abrams the first movie in a trilogy was a smart move as he seems to be good at STARTING a story but he has no idea or interest in how to end them.

Sometimes irony is pretty ironic.
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Reply #824 on: May 16, 2020, 06:14:40 AM

To get good marks from me it would need to have been:

* Hopeful.
* Featuring, not just containing, the original trio.
* Addressing the Legacy of Vader/Skywalker at the core of the films.
* Having good dialogue and acting.

I mean they gave you that and it still sucked.

Most of these ideas were explored in the EU. In Fact Abrams pretty much stole everything save for General Thrawn from the EU and we forgot that it sucked pretty hard and was ridiculed  for being a bunch of hack fanfics. To be honest what we really needed was a story set in the Old Republic franchise. If we really wanted to set a story post original trilogy than the only smart decision would have been to set it far enough in the future the original cast is remembered but no longer around. But if Disney wanted to make either movie, they would have never hired JJ Abrams. Which means they never intended to make good star wars or never understood what good star wars would look like.

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jgsugden
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Reply #825 on: May 16, 2020, 09:44:11 AM

Having those four criteria does not guarantee a good film.  However, it was extremely unlikely for me to give *this* trilogy, episodes 7 to 9, good marks if it did not do those things.  We did not get there here - and I would argue we did not get that in the EU from reviews (I never read them). 

2020 will be the year I gave up all hope.
01101010
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You call it an accident. I call it justice.


Reply #826 on: May 16, 2020, 08:48:06 PM

Finally got around to watching this.. all I can say is that I watched them all. I was not entertained.... ugh. So disappointed.

"I want to watch it all burn in an orgy of smashed Coke machines and weasel rape." - HaemishM
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