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Author Topic: Phantom Dust: Misplaced Systems  (Read 8343 times)
schild
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on: March 17, 2005, 02:22:00 AM

Story Link.

The review is short simply because there's too much to say. Feel free to ask questions about anything you'd like to see elaborated upon. Also, I can't stress this enough, for $20 it's worth seeing just how this game works as an experiment. Most of the people here are fans of MMORPGs and what's presented inside of Phantom Dust is truly inspired gameplay. It makes City of Heroes - dare I say it? - look half-assed when it comes to combat.
SirBruce
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Reply #1 on: March 17, 2005, 03:55:06 AM

Doesn't seem particularly innovative to me.  Guild Wars, The Matrix Online, etc. are all working on similar ideas of power selection.  The combat may not quite me as console-twitchy-ish as what you describe, but...

Bruce
schild
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Reply #2 on: March 17, 2005, 03:59:35 AM

Doesn't seem particularly innovative to me.  Guild Wars, The Matrix Online, etc. are all working on similar ideas of power selection.  The combat may not quite me as console-twitchy-ish as what you describe, but...

But...? You should elaborate. I cut the review short so I could answer questions in a more targeted manner instead of writing a 5 page treatise on why combat in the current MMORPGs bite. One other thing - this system would not translate to a keyboard/mouse control scheme. It functions as well as it does because you use the control pad to play.
Glazius
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Reply #3 on: March 17, 2005, 04:54:42 AM

Story Link.

The review is short simply because there's too much to say. Feel free to ask questions about anything you'd like to see elaborated upon. Also, I can't stress this enough, for $20 it's worth seeing just how this game works as an experiment. Most of the people here are fans of MMORPGs and what's presented inside of Phantom Dust is truly inspired gameplay. It makes City of Heroes - dare I say it? - look half-assed when it comes to combat.
...uh.

It actually sounds like a complete ripoff of Astral Masters, which itself is a sequel to Astral Tournament.

--GF
schild
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Reply #4 on: March 17, 2005, 05:17:09 AM

It actually sounds like a complete ripoff of Astral Masters, which itself is a sequel to Astral Tournament.

With nothing but a cursory glance of the screenshots I can tell you they are nowhere near alike in implementation.
schild
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Reply #5 on: March 17, 2005, 05:30:14 AM

Let me summarize the combat system in 3 sentences:

It's like City of Heroes, but better.

Your powers are randomly drawn from a premade deck of abilities you've bought/found.

You can dodge ranged and melee actions.
dusematic
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Reply #6 on: March 17, 2005, 03:48:22 PM

Maybe this game wouldn't seem like such utter shit to me if you didn't talk it up to be the greatest game ever made.
schild
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Reply #7 on: March 17, 2005, 03:49:35 PM

Maybe this game wouldn't seem like such utter shit to me if you didn't talk it up to be the greatest game ever made.

I didn't. I said it's the greatest thing to never happen to MMORPGs even though it should.
koboshi
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Reply #8 on: March 18, 2005, 12:12:50 PM

Well I totally agree with Schild on this one, good single player game, needs more cowbell.  The game only has three levels and maybe a dozen enemies, most of which are bosses.  This might seriously piss me off in any other game but I really didn't notice after the first few missions.

 For one thing the boards are vastly different in the play styles they encourage, and they are remoldable.  If a close range fighter is getting too close for comfort on the highway stage, take out the bridge between you and him, just hope he doesn't have a levitation card in his deck.  As for the enemies it doesn't matter that they are all generic in appearance because each edition of the enemy has their own deck, each has different powers, and most of the time they are powers you don't have yet.  The powers are for the most part really different and not just N levels of the same attack types (although they do have a few close to that).  What's more, they will be adding powers and levels on Xbox live each month. Allegedly.

Oh, and Bruce, on a scale of power selection from one to ten, one being rock-paper-scissors, and ten being MTG, MxO and GW are around a three and Phantom Dust is a 6.  It is the best thing since sliced bread, but it's no sliced bread.

Final analysis, the game needs more levels, it needs more powers, it needs more players, and I still played it for nine hours in my first sitting.  This is another 20 buck game like Katamari, high concept low price. There should be nothing stopping you from picking it up.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2005, 12:31:32 PM by koboshi »

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Roac
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Reply #9 on: March 18, 2005, 02:18:52 PM

This is for XBox, which I don't have, so can't get this, so I'll stick to what looks neat for MMOGs.

Agreeing with a few points here.  I like the idea of modular skills.  Most MMOGs have gotten away from this, some more than others.  UO is the most flexible - pick anything, train it up, in whatever mix you care for.  Mx0 was mentioned, and their heirarchy works.  However, it's less flexible than UO, because Mx0 has three main branches, and it's costly to get the first buy-in.  It's somewhat similar to SWG in that regard. 

But if this is closer to MtG than to the above games, cool.  I hate hard requirements, and love that MtG lets you pack anything into your deck - choices are guided by how powers play off each other, and minor requirements (having land to pay for it, etc).  It'll lead to complaints about FoTM - but so what?  To me that means I get to pick a flavor at all.

Twitch:  Yeah, I want that for MMOGs.  Latency is the killer for it, and not sure when it's going to work well.  I get that this is a seriously cool feature for PvP, but we got that with FPS.  Latency is why they can include it, and MMOGs can't.  With a FPS, you get to pick from a lot of different servers, incase yours isn't doing well.  For a MMOG, you don't have that choice, esp. when (these days) all servers are colocated.

World-changing effects: hard for a MMOG.  If stuff is breakable, EVERYTHING would get broken the first day of uptime.  Atriarch decided to go this route, allowing players to (they say) excavate the earth and reform... well, everything.  If they make it to gold we might get to see.

Big yes to having MtG style abilities and combat style.  The other two features you keyed on, not sure they fit as well.  But then again, I can't play it to see.

-Roac
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Biobanger
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Reply #10 on: March 19, 2005, 06:27:08 AM

Twitch:  Yeah, I want that for MMOGs.  Latency is the killer for it, and not sure when it's going to work well.  I get that this is a seriously cool feature for PvP, but we got that with FPS.  Latency is why they can include it, and MMOGs can't.  With a FPS, you get to pick from a lot of different servers, incase yours isn't doing well.  For a MMOG, you don't have that choice, esp. when (these days) all servers are colocated.

I agree with you here. This is the main reason why my dream of Morrowind Online will not happen for a long long time.
Quote
World-changing effects: hard for a MMOG.  If stuff is breakable, EVERYTHING would get broken the first day of uptime.  Atriarch decided to go this route, allowing players to (they say) excavate the earth and reform... well, everything.  If they make it to gold we might get to see.

Auto Assault is having this, but it's not permanent. Somewhat temporary destruction.

When I first played Earth and Beyond, I had believed that you could dodge attacks based on the way it showed you getting hit, turned out I was wrong. Still liked the game til the content stopped and became the most boring catass game on the planet.

On a side note about MxO, you can make all the skills you want if you make sure to level up your coder abilities and decompile all the items you come across in the missions (to create tons of code bits to make the skills for free). What turned me off from it permanently is how the fighting becomes frustrating in close combat. Having some mob's friend keep shooting you while you take forever to stand up and try your pre-determined move is just stupid... no one would fight like that. I think this is where Gods and Heroes is gonna come in for me; according to them the fighting is gonna be like a "fixed" MxO close combat fight. Granted, it's easier to accomplish this in pure melee fights, but they have ranged attacks in the game, so I supposed time will tell.

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schild
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Reply #11 on: March 28, 2005, 09:37:25 AM

Quote
Phantom Dust is an easy game to recommend. Sure, the single-player campaign is a little aggravating, but that's mostly because it offers too much "blah blah blah" between the great dueling parts. Once you delve into the online experience, all will be forgiven. For $20, Phantom Dust is this year's Katamari Damacy--a legitimately excellent and singularly unique game that somehow slipped out at a budget price.

That's from Gamespot. Just to make sure you all remember - I said shit like that before they did. And they oversold it more than me. And they get paid to do my job.
Sky
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Reply #12 on: March 28, 2005, 10:20:15 AM

Quote
Sure, the single-player campaign is a little aggravating, but that's mostly because it offers too much "blah blah blah" between the great dueling parts
Yeah, I hate all that blah, blah, blah. Like when I pick up a book and there's all this shit you're supposed to read. Or all that garbage in between commercials on tv.
schild
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Reply #13 on: March 28, 2005, 10:23:17 AM

Well, as I said, the single player really is to prepare you for multiplayer. And the writing was just a cut above shit.

Basically, "blah, blah, blah" really encapsulates it. It's very much like Katamari in the respect. I mean if you really played for the wacky Japanese shit that happened in between each star-making sessions, entertainment comes very easily to you.

Gamespot, of all the sites out there, comes the closest to reality when it comes to under the radar games. Doesn't help the fact they whore out worse than IGN and make gamers look like a bunch of drooling retards. Like Lineage 2 players.
Evander
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Reply #14 on: March 29, 2005, 07:55:30 PM

I've got to say that, to me, what really makes the game shine is the balance of it.

I mean, there is no single super card that always wins.  Sure, there are annoying combos, but nothing is completely broken.

That and the way that the single player game slowly works you into the complexity of the game is beautiful.  Instead of having to learn all of the rules at once, the game actually teaches you to play, without very much annoying "tutorial".

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Xilren's Twin
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Reply #15 on: April 01, 2005, 10:55:18 AM

A sucker is me;  any game that even comes close to MtG style play deserves a try in my book; so i picked it up at lunch.  Since my cable services has gone ballistic these last few day I had to have something to play offline now that Freedom Force has finished kicking nazi butt.

Just as long as it's not too twitchy, like that stupid MtG Battlegrounds game for the xbox...gah that sucked.

But overall, I agree in that the concept of combat in todays typical mmorpg really needs to be rethought.  GW is a step in the right direction.  But a different step would be to slow things down into a much more strategic ganme...until several someones at WotC get their heads out of their asses and allow a mtg mmorpg to be made...

XIlren

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Hoax
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Reply #16 on: April 01, 2005, 01:18:45 PM

FPS in mmog's is the future.

Without FPS it will always be a catass paradise, there is no "skill" to creating characters, or managing equipment, just knowing the right people and reading enough FotM templates.

What I like in various combat systems:

EQ and its direct clones = nothing.
DAOC = heavy use of positionals and skill chains
WoW = fast pace that makes it almost seem like twitch at times
EvE = tremendously complex equipment/stat system, makes it very difficult to create templates, while ECM/ECCM and big guns can't track little fast ships makes for interesting large scale tactics
GW = MtG "deck" combat, makes synergy between your skills and those of your teammates so important
MxO = Interesting item buff system, very unique fighting styles for each tree
SB = disciplines if done better were a good idea, adding interesting invisable (to opponents) tweaks to your character

But all of these things pale in comparison to how badly I need fps combat in a mmog.  This has to be the future, to some extent or another anything that lacks FPS comes down to /played and your willingness to go FotM.  I expect the next EvE to be the first.  Its just too natural for space flight to be controlled with a joystick for this not to happen.


Anyways, if they make a pc version of this game I'll buy it.  Aiming with console controllers makes me want to kill baby jesus.

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schild
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Reply #17 on: April 01, 2005, 01:24:14 PM

Anyways, if they make a pc version of this game I'll buy it.  Aiming with console controllers makes me want to kill baby jesus.

1. Buy the Xbox version.
2. You don't aim, you lock on. But you can still dodge. It's a nifty system.
Xilren's Twin
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Reply #18 on: April 04, 2005, 06:17:44 AM

I like it.  About 30 missions in so far so I've just started assembling my own arsenals (decks) and buying/selling skills (cards) and it definitely is worth the $20.  No question it heavily draws concepts from MtG, but the game pace is much more action oriented.  Blowing the crap out of the landscape is fun.  Being able to drop concrete on your opponents head more so.

I like the positional elements.  Short explanation: there are 3 ranges (short, med and long) and your attack skills can only operate at one of the 3.  So do you want to focus on an even spread of attack skills rangewise, or concentrate on one.  Since you never know exactly what order your skills will pop during  battle, it's a tactical choice.  Not only that but there are multiple attack paths: straight bolts, arc shorts, parabolic arcs, even some that crawl along the ground.  Same concepts for defensive skills: there are frontal shields, tent type shields, even globes.  And of course they all have power/cost tradeoffs.

It's a neat little game, even if the running around and dialogue parts of the single player game are subpar.  Should be interesting online.

Xilren

"..but I'm by no means normal." - Schild
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