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f13.net  |  f13.net General Forums  |  General Discussion  |  Movies  |  Topic: Spider-Man: Homecoming 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
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Author Topic: Spider-Man: Homecoming  (Read 2555 times)
jgsugden
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Reply #105 on: July 12, 2017, 02:03:01 PM

You can't make Cap a Gulf War vet without changing his DNA. 
You can, however, do that for Punisher.  Because all that matters is his fucking family get wasted.   why so serious?
I know you're being a bit tongue in asscheek here, but: Yes, you can.  Korea, Vietnam and Gulf War can be interchanged in the Punisher origin (or Stark origin) in comics/MCU.  The  wars provide similar (enough) social elements and commentary to inform who the character is.  All three were 'reluctant wars' where the US was torn on the extent of US involvement and the reasons for the war.  As a society, we cared about the story of how much these wars damaged the soldiers in them.  

The American War for Independence, the Civil War, WW I, WW II and Vietnam all are really different, however.  The people fighting them were different, had different beliefs, and were impacted differently by the experience.  The war is a supporting character in their story.

A Captain America made out of the Gulf War might be a moral, standup, virtuous leader.  However, what he'd symbolize as the Hero of the Effort would be different.  His war was not widely seen as a virtuous war by the people of the time.  He was hunting a villain in SH, but SH wasn't Hitler.  Iraq is a postage stamp compared to the Axis.  The fate of American business interests and a few hundred thousand people were on the line in Iraq and Kuwait, at most.  WWII was a war for the fate of our World.  If Cap as we know him were introduced in the Gulf War, the people behind him would see him differently, and his legacy would be different.

Punisher went through hell in a war that is known to have damaged people.  Then his family was murdered and the war he brought back with him was turned on bad guys.  That is the Punisher.  Give that story to a WWII vet and you get a different story.  As we move further in time and revisionist efforts re-characterize how we see these wars through modern lenses, things change - but if you tell that story in the 1950s, Punisher is not an anti-hero... he is a 100% villain.  

On another note: I've seen comments that the Ned in the show is an amalgam of Ganke Lee (who is more of a Miles Morales character) and Ned Leeds - the kid that grows up and marries Betty Brant (the school reporter) and later becomes a Hobgoblin.  I'm betting we get Osborne as a college friend and that story plays out in the college years films, but Ned may also eventually get crazy and ride the glider.

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Ironwood
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Reply #106 on: July 12, 2017, 04:18:27 PM

Put down the fucking pipe.  Jesus H Christ.


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Lakov_Sanite
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Reply #107 on: July 14, 2017, 10:19:03 PM

This movie was awesome and I've been a spiderman fan since the 90's so I understand the 'issues' people will have with the changes but man....

Look, when people start picking this movie apart all I can say is "Remember when Peter erased his marriage with Mary Jane to bring his dead octogenarian aunt back from the dead by making a deal with the devil?"

Yeah, comic core tenants and continuity can go fuck themselves, this movie was a good take on spiderman.

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MediumHigh
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Reply #108 on: July 15, 2017, 06:11:05 AM

This movie was awesome and I've been a spiderman fan since the 90's so I understand the 'issues' people will have with the changes but man....

Look, when people start picking this movie apart all I can say is "Remember when Peter erased his marriage with Mary Jane to bring his dead octogenarian aunt back from the dead by making a deal with the devil?"

Yeah, comic core tenants and continuity can go fuck themselves, this movie was a good take on spiderman.

I think spiderman fans have a right to nitpick because part of being a fan is enjoying what makes spiderman spiderman (especially the elements that remain consistent across adaptations of the character we actually like). HOWEVER I can nitpick and still say they made a badass film. But comics are stupid. No one will try to defend brand new day or the clone saga.

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Merusk
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Reply #109 on: July 15, 2017, 06:31:31 AM

TIL bad storylines are the same as core character concepts.

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Lakov_Sanite
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Reply #110 on: July 15, 2017, 07:19:58 AM

TIL bad storylines are the same as core character concepts.

Home made web shooters were a core concept of scientist peter was a core concept until they become available organic and then back? What people consider core concepts can and have changed throughtout with very little exception.

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NowhereMan
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Reply #111 on: July 15, 2017, 07:22:57 AM

I need to go watch this but my take on the change is that I don't think it's enough to make the film bad or anything but it sounds like a 'streamlining' of the character. They didn't want to spend time in the film on that kind of motivational aspect and so they just cut it and left his motivation to be a hero as a gimme. I don't think that necessarily hurts this movie but it does weaken the character and removes some depth. That does change the character, it reduces story telling possibilities and I don't like it much but I can also recognise that if they're aiming to tell stories focused on Peter's relationship with Tony or his aunt matched with the normal super hero crap, that will make perfectly good movies for the MCU.

Where it risks changing the character instead of just simplifying is if they look for some in-universe replacement for that motivation. If they have Peter putting in that extra effort or taking on that unwinnable challenge to impress Stark, that's a different character to one who has taken on an ultimate sense of responsibility. I guess it could open up the door for storylines with the other MCU big brands but it's going to result in Spiderman, eventually, doing things that won't make sense for Spiderman to do.

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Ironwood
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Reply #112 on: July 15, 2017, 07:50:18 AM

It is by no means a bad movie.  It's a very good movie.  It's the best Spider Man we've had yet.  There are multiple wondrous things about it.

I can't stress that enough.

"Mr Soft Owl has Seen Some Shit." - Sun Tzu
Lakov_Sanite
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Reply #113 on: July 15, 2017, 08:45:37 AM

They do allude to uncle ben having ben murdered and it's definitely something that peter seems to anguish over.  I think people forget when tony found peter that he was already spiderman and trying to be a hero. Just because they dont mention ben or peters motivations doesnt mean they scrapped that backstory, it just wasnt in this movie.

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SurfD
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Reply #114 on: July 15, 2017, 09:12:58 AM

They do allude to uncle ben having ben murdered and it's definitely something that peter seems to anguish over.  I think people forget when tony found peter that he was already spiderman and trying to be a hero. Just because they dont mention ben or peters motivations doesnt mean they scrapped that backstory, it just wasnt in this movie.
Actually, as I mentioned a few posts earlier up, they have quite literally NEVER mentioned Ben in the MCU iteration of Spiderman.  They have hinted at a "bad thing" that may have happened that parker possibly feels responsible for failing to prevent, but uncle ben quite literally does not exist at this point from everything we can see.  All cases of Ben in the MCU are us subconsciously inserting him into the story because we have been conditioned to do so, because we just know that he belongs in that part of peter's origin story.

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Lakov_Sanite
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Reply #115 on: July 15, 2017, 09:18:39 AM

They also never once mention peters parents, kraven, harry osborne,j jonah kameson or otto octaviis and i for one and upset all these iconic characters are not in the mcu

You know for years people have said they should stop showing batmans parents dying and this is exactly what they are afraid of.  The minute a movie doesn't explicitly state something people lose their shit.

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Ironwood
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Reply #116 on: July 15, 2017, 10:42:38 AM

No.  Sorry, but No.

No-one here has said that they want to see an Old Man snuff it again.  In fact, most have specifically said to stop it.

But don't pretend it didn't happen because you didn't show it.  His absence is weird and felt.  It would be like if they DIDN'T mention he was bitten by a Spider.  Which they did.  And then made a hilarious scene out of it.  And yet when people are freaking out and people are talking about Aunt's freaking out and so on and so forth, it fucking echoes with the absence.

As I mentioned, it literally felt like Lawyers had stopped them mentioning it, so noticeable was the absence.


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Lakov_Sanite
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Reply #117 on: July 15, 2017, 12:41:31 PM

I agree the omission was almost certainly intentional but I don't think maliciously so, this was simply not that story.   I will say there was one scene in particular when peter was arguing with tony on the bridge after the boat where I thought it would be perfect to bring up ben but I really just think the director wanted to leave that for later, perhaps even a very emotional back/forth with aunt may that might have made this movie run too long.   We know the plan was for her to find out about Peter and there's a lot of good writing that is gonna come out in that conflict.

However...I never felt the omission affected the movie in that, everything peter did he did with a sense of responsibility.  Ignoring the first party, saying no to the pool party and even his own dream homecoming dance there were plenty of moments where the influence of peter's past affects his current self.  To say it didn't happen cause we didn't talk about it is kind of weird, they don't talk about uncle ben in every single spiderman comic either.

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Threash
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Reply #118 on: July 15, 2017, 01:24:00 PM

I didn't think Bens absence was neither weird nor felt.

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TheWalrus
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Reply #119 on: July 15, 2017, 02:15:56 PM

Maybe we could have a Spiderman where Ben is a ghost that offers him advice. With like, a bluish tint. We'd call him Old Ben.

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Lakov_Sanite
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Reply #120 on: July 15, 2017, 03:51:59 PM

Maybe we could have a Spiderman where Ben is a ghost that offers him advice. With like, a bluish tint. We'd call him Old Ben.

Like so?


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Furiously
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Reply #121 on: July 22, 2017, 12:18:43 AM

Michael Keaton stole the show...And really the movie is worth seeing for him alone.


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