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f13.net  |  f13.net General Forums  |  The Gaming Graveyard  |  City of Heroes / City of Villains  |  Topic: Enhancement Math - UPDATE from a devs mouth 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
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Author Topic: Enhancement Math - UPDATE from a devs mouth  (Read 3121 times)
schild
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on: April 13, 2004, 05:11:00 AM

This is from the CoH Beta Boards. I don't know if they're right. But here they are.

Quote from: Random Fanboy

Decent enough analysis.

On enhancements:

A single slotted enhancement increases the relevant effect by a fixed percentage; 10% for a Generic, 15% for a DO, 20% for a SO. Multiple enhancements of the same type stack.

So, obviously, putting a Generic Damage enhancement on a Damage Over Time power (kicking out 2-3 damage per tick) just ain't worth it; slot some bonus accuracy and endurance reducers instead. Putting a couple on your 35 point Power Blast starts to make a noticeable difference

For the record, incidentally, you really will be doing 2.2 points per tick if you do; the system keeps track, but doesn't show you the decimals. So if you put a single Generic Damage on a 5 point per tick power, you'll be doing 5.5, which is to say an extra damage point every two ticks.
Alluvian
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Reply #1 on: April 13, 2004, 10:09:56 AM

Yeah, I noticed the decimal thing with my fire rain.  Originally it did 1 damage every tick.  Then I leveled abit as I slotted it up.  Now it does about 2.3 I would say, since there is a mix of threes in with the twos.

By the authors own statements he says that the game takes into effect the fractional damage, but then says that you should not put a damage add on a dot but should on a big single damage.  If the game takes into effect the fraction (and it does) then there is no difference between adding in a damage add to a 6 tick of 5 damage power vs a 30 damage single shot power.  And since my favorite tick damage (rain of fire) hits such a big area I get more damage addition out of that than I would with my fireblast.  That said, my prefered damage add power is fireball.  Rain is mainly for dispersing enemies and nuking an unfortunate few that are held in the middle with fire rings.
Valmorian
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Reply #2 on: April 13, 2004, 11:04:17 AM

Quote from: schild
This is from the CoH Beta Boards. I don't know if they're right. But here they are.


Hmm, interesting.  I wonder if the 10% increase is for slotted enhancements that exactly match your level, and how much more effective is it for Level+1, +2, etc?

Not that I'm all THAT Concerned.  Game is damned fun.

Tankers could use a bit of tweaking though.
kaid
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Reply #3 on: April 13, 2004, 11:17:34 AM

Yes the number for the boost remains constant as long as you are considering the same kind of enhancer and it is of the same level as you. When you start adding + or ++ or the enhancer is higher than your level than it will be better than base line. And if it is less than your level than it will be a bit worse but still better than if you had nothing.


Double and more importantly single origine enhancers are really what makes noticable differances. Going from nothing or training to a SO enhancer is like night and day. The boost they give you is incredible to give you an idea after bumped to 34 and before I got any enhancers my main attack did about 50 to 70 damage on targets. With 2 SO damage boosts it was doing about 200 damage or so. And once you get SO end reducers your ability to use aura powers shoots up. At 34 I can run steam and hurricane at the same time and GAIN endurance.


Kaid
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Reply #4 on: April 13, 2004, 11:28:01 AM

Quote from: kaid
Yes the number for the boost remains constant as long as you are considering the same kind of enhancer and it is of the same level as you. When you start adding + or ++ or the enhancer is higher than your level than it will be better than base line. And if it is less than your level than it will be a bit worse but still better than if you had nothing.


Here's my concerns:

1. Damage:
Does the increase in damage from gaining a level always outstrip the decrease in damage from having an enhancer/set of enhancers degrade in performance?  If not, I could end up actually becoming a weaker damage dealer when I gain a level.

2. End Reduction:
Are END reduction costs constant?  If so, then every time I level, my powers with END Reducers cost MORE endurance, since my enhancers have all taken a step down.


Basically, do enhancers make levelling a detriment??
kaid
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Reply #5 on: April 13, 2004, 11:35:47 AM

No val you are always stronger for leveling the power is simply a smidge weaker than it would be if you had an enhancment of the proper level. The only time this is not true is if you completly outgrow you enhancement. Once your enhancement turns red you get no benefit from it and it is very noticable differance in having nothing in a slot  or a red enhancment and having any valid level appropriate enhancement.

kaid
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Reply #6 on: April 13, 2004, 11:41:28 AM

Quote from: kaid
No val you are always stronger for leveling the power is simply a smidge weaker than it would be if you had an enhancment of the proper level. The only time this is not true is if you completly outgrow you enhancement. Once your enhancement turns red you get no benefit from it and it is very noticable differance in having nothing in a slot  or a red enhancment and having any valid level appropriate enhancement.

kaid


Excellent.  That was my biggest worry, really..  

Although seeing 60-70 damage become 200 makes me wonder if someone without the proper enhancements can contribute meaningfully in combat..
kaid
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Reply #7 on: April 13, 2004, 11:53:44 AM

Well at those levels you will not be without enhancements. The only reason at all at those levels to fight without enhancements is I got bumped from 25 to 34. All my enhancements went to garbage due to it and to unlock level 34 enhancement stores you have to do a mission. Let me tell you that doing msisions with everybody going sans enhancements really is a different experiance. You need to go alot slower and be alot less cocky.

Barring bumps though what happened to us is not something you would ever see in game there just is on reason not to be constantly upgrading your enhancements with drops or bought items.

kaid
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Reply #8 on: April 13, 2004, 11:59:57 AM

Quote from: kaid
Well at those levels you will not be without enhancements. The only reason at all at those levels to fight without enhancements is I got bumped from 25 to 34. All my enhancements went to garbage due to it and to unlock level 34 enhancement stores you have to do a mission. Let me tell you that doing msisions with everybody going sans enhancements really is a different experiance. You need to go alot slower and be alot less cocky.

Barring bumps though what happened to us is not something you would ever see in game there just is on reason not to be constantly upgrading your enhancements with drops or bought items.

kaid


I can see that, but suppose someone specializes in Accuracy and End Reduction.  They're not going to see the 200 damage, obviously, but will the Accurady and End Reduction be helpful enough to overcome the handicap of only dealing 70 damage instead of 200?

Are you forced to Enhance a particular way to be competitive?  (I'm playing devil's advocate here, of course.)
kaid
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Reply #9 on: April 13, 2004, 01:44:41 PM

Its all a balancing act. Sure you may do less damage but you will be able to last longer in a fight and hit more consistantly. You will see less flashy big numbers but your endurance and damage over time is likely to be comparable.

Heck In general I slot ALOT less damage boosts than many folks do as I prefer not to miss and to be efficient. It is all part of the subtle complexity of the game. On the surface it looks like you don't have much personalization but infact there is a freak ton of possiblities.

Its all a matter of tweaking your powers and the number of slots you allocate to powers to fit your play style. Each power has from 3 to as many as 6 or 7 possible different enhancements it can take so you will see a wide variety of perforance for the same skills.

I know people who with my same attacks do alot more damage than me.  For myself I go heavily into end reduction with my storm/psychic due to all my aura powers. I have a constant high level of end usage and if my attacks are not very efficient then I simply will not be able to attack much.

I have seen people put 6 slots of SO damage upgrades into their power. I cannot come anywhere near their max damage. I also know that if they tried that with my power set they would go out of endurance and be useless in about 10 seconds.

Also enh loadouts which work great for sprint killing in solo play may not be ideal for group play. So what a soloist can do in short bursts and what group heavy folks can do over long periods is often quite different.


kaid
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Reply #10 on: April 13, 2004, 02:21:06 PM

Something I've noticed is that some powers have a random proc effect, and I'm curious about how the proc is determined.  Does the frequency go up by level?  Can I slot anything into the power to increase it?

For example, my Mace Tanker's attacks have a small chance to disorient the enemy, but it's so infrequent and short lived, it's not really useful.  I know I can slot "enhance disorient duration" enhancers into it.  Is there any enhancer I can use to increase the frequency of the disorient firing, though?
kaid
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Reply #11 on: April 13, 2004, 02:34:30 PM

On the special proc stuff there is no enhancer to make them happen more often. But you can make the effect last longer if it allows enhancements for its special.

The rate the special goes off depends on the power some powers can do it once in a while others usually the higher level ones do it consistantly. Many of these specials are very powerful especially the mace and energy melee disorients if they upped the proc rate to much it would make many fights trivial.

I have seen the bonking mace tanks can do and disorient in game works like a hold so it is SUPER strong ability. Basically the mob walks like a drunk and you can beat the hell out of it and it won't respond until the effect wears off. If you could up the proc rate there is a stong chance you could chain disorient which would make fights a joke.

Kaid
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Reply #12 on: April 13, 2004, 03:02:57 PM

Quote
Barring bumps though what happened to us is not something you would ever see in game there just is on reason not to be constantly upgrading your enhancements with drops or bought items.


There is one time it would happen consistently, and that is when you sidekick a lower level.  Granted he still would be given credit for having level appropriate enhancements, just less of them and of less useful types (tutorial vs double origin lets say).  In that case maybe the buffed youngster is doing 100 when the veteran is doing 200.  100 is still a noticable addition to the combat.  It is no insignificant, and you would never expect the sidekick to be an equal of the person who actually leveled up naturally.  Just being in the same ballpark is an amazing feat of the sidekick system.


Regarding enhancement choices it really depends.  I have a skill called fireblast that missed a lot.  It pissed me off.  You waste the endurance and have to wait for it to cycle again.  This can get you killed.  I chose to socket that up with two 10++ accuracy enhancements so I can hit things my level something like 95% of the time and higher level boss mobs enough to feel useful.

I have a fire ring ability that does some damage over time and holds a mob.  This is lifesaver for me as a blaster.  I cannot take melee damage, it rips me up real bad.  I NEED this power to hit when I use it.  Again, linked to two accuracy enhancements.  Since it comes back quickly I am okay if it misses once on occasion as I can flee and re-apply it.  But now it hits enough that I can hold a few people in place and then do fire rain or a few fireballs.

My fireball ability started off pretty accurate.  It just came back slow and didn't really compare to fire blast in terms of damage.  So I threw 3 10++ damages into it and 10++ recycle time reducer.  Now when I hasten myself I can fire a fireball, then fire rain, and fireball is coming back about one second after the rain animation for another blast at the still pretty clustered opponents.  You can see here why I threw a lot into damage.  Fireball is my main method of shock and awe damage.  If I am fighting minions a level below me or so, the second fireball will kill about 4-5 of them depending on how clustered they are.  Those that survive I clean up with fireblast.  Another reason I wanted this to be ACCURATE.  I use it to snipe and clean out the weakest targets, since an almost dead minion does just as much damage as a healty one.  Plus it recycles fast enough that I can rapid fire a fireblast-fireball-fireblast to kill a minion about my level.  I plan on socketing it with a damage or two as well next level.
schild
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Reply #13 on: April 14, 2004, 03:45:42 AM

Quote from: Geko - Cryptic Studios Game Designer

No, i am sorry, that would be too over powered for a Controller.

AoE Mez powers (except AoE Immobilize powers) have a 60% Base accuracy. Each target i the affected area is calculated individually, so of there are 10 targets in the area, 6, on average, will be affected. AoE Immobilize powers ACC is 67.5%.

Adding ACC Enahncements can bring you accuracy up VERY high. IT will give you all the ACC you will ever need. 1 Generid training ACC Enahncement will increase the ACC to 65%. 3 Dual origin will increase your ACC to 91%. 6 Single origin ACC Enahncements will increase the power to 179% (being over 100% increased your chance to hit higher level foes). Yes you will have to sacrafice other enhancements, but that is the point.


I think we can use the math in here to understand how it all works. Start at 60%. 1 Generic Accuracy ups it 5%. Let's assume this works across the board. So if you have an attack that regularly hits for 20, a generic Damage, level 1 ups it 5%. Now I'm still interested in how a level 10++ generic enhancement ups it.

I think your hero's level dictate what level the enhancement has to be. So at level 8 when you should be using level 10-12 enhancements a level 1 will no longer give you 5%. Once you update the level of the enhancement to 10 you'll get it back. 10++ would be +15% from levels 8-12. Once you hit level 12 you have to update the enhancement to level 13-17. Of course, I could be completely wrong...
tar
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Reply #14 on: April 14, 2004, 05:40:34 AM

I thought you could only use enhancements that were your level +/-3? So a lvl 8 char would be able to use lvl 5-11 enhancements.

I think the bonus an enchancement gives is relative to the hero's level. So if you're lvl 8, and have a lvl 11 enhancement (which could be a straight 11, a 10+ or a 9++) it gives bonus 'X'.

If you then level up to 9, the bonus the 11enh gives drops one notch. If it's an 11 or a 10+, you could upgrade it a point to 11+/10++. If it was a 9++, you'd have to replace it.

So basically it doesn't matter what absolute level the enchancement is, just what it is relative to your level.
kaid
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Reply #15 on: April 14, 2004, 09:33:13 AM

Exactally tar its not the number on the enhancer that is indicating power it is just indicating where it is in releation to your level.  One thing to note though as you go up in level your power caps raise and the enhancers do start giving you more bang for the relative buck. But it is still just mainly an issue of what the level of the enhancer is relative to your level.

The only really big thing to look for is double and single origin enhancers. Any double origin enhancer is always better than a training enhancer even if the training is 3 levels higher than it. Any single origin is always better than a double origin even if the double is 3 levels higher.


Kaid
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Reply #16 on: April 14, 2004, 12:25:57 PM

Quote from: schild
Quote from: Geko - Cryptic Studios Game Designer

Adding ACC Enahncements can bring you accuracy up VERY high. IT will give you all the ACC you will ever need. 1 Generid training ACC Enahncement will increase the ACC to 65%. 3 Dual origin will increase your ACC to 91%. 6 Single origin ACC Enahncements will increase the power to 179% (being over 100% increased your chance to hit higher level foes). Yes you will have to sacrafice other enhancements, but that is the point.


I think we can use the math in here to understand how it all works. Start at 60%. 1 Generic Accuracy ups it 5%. Let's assume this works across the board. So if you have an attack that regularly hits for 20, a generic Damage, level 1 ups it 5%. Now I'm still interested in how a level 10++ generic enhancement ups it.


Your math is FUBAR.  An increase from 60% acc to 65% acc is almost but not quite a 10% increase in total accuracy (actually a touch more then 9.2%).

To get to 91% from 60% with three identical enhancments is an increase of just a smidge over 20% per enhancement (its a actually 21.9% per enh).

To get to 179% from 60% with 6 enhancers is actually only  a 33% increase per enhancer.

Now did the dev pull these numbers out of his ass or are they ballpark figures or are they solid?  Does the formula change depending on how many enh you have slotted or is there a cap on max enhancement based on level?  There is alot of room for variation depending on how things are implemented.

"You have all recieved youre last warning. I am in the process of currently tracking all of youre ips and pinging your home adressess. you should not have commencemed a war with me" - Aaron Rayburn
schild
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Reply #17 on: April 14, 2004, 01:18:43 PM

Math is hard.
HaemishM
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Prevent all damage that would be dealt to you and other troops you control.


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Reply #18 on: April 14, 2004, 01:40:09 PM

And unfair to some.

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