Sekiro: Shadows Die Twice - From Software

[Jeff Kelly]

I find the game very hard to read most of the time. Additionally the game doesn't lend itself very well to practice because it only gives me limited feedback.

Practice for me means that I can practice just that one thing that I'm bad at over and over again and that I'm getting feedback what exactly I did wrong. Fights are OK but not that useful if you're trying to practice a certain move and the undying tutorial NPC is simply too easy and also doesn't give you feedback should you screw up. I have absolutely no issue beating the NPC, yet still regularly get my ass handed to me by harder regular enemies.

From Software's usual approach to tutorialisation doesn't work for me here because I actually don't know what I did wrong most of the time just that something went wrong. It was easier in DS and even BB because mechanically parry wasn't all that important and if you got hit you usually either dodged too late or in the wrong direction. Windup animations were much longer too so the windows for dodge were more generous as well. Sekiro doesn't give me enough feedback though or if it does then I don't understand it.

I still regularly mistime deflects and I still have a hard time deciding when to deflect, when to block, when to counter and when to dodge. Take the mikiri counter for example. It's a very important move against thrust attacks and if you mistime it you're most likely dead because perilous attacks usually do a lot of damage. Same for the double jump over slash attacks. (headstomp)

It's hard to practice (tutorial NPC is too easy, regular enemy is not predictable and you can't really iterate quickly), it's costly when you fuck it up and the game isn't really telling me what exactly I did wrong or I simply can't read the feedback properly. (too late? too early? should I have dodged into the enemy with direction and circle or not?)

It at least seems like I'm getting better because I still progress but I couldn't tell you why and most of the time I couldn't tell you why a certain move worked or not which means I'm not really learning.

[Falconeer]

You can practice doing the same section over and over. It's what I did and helped me lot. I did some parts of the estate a million times (raking up money and skill points too in the process) until I could dominate the swarm of enemies and in case I died I just ressurrected and ran back to the bonfire to prevent dragonrot spread. The dragonrot spread is my only complaint. You can go around it most of the times but in boss fights, where you cannot escape, it really makes you feel like being given a long term punishment for trying to learn.

Outsidr of boss fights, I feel there are infinite occasions to train.

[Cyrrex]

I feel I could play the estates section for the rest of my life and never really master it. Good place for grinding up the skills, though.

This is going to sound stupid, seeing as I have played enough that I should know better, but.....Dragonrot?  I get it as a methaporical story concept, but what does it do in the actual game?  When I ressurrect, I usually just keep plugging away at it until I die good and proper.  It sounds to me now that I am making some horrible, irreversible mistake.  Because I die A WHOLE FUCKING LOT.  Come to think of it, I don't know what half the mechanics mean in this game, nor the onscreen indicators  

For reference, my progress amounts to only having just passed the first Chained Ogre, and in the estates area I have made it to the actual burning estate itself.  Starting over wouldn't be the worst disaster ever...thought about doing it anyway, because I am playing directly on my son's account (instead of sharing via Steam) which is kinda annoying me anyway.

[Ironwood]

You can practice doing the same section over and over. It's what I did and helped me lot. I did some parts of the estate a million times (raking up money and skill points too in the process) until I could dominate the swarm of enemies and in case I died I just ressurrected and ran back to the bonfire to prevent dragonrot spread. The dragonrot spread is my only complaint. You can go around it most of the times but in boss fights, where you cannot escape, it really makes you feel like being given a long term punishment for trying to learn.

Outsidr of boss fights, I feel there are infinite occasions to train.

Outside of Boss Fights Doesn't Matter. 

I get what's being said.  I would kill for the ability to practice a boss, particularly those that are a long way from the spawn points.  I was fucking up on Spear Chaps because I am …. inconsistent with Makiri, despite having it fully upgraded.  Instead, I ended up just using an unconventional strat to win.  I could have just practiced and practiced, but I knew that A - I wasn't that good and B - Fuck that trash run.  Fuck it.

However, the actual 'Boss Bosses' are not skippable, entirely required and give you very little feedback to go on.  I literally couldn't tell you right now HOW Genichiro won - as Neo would say, 'He's too fast' - but I know he handed me my ass.  I have butterfly 'deflect, deflect, wait one beat, then deflect kick' ingrained in my head a the moment and it DOESN'T HELP ME FUCK ALL WITH HIM.  So I know I'm just going to have to learn HIS shit and get it done, but by fuck practicing would be nice.

Honestly, all the trash in the world doesn't matter a fuck and practicing on them just doesn't help at all. None of them will suddenly summon fucking ghosts and lightning bolts and muppets to attack you.  That shit just needs learned.

[Ironwood]

I get it as a methaporical story concept, but what does it do in the actual game?  

Almost fuck all.  Stops the NPC's quests progressing and reduces the chance that you'll save your shit on death.  It's a totally forgettable mechanic that you have a million chances to reverse.

I wouldn't worry about it at all, unless it matters much much later ?

[Jeff Kelly]

The feedback loop of the game is another complaint I have because it punishes players that are in the process of getting better and makes the game even harder for them. I'm at so much dragon rot at the moment that unseen aid never triggers and I can't reset it because I have no item. I'm actually wondering if NPCs could die from too much dragon rot.

Doing sections over and over is not really what I need though. I need to practice moves not enemies and I need feedback what I did wrong and ideally I need to do it in areas where I can iterate quickly. I'll give you an example what I mean.

I'm currently practicing mikiri counter vs the spear monks that live near the cemetery area on Hirata estate because they are the only enemies that consistently do a slash attack and where I can fight single enemies without the need to clear out an area first.

The loop still takes too long because I have to start from the spirit idol at the thicket, kill the enemies that are near the bridge and tower (where the Shinobi hunter was) hook shot to the cemetery, kill another enemy and then head left and down. Then I face one of the monks, fuck it up, die, resurrect, fuck it up, die again. Respawn at the spirit idol and repeat. If you'd ask me what I've learned so far doing that over and over again the only thing I could tell you is that I must be doing something wrong because I die. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, the fuck do I know why though.

Redoing sections doesn't help me all that much because in order to practice a certain move I need enemies that consistently do a certain move and the mix of different enemies in a certain area only means that I'm taking even longer to get better since most enemies don't do the thing I need to practice or don't do it consistently enough.

I can do the estate up to where the drunken boy was in my sleep yet I still die almost instantly vs.  because it takes so long to get back to where I was after death and practice runs usually don't last that long

[lesion]

When I get stuck I go do other stuff, like on Genichiro I beat my head against it for a while and then pushed on to Mibu Village (what) before realizing I should probably kill the first actual boss-boss.

Died again horribly but realized he's weak to a single hit towards his side just after an attack, or if you can step-dodge to the side whenever and plink him undefended. Chip him down to 1/2 and then every time he shoots arrows or swings a sword his posture stays up. Just keep deflecting at that point and you'll get a counter kill. I suck at Mikiri so I just dodged/deflected the entire fight and managed to get past phase 1 (2 health orbs) with no more gourds, but one-shotted phase 2 thanks to those lightning tutorials. Feels good.

[Jeff Kelly]

Usually when you need to learn something that requires a certain amount of physical skill you opt for tight loops and lots of repetitions. That's why games like Super Meatboy or I wanna be that guy are structured the way they are. Short levels, tight loops, instant restart. The biggest mistake people make when they learn a physical skill is that they restart from the beginning when they screw up instead of at the part where they made the mistake. This will most often lead you to actually reinforce the mistake instead of "unlearning" it.

Learning the piano means that I'll practice a certain set of bars or chords I have trouble with over and over again until it works. I can use a metronome to check if I'm on rhythm, I can slow things down or speed them up, I can arbitrarily extend the number of bars I play or reduce them and when I have a certain part down I expand until I'm able to play the whole song or repeat that process on another part I have trouble with. Each step has clear feedback. Do I hit all of the notes? Do I hit the correct notes? Do I use the correct fingers? Do I hit the correct tempo? and so on.

It's the same with almost all physical skills. When you have trouble hitting nails you practice hitting nails. You don't restart from the point in time where you bought the timber at home depot each time you don't hit a nail. If you screw up a three pointer you keep practicing your throws, you don't restart at the locker room and put on your basketball shoes again.

Right now the game isn't giving me enough to practice what I need to learn in a structured manner and with enough feedback and it makes it quite a bit harder.

[Ironwood]

I can do the estate up to where the drunken boy was in my sleep yet I still die almost instantly vs.  because it takes so long to get back to where I was after death and practice runs usually don't last that long

Here's the thing about him though ;  He's a cunt.  He's a total cunt.

And he dies like a bitch to Mid-Air Deathblow.  Which you don't have and won't get for fucking ever.

So there's that. 

If I was you, I'd be more questioning why in the name of fuck he's even there because he's clearly entirely out of place, level wise.

[Falconeer]

Why is Schild not playing this?
Schild, don't be wrong. Play this.

[Cyrrex]

Something something it is not Demon Souls would be my guess as to why he is not playing it.

And really, it is not Demon Souls.  Liking one will not necessarily mean liking the other

[Falconeer]

Hey to me Demon's Souls is probably the best game ever made, but it's not like we sold our PCs or Playstations after it.

[schild]

i'm not playing it just because i'm not playing it

i will play it, it's on the list

[Cyrrex]

I was just talking out my ass anyway.  This game is hard not to like on several levels, even if there are complaints that can be leveled at it.

[Rasix]

I can't do "hard" games anymore. Most difficult thing I've beaten in the last decade has been Dead Cells. That's not even attempting really to go beyond the first whole clear. 

Demon's Souls was novel and the atmosphere was like nothing I'd played, but never got close to beating it. Bashing my head against a wall just isn't my thing anymore. I'd rather hit buttons and watch shit explode or cruise through a RPG on default difficulty. Yah, I'm lame.

[Big Gulp]

I can't do "hard" games anymore. Most difficult thing I've beaten in the last decade has been Dead Cells. That's not even attempting really to go beyond the first whole clear. 

Demon's Souls was novel and the atmosphere was like nothing I'd played, but never got close to beating it. Bashing my head against a wall just isn't my thing anymore. I'd rather hit buttons and watch shit explode or cruise through a RPG on default difficulty. Yah, I'm lame.

Just do what I do and run a trainer.  The fights are still plenty fun and the game is enjoyable with unlimited health.  I don't need the experience of chucking my controller and swearing to enjoy.

[Rendakor]

The problem I have with games like this (and Jeff touched on it upthread) is not that I can't possibly learn the boss patterns; it's that after a death, I don't want to work my way back to the boss over and over only to die again in 15 seconds.

[Falconeer]

For fairness, this time they put a bonfire just outside the main bosses rooms. Not so much for mini-bosses though which are very hard anyway.

[Trippy]

They also added the training person.

[Falconeer]

This is getting ridiculous. After Forbes, now Kotaku.

"An Easy Mode Has Never Ruined A Game".

I don't get it. Why don't they just download Big Gulp's infinite HP trainer? Also, I am not sure I understand these articles' intentions. Based on their argument, which is removing entry barriers, shouldn't every single video game come equipped with an optional "God mode"? Coherently, that's what they should advocate for globally not just about From's games.

[Rasix]

GiantBomb had a decent take on this issue in the bombcast. However, I don't think any measured response on this issue would cause you to think semi-critically about the benefits of this.

I don't run trainers. If I need to run a program to beat your game outside of fixing a fatal bug, I'm not going to buy your game. If a game/series of games/genre is just too hard, I don't buy it or I buy it really cheap.

Too much shit to play anyhow. I'm not about to write a think piece or petition From to change their games. They're not for me. I don't buy them. Is this a potential lost sale based on something as simple as putting in an easier mode? Hard to tell, there's no current game in recent memory that I played on a difficulty lower than normal.

Also, there's a difference between easier and 'God Mode'. Don't be obtuse. It's a tricky issue. What even is "easy mode" for a Soulsbourne?

[Trippy]

GiantBomb had a decent take on this issue in the bombcast. However, I don't think any measured response on this issue would cause you to think semi-critically about the benefits of this.

I don't run trainers. If I need to run a program to beat your game outside of fixing a fatal bug, I'm not going to buy your game. If a game/series of games/genre is just too hard, I don't buy it or I buy it really cheap.

Too much shit to play anyhow. I'm not about to write a think piece or petition From to change their games. They're not for me. I don't buy them. Is this a potential lost sale based on something as simple as putting in an easier mode? Hard to tell, there's no current game in recent memory that I played on a difficulty lower than normal.

Also, there's a difference between easier and 'God Mode'. Don't be obtuse. It's a tricky issue. What even is "easy mode" for a Soulsbourne?

For the past Soulsbourne games (i.e. not including Sekiro, which has different mechanics) that would mean mobs don't hit as hard, basically. I.e. it would be the opposite of how NG+(+etc) works in those games.

Edit: and possibly have fewer HP (forgot NG+ mobs also have more HP)

[Rasix]

Probably also respawning at the fog shit. Or was that just in Demon's Souls? Oddly enough I still have my copy of Dark Souls, but I don't think I ever played much of it.

Heh, my Demon's Souls import still retains some actual value. Neat.

[schild]

Probably also respawning at the fog shit. Or was that just in Demon's Souls? Oddly enough I still have my copy of Dark Souls, but I don't think I ever played much of it.

Heh, my Demon's Souls import still retains some actual value. Neat.

i should really sell my deluxe edition, J Edition, and Pre-Release Press Beta

[Ironwood]

So, I spent two hours fighting Genichiro last night.  Two Fucking Hours.  There were about 3 times I sailed to lightning stage and thought myself pretty smug.  But 3 times is not enough time to learn the different moves there, so right back to fuckdom I go.

There's no mechanism in this game to make up for your own poor performance.  I can't really go anywhere to grind out more power that will help.  It's all about my 'getting gud' and I'm clearly not that Gud.  You run out of wee spirit things quite quick and there's no point getting more until you're confident they'll help.  Ditto skills.  Also, I made the mistake of using a fair bit of sugar to practice and now I'm out of it, which is an interesting thing.

It's annoying because I feel that I'm Almost There.  I know when the flurry is coming and how to parry all of it. I know when he jumps to get behind him and I know when he thrusts right after that jump, it's Makiro time. I can even pull what I wrote off a couple of times, but not often because my mind is quicker than my hands.

But Goddamn.  Do I really want to read a writeup about an easy mode ?  I don't think so because I might just end up agreeing.  I mean, it would be really, really, really good if, like the other souls games, I could summon a bro.  Even just getting murdered together would make me feel better.

[Falconeer]

Took me 4 hours and 40 minutes to beat Genichiro. 4 hours and 40 fucking minutes. When he died I screamed like I won the Champions League.

[Cyrrex]

An interesting follow-up question to that might be:  Do you feel like the payoff was worth the investment?

I haven't read any of the Easy Mode articles, nor have a made it nearly as far as the rest of you (haven't touched it since Sunday), but in general, I would be supportive of a slightly easier mode.  Not full on EASY MODE like we know it from RPGs and others where it takes all the challenge out so you can enjoy the story, because these From Software games are ultimately all about the challenge in the first place.  But I am worried about my ability to even get halfway through this game based on what I am hearing from you guys, and that is a concern.

From Software is free to do whatever they want, and they don't have to cave to the pressure....but at some point, making these games too hard will turn people off from them, and thus they will be shooting themselves in the foot.  And it would be a shame if a large portion of the population is being cut off from the best games made by, IMO, the best developer of games, simply because they are too brutally difficult.  That is something I think is a valid complaint and a debate worth having.

[Falconeer]

It was absolutely worth my investment, and the level of challenge (and the quality of the gameplay) is exactly why I could not put it down even after 4 hours and 40 minutes. I would have left ANY other game after 1 hours of failed tries. I 100% understand what Miyazaki says when he mentions the satisfaction of overcoming difficulties and so on. This clearly does not trigger in everybody but for those who does there aren't many other games like this.

I also understand that it is not ideal having to download an external program to progress in a game, but suck it up. Big Gulp is here to represent all of those who want to see the game to its conclusion and still enjoy slaying everything without having to die. Trainers and God Modes, internal or external, are a valid point and I always assumed that people who can't be bothered with the way a game is can always rely on them. Treat them like a mod, no one is against Skyrim or Minecraft mods is it? One of my best friends is obsessed with finishing all the games quickly and frustration-free and he does NOT play any game that he can't get cheat codes for. He finishes about twenty games a month and he's happy like that. More power to him.
So I understand why some people don't want to mess with the actual challenge, but there are plenty of solutions out there. I always wanted to see the end of Ikaruga*, and the way to do it is by downloading a trainer or infinite continues not by asking them to make it easier.

I'll tell you something more. This is the hardest From Software game ever, and so far it looks like it's the most popular. There's a lot that can be said about lost sales due to the difficulty, but I am inclined to think that for one reason or the other they would lose way more sales if they changed their formula.

EDIT:
* which, to my point, has an easy mode and it's still widely considered too hard

[Cyrrex]

Good points.  It actually is an interesting conversation.  And I would agree that, at least so far, this is clearly harder than the other FS games.  The first General I had to fight (who I guess is the first boss if I remember)...I was pretty good at getting close to killing him, but I will admit it took me a couple hours.  I would do okay, and then just one fuckup would end it for me.  No big deal, because the respawn was right outside his area.  I was trying a mix of tactics, dodging and sidestepping more than what I understand is recommended.  In the end, something just clicked where I engaged him in a flurry of attacks and perfect parries, and I just FUCKED HIM UP.  I screamed like a dying cow when I finally got him down.  Massively rewarding.  Chained Ogre was the same way, although with him it was more a case of understanding the correct tactics and having access to the items and skills needed.

That there is now another fucking General immediately after the Ogre, this one surrounded by goons and henchman......yeah.  I had to put the controller down and walk away for a while.

And now, for the embarrasing part of my post.....wtf is a Trainer?  I thought at first you were all just talking about watching YouTube walkthroughs, but it sounds like an actual program?

[Falconeer]

Yeah "trainers" is how they were called in the 80s and 90s if my memory serves me right. It's either a cheat code or an external program that cheats. God mode, infinite ammo, infinite money, stuff like that. No idea what Big Gulp is using, whether is just a code, cheat engine, or what else. Basically, "trainer" = "cheats".

EDIT: Here's an example. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmSzkpCr7YE

[Jeff Kelly]

It is the most talked about. If it's the most popular is something only time can tell. What I can tell you is that the debate is shifting. That's because a lot of "git gud" veterans have now reached their personal skill ceiling and are a little pissed off about that.

Mostly because everyone tends to forget how they actually played the previous games over all of the "difficulty über alles" circlejerk.

It's easy to get on the "From games need to be difficult" train if you're one of the people who have the ability to finish them. It's also easy because no one can check how you finished them. You can cheese Dark Souls, you can cheese Bloodborne. Nobody notices if you beat the game on a Level 1 no armor char or if you grinded your way to level 200 and pyromancied your way to victory. No one will know if you beat every boss by yourself or if you summoned. No one will know if you just murdered a boss through the fog doors with a bow by abusing a glitch or if you made him fall through the earth and hit a kill trigger. No one will know that you rolled a strength 50 char and just used Havel's ring and armor the whole game, never dodge rolling once. No one will know if you simply status effected a boss to death with poison. Speed runners of Bloodborne regularly abuse boss AI or the game mechanics to trivialize fights. No one will know if you spent 2 hours to shoot the dragon to death with bow and arrow from a safe distance. No one will know how you abused world tendency on your PS3 to make Demon's Souls easier or that you farmed hundreds of health items in DS 2.

I could literally go on for hours given how many options you have to cheese and glitch your way through all of the games including Orphan of Kos.

A lot of people killed Ornstein and Smough. Only a few people beat them without summoning, even fewer people beat Smough first to get the ring. (the harder fight). I did but I can't ever prove that I did it "the right way" so who gives a fuck.

There have been lots of ways in previous games to make it easier, to trivialize fights, to cheese or outright cheat. Youtube and the web is full with tutorials and strategy guides that tell you how to most effectively abuse boss AI, make the most broken build possible or glitch the games to make it easier. Watch how fans actually play those games and you'll see that a lot of time and effort gets spent to absolutely not fight bosses the intended (and harder) way. The whole difficulty argument is self aggrandizing bullshit because everyone who beat those games can later claim to have beat it pure and that it was hard while no one can check if they actually beat the games "the way the designer intended it" or if they bullshitted their way to victory.

This gets me back to the reception of Sekiro. FromSoft removed most of the cheese from that game. There's no summons, there's no grinding, you need to beat (mini)bosses to upgrade your char, there's no armor or weapons and no item upgrade system and they built the game around a mechanic that was optional in previous games and which is difficult to execute perfectly.

So suddenly a lot of the "git gud" people are singing a different tune because now they are themselves in a situation where they can't beat the game and where cheesing is not an option and where they no longer can get up on the high horse and proselytize about how FromSoft games need to be difficult and how everyone who doesn't know how to play is a filthy casual.

It's actually very fun to watch.

Game is out less than two weeks and there already exists a full set of cheats and tables for cheat engine and an ungodly amount of time is being spent on finding cheese strats for bosses. . People on the official Sekiro subreddit openly talk about cheat engine and they are not getting banned or even sneered at.

But, you know, auteur game and game designers intent and so on...

The general reaction to Sekiro is very positive but there's also a growing sentiment by a lot of people - even by those who beat the game - that it's actually too hard and that beating it stopped being a fun challenge and turned into a lot of stress and work. There's also a lot of people who either quit for good, ask for cheese strats and there's a growing number of "I just tried boss X for six hours straight, fuck it I'm installing cheat engine" posts.

So I'm actually curious to see how the game get's talked about a year from now when the hype has died down and not everyone is reflexively trying to defend the game design choices.

[Ironwood]

So much in that post I love mate that I wish I had time to reply to.  The standout is what you said about Smough ; 

1 - Who would do that fight without help ??  It's much more FUN with help !
2 - You can get a ring ?  Oh Fuck.

[Jeff Kelly]

as off topic as my previous post but more constructive.

The designer of Celeste actually suggested a few "assist mode" tweaks to Sekiro which would make the game easier for people without removing the challenge. Like for example unlimited resurrects, a game speed setting and more.

It's actually very ineresting to hear them talk about the game design philosphy for Celeste because if you play the game how the designers intended it it can be very hard and the "B sides" of the levels offer an even higher challenge. They also added a lot of tweakables to the game that they call "assist mode" and where you can modify game mechanics to reduce the challenge level of the game, like for example adding an additional jump, increasing the stamina etc. They have talked at length about their reasons for adding assists, how this had to approach it, why they think it is not only necessary but actually a very positive thing. They aso talked about how they needed to change their philosophy because their intent was to make a hard game and so they had to overcome their own preconceptions at some point (he called it "letting go")

It's an interesting read

[Jeff Kelly]

So much in that post I love mate that I wish I had time to reply to.  The standout is what you said about Smough ; 

1 - Who would do that fight without help ??  It's much more FUN with help !
2 - You can get a ring ?  Oh Fuck.

There's two ways you can do that fight

Kill Ornstein first then Smough (who turns into Super Smough) and you'll get Smough's armor set from a vendor if you beat the fight
Kill Smough first and then Ornstein (who turns into Super Ornstein) then you'll get Ornstein's armor set and also the leo ring.

The ring is the additional reward for choosing the more difficult fight because Super Smough is still a slow and lumbering oaf while Super Ornstein retains the reach and quickness he has in phase 1 but additionally gets the AOE of Smough and hits twice as hard.

The ring is not even good because it only boosts thrust damage and therefore only works on thrusting weapons (like spears) or weapons that have a thrust attack. That#s why most people don't even bother except for the bragging rights.

[Ironwood]

I did it.  I finally got the motherfucker.