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Author Topic: The Good Place  (Read 14500 times)
Khaldun
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Reply #70 on: January 26, 2019, 06:36:17 PM

The nature of Satan is not something Christianity actually scripturally has anything to say about; contemporary evangelicals don't seem to know that they are largely riffing off of Milton. But if you buy Milton, the angels had free will, sure--the fallen ones made a decision and it was the wrong one and they refused to recant it. But the Bad Place demons in the show don't seem to me to be entirely those kinds of beings--and yet they do seem to have desires, personalities, distinctive natures. And free will, of some sort.
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Reply #71 on: January 27, 2019, 10:46:45 AM

I never thought that was possible for a born evil Demon. I forget. Do angels and demons have free will or is that just a human thing.

If you subscribe to the "demons are fallen angels" story, then clearly they had free will at at least one point.  I think theologians are divided on whether they have free will now; the popular theory seems to be that then the universe was still being formed, the angels had free will, and some of them decided to leave, but having made that choice they don't get to revisit it; the angels in Heaven are too wrapped up in eternal goodness to be capable of wanting to rebel, and the demons in Hell are likewise stuck with their choice because they're too mired in sin to be able to conceive of repentance.  The same is true of human souls after death; once you reach either Heaven or Hell the experience of being there makes it fundamentally impossible for you to choose to be in the other place.

The entire premise of the Good Place seems to be about upending that.  Certainly prior to the events of the show it doesn't seem that there was any precedent for humans to find redemption after death, because once you die you stop accruing points, so the implication is that the "point system" follows the same general rules of "free will" in terms of only getting to take advantage of it while you're alive on Earth, which would also mean that angels and demons aren't affected by it.  But then Michael does his experiment and all that goes out the window.

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Reg
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Reply #72 on: January 27, 2019, 11:35:10 AM

If you watched the Lucifer TV series you'd see them doing a riff on that as well that applies to angels and demons both. In that show angels and demons get what they think they deserve and God has nothing to do with it.
Reg
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Reply #73 on: January 18, 2020, 04:52:06 PM

Anyone still watching this? I've been keeping up with it and they're doing the last few episodes of their final season. Tying off loose ends and finishing the story. It's still a fun show.
Khaldun
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Reply #74 on: January 18, 2020, 09:21:20 PM

Still very fun. I am wondering what could possibly be coming next. I am assuming one more twist at least.
Reg
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Reply #75 on: January 19, 2020, 06:19:48 AM

Oh yeah. I've been keeping up with the rumour mill and there are all kinds of bizarre theories any of which might be true.
eldaec
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Reply #76 on: January 19, 2020, 02:07:00 PM

Still very fun. I am wondering what could possibly be coming next. I am assuming one more twist at least.

I assumed at the end of this episode they are all off to do the test.

But could also imagine something about what a good place would actually be.

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Reg
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Reply #77 on: January 19, 2020, 03:06:48 PM

Last episode Michael said they didn't have to do the test because giving all of humanity a fair chance to get out of the Bad Place was worth a ton of points.
Khaldun
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Reply #78 on: January 19, 2020, 06:48:16 PM

I have been wondering all along if there isn't another twist about Michael, Janet and the entire arc of the show. Remember that one of the basic ideas they've been playing around with is if people change when they think they'll be punished or rewarded for changing, is that really change?
Khaldun
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Reply #79 on: January 19, 2020, 06:52:00 PM

Plus also this: is a Good Place where the minders of the Good Place are as ineffectual and clueless as the supposed Good Placers we've seen so far are, isn't that by definition *not* the Good Place? Does anyone want to spend eternity with a bunch of sincere but clueless middle managers in charge?
eldaec
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Reply #80 on: January 20, 2020, 01:06:36 AM

Last episode Michael said they didn't have to do the test because giving all of humanity a fair chance to get out of the Bad Place was worth a ton of points.

Well sure, but why did they say more than once that they do need to do the test, just to throw it away like that?

The test only works, just like points only worked, if the subject doesn't know about the test/points.

Plus also this: is a Good Place where the minders of the Good Place are as ineffectual and clueless as the supposed Good Placers we've seen so far are, isn't that by definition *not* the Good Place? Does anyone want to spend eternity with a bunch of sincere but clueless middle managers in charge?

My feeling is that this also needs an answer, but also might be the question that is explicitly left hanging.

And given what a super good time main characters have had over the last 50 episodes, maybe they decide that just doing the test is the good place after all.  Or maybe everyone was in the good place the whole time, and the point of the good place is to fix humans after their time on Earth.



« Last Edit: January 20, 2020, 01:08:17 AM by eldaec »

"People will not assume that what they read on the internet is trustworthy or that it carries any particular ­assurance or accuracy" - Lord Leveson
"Hyperbole is a cancer" - Lakov Sanite
Reg
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Reply #81 on: January 20, 2020, 07:21:21 AM

Once Chidi got the memories of the 800 rebooted lives he's lived he seems to have it all together finally. I wonder what would happen if the others got all of their memories back?
eldaec
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Reply #82 on: January 20, 2020, 10:45:53 AM

I'm not totally clear that they don't. This is a sitcom so I guess they only do if it is funny.

"People will not assume that what they read on the internet is trustworthy or that it carries any particular ­assurance or accuracy" - Lord Leveson
"Hyperbole is a cancer" - Lakov Sanite
Khaldun
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Reply #83 on: January 21, 2020, 07:20:52 AM

I don't think Elanor changes much--in most of those 800, she travelled the same arc (normally the person who figures out it's the Bad Place, learns to be more ethical with Chidi's help, etc.) only it's only once that she fully connects with Chidi romantically, which is the key memory she needs back.

Tahani seems to not have a ton of variation in her experiences either. She starts as a basically decent person with a serious character flaw (like Chidi) but unlike Chidi makes modest progress towards improvement with a lot of backsliding throughout the series.

Jason I have no idea, which is right and proper. I can't imagine him having a sudden epiphany that sorts everything out in the wake of remembering all 800 lives.
Velorath
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Reply #84 on: January 21, 2020, 12:04:28 PM

I think the others already got their memories back. I know Jason in particular got his back on the way to rescue Janet and then promptly forgot most of them again a few seconds later.
eldaec
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Reply #85 on: January 21, 2020, 12:35:23 PM

I find Chidi's "flaw" a bit weird.

Being indecisive doesn't feel like something that should send you to the bad place.


"People will not assume that what they read on the internet is trustworthy or that it carries any particular ­assurance or accuracy" - Lord Leveson
"Hyperbole is a cancer" - Lakov Sanite
jgsugden
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Reply #86 on: January 21, 2020, 12:39:58 PM

I find Chidi's "flaw" a bit weird.

Being indecisive doesn't feel like something that should send you to the bad place.
I go back and forth on that... it does cause harm to his friends and it is in his power to make a decision, so he does have some responsibility for the harm he causes, but others could decide to act without waiting for his decision, so they take some of the blame as well....

Yes, I did that just to be indecisive.  I'm bored.

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Khaldun
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Reply #87 on: January 21, 2020, 01:35:48 PM

If by being indecisive--because you overthink everything--you hurt people you love, you fail to do your job well, you keep your potential contributions to the world forever bottled up, you do not act decisively in situations that call for decisive moral or physical action, then that's a pretty bad moral failing. Think about it this way: a person who sees Jerry Sandusky in a shower with young boys, who has heard a lot of stories about Sandusky, who has heard Sandusky himself say bad things, but who is indecisive about doing anything about it because you know, there could be other explanations or there isn't enough information to go on, etc., is someone that the rest of us (mostly) hold culpable later on for failing to act. Chidi hasn't quite been that bad but we've heard enough moments from his life (lives) where he's been unable to sort between incredibly trivial choices and vitally important emotional and moral ones to see that it's a serious character flaw.

Of course it's not enough to send him to the Bad Place as it has been described in the show so far, but that's been the show's point: everybody is going to the Bad Place because the system is broken.
eldaec
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Reply #88 on: January 22, 2020, 02:16:53 AM

I just find it weird.

And one thing not discussed in the show is the point that this sort of flaw, like stupidity or disability, is the sort of thing that humans way back used to take as a sign of a person lacks virtue. But not so much today.

"People will not assume that what they read on the internet is trustworthy or that it carries any particular ­assurance or accuracy" - Lord Leveson
"Hyperbole is a cancer" - Lakov Sanite
Khaldun
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Reply #89 on: January 22, 2020, 09:35:28 AM

Again, it's kind of the point the show is making: that in the system they have, everyone is morally tainted and no one goes to The Good Place. I thought it was interesting that they tied that to modern life--that we're all enmeshed in systems that compromise us morally and we all have social networks that are so complicated and place so many obligations on us that we are always failing someone greviously, maybe in ways we scarcely guess at or understand.
Bokonon
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Reply #90 on: January 23, 2020, 10:10:11 AM

I think the show has also been pretty clear that "do no harm" is not a philosophy that gets you to the Good Place. The requirement is that you are an active agent of good. Which sometimes means not acting, but more often means doing something with good intentions and taking responsibility for fixing as many of the unintended consequences as you can (also a very clear point of the show).
Reg
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Reply #91 on: January 24, 2020, 06:04:40 AM

Last night's episode was amazing. The Good Place was in a surprising situation and the resolution made a lot of sense.

Series finale is next week.
Reg
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Reply #92 on: January 31, 2020, 08:51:10 PM

I thought the last episode was pretty much perfect. All the loose ends were tied up and the show ended before I got tired of it.
Khaldun
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Reply #93 on: February 02, 2020, 07:45:23 AM

Yeah. In a way the show affirmed its final episode by having a final season and a final episode when it was time to go, not long afterward. (I think that might even have been the point in the casting of Hypatie...most sitcoms go on and on and on until they're complete mush even if they were good to start)
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Reply #94 on: February 03, 2020, 11:32:12 PM

It also closed the loop on the gag on which of the Friends would be in the Good Place.
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